2handed Paladin help (first time player)

[SuwinTzi]

I've made a pally to run in a dungeon crawl being set up by a friend, and as I was going through build ideas (first time playing any kind of pen and paper RPG), I saw many sites/guides recommending power attack on a 2 handed paladin but made no mention of vital strike.

Reading up the description of Vital strike makes it look fairly attractive, and it doesn't suffer from a -1 attack that Power attack does. Can anyone tell me why I should not get Vital Strike once I can?

And if so, can I use the two together?

Paladin is using Falchion with weapon focus.

[avr]

You need the ability to make 2+ attacks but you only get the base weapon damage doubled - the strength, smite, power attack if you have it, enhancement bonus etc. apply only once. Actually making 2+ attacks is better.

You can't perform it on a charge which takes out one of the niche cases where it might be useful. It invites you to waste more feats on it when your BAB reaches +11 and +16.

Power Attack OTOH is useable in many situations and the damage bonus is almost always worth the cost - write it in to your default attack/damage.

[RedMage125]

Is it weird that after reading the title to this thread, I imagined someone wielding a Paladin 2-handed?

Maybe if it was a halfling paladin?

Makes me want to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (humanoid) for my next barbarian.

[SuwinTzi]

Thanks avr

@RedMage125

Somewhat related, one of the party members IRL was complaining about how she's "too big". I asked her what her weight, both IRL and in game was. 95lbs and 110lbs respectively. I then told her, that I can pick her up and throw her like a javelin, IRL and game. Cue another party member suggesting I do that in game against the goblins we were fighting (she's a cleric).

[Snowbluff]

Vital Strike isn't really good:
Power Attack works on ALL of your melee attacks. With haste, you get another attack. At level 6, you get another attack.

Smiting means you want to be making more attacks. Critting with a falchion is better with more attacks.

The bonus scales with level. 3 damage every 4 levels. At level 6, it's 6 damage.

With a falchion, you get +5 damage. For one attack. It's not terrible, but power attack is already giving 6 damage that can crit.You are wielding a crit-happy falchion, but you are looking at a feat with NO crit synergy.

You can't charge with vital strike. Sure, Power Attack is -2 to attack at level 6, but you can charge with it for +2 to cancel out the penalty.



Maybe if it was a halfling paladin?


On a side note, Halfling paladins rock. Level 1, get a lance, power attack, and a pony. Proceed to wreck your foes. Works in 3.5 and PF. :smallbiggrin:

[grarrrg]

Vital Strike is good in theory "get all of your attacks at your highest Bab for only a Standard Action! Now you can Move AND Full Attack in the same round!"

In practice, you only get to add your Weapon Damage for each of those other attacks. Your STR only counts once. Power Attack only counts once. Any other modifiers only count once (i.e. Smite/Sneak Attack/etc...).

It is generally considered a "trap" feat, with the exception of a few oddly specific builds.

Power Attack is better, as it gives you the option to to do more damage most of the time, with the Damage bonus making up for the loss of accuracy.

And yes, you can use the two together, but you still only apply the Power Attack damage once.


Is it weird that after reading the title to this thread, I imagined someone wielding a Paladin 2-handed?

Maybe if it was a halfling paladin?

Makes me want to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (humanoid) for my next barbarian.

Body Bludgeon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/body-bludgeon-ex), using your friends as weapons since 2011.

[RedMage125]

On a side note, Halfling paladins rock. Level 1, get a lance, power attack, and a pony. Proceed to wreck your foes. Works in 3.5 and PF. :smallbiggrin:

I actually had a concept for a kobold paladin, worshipped Bahamut. Celestial Dire Weasel mount.

Name was Tik-Snak, the Small and Annoying.

Personality was like Minsc from Baldur's Gate.

Imagine a high-pitch voice crying "Butt-kicking...for Goodness!"

[Snowbluff]

In other news, Weapon Focus is another 'meh' feat unless you are going for Shatter Defenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final) and Cornugon Smash. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat)

In 4e, bonuses to-hit like that are good. In PF/3.5, raw damage is the better choice.

EDIT: Kobold Paladin? Nice. I think the halfling is better for having better str (wow), and possible bonus feat.

