Player Help Samurai cleric [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

GilesTheCleric

2014-05-26, 10:19 PM

I'm playing in a 4e one-shot, so that I can have a taste of the system (I tried a 5e cleric a few weeks ago, so I wanted to see how it compared to 4e).

I've built a lvl 1 cleric, whose backstory is that she was trained as a samurai, and then couldn't do enough to honour her family and code, and so left for a monastic life to try and learn more about philosophy etc. Her life goal is to gain enlightenment, restore her family's respect in her, and to own or run her own library.

My build is really simple thus far -- all stuff from the PHB. What I'm looking for are some simple options in other books that would help reinforce my flavour, particularly a feat that would improve her katana or personal power/ki.

race: eladrin
14 str, 14 con, 12 dex, 14 int, 16 wis, 8 cha
deity: Avandra
alignment: NG

weapons: longsword (fluffed as a katana), spear
armour: chain

A: priest's shield, righteous brand
E: healing strike
D: guardian of faith
R: tenser's floating disk

feat: eladrin soldier

Having AEDUs that utilize my weapon seem good flavour-wise, since her sword is representative of her power. I'm fine fluffing her sword as her holy symbol for other AEDUs, especially if they make sense originating from a sword. In terms of party role, I'd like to be able to mix up frontlining/bashing things and supporting the rest of the party with buffs and heals.

I've been told we're all getting "one free expertise and one free defense bolstering feat of that player's choice". I'm not sure where/what those are yet, but I have them I guess. I didn't see anything like that in the PHB, so I would like to know where they're from. If it's just something like +2 to a save and wep damage, then I'll probably pick fort and longsword.

Inevitability

2014-05-27, 01:02 AM

First rule of 4e: put an 18 in your main stat (wisdom/strength).
Now that I look at it, you have chosen strength-based powers, but are putting most points in wisdom. You need more strength and less wisdom.

You're better of dumping intelligence or dexterity in favor of charisma, too. Don't spread your points around.

The feats you heard about give +2 to a single NAD (fortitude, reflex or will) and give you +1 to hit with a weapon of your choice. They are pretty much required for a good PC, so most DM's give the feats for free.

GilesTheCleric

2014-05-27, 02:08 AM

Okay, that's good to know. Unfortunately, we're using array for chargen, so I can only move those scores around. I'll follow your advice and move wis to str, then. If I dump int, my character won't be a librarian-type, though. Does dex apply to AC in 4e? It didn't seem like it -- in that case, I could dump dex for cha, right?

Alright, so those feats function as expected. Do you happen to know what book they're in, for completeness's sake?

Thank you for your fast response!

Kurald Galain

2014-05-27, 03:27 AM

Does dex apply to AC in 4e?

Only if you're wearing light armor, which clerics generally don't.

Generally speaking, in 4E you pick the two most important stats for your character (e.g. either wis/cha or str/cha for a cleric) and max those out, and dump the rest since you won't be using them much. The two most commonly used arrays are 18, 14, 11, 10, 10, 8; and 16, 16, 13, 11, 10, 8.

Inevitability

2014-05-27, 05:53 AM

If you want a librarian-type, choose your trained skills in a way that fit this. Don't boost an ability just for that reason.

Yakk

2014-05-27, 08:28 AM

So you have a few problems.

1) Your race only grants a bonus to a secondary stat of your class (Charisma in this case).

Clerics are Primary Str or Wis with secondary Charisma.

2) You chose to dump charisma anyhow. Which means you have basically chosen to anti-optimize your character.

Clerics in 4e are Leaders. Which means they are really good at enhancing the rest of the party. You can build a front-line Cleric, but it will not be a dominant battlefield combatant.

So now you are playing significantly against type and/or a serious generalist character (a warrior who becomes a scholar-cleric, a backstory that basically means "I am good at everything!" almost), and have no mechanical experience, so you shouldn't be surprised if your character is poor to bad at everything compared to other party members.

If I wanted to play that backstory, I'd build a more mechanically complex character (sohai warlord|cleric maybe). I'd also ideally want the ability to go for an 18 in my primary attribute, because I cannot gain a +2 bonus to it, or I'd go lazy warlord MC cleric and dump my attack stats completely.

Note that nothing in your backstory mentions eladrin. Is there a reason you want to be an eladrin? Are you certain you want to be a Cleric?

An Eladrin Warlord multiclass Cleric has most of your fluff. Or even an Eladrin Warlord. It isn't a Cleric, but it is a leader class.

Epinephrine

2014-05-27, 10:07 AM

Are you certain you want to be a Cleric?

An Eladrin Warlord multiclass Cleric has most of your fluff. Or even an Eladrin Warlord. It isn't a Cleric, but it is a leader class.

It's a very good point - you need to know a few things; anyone can be religious or have attended a monastery, if you don't need "cleric" powers it's just fluff. I would propose that you first decide what role you want to play - do you want to be a leader (healing, buffing, enabling), a striker (damage dealing), a controller (debuffs, status effects, multi-target damage), or a defender (protector-type, controls melee by positioning and powers).

Given that you've already stated that you are making a cleric, i would assume that your party may be counting on you playing the leader role. Picking the leader will be a matter of choosing the style you want, and possibly the power source if there are things that are specific that you might want from it.

You mentioned her "personal power/ki."

One option that might fit (thematically, weapon choices, race) would be an Ardent. There is less support for the ardent than for a cleric or warlord (both fine options), but it is a weapon-based class in light armour, with Charisma (force of will, ki) as the main attribute. Two-handed weapons are typical for an Ardent, refluffing a Falchion/Fullblade as a katana would be a fine choice. That's not to say that you couldn't do a warlord or cleric, just that there is an option that is based on force of will and fits the Eladrin choice. You can always make a warlord and refluff it a bit to be about mobilizing your allies by force of will. All that said, Ardents are a bit odd as 4e classes go, using power points to turn at-wills into the equivalent of encounter powers. They aren't a very typical 4e class, though they can be fun.

I would look at re-fluffing as an option, no matter what. Anyone can be pious, anyone can take a background to let them train religion. Unless you want to use a divine power source, you can fill the leader role with a variety of characters with different mechanical abilities, and just alter the description of them to suit. If your goal is to directly compare Clerics from the different editions, re-fluffing isn't the way to go, but if you want to build a leader type using mostly weapon-based comabt and inspiring your allies to fight better, the ardent or warlord both offer ways to do that, and either can be from a religious background and can pick a theme like Sohei to get that divine/monastic feel.

GPuzzle

2014-05-27, 11:45 AM

Ardents tend to use heavy armor and wield a one-handed weapon+shield, unless they're Poleardents.

Yes, they do take the proficiency feats.

GilesTheCleric

2014-05-27, 11:46 AM

Only if you're wearing light armor, which clerics generally don't.

Generally speaking, in 4E you pick the two most important stats for your character (e.g. either wis/cha or str/cha for a cleric) and max those out, and dump the rest since you won't be using them much. The two most commonly used arrays are 18, 14, 11, 10, 10, 8; and 16, 16, 13, 11, 10, 8.

Okay, thank you for confirming. The array we're using is 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8.

If you want a librarian-type, choose your trained skills in a way that fit this. Don't boost an ability just for that reason.

I've done that as well (arcana, history, insight, and religion). I guess I'm just stuck in the 3e mindset that int is useful for skills. I made the same mistake in 5e, too, where having more int doesn't make a difference or add more skills either. Still, I really dislike rping dumb characters, or characters whose intelligence is average. Maybe I could put the 10 in int, which then gives me a 12 after racial mod. That's about one deviation above average.

So you have a few problems.

