Creating a Hydra Boss!

[Xaroth]

So as it says in the title, I'm creating a Hydra boss for the dungeon the PCs are in at the moment, and I'm intending to create a 20+ headed Hydra (Gargantuan size because that many heads would look cramped on a Huge body).

The party is as follows:
Mindflayer
Minotaur
Fire Giant
Giant Owl
Frost Giant
Yuan-Ti Pureblood

The party's sitting at a team CR of 16, but I'm not sure exactly who has how many levels in what (save for the Mindflayer and the Yuan-Ti) because I just woke up and the other PCs (except one) are still asleep and across the ocean from me.

Due to the Mindflayer's over-poweredness, I worked with the character to tone it down. It doesn't have any of its psionic abilities, but it's capable of using Telepathy.

I'm intending for this Hydra to be intentionally stupidly powerful because they've blasted through everything I've thrown at them so far, including a wave of 50 zombies and 4 dretches in the same encounter (damnit Clerics).

Anybody got any tips? I'm thinking 25 heads.


After descending the grand stairwell into darkness, you see... nothing. To those with Darkvision, you see a lever on the right-hand wall.
*they pull it*
After pulling the lever, torches light around the walls, starting from you and ending at the pond on the other side of the enormous room. From the pond, a single malicious head is poking out of the water looking at you. Upon being noticed, the head disappears. It's silent. Suddenly a huge crash is heard, and a monster as tall as the room itself with 25 heads bursts from the surface, climbing out of the body of water impatiently, as though it has been waiting for this moment for an eon. It shakes the water from its muscled body, and then sits still. Simultaenously, the whipping, writhing heads extend towards you, emitting a roar as loud and as bloodthirsty as a dragon betrayed by its own. Roll initiatives.

^That's the sample encounter I had in mind.

[Dr. Cliché]

With regard to the party, what are their classes (or are they pure monsters)?

[Xaroth]

With regard to the party, what are their classes (or are they pure monsters)?

The Mindflayer is Archivist/Demonwracker/Bard with a floating level he hasn't invested yet, I'm not sure what levels though at the moment.
The Yuan-Ti is Ranger 10/Warblade 1/Dragon Disciple (Red) 3.
Fire Giant has Cleric levels.
Frost Giant I have absolutely no idea.
Minotaur has Bard and Mounteback.
Giant Owl has levels in Druid and Ranger, I think. Definitely Druid, not sure about Ranger.

EDIT: I should mention that I'm intending for this to be a high-level campaign so I'm kinda throwing XP all over the place.

[Xaroth]

The Fire Giant is Cleric 13.

[MrNobody]

Here's my suggestion.
Take a 12 headed hydra and add the multiheaded creature (+ lernean version, Savage species pg. 125-126).
Being huge, your hydra will get 11 additional heads, with a total of 23 ( and a possible max of 46 for severed). It will gain +11 HD and +22 CON (+121 HP), and the fast healing will raise to 32/round.

AC raises to 33 (+11 to natural). Also, with the lernean version


[...] creatures have bodies that are immune to attack. The only way to slay a Lernaean creature is to sever all its heads.

So she will have this extra defence.

With this template you will have a CR of 11 (base)+6 (11 heads)+2 (lernean)=19

EDIT: on the attack side, you will have 23 bites +28 for (2d8+6 each)... suitable for power attack and improved natural attack to enhance!

EDIT2: forgot you want it gargantuan... that raises th nr. of heads and all the bonuses...

[KillianHawkeye]

Just don't do what one of my DMs did when we encountered a hydra and unexpectedly killed it with a lucky critical from the guy wielding a giant hammer, which was to bring out ANOTHER hydra just to spite us and stop the combat encounter from ending too early. :smallannoyed:

[Gemini476]

...So what kind of hodgepodge monster rules are using that an ECL 20 Yuan-ti and an ECL 32 Fire Giant are in the same party?