[JusticeZero]

Right;the issue is that in practice, the base weapon damage becomes minor compared to all the stuff you are stacking onto each swing. Just avoid it. I rule it to work with any standard action attack without limitations and give the tree as a single feat, and still cdon't see it as great.

[Pex]

Many people will say Vital Strike is terrible. I disagree but do advise it is not as good as it first looks but still alright. Vital Strike shouldn't be used on every attack you ever make, but that doesn't make it a terrible feat. While some feats can be used every time all the time, a feat is not required to be used every time all the time to be a good/nice feat to have. When you can make multiple attacks, do so. Don't use Vital Strike. It is true indeed you are better off doing the multiple attacks than using Vital Strike. However, when you are only going to make one attack anyway using Vital Strike is fine. Extra damage is extra damage. Vital Strike doesn't give you the damage you could have had on a full attack, but when you're only getting that one attack anyway it gets you partly there. Don't take Vital Strike if you're an archer or using two weapons. Don't take it if your base weapon damage is d6 or less. Maybe take it if your base weapon damage is d8. It's fine to take it if your base weapon damage is d10 or more.

As for Power Attack, if you are going to use a two-handed weapon, take it. No ifs. No buts. Take it. That extra damage means a lot. +3 is huge at low level and the increased damage just gets better as the levels progress. The penalty to hit is meaningless for a full BAB class. If it bothers you that much you can easily mitigate it. Flank for +2. Inspire Courage from the Bard starts at +1. Cleric casts Bless for +1. As a Paladin, Smite Evil for +Charisma modifier to hit. If you're even more bothered, take Furious Focus feat. That takes away the penalty to hit altogether for your first attack. You still have it for later attacks in the round you make and AoOs you do, but you'll have peace of mind of no penalty to hit on that first attack for all the juicy damage, especially on a charge.

If for whatever reason you can only have Power Attack or Vital Strike, take Power Attack. You will get more use out of it. You can always use it for every attack you make. As to whether to take both, having Power Attack is irrelevant to whether you should take Vital Strike. You can use both together, but the worth of Vital Strike for you and your character only matters for Vital Strike's sake as above.

[deuxhero]

2handed Paladin is hard to screw up. Vital Strike however, is one of those ways.

If you are using heavy armor, taking Lunge and using reach weapon is superior in pretty much every way, as you can full attack, not standard attack with some pitiful extra damage die, anyone a single move (20 feet) could let you hit

[SuwinTzi]

Thanks for all the responses. On paper, Vital Strike seemed, really, really worth it that's why.

While I still have everyone's attention (novelty for me, really) any other recommended feats for my pally? Also, I thought of taking Oath of Vengeance archetype would be cool, since I'd get an extra smite, and it gives me some interesting spells lvl 1 - 4.

[deuxhero]

Oath of Vengence is great. Trade an ability you will never use and nerf an ability you will never use for more smites.

[Snowbluff]

While I still have everyone's attention (novelty for me, really) any other recommended feats for my pally? Also, I thought of taking Oath of Vengeance archetype would be cool, since I'd get an extra smite, and it gives me some interesting spells lvl 1 - 4.


In other news, Weapon Focus is another 'meh' feat unless you are going for Shatter Defenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final) and Cornugon Smash. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat)

Since you have Weapon Focus, anyway.

Keep in mind that that is SPELL level 1-4. Oath of Vengeance is pretty good, though.


Thanks for all the responses. On paper, Vital Strike seemed, really, really worth it that's why.
Well, not on paper... :smallwink:

[T.G. Oskar]

Must-Have Feats: Power Attack (adds great damage, and it's better when wielding a two-hander), Furious Focus (your first attack ignores the PA penalty to attack rolls)

Recommended Feats: Lunge (for distance), Cleave + Great Cleave (attack many opponents at once)

Recommended Feats if you wish to spend points in Intimidate: Cornugon Smash (make an Intimidate check to demoralize opponent with each hit), Dreadful Carnage (requires Furious Focus; when you drop a target, you can demoralize opponents in a 30-ft. radius)

As a Two-Hander, you can use Bull Rush effectively. Improved Bull Rush and Greater Bull Rush are key to use this combat maneuver better. With Quick Bull Rush, you can make a bull rush as part of a full attack by sacrificing the attack with the highest attack bonus. Ask your GM on how it rules Bull Rush, since the rules state that you can move with your target if you still have movement left; if you make a full attack and don't make a 5-ft. step, you probably can move with your target as you technically haven't moved during the round, but your GM will determine how it adjudicates that. Hope for the GM to rule favorably for you, since you can use Bull Rush to move people in a straight line, potentially towards other allies (and with Greater Bull Rush, the movement provokes attacks of opportunity, so your allies can take advantage).

