How pissed would you be?

[Grayson01]

Okay so thinking of running a campaign. So I am thinkng of having the PCs in a purgatory realm, haven't quite decided if everyone who dies must go through purgatory or if it's something special. But I am thinking of having the PCs a live at the start but TPKing them shortly into the game. Maybe session one or two. So as a player how pissed would you be if the DM intentionally killed off your whole party, even if it's to set up the larger story ark?

[Rubik]

Okay so thinking of running a campaign. So I am thinkng of having the PCs in a purgatory realm, haven't quite decided if everyone who dies must go through purgatory or if it's something special. But I am thinking of having the PCs a live at the start but TPKing them shortly into the game. Maybe session one or two. So as a player how pissed would you be if the DM intentionally killed off your whole party, even if it's to set up the larger story ark?I think you should warn the party: "There's every chance that some of you guys are going to die shortly after the beginning of the game, so make sure you're capable of being Raised or Resurrected."

Then they know that they'll probably get ganked, but if you word it correctly they won't know why you wanted to do so, and so you can still keep the direction you want to follow secret.

[Yorrin]

I think that as soon as I realized that it was necessary for the plot I'd be cool with it. I mean, I've done similar stuff to my players and once they figured out what was up there were no hard feelings and the results were rather memorable.

[Bloodgruve]

Don't kill um off right away. Build um up then pull it all away, they're more invested that way ;) Give them a hard challenge, even if they can't win let um think they have a chance, then when the party has bit the dust and you spend a few moments of silence fade into purgatory. If the PC's figure out they had no choice in the matter the game is diminished IMHO, but if you 'scramble to salvage a TPK' then that could be fun in their eyes.

Just a thought. Nothing scares a PC more then losing stuff like loot, stats or levels.

GL, sounds fun

Blood~

[Flickerdart]

Why not just start with "you died" in the first place? Saves everyone the waste of time going through a pre-determined combat.

[Broken Crown]

If the fundamental premise of the campaign is that the PCs are all dead, that's the sort of thing that should be announced at the outset, before character creation. Not all players would necessarily be interested in such a campaign, and if you weren't up-front about it, it might feel a bit like a bait-and-switch to your players. Personally, I might very well drop out of the game at that point.

Also, if the players haven't bought into the theme, there's almost certainly going to be at least one character who will prove to be impossible to kill without resorting to DM fiat. And then the other players, not wanting to be left on the sidelines, will try to bring in new characters, and the Purgatory campaign will end up being abandoned as the live characters go on doing their own thing.

To avoid any misunderstanding, it might be better just to start the game with everyone dead.

[Bakkan]

I agree with Flickerdart and Broken Crown. Either start off with them dead, or allow them to roleplay the battle they died in, without rolling, so that they have some agency as to the details of their death (whether they went out heroically or as a coward, whether they regretted their life or felt content to die, etc.).

[JellyPooga]

Best campaign I ever ran? One where I TPK'd the original party after a couple of sessions and had the "real" campaign be a follow up of the "introduction" that the PC's played their way through. Both I and my players agree that in about 6 years of roleplaying together, that was the most memorable campaign we've played yet.

It has to be carefully done, though. In my campaign, the "bait" characters were pre-gens and the original point of playing that way was to introduce the players to a new system. The players then got to make their own "switch" characters for the campaign proper.

You've also got to make the pay-off worth it. There's no point in doing this big set up for just another dungeon bash type of game.

[Baroknik]

Look into the Ghostwalk Campaign Setting. It deals with playing as ghosts and getting revived a lot with no xp penalty (if you are an eidolon). It may help give the mechanical spin you need.

[Rubik]

Look into the Ghostwalk Campaign Setting. It deals with playing as ghosts and getting revived a lot with no xp penalty (if you are an eidolon). It may help give the mechanical spin you need.It also helps if you avoid using the ghost rules, because they suck.

...which is kind of horrible, since that's the entire point of the campaign world.

[Krazzman]

Seconding the notion of let them start dead.

I had started to plan something similar. Basically the BBEG sacrificed the players (without them knowing each other) and it would've been around 5 minutes of introductionary struggle per player. Then they all awake in "Limbo" and due to their thirst for vengeance get to come back and try to foil the BBEG's plans.