1) Your race only grants a bonus to a secondary stat of your class (Charisma in this case).

Clerics are Primary Str or Wis with secondary Charisma.

2) You chose to dump charisma anyhow. Which means you have basically chosen to anti-optimize your character.

Clerics in 4e are Leaders. Which means they are really good at enhancing the rest of the party. You can build a front-line Cleric, but it will not be a dominant battlefield combatant.

So now you are playing significantly against type and/or a serious generalist character (a warrior who becomes a scholar-cleric, a backstory that basically means "I am good at everything!" almost), and have no mechanical experience, so you shouldn't be surprised if your character is poor to bad at everything compared to other party members.

If I wanted to play that backstory, I'd build a more mechanically complex character (sohai warlord|cleric maybe). I'd also ideally want the ability to go for an 18 in my primary attribute, because I cannot gain a +2 bonus to it, or I'd go lazy warlord MC cleric and dump my attack stats completely.

Note that nothing in your backstory mentions eladrin. Is there a reason you want to be an eladrin? Are you certain you want to be a Cleric?

An Eladrin Warlord multiclass Cleric has most of your fluff. Or even an Eladrin Warlord. It isn't a Cleric, but it is a leader class.
This is my first time playing 4e (I haven't actually played yet, either XD), so I didn't realize it was so important to really buff the main stats. I should move my best stat to str, and second-best to cha, then?

This is a level 1 one-shot, so I'm not going to be able to take more than one class. It seemed like from the AEDUs that clerics could use melee attacks to proc their buffing abilities, which would require them to be mano-à-mano. I'm fine with not being a melee powerhouse. My backstory is really just to help inform my weapon choice and character motivation, so building a character that is primarily a cleric, but with the consideration of using a sword was the idea.

I didn't go into this intending to anti-optimize; I guess once again I'm just stuck in a 3e mindset where basically all the choices you make for your cleric don't matter, because spells.

Eladrin was a human-like race that got the longsword as a weapon, bonuses to cha and int, and a nifty teleport ability, which is why I picked it. If there's a human-like race that would be a better pick, then I will go with whatever you recommend. I do want to play a cleric.

It's a very good point - you need to know a few things; anyone can be religious or have attended a monastery, if you don't need "cleric" powers it's just fluff. I would propose that you first decide what role you want to play - do you want to be a leader (healing, buffing, enabling), a striker (damage dealing), a controller (debuffs, status effects, multi-target damage), or a defender (protector-type, controls melee by positioning and powers).

Given that you've already stated that you are making a cleric, i would assume that your party may be counting on you playing the leader role. Picking the leader will be a matter of choosing the style you want, and possibly the power source if there are things that are specific that you might want from it.

You mentioned her "personal power/ki."

One option that might fit (thematically, weapon choices, race) would be an Ardent. There is less support for the ardent than for a cleric or warlord (both fine options), but it is a weapon-based class in light armour, with Charisma (force of will, ki) as the main attribute. Two-handed weapons are typical for an Ardent, refluffing a Falchion/Fullblade as a katana would be a fine choice. That's not to say that you couldn't do a warlord or cleric, just that there is an option that is based on force of will and fits the Eladrin choice. You can always make a warlord and refluff it a bit to be about mobilizing your allies by force of will. All that said, Ardents are a bit odd as 4e classes go, using power points to turn at-wills into the equivalent of encounter powers. They aren't a very typical 4e class, though they can be fun.

I would look at re-fluffing as an option, no matter what. Anyone can be pious, anyone can take a background to let them train religion. Unless you want to use a divine power source, you can fill the leader role with a variety of characters with different mechanical abilities, and just alter the description of them to suit. If your goal is to directly compare Clerics from the different editions, re-fluffing isn't the way to go, but if you want to build a leader type using mostly weapon-based comabt and inspiring your allies to fight better, the ardent or warlord both offer ways to do that, and either can be from a religious background and can pick a theme like Sohei to get that divine/monastic feel.

Ardent sounds neat -- I assume it's psionic, then? It sounds fun; next time I play in 4e, I'll probably go with that. For the purposes of this game, I'm playing a cleric, though.

Ki for a cleric would just be her divine connection. However, I didn't see any feats in the PHB that increased that. I'm fine with doing whatever the cleric is best at in 4e. From the AEDUs, it seemed like going down a mixed melee/buffing route was viable. I will say that I don't know the rules of 4e very well, though, so I may have misunderstood. Can I use those buffs without hitting foes?

Epinephrine

2014-05-27, 12:06 PM

Eladrin was a human-like race that got the longsword as a weapon, bonuses to cha and int, and a nifty teleport ability, which is why I picked it. If there's a human-like race that would be a better pick, then I will go with whatever you recommend. I do want to play a cleric.

Human is a very strong choice for a human-like race (not trying to be funny - it really is a good choice). You get to buff whatever stat you want (Str for a front-line cleric), you get an extra feat (at first level this is a big deal, you have 100% more feats than anyone else), the racial power is solid (either an extra at-will, or a decent encounter power). Unlike many versions of D&D, humans aren't a sucky race at all; they don't do as well as dual-statted races for some builds that rely on their riders and on a non-main stat for AC (light armour non Int/Dex primaries, for example), but they can be very solid in many cases.

The other good races aren't as human as you might like, if you want strength-based. Goliaths could work (big humans?), Dwarves are solid (but not as human-like), and so on. Mul (Dark Sun Half-dwarf) can pass for human and can choose human as an option. This is presuming you want a traditional Str-based melee cleric.

A completely different option would be a Warpriest, the essentials melee cleric (still a cleric!), they are primary Wisdom, secondary Constitution, so they work well with a different set of races, including half-elf as a solid human-like race. In a level 1 game the essentials classes will do just fine, the main advantage would be being able to be Wisdom primary and still be a melee combatant (and it opens up races).

Human Cleric is a fine pick though.

Yakk

2014-05-27, 12:49 PM

A +2 to your main stat makes you about 10% more effective. Which is pretty large.

Hitting triggers most effects in 4e, so you want to hit. You miss about half of the time against hard opponents, so turning 1 point of misses into hits means you hit 55% instead of 50%, and ~0.55/~0.50 = ~1.1.

There are 2 classic cleric builds: melee cleric and "laser" cleric (so named because they deal radiant damage with ranged powers mostly). There is also the essentials Warpriest, which is a simplified but solid cleric.

The melee cleric is strength primary, wis/cha secondary, and hits things with a weapon.

The laser cleric is wis primary, cha secondary, and uses holy symbols to blast folk (at reasonably close ranges).

The essentials warpriest is wis primary, con secondary, and mostly hits things with a weapon.

You'll want to pick your primary stat, and get a race that adds +2 to it (human qualfies), then put your 16 in it. Next, you'll want an expertise feat that adds to your primary means of attacking (devout protector expertise if you don't use battle cleric's lore, Heavy Blade expertise, Holy Symbol expertise, or whatever). Finally, you'll either want Improved Defences or Superior Will as your last "free" feat.

As a human, if you use a weapon, consider a superior weapon feat. This lets you skip martial.

Battle Cleric's Lore option is useful as a Melee cleric (upgrades your armor grants you a holy shield without using a shield if I remember rightly) at the cost of some party buffing (but nothing says loving like soaking attacks).

If you can afford 13 wis on your melee cleric, one of the best multiclass feats is Battle Awareness for a melee cleric (not for a warpriest). It grants you basically a free melee basic attack 1/encounter so long as you are fighting in melee with a defender around you and are willing to be aggressive. (Use it when an adjacent foe attacks the defender for example).