A feat almost every full-BAB class (like the Paladin) should have is Dazing Assault. This feat reduces your attack bonus by 5, but if you succeed on the attack, the target has a chance to be dazed for 1 round. Being dazed means the target cannot act, so using this feat every round means the enemy won't be capable of moving, ever! Almost no enemies are immune to daze, and while it's a Fortitude save (most enemies have high Fortitude saves), the saving throw DC is pretty high (10 + your base attack bonus; you don't apply the penalty to this DC). Plan with your friends in order to provide reductions to Fortitude saves, since this way you can keep an enemy occupied.

As for Oath of Vengeance: if you can choose it, go ahead. The spells are great (Wrath in particular is an awesome spell that grants a morale bonus to damage and eventually Improved Critical with your weapon), and the extra marks (what Paizo calls "smites"; you'll have to excuse me if I use another term) means you can deal huge amounts of damage to evil creatures without worrying about limited uses. Note that the alteration to the Code actually relaxes it, which is also great.

[Snowbluff]

Meh, Furious Focus is overrated. Once. On 1 attack you get to ignore your penalty. On your attack that already has the highest chance to hit, you ignore your penalty.

Cleave is meh. The same deal with Dreadful Carnage. If you fighting multiple guys, they are probably weaker than you, and you don't need the bonus. Full Attacks can cover Cleave's role, and conventional knowledge states that moving up and hitting a dude once is bad because they will full attack you in response.

Dazing Assault is good, though. It helps get around the "getting hit back" problem. Anything you are "smiting" (wrong use of the word, Paizo) shouldn't have an easy time acting.

[JusticeZero]

Cleave is actually just a feat tax for Great Cleave. Which is a bit more useful for room sweeping minions.

[Snowbluff]

There are better things to do with your feats. Minions aren't a viable threat, and you shouldn't be building to fight them.

[SuwinTzi]

Well I took Weapon focus for that +1 to attack mostly, didn't think of what I could build it into. Cornugon smash sounds good, fewer pre-req than Shatter Defenses, and I'll probably end up with ranks in Intimidate (fluff reasons).

I was planning on taking Improved Critical, Critical focus and Stunning crit once I can get them, so I'm not sure about Dazing Assault...

I did want cleave particularly for fluff and crunch reasons; I'd been teaching my DM on tactics because we both play Planetside 2, and I uh....accidentally gave him ideas by linking him to Tucker's Kobolds article on 1d4chan.org...

[RedMage125]

...And now I want to Cleave minions while wielding a halfling paladin. If he's in full-plate he should do decent damage, right? Weighs about 5 or 6 times as mush as a greatsword...

[Snowbluff]

Well I took Weapon focus for that +1 to attack mostly, didn't think of what I could build it into. Cornugon smash sounds good, fewer pre-req than Shatter Defenses, and I'll probably end up with ranks in Intimidate (fluff reasons).

*shakes head* Only take shatter defenses if you have Cornugon Smash. It give you free flat-footed versus the target.

[T.G. Oskar]

Meh, Furious Focus is overrated. Once. On 1 attack you get to ignore your penalty. On your attack that already has the highest chance to hit, you ignore your penalty.

Cleave is meh. The same deal with Dreadful Carnage. If you fighting multiple guys, they are probably weaker than you, and you don't need the bonus. Full Attacks can cover Cleave's role, and conventional knowledge states that moving up and hitting a dude once is bad because they will full attack you in response.

Dazing Assault is good, though. It helps get around the "getting hit back" problem. Anything you are "smiting" (wrong use of the word, Paizo) shouldn't have an easy time acting.