But I never got it started. Mostly because I felt that the way I wanted to present it sucked...
Good luck.

[Brookshw]

I've thought about doing this to my players with no warning, but they've also played with me for over a decade so the familiarity gives some extra leeway where trust comes in and knowing their tolerances. Since you're asking the question I assume its a semi new group to some extent. How would you run it is the question? Are you homebrewing/house ruling petitioners? Where is the campaign taking place? A custom plane? Carceri? If you're just changing the backdrop but everything else is the same its not a big deal but the execution is pretty critical. The amount of forewarning you give them seems pretty related to how exactly you want to pull this off.

[Killer Angel]

I think that as soon as I realized that it was necessary for the plot I'd be cool with it. I mean, I've done similar stuff to my players and once they figured out what was up there were no hard feelings and the results were rather memorable.


Why not just start with "you died" in the first place? Saves everyone the waste of time going through a pre-determined combat.

I agree with both of you.
I've done it to my players and (when they realized the reasons behind) they liked it very much, BUT it wasn't at the beginning of the campaign... it happened basically at the end (after 5-6 years of playing), so they could enter the realm of Gods to save their world

[Arc_knight25]

I personally like JellyPooga's idea of having pre gen characters to start.

Before you make your pre gen's though, get backstory from characters. Make sure they have people that you can use for your pre gen characters. So all of your characters are now envolved in there own past.

As to how pissed I would be I wouldn't. I trust my DM enough not to out right kill everyone just because they can for no good reason. Normally if we do TPK and we all agree we still want our toons, DM's i've played with will fiat/finesse away to get us all alive again, albet we have lost something either items/level/or plot device.

[lytokk]

I like to think that most players are mature, understanding people. Let them know what kind of game you want to run. Let them know that eventually there's going to be a party wipe and then they'll be playing through purgatory. Just don't let them know when.

My thoughts on the matter is the big bad has a weapon that when dealing a killing blow, sends souls to a specific plane instead of their normal final resting place, and now its up to the players to find their way out in order to destroy the weapon so that all the souls remaining there can be freed. I have no clue as the motivation to do this, but prb powering some ancient artifact that runs on souls.

[Abd al-Azrad]

It might be going against the grain a little, but I really like this idea. Absolutely it depends on the execution and the maturity of your players - you don't want it to feel too forced, for instance. Hints from the beginning are a good way to go - perhaps include "death-speakers" or other spiritual media as a common feature in the game.

One idea I started playing with, reading your concept, would be to make sure that the transition from "alive game" to "dead game" is not set in stone. Don't necessarily introduce a TPK fight. Instead, make it known that your game will include unusually lethal fights, and that the players should be prepared to replace characters...

...and then, after one such particularly lethal fight, introduce the second campaign world, the purgatory world, with its own adventure that interacts with the mortal world adventure. Then alternate game sessions between the living world party and the purgatory world party, with each player playing one character in each world.

I dunno, probably too complicated that way. But whatever the case, I do think your concept has a lot of potential if done well.

[Grayson01]

I've thought about doing this to my players with no warning, but they've also played with me for over a decade so the familiarity gives some extra leeway where trust comes in and knowing their tolerances. Since you're asking the question I assume its a semi new group to some extent. How would you run it is the question? Are you homebrewing/house ruling petitioners? Where is the campaign taking place? A custom plane? Carceri? If you're just changing the backdrop but everything else is the same its not a big deal but the execution is pretty critical. The amount of forewarning you give them seems pretty related to how exactly you want to pull this off.

I am thinking of going with everyone who dies in battle/violently goes to Purgetory. (It would be a homebrewed plane).
Mechanically it would just be another plane. For all intents and purposes they would be "Alive" in Purgetory.
They would start at level 3 and I would transition them somewhere between 4-6th level.
As to what would happen campaign wise in Purgatory still working that through. Maybe campaigning to move on to the next plane.

[Lord of Shadows]

All good ideas so far. My 2 coppers...