In short:
Human Cleric
16+2 str 12 con 8 dex 14 int 14 wis 14 cha
Pick Strength based attack powers.
Choose Battle Cleric's lore for defender-level AC to replace Healer's Lore.
Mighty Crusader's Expertise (free) or Two-Handed Weapon Expertise (free)
Improved Defenses (free)
Superior Weapon: Fullblade (+3 prof 1d12 damage weapon -- your Katana)
Battle Awareness (Fighter MC feat)
Sohai theme

And pick cleric powers that attack based off Strength.

You'll be a front-line combat beast with party-buffing and healing abilities.

Sohai gives you a minor action attack, Battle Awareness an immediate attack (with an easy trigger if you have a defender), and your damage on both is decent.

Your accuracy isn't rogue-level, but it is pretty good. Which means the riders on your cleric powers are likely to go off (so long as you stick to strength based powers!)

Your defences are strong -- defender level:
AC: 19
Fort: 16
Reflex: 14
Will: 14
And your OA is decent as well: Basic Attack: +8 vs AC, 1d12+4 damage

You aren't dealing striker damage, but you can bloody level 1 foes on a solid hit, and 1-hit kill on a crit (16+1d12 damage).

Inevitability

2014-05-27, 12:58 PM

Okay, thank you for confirming. The array we're using is 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8.

I've done that as well (arcana, history, insight, and religion). I guess I'm just stuck in the 3e mindset that int is useful for skills. I made the same mistake in 5e, too, where having more int doesn't make a difference or add more skills either. Still, I really dislike rping dumb characters, or characters whose intelligence is average. Maybe I could put the 10 in int, which then gives me a 12 after racial mod. That's about one deviation above average.

This is my first time playing 4e (I haven't actually played yet, either XD), so I didn't realize it was so important to really buff the main stats. I should move my best stat to str, and second-best to cha, then?

Firstly, If you have to go with these stats, while still being an eladrin, I'd recommend these abilities:

STR: 16
CON: 14
DEX: 8
INT: 12
WIS: 12
CHA: 16

This is a level 1 one-shot, so I'm not going to be able to take more than one class.

You actually can. Multiclassing in 4e is as simple as taking a feat. Heck, you can even be multiclassed twice at level 1!

Eladrin was a human-like race that got the longsword as a weapon, bonuses to cha and int, and a nifty teleport ability, which is why I picked it. If there's a human-like race that would be a better pick, then I will go with whatever you recommend. I do want to play a cleric.

Dwarves also get free proficiency with a weapon, bonuses to STR and CON, and are tough as nails. But if you want something more supernatural, be a genasi (Forgotten realms players guide). With STR and INT bonuses, your abilities are good enough, and you get a special power based on your chosen element. They can't teleport, but they can, for example, fly, turn into water and basically move like they want for a round, or create an earthquake that knocks their foes down.

Ardent sounds neat -- I assume it's psionic, then? It sounds fun; next time I play in 4e, I'll probably go with that. For the purposes of this game, I'm playing a cleric, though.

Yes, they are psionic. Ardents are a pretty balanced class. You can choose to focus on handing out buffs, free attacks, heals...

From the AEDUs, it seemed like going down a mixed melee/buffing route was viable. I will say that I don't know the rules of 4e very well, though, so I may have misunderstood. Can I use those buffs without hitting foes?

No, unless they are in the 'effect' line of a power. Most of the time, buffs are in the 'hit' line and require you to hit.

GilesTheCleric

2014-05-27, 05:12 PM

Ardents tend to use heavy armor and wield a one-handed weapon+shield, unless they're Poleardents.

Yes, they do take the proficiency feats.
Alright, that's definitely a playstyle I'm familiar with. *noted* What do you mean by "they do take the proficiency feats"?

*snip*
Human Cleric is a fine pick though.
Alright, I'll switch over to human then. What do you mean by "they don't do as well as dual-statted races for some builds that rely on their riders" -- is that like metamagic riders in 3.5?

*snip*
In short:
Human Cleric
16+2 str 12 con 8 dex 14 int 14 wis 14 cha
Pick Strength based attack powers.
Choose Battle Cleric's lore for defender-level AC to replace Healer's Lore.
Mighty Crusader's Expertise (free) or Two-Handed Weapon Expertise (free)
Improved Defenses (free)
Superior Weapon: Fullblade (+3 prof 1d12 damage weapon -- your Katana)
Battle Awareness (Fighter MC feat)
Sohai theme
*snip*
Okay, this helps a lot, thank you. I definitely want to go for the melee cleric route, assuming I'm still allowed to shoot off buffs that way (I think it does). What books/pages can I find all the feats you've mentioned? My sum total of experience with 4e books is going through the PHB cover-to-cover once.

And what is an "option" (Battle Cleric's Lore option), and where can I find it? Also, "theme"?

Firstly, If you have to go with these stats, while still being an eladrin, I'd recommend these abilities:

STR: 16
CON: 14
DEX: 8
INT: 12
WIS: 12
CHA: 16

You actually can. Multiclassing in 4e is as simple as taking a feat. Heck, you can even be multiclassed twice at level 1!
*snip*

Multiclassing at 1? It's all 2e up in here now. Since this is my first time, I'd like to take it slow and go single-class, I think. But where is this mystical multiclassing feat? I can't imagine I would have missed something like that if I had seen it.

Thank you for helping out with the eladrin option. I'll ask my DM if going for the more-powerful human approach is necessary, or if I'm okay sticking with eladrin. However, having a bigger katana/nodachi could never hurt...

Otherwise, I'm really liking the sound of Argent as a more generalist-type approach, which is similar to how I play in 3e. Hopefully I'll get a chance to try it in another one-shot sometime.

Epinephrine

2014-05-27, 05:42 PM

Alright, I'll switch over to human then. What do you mean by "they don't do as well as dual-statted races for some builds that rely on their riders" -- is that like metamagic riders in 3.5?

Maybe I shouldn't have said "riders"; many powers will use your main stat to hit (for a Cleric, Wisdom or Strength) but have additional effects based on another secondary stat; an example would be an attack that smacks the enemy and has an effect that reduces his damage rolls by your Constitution modifier until the end of your next turn. For some classes these bonuses happen more often, on more powers, and are keyed off of by more feats. The more often a secondary is used in your build the more important it is to have it strong. For some characters, they may also use their secondary toward their AC (Dexterity or Intelligence can both add to AC in light armour, and some other classes get the ability to count different attributes toward AC). Since the majority of foes will attack AC, those classes using a secondary stat to AC have a real incentive to get a bonus there.

Okay, this helps a lot, thank you. I definitely want to go for the melee cleric route, assuming I'm still allowed to shoot off buffs that way (I think it does). What books/pages can I find all the feats you've mentioned? My sum total of experience with 4e books is going through the PHB cover-to-cover once.

And what is an "option" (Battle Cleric's Lore option), and where can I find it? Also, "theme"?

People here are accustomed to pulling from every available source, as most are using the online character builder.
Battle Cleric's Lore is from Dragon #400. It gave an option to trade the cleric's Healing Lore (+Wisdom to the amount healed by cleric healing powers (e.g., your Healing Word)) for Battle Cleric's Lore (better AC in the form f Scale Armour and a +2 shield bonus to AC). It results in slightly weaker healing, but the AC bonus is huge.

Themes are from a variety of sources, the Sohei theme is from Dragon #404. themes introduce more customization to characters, but are not part of the original game design, they were added later.

In general, you can find themes and powers using the compendium. (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/database.aspx)
Even without a subscription you can look up where powers are listed, though it may say `Multiple Source` for some.

Multiclassing at 1? It's all 2e up in here now. Since this is my first time, I'd like to take it slow and go single-class, I think. But where is this mystical multiclassing feat? I can't imagine I would have missed something like that if I had seen it.

