Pathfinder Paladin 7th Level Feat- Advice?

[The Park Ranger]

Hello Forumgoers.

I'm playing in a Pathfinder Campaign, title unknown, as a THW Paladin. Fairly standard- heavy armor, cleaving my way through encounters. The rest of the party is fairly standard as well; Neutral Good healbot cleric, True Neutral Wizard that focuses on support and blast spells, and a nearly useless Evil rogue that split all of his feats between crossbow and two weapon fighting, and acts basically as a skill monkey that occasionally fails muggings.

After the Wizard accidentally killed the son of a very powerful noble with a lightning bolt, during our breakout from an evil cult holding us prisoner, we've been designated for massive bounties by both the father of the guy we killed, and the cult who's temple and followers were wrecked by us during our breakout. Deciding to flee the city where everything happened, we're moving to a small village where assorted subplots are still going on. Because of this, I'm looking for a useful melee feat for my Paladin.

His basic build looks like this:

Strength: 19 (17+2 belt)
Dexterity: 12 (10+2 human bonus)
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: 13
Wisdom: 13
Charisma:14 (13+1 level 4 bonus)

Feats:

1st: Power Attack, Cleave

3rd: Extra Lay on Hands

5th: Great Cleave

7th: (being determined here)

He uses a +2 Holy Greatsword, with a +2 Belt of Giant Strength, a +2 set of Full Plate, and a +1 Ring of Protection. As the party face, he has Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perception, and Sense Motive maxed, needing to tell if people (party rogue) are lying or not.

As for the Feat, I've had a few ideas and or suggestions. Cornugon Smash, allowing me to get a free intimidate on whoever I Power Attack, Cleaving Finish, letting me attack anybody in reach whenever I knock somebody below 0 hit points, and leadership have all been suggested, but I want to know if there are any better alternatives. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

*Edit* On an unrelated note, does anybody know how to center your profile picture for the forum account? My one's just showing the top right corner of whatever Image I put in.

[Ravens_cry]

Furious Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/furious-focus-combat) can be nice, it lets you Power Attack without taking the to-hit penalty on the first attack each round.
Edit for Edit: You need to shrink the image so that it is 120x120 pixels and reupload it.

[T.G. Oskar]

Cornugon Smash is great, since you can provide a solid debuff with every hit. If you go for Furious Focus, you can also attempt to get Dreadful Carnage (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dreadful-carnage-combat&sa=U&ei=TgyEU4fhEYzgsATk1YCICg&ved=0CAkQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNEnp9QyuRvN8cJw-sasHRQfdPeguA) and provide a 30-ft. demoralize attempt when you drop an opponent to 0 hit points.

I wouldn't go for Cleaving Finish, though. It's too conditional: you need to drop an opponent AND have others nearby, and if you can't keep all opponents nearby, then you'll rarely use this benefit. Cleave (and Great Cleave) are better in that regard, even if only one hit applies.

As for other feats, I would recommend Felling Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/felling-smash-combat) and Tripping Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/tripping-strike-combat), so that you can use that awesome 19 Str and +2 Holy Greatsword to trip opponents in addition to an attack. The former requires a standard action to use (speak to your GM to see if it works with [Great] Cleave); the latter requires landing a critical hit to enable the trip. Both need two more feats to work (Combat Expertise and Improved Trip), so it's your choice if you want to spend 4 feats to make a good tripper; you have the right Intelligence, though, so you shouldn't have much trouble. On the other hand, you could go with Bull Rush, which is a pretty nice maneuver, and get to Bull Rush Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bull-rush-strike-combat) and Quick Bull Rush (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-bull-rush-combat): talk to your GM to see if your Paladin can move while making a bull rush as part of a full attack with Quick Bull Rush, since that makes Bull Rush an interesting way of positioning people. Also: greatly consider either Dazing Assault (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dazing-assault-combat) or Stunning Assault (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/stunning-assault-combat); both are great ways to keep people locked out, and Dazing Assault is very hard to resist (it's a Fortitude save which is easy to resist, but you can reduce that save if you manage to shaken them with Cornugon Smash, and virtually no creature is immune to daze), though the former is acquired by 11th level and the latter by level 17th, so keep them in mind.

Two usual recommendations involve the Step Up line (Step Up (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/step-up-combat---final), Following Step (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/following-step-combat), Step Up and Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/step-up-and-strike-combat)), which allows you to follow anyone who escapes your grasp and grants a free attack when doing so (it counts as an attack of opportunity, though), and Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat---final), which adds some range to your attacks (but only during your attacks in the round; it doesn't increase your threatened area for AoOs). The first is formidable against spellcasters (note that concentration checks are harder for spellcasters to do), the second helps a lot against people with reach.