If you want to start them out "alive," make the world a very, very dangerous place, perhaps a world on the brink of extinction, or under the thumb of some overlord, or something, and emphasize that death is everywhere. Tell them to not be surprised at all if they all end up dead on the first adventure. (We had a DM one time start us all out as slaves on a sinking slaver ship; it was actually pretty good, and came with built in suspense)

Another set-up to lessen the blow of them thinking they have lost their characters, is to describe ahead of time that there is a part of the campaign setting that is "this place" ["Purgatory," although that name may conjure up preconceptions of its own] where people go when they die, and death is not the end of the adventure, but is perhaps the start of a new one.

You could have their deaths be the result of a "final" conflict with the BBEG (at least, the BBEG thinks it is final) and then weave their afterlife into how the BBEG is eventually defeated. Perhaps they are going to haunt the BBEG the rest of his/her/its miserable life. Perhaps they get to arrange for the BBEG to meet an untimely demise and then draw him/her/it into "their" realm of Purgatory. Imagine his surprise when... well, you get the idea.

Enjoy. Sounds like fun.

[Bronk]

I think I would be pretty miffed, at least for a while, if this was pulled on me, especially if I had asked ahead of time and been given the wrong idea. I think there would be three reasons for my reaction.

First, I would have been thinking about my character with its future in mind... its goals, motivations, and so on. All of those would be out the window once dead.

Second, I would have made my character based on that, and then spent a lot of time rolling it up, statting it out, buying gear, and choosing a class. Most of that time would be wasted, unless you entered purgatory with all of your possessions, including weapons, armor, or spell pouches for casters. If not, I'd be lamenting not having chosen to be a psion, a sorcerer with the eschew material components feat, or a vow of poverty monk.

Third, I'd have a hard time getting over the shock of dying in the first place. Losing characters is no fun, but the worst is that time when you're certain of death, and you've been asked for what is probably your last action, and you're looking over your character sheet with a terrible feeling of dread, looking for something, anything, to save you, or even save the other PCs if they go first.

Yeah... They can make their characters with forknowledge, and even metagame a bit before their deaths if they want to give them selves a leg up in the afterworld. In fact, if one of them has an ancestor feat of some kind, maybe they get to meet them! Or if they have a legacy weapon that they end up taking with them, maybe its former owners show up and try to take it, or test them for worthiness or something.

So, I'd vote letting them in on the secret. Better that there be no hard feelings.

[bekeleven]

Can I make a suggestion? It's similar to "start dead" but you may like it more.

Start with a last stand. As session one begins, say, "Let's play the battle where you all die." Then everyone can go out heroically, maybe forming a retreating army/town's rearguard against a pile of demons or something. Then they look awesome, you get to kill them, and nobody has rugs pulled out.

[Rubik]

Can I make a suggestion? It's similar to "start dead" but you may like it more.

Start with a last stand. As session one begins, say, "Let's play the battle where you all die." Then everyone can go out heroically, maybe forming a retreating army/town's rearguard against a pile of demons or something. Then they look awesome, you get to kill them, and nobody has rugs pulled out.I like this. I like this a lot.

[Melcar]

If you end the game when they die, meaning rolling new chars, I would be pretty pissed, but if they wake up dead in some fugue plane where they continue gaming as they souls/spirit/ghost/ethereal/incorporeal form, I think that could be a nice twist. I have tried something a bit similar, but we did not actually play as dead...

Bu be careful. Make sure, that they know that when ever they leave the tavern, they risk there lifes. Just make sure that they are not too attached to their characters, and if so make sure they have a ca. 50% chance of getting back. You dont have to explictly tell them that but hint it.

[Someonelse]

I think it's important to start the game dead. I once ran an evil planescape game that began with the PCs standing in line waiting to get into hell. The line was hundreds of miles long and getting longer as, every few seconds another creature would appear at the back of the line. A marilith came along and offered them a chance to put off an eternity in hell for a little while by working for her.
The point is, any time you have a game that essentially begins with a cut scene don't try to play the cut scene. Just describe what happened and move on. When the game is on and players are free to do things and roll dice you have to be willing to roll with it. You can't have a predetermined ending in mind.

[ArqArturo]

I'd be very pissed, and if there's gonna be a player TPK, I probably would not force it. I had done so in the past, and the result is not pretty.

[Grayson01]

I think I would be pretty miffed, at least for a while, if this was pulled on me, especially if I had asked ahead of time and been given the wrong idea. I think there would be three reasons for my reaction.