Some are in the Player's Handbook. Battle Awareness is from Martial Power.

An option not yet mentioned (partly because it isn't a true "cleric") is the Runepriest; it's a divine leader class that is also front line, and one of the options (Serene Blade) is for a lightly armoured sword wielder. They (like the battle cleric) are also Strength primary, with Wisdom or Constitution secondary. More options are probably not what you need, but for the sake of completeness in the cleric-like classes I figured I should mention it.

windgate

2014-05-28, 01:08 PM

Okay, thank you for confirming. The array we're using is 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8.

I've done that as well (arcana, history, insight, and religion). I guess I'm just stuck in the 3e mindset that int is useful for skills. I made the same mistake in 5e, too, where having more int doesn't make a difference or add more skills either. Still, I really dislike rping dumb characters, or characters whose intelligence is average. Maybe I could put the 10 in int, which then gives me a 12 after racial mod. That's about one deviation above average.

As you mentioned, an ability score of 10 is average for a human. However this does address the impact of trained skills and backgrounds.

If we were making a real world comparsion, a higher intelligence doesnt inherantly make a person smarter (Mensa membership inlcudes some people society would be suprised by), what is does do is improve a persons ability to use and absorb information. College Degrees represent skill training (pick a subject) , skill focus and a background bonus, not inherant inteliegence. Your character might not learn things quickly (low Int) but still knows alot more than the average person.

Have you considered playing a bard instead? Historically Bards were historians as much /if not morso than muscicians. The Charisma + Inteleigence scores fit them perfectly as well. Their class features and feats make them just as good (if not better) at skill checks than rogues. The essentials version (skald) thematically fits a melee front line focused non-caster speaker/historian. Who served as the scribe at your characters monastery?

In terms of mechanics, The theme "scholar" will give you an extra trained skill and every language at later levels.

Edit: Deity choice, Ioun, god of skill and knoweldge. You dont need to be a cleric to worship something.

Yakk

2014-05-28, 01:50 PM

Ooops: Correction to the build:

Human Cleric
16+2 str 12 con 8 dex 14 int 12 wis 14 cha
Pick Strength based attack powers.
Choose Battle Cleric's lore for defender-level AC to replace Healer's Lore.
Mighty Crusader's Expertise (free) or Two-Handed Weapon Expertise (free)
Improved Defenses (free) Retrain to superior will at level 4.
Superior Weapon: Fullblade (+3 prof 1d12 damage high crit 2 handed heavy blade -- your Katana)
Battle Awareness (Fighter MC feat)
Sohai theme

you could also take an 8 wis for a very unwise cleric.

The weakness of this build is really low initiative.

GilesTheCleric

2014-05-28, 02:44 PM

Maybe I shouldn't have said "riders"; many powers will use your main stat to hit (for a Cleric, Wisdom or Strength) but have additional effects based on another secondary stat; an example would be an attack that smacks the enemy and has an effect that reduces his damage rolls by your Constitution modifier until the end of your next turn. For some classes these bonuses happen more often, on more powers, and are keyed off of by more feats. The more often a secondary is used in your build the more important it is to have it strong. For some characters, they may also use their secondary toward their AC (Dexterity or Intelligence can both add to AC in light armour, and some other classes get the ability to count different attributes toward AC). Since the majority of foes will attack AC, those classes using a secondary stat to AC have a real incentive to get a bonus there.
Okay, I see. However, it didn't look like anything at level one touched cha at all. I'll take another look to make sure, but if that's the case, I can switch my good cha score to int and be fine, since this is just a lvl 1 one-shot. If I do end up making a character that will level up, I'll make sure to have a good secondary ability score, though.

People here are accustomed to pulling from every available source, as most are using the online character builder.
Battle Cleric's Lore is from Dragon #400. It gave an option to trade the cleric's Healing Lore (+Wisdom to the amount healed by cleric healing powers (e.g., your Healing Word)) for Battle Cleric's Lore (better AC in the form f Scale Armour and a +2 shield bonus to AC). It results in slightly weaker healing, but the AC bonus is huge.

Themes are from a variety of sources, the Sohei theme is from Dragon #404. themes introduce more customization to characters, but are not part of the original game design, they were added later.

In general, you can find themes and powers using the compendium. (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/database.aspx)
Even without a subscription you can look up where powers are listed, though it may say `Multiple Source` for some.

Some are in the Player's Handbook. Battle Awareness is from Martial Power.

Ah, thank you very much. I was able to find almost everything, but the database isn't always helpful -- there's many things that are "multiple source" as you mentioned, and clicking on them just makes them ask for money. I couldn't find where Improved Defenses was, either in the database or in books. I checked MP 1, 2, PHB 1, 2, 3, and AV.

Also, Superior Weapon: Fullblade doesn't seem to exist. Is it supposed to be Weapon Proficiency: Fullblade?

I'm also a bit confused by the fighter multiclass feat. Is all it does is give a skill trained, and a 1/encounter power? And does that trained skill count against the number I get as a cleric?

An option not yet mentioned (partly because it isn't a true "cleric") is the Runepriest; it's a divine leader class that is also front line, and one of the options (Serene Blade) is for a lightly armoured sword wielder. They (like the battle cleric) are also Strength primary, with Wisdom or Constitution secondary. More options are probably not what you need, but for the sake of completeness in the cleric-like classes I figured I should mention it.
Hmn, that sounds interesting. Where is it from?

As you mentioned, an ability score of 10 is average for a human. However this does address the impact of trained skills and backgrounds.

If we were making a real world comparsion, a higher intelligence doesnt inherantly make a person smarter (Mensa membership inlcudes some people society would be suprised by), what is does do is improve a persons ability to use and absorb information. College Degrees represent skill training (pick a subject) , skill focus and a background bonus, not inherant inteliegence. Your character might not learn things quickly (low Int) but still knows alot more than the average person.

Have you considered playing a bard instead? Historically Bards were historians as much /if not morso than muscicians. The Charisma + Inteleigence scores fit them perfectly as well. Their class features and feats make them just as good (if not better) at skill checks than rogues. The essentials version (skald) thematically fits a melee front line focused non-caster speaker/historian. Who served as the scribe at your characters monastery?

In terms of mechanics, The theme "scholar" will give you an extra trained skill and every language at later levels.

Edit: Deity choice, Ioun, god of skill and knoweldge. You dont need to be a cleric to worship something.
Okay, so int and skills are the same in 4e as they are in 3e, then. However, it's still impressive to have 9s for my skill checks with a high int+eladrin, vs the 5s that being a human with low int gives me.

If I were playing a regular game, I would follow your advice and build a bard. However, this is a one-shot I'm playing in to compare clerics of various editions.

Ooops: Correction to the build:

Human Cleric
16+2 str 12 con 8 dex 14 int 12 wis 14 cha
Pick Strength based attack powers.
Choose Battle Cleric's lore for defender-level AC to replace Healer's Lore.
Mighty Crusader's Expertise (free) or Two-Handed Weapon Expertise (free)
Improved Defenses (free) Retrain to superior will at level 4.
Superior Weapon: Fullblade (+3 prof 1d12 damage high crit 2 handed heavy blade -- your Katana)
Battle Awareness (Fighter MC feat)
Sohai theme

you could also take an 8 wis for a very unwise cleric.

The weakness of this build is really low initiative.
Yes, I figured I would put my 10 in wis, since I'm not using my wis score for my powers. Low init is fine with me; I'm used to moving at what's called "cleric speed" in 3.5. Actually, that raises a question -- I didn't notice any divination in my casual skimming of >lvl 1 powers. Do clerics get divination spells in 4e?