How do you even get such a combination? How on earth are those two characters so close in class level when the racial chassis is so incredibly different?
Tell me your houserules, Mr. Xaroth.

[John Longarrow]

Xaroth,
I'd suggest making it an effegy hydra (effegy template from CA). This avoids the party doing the old one-shot with a ray of stupidity. Also avoids some of the other ability damage tricks that can take a high level fight and make it over quickly.

[Vhaidara]

John, it then loses it's Con scores, and, I believe, its fast healing. Which is a massive part of hydras.

I second the plan for Multi-headed, but I also submit Half-Goristo (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) (becomes huge for more heads and damage) .

Or, you could just use a Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) 12 headed headed hydra. Yes, it is epic. They should be able to figure out how to deal with it.

[Amidus Drexel]

John, it then loses it's Con scores, and, I believe, its fast healing. Which is a massive part of hydras.

Fast healing is independent of a Con score - you're thinking of regeneration. There are a handful of undead and constructs that have fast healing - vampires, for example.

[Xaroth]

...So what kind of hodgepodge monster rules are using that an ECL 20 Yuan-ti and an ECL 32 Fire Giant are in the same party?

How do you even get such a combination? How on earth are those two characters so close in class level when the racial chassis is so incredibly different?
Tell me your houserules, Mr. Xaroth.

RulesMY RULES
I don't go by Racial Hit Die for ECL. I add the LA.
The Fire Giant and the Frost Giant were both significantly reduced. Seriously, I wouldn't have one thing with 4d8 and another with 14d8.

That's really it, I guess.

[Xaroth]

Xaroth,
I'd suggest making it an effegy hydra (effegy template from CA). This avoids the party doing the old one-shot with a ray of stupidity. Also avoids some of the other ability damage tricks that can take a high level fight and make it over quickly.

Complete Arcane or Complete Adventurer? Also, what page?


John, it then loses it's Con scores, and, I believe, its fast healing. Which is a massive part of hydras.

I second the plan for Multi-headed, but I also submit Half-Goristo (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) (becomes huge for more heads and damage) .

Or, you could just use a Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) 12 headed headed hydra. Yes, it is epic. They should be able to figure out how to deal with it.

OH DEAR GOD THE PARAGON TEMPLATE IS RIDICULOUS.

I LOVE IT.


Here's my suggestion.
Take a 12 headed hydra and add the multiheaded creature (+ lernean version, Savage species pg. 125-126).
Being huge, your hydra will get 11 additional heads, with a total of 23 ( and a possible max of 46 for severed). It will gain +11 HD and +22 CON (+121 HP), and the fast healing will raise to 32/round.

AC raises to 33 (+11 to natural). Also, with the lernean version

So she will have this extra defence.

With this template you will have a CR of 11 (base)+6 (11 heads)+2 (lernean)=19

EDIT: on the attack side, you will have 23 bites +28 for (2d8+6 each)... suitable for power attack and improved natural attack to enhance!

EDIT2: forgot you want it gargantuan... that raises th nr. of heads and all the bonuses...

...Multiheaded Learnean Paragon? c:

Also, unless if the Gargantuan thing can be achieved through other means I did intend for it to just be magically enhanced to one size larger.

[MrNobody]

...Multiheaded Learnean Paragon? c:

Also, unless if the Gargantuan thing can be achieved through other means I did intend for it to just be magically enhanced to one size larger.

This Multiheaded lernean paragon hydra will be a real monster (over 300HP, over 50 AC, and that's only the beginning)... if you want it gargantuan just enhance the size, don't add anything else.
I suggest no magic (is dispellable). Put gargantuan size and add the "augmented" subtype.

i wouldn't use paragon template, it seem too much...

[Xaroth]

This Multiheaded lernean paragon hydra will be a real monster (over 300HP, over 50 AC, and that's only the beginning)... if you want it gargantuan just enhance the size, don't add anything else.
I suggest no magic (is dispellable). Put gargantuan size and add the "augmented" subtype.

i wouldn't use paragon template, it seem too much...