Finally: while Lay on Hands is great, you may want to reconsider the Extra Lay on Hands feat. By latter levels, you'll get enough uses of Lay on Hands that you might end up not using them all. It's good early on when you're probably lacking them, but it'll lose some steam afterwards. That frees up a feat for everything.

So, specifically one for 7th level? Cornugon Smash is great, unless you're intending for Felling Strike or Quick Bull Rush in which case you should build up for those (starting by Combat Expertise for Felling Smash/Tripping Strike or Improved Bull Rush for Quick Bull Rush/Bull Rush Strike).

[The Park Ranger]

Thanks for the help, everybody.

@Ravens Cry: Thanks for the advice about profile pictures, think I'll add one tomorrow.

@T.G. Oscar: Yeah, I think you're right about Cleaving Finish; it's pretty situational, and if I'm covered in goblins I should probably be Great Cleaving instead. I like the idea of Cornugon Smash, dropping Extra LoH, and moving into the Bull Rush tree. The DM is pretty flexible about restructuring; he let the Rogue drop a level of Assasin, who, because of not reading the Death Attack entry, thought it meant he could insta kill anybody he Sneak Attacked. Ironically, he didn't know the rules for Sneak Attack either. Ahem. What about Cornugon and Improved Bull Rush this level, at 9 getting Quick Bull Rush, then at 11, getting Greater Bull Rush, so whatever I'm charging provokes AoO's? (AoOs'?).

While Step Up could be useful, the caster's we fight have the irritating tendency to stay behind the redshirts they throw at us in economy sized packages, rather than moving into melee range like I'd prefer them to. Usually, in our encounters, the Rogue blunders into something, we run up to save him, he runs behind us and shoots a crossbow bolt every round, I start cleaving whatever he pissed off, the wizard casts spells, and the cleric makes it rain Spiritual Weapons, and we almost never fight casters anyways, so I think the Bull Rush feats would be a bit better for my purposes. Things might change, of course, so I'll keep my eyes open for whether the feat could start becoming important.

Thanks for the help!

[T.G. Oskar]

@T.G. Oscar: Yeah, I think you're right about Cleaving Finish; it's pretty situational, and if I'm covered in goblins I should probably be Great Cleaving instead. I like the idea of Cornugon Smash, dropping Extra LoH, and moving into the Bull Rush tree. The DM is pretty flexible about restructuring; he let the Rogue drop a level of Assasin, who, because of not reading the Death Attack entry, thought it meant he could insta kill anybody he Sneak Attacked. Ironically, he didn't know the rules for Sneak Attack either. Ahem. What about Cornugon and Improved Bull Rush this level, at 9 getting Quick Bull Rush, then at 11, getting Greater Bull Rush, so whatever I'm charging provokes AoO's? (AoOs'?).

Technically, it should be AoO (Attacks of Opportunity), but it's the common way to handle it.

The set-up works fine as-is, if you know how to use Bull Rush. Cornugon Smash early on should help your Wizard land its spells better, though note that you'll eventually use Intimidate less and less. Greater Bull Rush indeed provokes attacks of opportunity, which should help your Rogue (particularly if the Rogue finds a way to deliver SA through attacks of opportunity for the extra damage). I'd get GBR before Quick BR, though, since you want to deliver the attacks of opportunity before using the full attack to enable a Bull Rush, so that you don't end up missing attacks.


While Step Up could be useful, the caster's we fight have the irritating tendency to stay behind the redshirts they throw at us in economy sized packages, rather than moving into melee range like I'd prefer them to. Usually, in our encounters, the Rogue blunders into something, we run up to save him, he runs behind us and shoots a crossbow bolt every round, I start cleaving whatever he pissed off, the wizard casts spells, and the cleric makes it rain Spiritual Weapons, and we almost never fight casters anyways, so I think the Bull Rush feats would be a bit better for my purposes. Things might change, of course, so I'll keep my eyes open for whether the feat could start becoming important.

Thanks for the help!

I mention Step Up because most people find it indispensable. In your case, it's not that useful, but eventually your Bull Rushes should clear the way out of mooks and let you get near the caster. It's particularly useful if the Bull Rush ends up leaving the mook right in front of the caster, and far better if it moves, because once it's down, the caster will end up close to you. Following Step lets you move around 10 ft., so if the caster makes a 5-ft. step, you can approach him (can't use Step Up and Strike unless you get additional attacks of opportunity, though).