Also, I've got some general 4e rules questions. So it looks like once you learn a power, you're stuck with it forever (until you level up), and can't switch them out every day. Also, the sohei theme grants an encounter power. But, level one characters only get 2 A, 1 E, and 1 D. Does the theme give me an additional E per day, or do I have to pick it as my only E? Also, how do the cleric channel divinity/healing word interact with this? Do I only get to pick one, and that's my 1 E forever until I level up? Also on that note, would getting the fighter multiclass feat (battle awareness) also give me an additional E/day?

windgate

2014-05-28, 03:26 PM

@GilesTheCleric

Horrible at seperating multiquote posts so ill just respond in section to your last post.

Re: Charisma
Charisma occassionally gets added to various powers and feats, but its rare enough to not be too concerned about.

RE: Battle Clerics vs Healers Lore.
Generally speaking, grabbing battleclerics lore is better due to the defense boost (its also makes clerics a common hybrid). You will still have the shield bonus even when using a two hander.

Re: Runepriest
at this point, there are 3-4 types of clerics (Not sure where 4e's Avenger would fall in earlier editions).

Cleric (players handbook)
Runepriest (players handbook 3)
Warpriest (Heroes of the forgotten kingdom)

Clerics are the traditional option, warpriests are the 4.5e (essentials) version. You have the greatest amount of flexibility and choices with the traditional cleric. Warpriests are by far the simplest to learn but this is due to you having practically no power choices (other than picking a domain). Runepriests are fairly unique (and dont have access to cleric feats). I dont understand them very well to describe them.

Re: FullBlade
Yes, Weapon proficency: Fullblade is what you are looking for. The item itself is classified as a superior weapon for purchasing purposes. I would not recommend doing this unless you are taking "battle clerics lore" for survival reasons.

Re: Wisdom Vs Strength
Later sourcebooks provide a large collection of melee weapon attack powers that use Wisdom instead of strength. There is even an widsom based melee weapon at-will power that can be used as a melee basic attack (opporunity attacks and charges). You are fully capable of making a cleric that dumps strength but fights effectily in melee. Many of those power are better using a simple weapon though....

Re: # Of encounter powers
Racial and Theme powers are in addition to the normal limits.

Re: Changing powers
It is true most classes cannot swap their powers out until they level up. But keep in mind, in 4e you are likely to use every one of your encounter powers in a given fight. A caster in previous editions will horde on to many of them (as they are often not relevant). It a bit of a mentality switch. If the DM would allow you to change powers after an extended rest, it wouldnt really break the game mechanics at all (after all, you dont know who your allies are yet). There are some Items and feats that alllow you to swap out powers after extended rests (IE reserve manuever)

Edit:
RE: Healing Word + Channel Divinity
Much like theme powers, these are class features provided in addition to the normal limits (warpriests also gain bonus "cantrips") If I remember correctly, healing word can be used 2x per fight (3x at level 16). You can also place mutliple channel divinities powers into your "spellbook" but the "Channel Divinity" keyword can only be used once per fight (you can use different ones in different fights).

windgate

2014-05-28, 03:37 PM

RE: Divination Spells

4e Basically seperated non-combat spells from class powers. As long as your character has the "ritual caster" feature (can be gained via a feat), you will gain access to a huge collection of non-combat spells classified as "rituals". Divination is present there.

GilesTheCleric

2014-05-28, 04:04 PM

windgate

2014-05-28, 04:43 PM

I do have a couple other questions. For powers that say 1[w], that means I'm only adding the weapon dice, and not any other modifiers I have? So conceivably, making a regular attack could do much more damage and be much more accurate than using a power? Also, is there any benefit to using a weapon two-handed, or 2h wep? I didn't see anything about strength-and-a-half to damage, and versatile only applies to 1h weps.

Are there either a) feats that increase my damage with a fullblade, or b) feats that increase my str-power damage with a fullblade? I already have a +8 to hit, but my damage is only 1d12+5 (so 11.5 avg). If I go back to eladrin+longsword with the eladrin soldier feat, my damage goes to 1d8+7 (11.5 avg, but better delta).

Okay, I'll look through the higher-level rituals, then. At 1st, the only decent thing seemed like tenser's disk, though. Unfortunately, until I pick up some gold, I'll be unable to use it XD I only have 5 gp left over from chargen, and I think it takes 10 per casting.

Damage Bonuses is one area where this edition becomes overly complicated...

The biggest differernce between using a two-handed weapon and a one hander is the range of (W) dice rolls. Generally speaking, the only classes that get major benefits from using a two-hander are Avengers (due to higher chances of critical strikes) and Barbarians (Due to rolling mutliple (W) dice with attacks) For a "battle cleric's lore" Cleric, its a small but free damage upgrade.

Outside, the size of the weapon (d8 for longsword, d12 for fullblade) you are mostly looking at feats that add things other than damage. Honestly, I would hold off on a superior weapon until later levels.

As for the mathematics:

Any time a power involves a damage roll (such as 1(W)), your damage is typically:

Damage Dice (such as 1(W))
+ Enhancement Bonus (+X enchant on weapon/Implement)
+ Best applicable Item Bonus (ie, bracers of mighty striking)
+ Best Applicable Feat Bonus (ex. Weapon Focus: Fullblade)
+ Best Applicable Power Bonus (buffs provided by yourself and allies)
+ All untyped (see above) bonuses to damage

most but not all[I] powers will also add your primary ability score to damage as well. The rangers (PHB1) "twin Strike" is an example of one that does not. Untyped bonuses will stack with each other, but keyworded ones will not. The stacking rules apply to pretty much everything, not just damage.

RE: Additional non-combat spell stuff
Some of the essential (4.5e) classes such as the warpriest come with free non-combat spells like presitigation, speak with animals and mage light. You will also gain access to skill based (utility) powers at later levels that can do interesting things outside of combat.

RE: Feats
At Level 1, I would suggest keeping things simple and choose either "mighty crusader expertise" or "devout protector" as your level 1 feat. Bumps your accuracy in addition to a secondary benefit.

Yakk

2014-05-28, 07:50 PM

Okay, thank you for the information and sources. My DM mentioned avenger; iirc it's a mix of rogue and cleric, right? That would make it similar to the Shadowbane Stalker prestige class (Complete Adventurer 68), which is a mix of cleric and rogue, or the Shadowbane Inquisitor prestige class (CAd 70), which is paladin+rogue. Slayer of Domiel (BoED 73), Thayan Slaver (UE 37), and Unseen Seer (CM 81) are also similar.
Religious assassin. Not really a 3e class.

Uses a neat reroll mechanic, carries a huge sword that it attacks with using pure faith. Best worshiping ioun for "power of skill".

I do have a couple other questions. For powers that say 1[w], that means I'm only adding the weapon dice, and not any other modifiers I have? So conceivably, making a regular attack could do much more damage and be much more accurate than using a power?
Yes. Note that the Sohei power is a minor action, so can attack in the same round as your standard action.

Also, is there any benefit to using a weapon two-handed, or 2h wep? I didn't see anything about strength-and-a-half to damage, and versatile only applies to 1h weps.
Some better feat support (THW expertise is decent with charge damage boost), and a better weapon at the same level of investment.

Are there either a) feats that increase my damage with a fullblade, or b) feats that increase my str-power damage with a fullblade?Not many that do not apply to one handed weapons as well.

I already have a +8 to hit, but my damage is only 1d12+4 (so 10.5 avg). If I go back to eladrin+longsword with the eladrin soldier feat, my damage goes to 1d8+7 (11.5 avg, but better ∆).
Get more accuracy, as riders are often half the point. Second, the Eladrin has a lower attack stat, so deals 1d8+6 damage on a 1[W] power, and is -1 to hit compared to the fullblade.

