Charging Smite VS Special Mount

[Grayson01]

What is the Playgrounds Opinion on which is the stronger class feature: The Special Mount or the ACF from PHBII Charging Smite?

[Flickerdart]

Charging Smite has a much narrower optimization range. Smiting in general is crap, and it's not that hard to make charging attacks ridiculously huge without it. So making huge attacks huger is all it does.

The mount can suck (if you're just taking the stock warhorse like a chump) but it can also be really good as part of an ubermount build or on its own. Just make sure to use the rules for different special mounts in the back of the DMG - you are allowed to grab any creature of CR 3 less than your Paladin level (or 4 less if it flies) that is willing and able to carry a rider. When you consider how low CRs are compared to ECLs on some really cool monsters, it can play out like a better Leadership (a Nightmare comes 3 level early, for instance, and you can upgrade to a Cauchemar at level 15 while the Leadership guy never gets that).

[Angelalex242]

If you've got the draconomicon, you can and absolutely should be riding a gold dragon at high levels. Anything less would be uncivilized. Oh, sure, it'll be a very young gold, and a young gold at level 20, but a gold dragon nonetheless.

[Flickerdart]

If you've got the draconomicon, you can and absolutely should be riding a gold dragon at high levels. Anything less would be uncivilized. Oh, sure, it'll be a very young gold, and a young gold at level 20, but a gold dragon nonetheless.
Using the alternate mount rules in the DMG, you can have an Adult Gold dragon as a 20th level paladin (because it's CR16).

[Hazzardevil]

I quite using the Drakkenstead ACF from Dragon Magic. You get a flying dragon-esque mount, all without the ethical issues of banishing a sentient creature to the outer plains for a few hours each day.

[Angelalex242]

...Wow. A Very Young Gold (minimum age to ride) is CR 7. So you could be riding a Gold Dragon from level 11 on, by that rule.

I imagine the Draconomicon, being ECL based, is more balanced, however.

That said, if a GM was stupid enough to let me ride a dragon from level 11 on, I wouldn't correct him, particularly if he keeps getting older every time I level a couple times. Even though I suspect what happens is, you have the same dragon for the very young/young stages. Your dragon just happened to have his birthday at the time you hit level 13, but he won't have aged enough to hit juvenile by the time you hit level 15, so his older brother/sister gold dragon takes over. And that one's a juvenile who just happens to go young adult when you hit level 18. And finally, the mom or dad of the last two dragons takes over when you need an adult gold dragon at level 20.

Re:Banishing.

If you're going to let the Gold Dragon be a mount in the first place, I'd override the banish rule, and say the dragon just sticks around 24/7. Summoning from the celestial realms is for things like horses that can't take care of themselves. If you choose not to, however, it's easy enough to assume the Gold Dragon in question just chills out in Bahamut's realm whenever he's not working with you. Maybe that's part of the deal, Bahamut is personally training these gold dragons to be his champions in the world, and working with human (or other race) paladins is part of how they're supposed to learn humility and friendship for the small furless monkeys that are just as brave and fearless as they are. For there are some foes out there that even a dragon can't take without human (or demihuman) aide.

[Gemini476]

Charging Smite has a much narrower optimization range. Smiting in general is crap, and it's not that hard to make charging attacks ridiculously huge without it. So making huge attacks huger is all it does.

The mount can suck (if you're just taking the stock warhorse like a chump) but it can also be really good as part of an ubermount build or on its own. Just make sure to use the rules for different special mounts in the back of the DMG - you are allowed to grab any creature of CR 3 less than your Paladin level (or 4 less if it flies) that is willing and able to carry a rider. When you consider how low CRs are compared to ECLs on some really cool monsters, it can play out like a better Leadership (a Nightmare comes 3 level early, for instance, and you can upgrade to a Cauchemar at level 15 while the Leadership guy never gets that).

...Can a Paladin really have a Neutral Evil hellhorse as his special mount?

[Angelalex242]

I believe he's got that confused with the Blackguard, who can have a Nightmare as his fiendish companion.

But no, Paladins can't have evil mounts.

[Flickerdart]

...Can a Paladin really have a Neutral Evil hellhorse as his special mount?
Paladins of Slaughter and Tyranny could.

[ShurikVch]

Why not take both?