That depends, considering PA in Pathfinder is all or nothing. Could have been better if you had the flexibility to choose which of the attacks to apply the penalty to, but beggars can't be choosers...

Dreadful Carnage is great if you can 1-shot or 2-shot the character, and chances are a Two-Hander will have that requirement covered. While demoralizing via Intimidate doesn't allow you to escalate the fear effect, causing a wide shaken effect can still work wonders for allies who depend on spells or abilities with save DCs, since it hinders the opponent's chances of success. Particularly good if you can end up escalating the penalties (shaken -> sickened -> any curse that lowers saves).

As for Cleave...again, Two-Handers can do a nice work with the feat, since the damage should be enough to one-shot or heavily damage more than one opponent. Technically you can combine Cleave with Dazing Assault and Power Attack in order to daze more than one opponent at once with the higher attack bonus, rather than hope that the second attack hits (and with a -11 penalty, you better have a massive attack bonus, but when you land the hit, it's definitely worthwhile).


...And now I want to Cleave minions while wielding a halfling paladin. If he's in full-plate he should do decent damage, right? Weighs about 5 or 6 times as mush as a greatsword...

I'll just set this equation: Halfling + Paladin + Strength over 14 + Greatsword + Power Attack + Risky Striker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/risky-striker-combat-halfling).

Trust me, that Halfling Paladin will outdamage the damage you'd do by swinging him.


Well I took Weapon focus for that +1 to attack mostly, didn't think of what I could build it into. Cornugon smash sounds good, fewer pre-req than Shatter Defenses, and I'll probably end up with ranks in Intimidate (fluff reasons).

I was planning on taking Improved Critical, Critical focus and Stunning crit once I can get them, so I'm not sure about Dazing Assault...

I did want cleave particularly for fluff and crunch reasons; I'd been teaching my DM on tactics because we both play Planetside 2, and I uh....accidentally gave him ideas by linking him to Tucker's Kobolds article on 1d4chan.org...

If you're gonna get an attack bonus, make sure it's meaningful. A +1 to attack rolls really doesn't help unless you're constantly in situations where a +1 to attack makes a difference...which is rarely.

I rarely recommend Improved Critical. It only works with ONE weapon, you have the Keen enhancement if your favorite weapon is a slashing or piercing weapon (Greatswords and Falchions are slashing, so they qualify), and a feat slot is more important for you than making your weapon(s) slightly more expensive. Also, you have a way to get Improved Critical via spells, but you need to take the Oath of Vengeance archetype or spend a feat slot in Unsanctioned Knowledge (a feat that expands the Paladin's spell list by adding 1 spell of each level; it requires Int 13 which you already have). The Wrath (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wrath) spell grants a heavy morale bonus to attack and damage rolls, grants Improved Critical to the weapon you wield at CL 12th (in your case, at 15th level) and is a 1st level spell, so you'll get a lot of mileage out of it.

Stunning Critical is a great feat, but never underestimate Dazing Assault. Think about it in this way: you activate Dazing Assault, and you get a chance to daze the opponent. If the attack happens to be a critical hit, you still can confirm the spell reliably (because of Critical Focus) and you can stun the opponent instead of dazing it. However, if the opponent is immune to stun (most undead, constructs and other creatures are immune), you can still attempt to daze the opponent (which virtually no creature can resist), so you have two ways to disable your opponent. Note, also, that Stunning Critical requires ANOTHER feat (Staggering Critical) and that it would be your last feat overall, so while a great feat, it's a bit TOO intensive for you. Dazing Assault only requires Power Attack (which you most likely already have) and is acquired earlier (by 11th level), so it's fairly good.

[RedMage125]

I'll just set this equation: Halfling + Paladin + Strength over 14 + Greatsword + Power Attack + Risky Striker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/risky-striker-combat-halfling).

Trust me, that Halfling Paladin will outdamage the damage you'd do by swinging him.

Would he get some extra damage by the momentum from me swinging him? You know, if he coulld time his attacks? :smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

That depends, considering PA in Pathfinder is all or nothing. Could have been better if you had the flexibility to choose which of the attacks to apply the penalty to, but beggars can't be choosers...
-5 is the worse possible penalty. If you aren't able to hit, you have more problems than one. Shatter Defenses can get more ground, depending on the enemy, especially when you consider that your iterative attacks are much more likely to miss. Weapon Focus is a better feat at most levels, which is bad news.