You can ignore it, though, since it's not really working for you anyways. If you can nudge Dazing Assault in your feat list, you should cover quite a bit of bases. You may want to consider spikes for your armor and Spiked Destroyer; dealing damage when making a bull rush attempt AND afterwards, particularly if you have lots of bonuses to damage, adds up real quick. Armor spikes don't deal a whole lot of damage otherwise, though, and you have to watch over for your feats. As long as you can work up enough of a CMB for bull rush maneuvers and know when to use it, you should do fine.

One last recommendation: see if you can add the Titanic armor enhancement and/or the Righteous armor enhancement. People using Combat Maneuvers and wielding Two-Handed Weapons take the most advantage out of size increases, particularly because of the reach. Sure, it'll be a +1 increase at most to Bull Rush CMB, but you can bull rush up to Huge creatures, which is great.

[The Park Ranger]

I like the idea of Spiked Destroyer, but I can't really see where it fits into my feat progression. I could see the Campaign I'm playing in to go fairly high in terms of level, but in the foreseeable future (level 7-11) I'd be taking Cornugon and Improved Bull Rush this level, dropping Extra LoH, and taking Greater Bull Rush at 9th, and either Dazing Assault, Quick Bull Rush, or Spiked Destroyer at 11th. Because a lot of Paladin abilities scale with level, in terms of how many and how powerful they are, I'm concerned that taking levels in Fighter would stunt that, in exchange for doing 1d4+strength bonus damage every time I bull rush. What would you recommend I take as a course of action?

[T.G. Oskar]

I like the idea of Spiked Destroyer, but I can't really see where it fits into my feat progression. I could see the Campaign I'm playing in to go fairly high in terms of level, but in the foreseeable future (level 7-11) I'd be taking Cornugon and Improved Bull Rush this level, dropping Extra LoH, and taking Greater Bull Rush at 9th, and either Dazing Assault, Quick Bull Rush, or Spiked Destroyer at 11th. Because a lot of Paladin abilities scale with level, in terms of how many and how powerful they are, I'm concerned that taking levels in Fighter would stunt that, in exchange for doing 1d4+strength bonus damage every time I bull rush. What would you recommend I take as a course of action?

It can be one of the later feats; don't sacrifice Quick BR or Dazing Assault for Spiked Destroyer. Considering how things go, it can easily be the 13th or 15th level feat.

As for 11th level: I'd definitely say Dazing Assault over Quick Bull Rush, since you want to have the feat apply ASAP. Remember that order of operations should apply: you should do the demoralize attempt before the enemy makes the save for daze, since both would be applying at once. That way, if you successfully demoralize the opponent, it will have a penalty to the saving throw, which makes Dazing Assault even better. Then go for Quick Bull Rush, and THEN for Spiked Destroyer, so that you end up at 15th level with the following:

Attack (or Bull Rush -> Spiked Destroyer attack) -> Cornugon Smash -> Dazing Assault.

You'll need a pretty decent attack bonus to compensate for the penalty from Dazing Assault. Your Cleric and Wizard allies should help you with that, but often rely on yourself. Divine Favor and Deadly Juggernaut are your best friends; the former is good for when there's few enemies, the latter is formidable when you're in a dungeon with lots of enemies (the duration of Deadly Juggernaut is measured in minutes, so you should get about 7-8 minutes of the spell when you first get it, and it grants a greater luck bonus). The Wizard should probably cast Haste (it helps you and the Rogue), while the Cleric provides another boost to attack rolls (and maybe Prayer as a starter spell, since while it's not that good for you as it's a luck bonus like Divine Favor/Deadly Juggernaut, it also penalizes enemies).

Also, it helps to know when to use Dazing Assault and when to use Power Attack. DA should be used against low-Fort enemies, such as spellcasters, while PA should be used against high-Fort enemies, such as dragons and other big monsters. Between the size increase, the bonus damage from Power Attack, the additional attack and damage bonus from Divine Favor/Deadly Juggernaut, and the potential additional damage from your mark (or "smite"; I can't help calling it a smite, though), you can probably one-shot or two-shot any target. That should give you some flexibility. It also helps to know when to use Bull Rush, particularly since with Spiked Destroyer and other bonuses to attack you can rack up the damage from that armor spike damage. BR can be used to move difficult targets into flanking position with the Rogue or into range for Cleric/Wizard spellcasting.

[The Park Ranger]

Sorry for the late reply, but I think I'll go with Cornugon Smash and Improved Bull Rush this level, and then Greater Bull Rush at 9th, and then Quick Bull Rush at 11th. Thanks for all the help with picking feats- I really appreciate it.