Say, go Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)

Also, you can try to multiclassing between Paladin and Paladin (Charging Smite)

[Flickerdart]

Why not take both?

Say, go Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)

Also, you can try to multiclassing between Paladin and Paladin (Charging Smite)
Because you can't use a Prestigious class in the same campaign as the regular class?

[Red Fel]

Because you can't use a Prestigious class in the same campaign as the regular class?

This. In fact, the rules explicitly say:
If you use any of the variant classes presented here, the standard version of the class should be unavailable. For instance, you shouldn't include both the standard paladin character class and the paladin prestige class in the same game.(Emphasis added.)

That said, my 2cp? Charging Smite. Two reasons. First, a mount is not usable everywhere. Particularly while spelunking (something adventurers tend to do with relative frequency). Also, the mount goes away after awhile - its benefit is temporary. Charging Smite is usable anytime you could charge, any number of times per day. Second, Charging Smite does something really smart with smite - if you miss, your smite isn't used. It's a great way to conserve smite.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

This. In fact, the rules explicitly say:(Emphasis added.)

That said, my 2cp? Charging Smite. Two reasons. First, a mount is not usable everywhere. Particularly while spelunking (something adventurers tend to do with relative frequency). Also, the mount goes away after awhile - its benefit is temporary. Charging Smite is usable anytime you could charge, any number of times per day. Second, Charging Smite does something really smart with smite - if you miss, your smite isn't used. It's a great way to conserve smite.

To be that person...

It doesn't say you can't use both in a campaign just that you shouldn't.

I kinda like the idea of playing a paladin who takes prestige paladin for more paladin. Letting them stack won't break the game all that hard after all ;).

Though I did like my crusader who got a free prestige class (houserule) and took prestige paladin just for the paladin of it.

[Red Fel]

To be that person...

It doesn't say you can't use both in a campaign just that you shouldn't.

I kinda like the idea of playing a paladin who takes prestige paladin for more paladin. Letting them stack won't break the game all that hard after all ;).

Except that two class features with the same name and function explicitly don't stack, first off. And that is RAW. So every PrPal entry that says "as the standard Paladin ability of the same name" fails to add anything new. You don't get an extra Special Mount, you don't get double Cha to saves, you don't get a double aura or double Detect Evil (I don't even know what that would look like). All they can do is progress existing features, and even that isn't at a truly worthwhile rate. Further, PrPal actually reduces your already inferior caster progression by cutting it in half. By the earliest level you can enter PrPal (Paladin 5), you already have every class feature PrPal grants except for Remove Disease - so why do it? If anything, it makes you less Paladin, not more.


Though I did like my crusader who got a free prestige class (houserule) and took prestige paladin just for the paladin of it.

... That, I could dig. I mean, yeah, we're ignoring the Protection from Evil and Turn Undead requirements, but I could actually see a Crusader taking his "divine inspiration" thing to the next level and going Pally.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Except that two class features with the same name and function explicitly don't stack, first off. And that is RAW. So every PrPal entry that says "as the standard Paladin ability of the same name" fails to add anything new. You don't get an extra Special Mount, you don't get double Cha to saves, you don't get a double aura or double Detect Evil (I don't even know what that would look like). All they can do is progress existing features, and even that isn't at a truly worthwhile rate. Further, PrPal actually reduces your already inferior caster progression by cutting it in half. By the earliest level you can enter PrPal (Paladin 5), you already have every class feature PrPal grants except for Remove Disease - so why do it? If anything, it makes you less Paladin, not more.



... That, I could dig. I mean, yeah, we're ignoring the Protection from Evil and Turn Undead requirements, but I could actually see a Crusader taking his "divine inspiration" thing to the next level and going Pally.


Oh yeah I meant to say let them stack, won't really hurt anything. Or, allow one or both pally trade out features for ACFs. I forget which DM it was but I played in a game where a player did that. I think the pally and PRC pally levels stacked for when you got spells so that didn't actually change.

Well he was a straight 20 crusader with prestige paladin for RP mostly, totally got knighted by a beholder queen. The PRC got gestalted into the crusader for free. Others took more powerful prcs but my PC didn't really need to.

[ShurikVch]

Because you can't use a Prestigious class in the same campaign as the regular class? OK, then how about Paladin of Freedom (Charging Smite)/Holy Liberator ?