On a 2[W]+stat power, the longsword is 2d8+6, while the fullblade is 2d12+4.

And on crits the fullblade blows the longsword away as the fullblade both has a larger die to maximize, **and** is high crit so gets another d12 damage.

Okay, I'll look through the higher-level rituals, then. At 1st, the only decent thing seemed like tenser's disk, though. Unfortunately, until I pick up some gold, I'll be unable to use it XD I only have 5 gp left over from chargen, and I think it takes 10 per casting.
Spend less money?

Here is my finished proposed build. A few changes and bug fixes:

Samurai Cleric, level 1
Human, Cleric
Cleric: Battle Cleric's Lore
Human Power Selection: Heroic Effort
Background: Akanûl (Akanûl Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 12, Dex 8, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 8, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 12.

AC: 19 Fort: 16 Reflex: 14 Will: 16
HP: 24 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +7, Religion +7, Diplomacy +6, History +7, Arcana +7, Athletics +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -1, Bluff +1, Dungeoneering +2, Endurance +1, Insight +2, Intimidate +1, Nature +2, Perception +2, Stealth -1, Streetwise +1, Thievery -1

FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Human: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
Feat User Choice: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise
Feat User Choice: Improved Defenses
Level 1: Battle Awareness

POWERS
Channel Divinity: Healer's Mercy
Channel Divinity: Favor of the Gods
Cleric at-will 1: Righteous Brand
Cleric at-will 1: Invigorating Assault
Cleric encounter 1: Mighty Hew
Cleric daily 1: Weapon of Astral Flame

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Fullblade, Scale Armor, Adventurer's Kit
RITUALS
Tenser's Floating Disk, Comprehend Language

In combat, Righteous Brand is your go-to attack if you aren't forced to charge. It grants a +3 bonus to an allies next attack (which is a great setup).

After hitting, as a minor action you can do a Sohei attack (+8 vs AC, 1d12 damage).

You have two interrupt powers -- Mighty Hew and the Battle Awareness power. Mighty Hew triggers when an ally is hit, and deals 2d12+4 damage and halves the triggering attack's damage.

Battle Awareness triggers when an adjacent foe attacks anyone else, and deals 1d12+4 damage.

None of them use up your standard action, so you can spam your Righteous Brand and grant bonuses to your allies each time you hit. You can only use 1 immediate/round, but combat lasts 3+ rounds, so as long as you aggressively position yourself near the defender you should be able to get them off.

Your daily is a fountain of damage: it is a +8 vs Reflex attack you can repeat each round as a minor action for 1d12+4 damage the first round, and 1d12 each additional round.

The effects of this is that you are a fountain of repeated strikes.

Now, going Eladrin is tempting, but you lose an interrupt attack and swap a +4 after-the-fact attack bonus (which is basically an extra hit/encounter) for a teleport (which, while neat, doesn't help with the killing things dead goal). In exchange your attacks are all lower accuracy (as no racial bonus to attacks), and your damage remains unchanged on average without crits on 1[W] powers (lower attack stat!) You do get a reach attack, which is nice, but ...

Oh, and I swapped out both channel divinities for alternatives. Favor of the Gods is a "you get to reroll your next miss until the end of my next turn" (give it to an ally before they pull out their big daily/encounter attack power) and Healer's Mercy (standard action (ouch), every nearby bloodied ally can spend a healing surge (yum), and you are weakened for a turn (ouch)).

I also picked the coolest FR background -- Resist 2 cold/thunder/fire benefit -- because who doesn't like being fire proof? You could swap for a scholar one that grants a +2 bonus to Arcana skill checks or something.

GilesTheCleric

2014-05-29, 07:13 AM

*snip*
Any time a power involves a damage roll (such as 1(W)), your damage is typically:

Damage Dice (such as 1(W))
+ Enhancement Bonus (+X enchant on weapon/Implement)
+ Best applicable Item Bonus (ie, bracers of mighty striking)
+ Best Applicable Feat Bonus (ex. Weapon Focus: Fullblade)
+ Best Applicable Power Bonus (buffs provided by yourself and allies)
+ All untyped (see above) bonuses to damage

most but not all[I] powers will also add your primary ability score to damage as well. The rangers (PHB1) "twin Strike" is an example of one that does not. Untyped bonuses will stack with each other, but keyworded ones will not. The stacking rules apply to pretty much everything, not just damage.

RE: Additional non-combat spell stuff
Some of the essential (4.5e) classes such as the warpriest come with free non-combat spells like presitigation, speak with animals and mage light. You will also gain access to skill based (utility) powers at later levels that can do interesting things outside of combat.

RE: Feats
At Level 1, I would suggest keeping things simple and choose either "mighty crusader expertise" or "devout protector" as your level 1 feat. Bumps your accuracy in addition to a secondary benefit.
Okay, I think I understand. Thank you for being very clear in your writing, and explaining everything -- it definitely helps. However, some of the numbers Yakk cited don't match up with this; for 2[w] powers, it looked like flat bonuses were only added once. Also, some of the powers he mentioned only did dice+str mod (+4). Is that because of those powers specifically?

Man, I kinda wish we were playing at 2nd level so I could get a chance to try out those utility abilities.

*snip*
Here is my finished proposed build. A few changes and bug fixes:

Samurai Cleric, level 1
Human, Cleric
Cleric: Battle Cleric's Lore
Human Power Selection: Heroic Effort
Background: Akanûl (Akanûl Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 12, Dex 8, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 8, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 12.

AC: 19 Fort: 16 Reflex: 14 Will: 16
HP: 24 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +7, Religion +7, Diplomacy +6, History +7, Arcana +7, Athletics +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -1, Bluff +1, Dungeoneering +2, Endurance +1, Insight +2, Intimidate +1, Nature +2, Perception +2, Stealth -1, Streetwise +1, Thievery -1

FEATS
Cleric: Ritual Caster
Human: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
Feat User Choice: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise
Feat User Choice: Improved Defenses
Level 1: Battle Awareness

POWERS
Channel Divinity: Healer's Mercy
Channel Divinity: Favor of the Gods
Cleric at-will 1: Righteous Brand
Cleric at-will 1: Invigorating Assault
Cleric encounter 1: Mighty Hew
Cleric daily 1: Weapon of Astral Flame

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Fullblade, Scale Armor, Adventurer's Kit
RITUALS
Tenser's Floating Disk, Comprehend Language
*snip*

Wow, that's a really good build! Thank you for writing it all out, too; that is very thoughtful of you. I'll transfer this over to my sheet, and make sure my DM likes it. I'll have to look up where some of those powers and things are from, but that's fine. I still haven't found a source for Improved Defenses, though -- any idea where it's from?

Also, I'm going to have to make some changes to the gear -- what you've got there costs too much, since it looked like you only get 100 gold at level one. What do you recommend dropping -- the ritual book, I assume?
(
scale armour 45
adventurer's kit 15
ritual book 50
fullblade 30
holy symbol 10

longsword 15
spear 5
javelin 5ea
)

Yakk

2014-05-29, 07:56 AM

Epinephrine

2014-05-29, 07:58 AM

Okay, I think I understand. Thank you for being very clear in your writing, and explaining everything -- it definitely helps. However, some of the numbers Yakk cited don't match up with this; for 2[w] powers, it looked like flat bonuses were only added once.

That's correct, a 2[W]+Str power still only adds bonuses once. As you might guess, getting to add bonuses multiple times is great; this is possible with some multi-attacking powers, and they tend to be very nice striker powers.