If this was 3.5, it may be considered a decent feat, since the penalties and returned are much higher.

Dreadful Carnage is great if you can 1-shot or 2-shot the character, and chances are a Two-Hander will have that requirement covered. While demoralizing via Intimidate doesn't allow you to escalate the fear effect, causing a wide shaken effect can still work wonders for allies who depend on spells or abilities with save DCs, since it hinders the opponent's chances of success. Particularly good if you can end up escalating the penalties (shaken -> sickened -> any curse that lowers saves).
It's much weaker against enemies you have to hit more than once. Cornugon Smash is strictly better and has easier prerequisites.


I'll just set this equation: Halfling + Paladin + Strength over 14 + Greatsword + Power Attack + Risky Striker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/risky-striker-combat-halfling).

Trust me, that Halfling Paladin will outdamage the damage you'd do by swinging him.


I'm medium sized. Risky Striker doesn't work. :smalltongue:

[SuwinTzi]

There's multiple good arguments for all the feats being discussed here, I wish I could take them all. Definite pass on Improved Crit because of Wrath, if only they stack (which would be so broken...a 12-20 Crit?), just need to make sure I have spell components, Dazing Assault is a go for sure, only ones left to decide is between Shatter Defense, Cornugon Smash, Dreadful Carnage. But Dazzling Display does the same as Dreadful Carnage, just not automatically, and is a preque for Shatter Defense. Cornugon Smash also only affects what I'm attacking, versus every creature in a radius...

Edit: Does Dazzling Display prevent me from making more than one attack from a Full Attack?

Also Power Attack + Great Cleave + Dazzling Display/Cornugon Smash + Dazing Assault = massive crowd control?

Played through and was almost killed by skeletons at lvl 1. Found myself facing 3 of 5 skeletons at once while the cleric and wizard were hiding (CLERIC! YOU HAVE MORE AC AND HP THAN ME! Y U HIDING?! "Cuz I'm a Princess!").

Cleave would've helped so much. Had terrible, terrible attack rolls; out of 9 rolls to attack I only made one of them. Reduced to 4hp by the 2nd round of attack, healed back up to 9hp, 4th round of attack, reduced to 1hp and still had 3 skels in front of me ("But...but I only have 1hp...") Rest of party is lvl 2 Cleric, lvl 1 Samurai, lvl1 Ninja, lvl1 Illusion Wizard.

Though did have an interesting moment where to clear a pit of goblins, I took out a bag of flour, shook it in a fine dust down the hole, and had one of the other members ignite it to cause a dust explosion. GM ruled we took out 35 goblins.

[JusticeZero]

.....

Send us your Cleric for repairs. She is not working as intended.. =D

Sure "I'm a Pretty Princess" explains a bit, but by design, she should be able to make Meridia envious.

[I3igAl]

Edit: Does Dazzling Display prevent me from making more than one attack from a Full Attack?

Also Power Attack + Great Cleave + Dazzling Display/Cornugon Smash + Dazing Assault = massive crowd control?

[...]

Yes you cannot attack(or do anything else for that matter) while using Dazzling Display.

The build above would work better with a reach weapon, but you probably won't be allowed to retrain your Weapon Focus. It is still a strong build though.

Other Feats that are awesome on a Paladin would be: Fey Foundling(insane increase for your LoH, if you went that route Extra Loh and Greater Mercy are worth it), Eldritch Heritage(especially Orc if you don't mind the flavour), Unsanctioned Knowledge


However you don't need the perfect build, especially not as a Paladin. Your class features and spells give you more than enough to handle most adventures.

[SuwinTzi]

Well DM says that since we're still kinda experimenting out, he'll let me retrain Weapon Focus into something else if I want to.

Currently lvl 3, human. Stat and skill spread as follows:
Str 18 dex 12 con 15 int 10 wis 7 cha 16
Diplomacy rank 3
Perception rank 3
Sense motive 2
Bluff 1
Intimidate 1
Climb 1
Swim 1

Falchion and Splint mail.