That's all the more reason to use it. I want to show my PCs that they need to know when to run, and that even though they're blowing through what I'm throwing at them it will most certainly NOT be easy all the time.

[Red Fel]

So, you're saying that the PCs hit a switch, some torches light up...

And then Hydra comes out of the shadows? Hail Hydra.

... I'll show myself out...

[paperarmor]

Make it a Kaiju (template in Dragon 289) it gives a butload of abilities and crazy stats and increases size as well.

[John Longarrow]

Complete Arcane or Complete Adventurer? Also, what page?

Complete Arcane (IIRC page 156?).

Main reason is Hydras are very hard to kill at low levels, but get dropped as soon as anyone figures out they are very easy to ability damage. Drop their dex or int to 0 and they are very easy to kill.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Give it the feats Snatch, Improved Snatch, and Multisnatch, the latter two are in the Draconomicon. This allows it to grab anyone it bites who's at least two size categories smaller than it is, and just the head that grabs them is considered grappled. Whenever it makes its bites that head just rolls to damage the grabbed character. Other heads can attack a grabbed character as though from outside the grapple, so they don't get any Dex/dodge bonuses to AC.

Make the fight in an underwater tunnel that the party must swim through to reach the 'last' room. The water should be murky enough that they don't notice the hydra until it's too late. It should wait until a few swim past it, then make AoOs on them as they move by plus get a surprise round to make more attacks. Be sure it's making all of its bites on every AoO. There can be a small alcove where it can put one head out of the water to get a breath, but it can be out of the PCs' reach and view.

Bonus points if you put a permanent Wall of Greater Dispel Magic right in their path as they swim through, just before they reach it.

[Xaroth]

So, you're saying that the PCs hit a switch, some torches light up...

And then Hydra comes out of the shadows? Hail Hydra.

... I'll show myself out...

HAIL HYDRA

But I suppose the shadows is one way to describe it even though it came out of the pond.

[Xaroth]

Give it the feats Snatch, Improved Snatch, and Multisnatch, the latter two are in the Draconomicon. This allows it to grab anyone it bites who's at least two size categories smaller than it is, and just the head that grabs them is considered grappled. Whenever it makes its bites that head just rolls to damage the grabbed character. Other heads can attack a grabbed character as though from outside the grapple, so they don't get any Dex/dodge bonuses to AC.

Make the fight in an underwater tunnel that the party must swim through to reach the 'last' room. The water should be murky enough that they don't notice the hydra until it's too late. It should wait until a few swim past it, then make AoOs on them as they move by plus get a surprise round to make more attacks. Be sure it's making all of its bites on every AoO. There can be a small alcove where it can put one head out of the water to get a breath, but it can be out of the PCs' reach and view.

Bonus points if you put a permanent Wall of Greater Dispel Magic right in their path as they swim through, just before they reach it.

I'm intending for it to be a multi-stage fight, i.e. After a certain number of heads are severed it dives underwater, but how would I go about giving it water breathing outside of magic?

[Red Fel]

I'm intending for it to be a multi-stage fight, i.e. After a certain number of heads are severed it dives underwater, but how would I go about giving it water breathing outside of magic?

Amphibious Template (Stormwrack)? Grants the (Aquatic) subtype, a swim speed, -2 Dex, +8 to Swim and the ability to take 10 Swim checks at any time, and the ability to breathe air and water equally well.

[Xaroth]

Complete Arcane (IIRC page 156?).

Main reason is Hydras are very hard to kill at low levels, but get dropped as soon as anyone figures out they are very easy to ability damage. Drop their dex or int to 0 and they are very easy to kill.

I doubt the PCs have thought of ability damage, but the main thing I'm disliking about the Effigy template is that it's literally clockwork. From my understanding of that, they can just cast a metal bending spell and break the entire thing. Or remove a gear here and there. There's also the obedience thing, I'm sure there's some way to convince it that you're actually its master, at which point it pretty much belongs to the PC.