I still haven't found a source for Improved Defenses, though -- any idea where it's from?

I think it shows up in the "Heroes of..." books, from what I remember it's a feat in the first of the essentials line. When the PHB came out there were multiple feats for defenses (one for heroic, one for paragon, one for epic) and you retrained them. The new version is just a scaling bonus (+1/2/3) and thus you don't need to replace it each tier by retraining.

Yakk

2014-05-29, 08:19 AM

Yep, [W] is just a die. 2[W] is just two dice.

If it says +Str, you deal +Str once, regardless of how many dice you roll.

Now, most powers have Weapon or Implement keywords. In those cases, the Enhancement bonus of the Weapon/Implement you use to attack with it is added to damage. Again, once, not once per die.

Similarly, feats grant bonuses to some attacks (like Weapon Focus granting bonuses to Weapon attacks with Weapons from the appropriate category). These are added once per attack, not once per die or per [W].

Sometimes a [W] is more than one die -- a 2d6 damage weapon when used with a 2[W] power deals 4d6 damage.

A side effect of all of this is that the Eladrin deals 7.5 damage from the first [W], while the Human deals 6.5 from the first [W]. Sohei's encounter attack (which you get in addition to your class one) and the daily flaming weapon deal a [W] with no stat damage. So that is an extra point of damage per round +1 per encounter when you pop your daily over the Fullblade build (times hit rate).

However, Battle Awareness is an other [W]+Stat, which is another 10.5 damage (times hit rate). Even in the fights where you pop your daily, it would have to last 10 rounds for the Eladrin's average damage to match the Human build's. And the Human has 1 more skill trained, higher accuracy with all powers, better crits, and higher non-AC defences.

The bonus feat is hard to beat, especially at low levels. While Eladrin Soldier is a top-tier feat, it isn't quite as good as 2 well chosen other feats.

GilesTheCleric

2014-05-29, 04:17 PM

Clerics start with 2 free rituals and a ritual book at level 1 as part of their class feature.

Note that you don't use any implement powers, and you don't need a holy symbol.

Some javalins may be worthwhile, yep.
Okay, that makes the money situation much better. So, now I just need to decide whether to grab 2 javelins with my remaining 10 gp, or a use of tenser's disk. I think the disk makes sense, to try out the mechanic.

That's correct, a 2[W]+Str power still only adds bonuses once. As you might guess, getting to add bonuses multiple times is great; this is possible with some multi-attacking powers, and they tend to be very nice striker powers.

I think it shows up in the "Heroes of..." books, from what I remember it's a feat in the first of the essentials line. When the PHB came out there were multiple feats for defenses (one for heroic, one for paragon, one for epic) and you retrained them. The new version is just a scaling bonus (+1/2/3) and thus you don't need to replace it each tier by retraining.
Thank you, it's in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. The strangest thing is, it's mentioned explicitly in other books as well, but WotC decided not to also mention what book it was from at the same time. Argh.

Yes, the 4e retraining mechanic is really cool -- it's like everyone is a sorcerer! But I can see how just putting the scaling into the feat to begin with is good -- it makes building a character and keeping track of all the changes way less complicated. It seems like a lot of things get better at 11th and 21st lvl. Are there massive difficulty spikes in the foes at those levels to compensate for the PCs suddenly getting a bunch stronger, or do the PCs get a few lvls of just stomping things?

Yep, [W] is just a die. 2[W] is just two dice.

If it says +Str, you deal +Str once, regardless of how many dice you roll.

Now, most powers have Weapon or Implement keywords. In those cases, the Enhancement bonus of the Weapon/Implement you use to attack with it is added to damage. Again, once, not once per die.

Similarly, feats grant bonuses to some attacks (like Weapon Focus granting bonuses to Weapon attacks with Weapons from the appropriate category). These are added once per attack, not once per die or per [W].

Sometimes a [W] is more than one die -- a 2d6 damage weapon when used with a 2[W] power deals 4d6 damage.

A side effect of all of this is that the Eladrin deals 7.5 damage from the first [W], while the Human deals 6.5 from the first [W]. Sohei's encounter attack (which you get in addition to your class one) and the daily flaming weapon deal a [W] with no stat damage. So that is an extra point of damage per round +1 per encounter when you pop your daily over the Fullblade build (times hit rate).

However, Battle Awareness is an other [W]+Stat, which is another 10.5 damage (times hit rate). Even in the fights where you pop your daily, it would have to last 10 rounds for the Eladrin's average damage to match the Human build's. And the Human has 1 more skill trained, higher accuracy with all powers, better crits, and higher non-AC defences.

The bonus feat is hard to beat, especially at low levels. While Eladrin Soldier is a top-tier feat, it isn't quite as good as 2 well chosen other feats.
Okay, now I see why eladrin is really nowhere as good as human. To be clear, even with powers, I use my regular weapon attack roll, with all feat etc. bonuses included?

Also, some questions about the build.
--Where is Heroic Effort? It's "multiple sources"
--Can I take the sohei theme in addition to the akanûl background, or are they exclusive?
--I still get Healing Word as part of my cleric class abilities, right?
--How did I get comprehend languages? Is it possible to freely swap out the default gentle repose for it?
--I think I get an additional at-will as a human. Would Battle Cleric's Mastery (Drag400 55) be a good choice, or would something else (Priest's Shield [PHB]) be better?

GPuzzle

2014-05-29, 04:31 PM

Also, some questions about the build.
--Where is Heroic Effort? It's "multiple sources"
--Can I take the sohei theme in addition to the akanûl background, or are they exclusive?
--I still get Healing Word as part of my cleric class abilities, right?
--How did I get comprehend languages? Is it possible to freely swap out the default gentle repose for it?
--I think I get an additional at-will as a human. Would Battle Cleric's Mastery (Drag400 55) be a good choice, or would something else (Priest's Shield [PHB]) be better?

Heroic Effort is in Heroes of the Fallen Lands. It substitutes the extra at-will for a +4 to hit.

You do, Backgrounds and Themes are two different things.

You do, every Cleric gets that.

One of the two free rituals, and you get Gentle Repose as a bonus ritual.

See awnser #1.

Urpriest

2014-05-29, 05:10 PM

Thank you, it's in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. The strangest thing is, it's mentioned explicitly in other books as well, but WotC decided not to also mention what book it was from at the same time. Argh.

One thing I don't think you've clarified: is this a one-shot with a group that normally runs 4e, or with a 3.5 group? If the former, they'll have access to the character builder, and you should just use that rather than trying to hunt everything down in separate books.

Yes, the 4e retraining mechanic is really cool -- it's like everyone is a sorcerer! But I can see how just putting the scaling into the feat to begin with is good -- it makes building a character and keeping track of all the changes way less complicated. It seems like a lot of things get better at 11th and 21st lvl. Are there massive difficulty spikes in the foes at those levels to compensate for the PCs suddenly getting a bunch stronger, or do the PCs get a few lvls of just stomping things?

It's a pretty substantial spike, though things are a bit smoothed over with foes since you can fight higher or lower level foes within +/- 4 levels or so.

Okay, now I see why eladrin is really nowhere as good as human. To be clear, even with powers, I use my regular weapon attack roll, with all feat etc. bonuses included?

It's the other way around. Even when making a regular weapon attack, you treat it as just another at-will power you have. There is no way to not use a power, it's just some powers (like "Melee Basic Attack") are available to every class.

Basically, all those bonuses add to every power unless they explicitly only add to Melee Basic Attacks.