Oath of Vengeance archetype

Power attack and Cleave feats, not sure where to reinvest if Weapon focus is only good for Dazzling -> Sunder


Also, our cleric decided to summon an eagle to attack the skeleton instead of bashing with her mace, because she wanted to see what it did. *facepalm*

Meanwhile...

I've got 1 hp, the samurai is still 40ft away, the ninja is failing his sneak attacks ("What kind of a ninja fails his sneak attacks?" "What kind of a paladin gets owned by skeletons?" "....") and the illusion mage is missing his attacks with a crossbow.

[T.G. Oskar]

The build above would work better with a reach weapon, but you probably won't be allowed to retrain your Weapon Focus. It is still a strong build though.

If the OP has access to the Righteous armor enhancement (fun fact: you can stack Righteous and Vigilant for two uses of Righteous Might per day), it'll have reach with any weapon. Agree that it's a strong build, though.


Other Feats that are awesome on a Paladin would be: Fey Foundling(insane increase for your LoH, if you went that route Extra Loh and Greater Mercy are worth it), Eldritch Heritage(especially Orc if you don't mind the flavour), Unsanctioned Knowledge

Too late for Fey Foundling: it's a 1st-level feat. It's a great 1st-level feat, though, but it might lose its effectiveness at 20th level depending on how the GM rules things out. Greater Mercy isn't that great, though. Sure, you can heal 1d6+2 points of additional damage, but that's not exactly impressive for a feat slot. Eldritch Heritage requires Skill Focus, so that's two feats for a very specific benefit (the 1st level bloodline power). Unsanctioned Knowledge was already recommended (and the OP also mentioned Oath of Vengeance), which is why the Wrath spell is mentioned; both the feat and the Oath grant access to the spell.


However you don't need the perfect build, especially not as a Paladin. Your class features and spells give you more than enough to handle most adventures.

I stand to differ.

"Most" adventures involve fighting someone who's evil. Before 10th level, your uses of the mark (aka the "smite") are limited, and if going for the general conception of 4 battles/day, that means you can't trust in using the mark at all moments (barring Oath of Vengeance, but that means less uses of Lay on Hands). Without that, you're mostly limited to self-healing through LoH and your fighting skills; you start with very few spells around, so you'll mostly rely on your divine bond and your fighting skill. If you choose the weapon bond, then probably that can work; with the mount, you're a bit more limited.

Consider the situation the OP mentioned recently. If the OP should "handle most adventures" well enough, the OP's character should have handled 3 out of 5 skeletons reliably, but that wasn't the case; in fact, the OP's party didn't help that much (I assume the Cleric used Channel Positive Energy to heal the Paladin?). That wasn't the GM being tough on the party (Skeletons are usually typical 1st level mooks, and it was one mook per party member), and even with the bad rolls from part of the OP, the party could have contributed a little bit more: the Cleric and the Samurai in particular, though I suppose the Samurai was handling the other two skeletons (also, what was the Ninja doing? Undead are no longer immune to Sneak Attack, so I presume the Ninja could have flanked and beaten them faster...) This was a situation where, if the Paladin could handle most adventures reliably and didn't depend too much on its build and its choice of feats, this shouldn't have been a problem...but it was. What about later, when facing those things the Paladin can't handle, and if the party remains the same? That's why a good build is important; it helps to cover the weaknesses within a class for when the party is disabled to work. It will take a bit of time for the OP's Paladin to gain its first spells, and not all spells are the best to set on slots: Divine Favor is great, but not so much Cure Light Wounds (the latter is great on a wand, though). Choosing the right spells for the right occasion is also part of the build, and if a feat allows you to cover for a specific spell (or viceversa; see how the Wrath spell eventually covers for the keen weapon quality and Improved Critical), then the character improves as a whole because it has more options to cover for a greater amount of situations, which helps the party as a whole.

In short: the class may be better in some parts than its 3.5 counterpart, but that's no excuse for making a crummy build. OP did well in asking, and thus in learning how to play (it seems the entire group, not just the OP, is a bunch of first-timers).

[SuwinTzi]

If the OP has access to the Righteous armor enhancement (fun fact: you can stack Righteous and Vigilant for two uses of Righteous Might per day), it'll have reach with any weapon. Agree that it's a strong build, though.