[John Longarrow]

I'm intending for it to be a multi-stage fight, i.e. After a certain number of heads are severed it dives underwater, but how would I go about giving it water breathing outside of magic?

One more reason to make it an effegy??? :xykon:

Or if you were really evil, make it undead....

[VoxRationis]

Isn't Lernean redundant? In 3.0, hydras didn't get fast healing and head regrowth by default, so you could kill them without the whole "burn the stumps" trick, and only certain "Lernean" hydras had the whole affair. But in 3.5, the non-Lernean hydras were dropped.

[Xaroth]

Amphibious Template (Stormwrack)? Grants the (Aquatic) subtype, a swim speed, -2 Dex, +8 to Swim and the ability to take 10 Swim checks at any time, and the ability to breathe air and water equally well.

Can you have more than one subtype? I'm planning on making it Gargantuan and just saying that its subtype is Augmented.

[Vaz]

RulesMY RULES
I don't go by Racial Hit Die for ECL. I add the LA.
The Fire Giant and the Frost Giant were both significantly reduced. Seriously, I wouldn't have one thing with 4d8 and another with 14d8.

That's really it, I guess.

And no-one said "ooh, let's go Black Ethergaunt"? Nice.


And yes, more than one subtype is possible. Look at Demons and Devils for example. Lawful, Evil, Extraplanar, among others.

[Xaroth]

Isn't Lernean redundant? In 3.0, hydras didn't get fast healing and head regrowth by default, so you could kill them without the whole "burn the stumps" trick, and only certain "Lernean" hydras had the whole affair. But in 3.5, the non-Lernean hydras were dropped.

MM v3.5 pg. 155:
A hydra can be killed either by severing all its heads or by slaying its body.

[Vhaidara]

I doubt the PCs have thought of ability damage, but the main thing I'm disliking about the Effigy template is that it's literally clockwork. From my understanding of that, they can just cast a metal bending spell and break the entire thing. Or remove a gear here and there. There's also the obedience thing, I'm sure there's some way to convince it that you're actually its master, at which point it pretty much belongs to the PC.

I'm pretty sure those spells don't work on creatures. And also, just pump its Will Save.


Can you have more than one subtype? I'm planning on making it Gargantuan and just saying that its subtype is Augmented.

Yeah, I think there's a creature with all 4 alignment subtypes in some book, and even in core, devils have [Lawful, Evil, Extraplanar].

[John Longarrow]

I doubt the PCs have thought of ability damage, but the main thing I'm disliking about the Effigy template is that it's literally clockwork. From my understanding of that, they can just cast a metal bending spell and break the entire thing. Or remove a gear here and there. There's also the obedience thing, I'm sure there's some way to convince it that you're actually its master, at which point it pretty much belongs to the PC.

Xaroth,
It is a construct with all the magic immunities that implies. Can't just go and convince it your its master any more than you could an iron golem. Likewise you can't cast a "Metal bending" spell to break it.

[Xaroth]

And no-one said "ooh, let's go Black Ethergaunt"? Nice.

And yes, more than one subtype is possible. Look at Demons and Devils for example. Lawful, Evil, Extraplanar, among others.

Oh yeah, forgot about that.


What's a black ethergaunt?
I was only allowing an LA of 5 or lower. The PC for the mindflayer REALLY WANTED TO BE A MINDFLAYER, so I worked with him to nerf the **** out of it down to an LA of +4

[Xaroth]

Xaroth,
It is a construct with all the magic immunities that implies. Can't just go and convince it your its master any more than you could an iron golem. Likewise you can't cast a "Metal bending" spell to break it.

Hm...
I'm still skeptical. Could you list all of the pros and cons of it? Sorry if it's a bother, I'm just not wanting the PCs to turn a 25 headed hydra into a grandfather clock.