First, I would have been thinking about my character with its future in mind... its goals, motivations, and so on. All of those would be out the window once dead.

Second, I would have made my character based on that, and then spent a lot of time rolling it up, statting it out, buying gear, and choosing a class. Most of that time would be wasted, unless you entered purgatory with all of your possessions, including weapons, armor, or spell pouches for casters. If not, I'd be lamenting not having chosen to be a psion, a sorcerer with the eschew material components feat, or a vow of poverty monk.

Third, I'd have a hard time getting over the shock of dying in the first place. Losing characters is no fun, but the worst is that time when you're certain of death, and you've been asked for what is probably your last action, and you're looking over your character sheet with a terrible feeling of dread, looking for something, anything, to save you, or even save the other PCs if they go first.

Yeah... They can make their characters with forknowledge, and even metagame a bit before their deaths if they want to give them selves a leg up in the afterworld. In fact, if one of them has an ancestor feat of some kind, maybe they get to meet them! Or if they have a legacy weapon that they end up taking with them, maybe its former owners show up and try to take it, or test them for worthiness or something.

So, I'd vote letting them in on the secret. Better that there be no hard feelings.

I thought about the equipment part to they wouldn't have anything other then mundane equipment. And they would know about Purgetory a head of time and what happens to those who die in battle/violently.
It would also be dying/waking up in the other plane "alive". There would be no negatives to being dead other then passing from the world before.
But starting to think starting off as already being dead might be less upsetting.

[Shining Wrath]

Character generation and builds usually depend upon the campaign. So the characters need to know they will be spending most of their time not on the Prime Material plane before session 1.

Is there any reason why the initial TPK has to be a surprise, or even fought out? Tell them the campaign is in Purgatory, and have them describe their lives prior to being killed. If you want, you can have a "cut scene" but with no drama - the BBEG is too B & B, not to mention E, and squashes them like flies. Party of ECL 3 characters gets hit by Cloudkill, followed by instructions to a couple of CR 4 minions to kill anyone who emerges from the cloud (in case of Warforged), and then BBEG walks off to do more E. Cackling, of course. That way the characters, in game, have a reason to hate the BBEG.

Then they, perhaps, have to earn the right to be sent back to Prime as champions of Good, which means working through Purgatory and being purified of their 'sins'. A quick brush-up on Dante is probably in order.

[icefractal]

I'd vote for telling them upfront about this, and do the battle they died just as description, don't play it out. The main reasons are:
1) If they don't know, all their goals / connections may be tied to being alive, and being up in purgatory ****s that all up.
2) If you play out the battle, then it's entirely possible that a character will get away, and if you kill them by fiat it produces feelings of railroading. In fact, just having an unwinnable, unescapable battle without buy-in would feel like railroading.

So if you spring this suddenly, it's likely that you end up with some combination of short term frustration (from the feeling of railroading) and long term frustration (from character goals/personality being negated) from one or more players. Not a good combination.

But in terms of the concept, I don't see any problem. I'd be totally on board with a game in purgatory if that's how it was pitched.

[FidgetySquirrel]

As a player who's been TPK'd for the sake of plot development, I can say that as long as the players get to keep their PCs, they probably won't care. If it's well executed, you'll probably even get kudos for such an unexpected move.

[Synar]

I like this. I like this a lot.

I triple this.


(Even if other mentionned it before.)

[Deathcharge01]

Don't kill um off right away. Build um up then pull it all away, they're more invested that way ;) Give them a hard challenge, even if they can't win let um think they have a chance, then when the party has bit the dust and you spend a few moments of silence fade into purgatory. If the PC's figure out they had no choice in the matter the game is diminished IMHO, but if you 'scramble to salvage a TPK' then that could be fun in their eyes.

Just a thought. Nothing scares a PC more then losing stuff like loot, stats or levels.

GL, sounds fun

Blood~

You sir are the devil....I really don't care for loot, but my stats and my caster levels....oh boy...

[Rubik]

I really don't care for lootHEATHEN! Whitetext

[Deathcharge01]

HEATHEN! Whitetext

I'm sorry for blaspheming, but take 90% of my loot everyday. Just leave my stats and caster levels alone son.