...

In short: the class may be better in some parts than its 3.5 counterpart, but that's no excuse for making a crummy build. OP did well in asking, and thus in learning how to play (it seems the entire group, not just the OP, is a bunch of first-timers).

Yes, we are all a bunch of newbies, DM only has a campaign and test runs under his belt, but everyone has played with each other before a few sessions. I'm the only one jumping in with no prior experience before, but I'm genre-savvy enough (let others check ceilings for traps, check chests for magic effects and traps before opening...) to get by. It is a group thing though; at one point, I was going to ask our cleric to check for magical effects on a chest, when our samurai just runs up and touches it. Chest start heating up and at this point I'm telling the cleric to create some water over it to put it out, but...there was 100 gold inside but half got melted into nuggets >.>

The build I'm looking for, is something that can work in groups but operate solo too. Fluff wise I'd like my build to be able to operate solo (fluff has paladins acting more like MiB or Inquisitors from WH40k), and it does feel that crunch wise I'm going to have to go into the thick of it battle when it comes up and knock down as many mobs as I could.

[Pex]

Greater Mercy feat is nice to have. When you use Lay On Hands on someone who doesn't have a condition your mercies remove, it heals an extra d6. The idea is to use it on yourself since you can Lay Hands on yourself as a swift action. It keeps you in the fight a bit longer. Toughness feat and favored class bonus to hit points also help. In addition, a spell you'd want to prepare is Hero's Defiance. When you reach 0 or less hit points, as an immediate action you cast the spell though you need a Lay On Hands use available. You expend a Lay On Hands to heal yourself with an extra d6 from the spell. Combine that with Greater Mercy, you're not going down easily.

[grarrrg]

a spell you'd want to prepare is Hero's Defiance. When you reach 0 or less hit points, as an immediate action you cast the spell though you need a Lay On Hands use available. You expend a Lay On Hands to heal yourself with an extra d6 from the spell. Combine that with Greater Mercy, you're not going down easily.

No, the REAL use of Hero's Defiance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hero-s-defiance) is messing with your DM, using the most literal interpretation possible:

If this healing brings your hit point total above 0 hit points, you do not fall...

Paladin: I kill the defenseless villager that I am sworn to protect and stuff!
DM: That is SUCH an evil act, you fa-
Paladin: Hero's Defiance!
DM: :smallfrown:

[SuwinTzi]

I was wondering if I should take the favored class bonus into skills, since I'm not going to get much of that o.o

And does Dazing Assault work together with cleave and cleave+?

Wrote my Code of Conduct in a way to guard against paladin hating DMs. But I would try that

[Pex]

I was wondering if I should take the favored class bonus into skills, since I'm not going to get much of that o.o

And does Dazing Assault work together with cleave and cleave+?

Wrote my Code of Conduct in a way to guard against paladin hating DMs. But I would try that

Take the hit points. Without a shield you will be hit more often. You need the hit points. As a paladin, you will be wanting to face the toughest opponents as you smite them. They hit back. You need the hit points. DM dependent, but particular bad guys may target you because you're a paladin, such as devils, demons, and intelligent BBEG undead. You need the hit points. Paladins are not inherently dumb and perfectly capable and permitted to have various skills, but your focus is on combat. Diplomacy, Perception, Ride maybe, Knowledge Religion, you're good to go. Other party members can handle the skills. You need the hit points. Play a human if you still need some extra skill points. If you can squeeze in a 12 Intelligence great. If not, no big deal. You need the hit points.

[SuwinTzi]

That'd really, really depend on what my DM is planning, and the more we talk, the more and more I'm convincing him that he should be coming with ways to target me first in combat. Told him that since my paladin projects an aura of "good" based on his level...undead that are mindless would prefer to hit me over others, and "evil" creatures would either prefer to engage me or engage someone else.

Would it be redundant if I took Cornugon Smash and Dreadful Carnage once I get it? Both are similar but work very differently. I see myself more Power Attack + Dazing Assault + Great Cleave + Dreadful Carnage, but I won't be able to do that until later. Cornugon Smash might be useful in the interim, but I'm worried about it being redundant.