Yakk

2014-05-29, 05:17 PM

Okay, that makes the money situation much better. So, now I just need to decide whether to grab 2 javelins with my remaining 10 gp, or a use of tenser's disk. I think the disk makes sense, to try out the mechanic.
When I did the math, you ended up with more than 10 gp left I thought.

Thank you, it's in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. The strangest thing is, it's mentioned explicitly in other books as well, but WotC decided not to also mention what book it was from at the same time. Argh.
Yes, the essentials rules.

Okay, now I see why eladrin is really nowhere as good as human. To be clear, even with powers, I use my regular weapon attack roll, with all feat etc. bonuses included?
With a power that has the Weapon keyword, you add:
the attribute listed
1/2 your level (rounded down)
proficiency bonus from the weapon
feat bonuses to weapon attack rolls that apply (expertise, for example)
enhancement bonuses from the weapon.

As I built this as a Str-based cleric, its attack roll with its powers is the same as a basic attack, so... less math.

Also, some questions about the build.
--Where is Heroic Effort? It's "multiple sources"
Racial ability that Humans get in the Essentials series of books (Heroes of the blah blah). In place of the extra at-will. I looked at the at-wills, and decided "righteous brand all the time" was a good tactic, another at-will was questionable.

--Can I take the sohei theme in addition to the akanûl background, or are they exclusive?
Themes are distinct from Backgrounds.

Themes are a way they decided to jazz up heroic tier starting in Dark Sun. Backgrounds came from PHB2, and are less mechanically dense.

The Akunul background is just a nice one. Arguably "born under a bad sign" is better.

--I still get Healing Word as part of my cleric class abilities, right?
Yep, I did not trade that away (don't think it is possible actually)

--How did I get comprehend languages? Is it possible to freely swap out the default gentle repose for it?
You get 2 free rituals, plus gentle repose I believe. Double check yourself.

I picked it because it seemed to match the scholar flavour.

--I think I get an additional at-will as a human. Would Battle Cleric's Mastery (Drag400 55) be a good choice, or would something else (Priest's Shield [PHB]) be better?
The only good at will I could find for you was Righteous Brand. The 2 temporary HP, or the 1 point of heal, was overly meh in my opinion. Grant +3 bonus to hits on nearby allies each round and every round, plus a decent whack of damage. Work to get flanking with an ally (so both of you get +2 to hit), and try to team up with the defender (so you can trigger your immediate actions between turns). Keep track of each allies HP, and if they are at (75%-6) HP or lower (basically bloodied or almost so), do a healing word on your turn (don't get into the habit of asking each player if they need healing) -- remember, it is 1/turn.

If you have an emergency, either use that channel divinity to heal everyone, or ready an action and use it to healing word off-your-turn (note that this moves you in initiative) for 2 heals in 1 round.

If you did born under a bad sign, your HP climbs to 30, but that is pushing it (having more HP than the defender seems impolite). Resist 2 fire/thunder/cold is neat enough (or swap it for a background that grants +2 to arcana or something).

GilesTheCleric

2014-05-30, 02:27 AM

Heroic Effort is in Heroes of the Fallen Lands. It substitutes the extra at-will for a +4 to hit.

You do, Backgrounds and Themes are two different things.

You do, every Cleric gets that.

One of the two free rituals, and you get Gentle Repose as a bonus ritual.

See awnser #1.
Okay, found it, thank you. I like having the different human races, it gives a bit more variety without having to go with a subrace like in 3.5.

One thing I don't think you've clarified: is this a one-shot with a group that normally runs 4e, or with a 3.5 group? If the former, they'll have access to the character builder, and you should just use that rather than trying to hunt everything down in separate books.

It's a pretty substantial spike, though things are a bit smoothed over with foes since you can fight higher or lower level foes within +/- 4 levels or so.

It's the other way around. Even when making a regular weapon attack, you treat it as just another at-will power you have. There is no way to not use a power, it's just some powers (like "Melee Basic Attack") are available to every class.

Basically, all those bonuses add to every power unless they explicitly only add to Melee Basic Attacks.
The group I'm playing with is a new one -- I only know the DM. I think they usually play PF, and maybe 4e. However, they're all very far away, and it would be impractical to meet up before the game. During the game we won't have internet access :/ That's also the reason why I like to make my own copies of everything, page numbers and everything included. If I can't haul my books around or don't have internet, I have images of all the stuff on my character sheets on my computer. Plus it's faster to look stuff up that way.

This is my first time ever playing 4e, and is for at least one of the other two party members as well. Our DM is very familiar with 4e.

Okay, having nothing but powers makes sense from a design perspective, and makes things a bit less confusing for me as well. So that means all I need to do is pay attention to the "weapon" attribute in the power, and whatever it says to add to [w], and I should know all I need to.

When I did the math, you ended up with more than 10 gp left I thought.

Yes, the essentials rules.

With a power that has the Weapon keyword, you add:
the attribute listed
1/2 your level (rounded down)
proficiency bonus from the weapon
feat bonuses to weapon attack rolls that apply (expertise, for example)
enhancement bonuses from the weapon.

As I built this as a Str-based cleric, its attack roll with its powers is the same as a basic attack, so... less math.

Racial ability that Humans get in the Essentials series of books (Heroes of the blah blah). In place of the extra at-will. I looked at the at-wills, and decided "righteous brand all the time" was a good tactic, another at-will was questionable.

Themes are distinct from Backgrounds.

Themes are a way they decided to jazz up heroic tier starting in Dark Sun. Backgrounds came from PHB2, and are less mechanically dense.

The Akunul background is just a nice one. Arguably "born under a bad sign" is better.

Yep, I did not trade that away (don't think it is possible actually)

You get 2 free rituals, plus gentle repose I believe. Double check yourself.

I picked it because it seemed to match the scholar flavour.

The only good at will I could find for you was Righteous Brand. The 2 temporary HP, or the 1 point of heal, was overly meh in my opinion. Grant +3 bonus to hits on nearby allies each round and every round, plus a decent whack of damage. Work to get flanking with an ally (so both of you get +2 to hit), and try to team up with the defender (so you can trigger your immediate actions between turns). Keep track of each allies HP, and if they are at (75%-6) HP or lower (basically bloodied or almost so), do a healing word on your turn (don't get into the habit of asking each player if they need healing) -- remember, it is 1/turn.

If you have an emergency, either use that channel divinity to heal everyone, or ready an action and use it to healing word off-your-turn (note that this moves you in initiative) for 2 heals in 1 round.

If you did born under a bad sign, your HP climbs to 30, but that is pushing it (having more HP than the defender seems impolite). Resist 2 fire/thunder/cold is neat enough (or swap it for a background that grants +2 to arcana or something).
I trust your judgement in picking things out. I'll go check out Born Under a Bad Sign, but I'll probably stick with your recommended akanûl background. I'm pretty familiar with FR (spent 2-3 years in a 3.5 FR game), but I never ran across that region/ethnicity. I'll have to delve into some lore to learn more about it. 4e didn't go back in time in FR, did it? I was pretty sure there was the whole spell plague thing, and that's the future of 3.5.

Player's handbook says that gentle repose is one of the the two rituals you get, unfortunately. I'm sure my DM would be okay with swapping it out regardless. Comprehend languages is, as you said, much more in tune with my character concept.

I might actually go with Born if it's a good hp increase like that -- I've just found out that our other two players will be a warlock and either an executioner or twf ranger. So I'll probably end up doing plenty of tanking. Thank you very much for recommending Battle Cleric's Lore in that case, I think! ^^

Thank you again also for spending so much time helping me out and digging around for things. I really appreciate it, and it should help give me a good idea of what a decent 4e cleric can do at level 1. So far, I'm getting the feeling that it's more powerful than a 3.5 cleric is at 1.