[Xaroth]

I'm pretty sure those spells don't work on creatures. And also, just pump its Will Save..

Fair enough. Still skeptical, but still.

Does anybody know where I can find the Kaiju template?

[Vaz]

Oh yeah, forgot about that.


What's a black ethergaunt?
I was only allowing an LA of 5 or lower. The PC for the mindflayer REALLY WANTED TO BE A MINDFLAYER, so I worked with him to nerf the **** out of it down to an LA of +4


A Black Ethergaunt is a creature from the Fiend Folio with LA+4 and 16HD, IIRC, but casts as a 17th level wizard, basically, you'd be giving someone, for the cost of LA+4, and the lack of certain racial benefits etc, the ability to cast 9th level spells right from the off. I said "Nice" because either your players were kind to you, or, like you, they weren't aware of it.

Dragons, to a lesser extent, would allow similar breakage.

[Phelix-Mu]

In a campaign I was part of, the pcs managed to give some Ti-Khana Hydras the venomfire buff spell. Can't recall if this is really rules-legal, but the idea was that venomfire works on things with poisonous attacks, and Ti-Khana is a template that gives reptilian creatures a poisonous attack. I think the logic was that both things (venomfire and ti-khana) were related to yuan-ti, and there was an entire yuan-ti arc in the campaign, so maybe the DM just let it fly by Rule of Cool.

Anyway, the suggestion would be that you could give the hydra the ti-khana template and an item of venomfire to use. Depending on the CL of the item, it could deal a truly mind-blowing amount of damage.

Ti-khana template (Fiend Folio, I believe) also has a bunch of interesting flavor, in case you are looking to hijack some justification for the existence of this monstrosity. To summarize, the yuan-ti believe snakes/reptiles are the bomb, and so they engage in magical breeding experiments to make things snake-like and to weaponize things that are snake-like.

Like a hydra!:smallsmile:

[pilvento]

Give it the feats Snatch, Improved Snatch, and Multisnatch, the latter two are in the Draconomicon. This allows it to grab anyone it bites who's at least two size categories smaller than it is, and just the head that grabs them is considered grappled. Whenever it makes its bites that head just rolls to damage the grabbed character. Other heads can attack a grabbed character as though from outside the grapple, so they don't get any Dex/dodge bonuses to AC.


Need more violence and cinematic? remember when that autobot said "you want a pice of me?" and megatron replied "no!, I want two!" ... Well there is a feat for that: Rending Constriction in serpent kingdoms "you can pull apart enemies grappled with more than one appendage" :smallcool:

[Vaz]

Holy... Venomfire would be deadly. With a 20Headed, at CL12+ (expectant for a Gish) type at that level, that's +240d6 damage... that's just a bit strong. A Wand of Venomfire at CL5 for a Druid version (on a Wand Chamber Mouthpick weapon), say) is still +100d6 damage potentially.

[Phelix-Mu]

Holy... Venomfire would be deadly. With a 20Headed, at CL12+ (expectant for a Gish) type at that level, that's +240d6 damage... that's just a bit strong. A Wand of Venomfire at CL5 for a Druid version (on a Wand Chamber Mouthpick weapon), say) is still +100d6 damage potentially.

Yeah, the campaign that I was in/running (gotta love rotating dms) was probably a bit more epic-level at the point where that went down. But, it's a fairly scalable tactic, due to being able to select the CL of the venomfire. Also will drive home the importance of dispelling, if they haven't learned that lesson yet, hehe.

[VoxRationis]

MM v3.5 pg. 155:

Yeah, but right under that it says the heads grow back unless you burn the stumps.

On another note, if I am not mistaken, the construct type offers no inherent magical resistance to metal-altering magic. They're immune to a lot of specific magics, such as energy drain and necromancy, and golems, a specific kind of construct, have magic immunity with a few exceptions, but simply being a construct does not make you immune to metal-damaging attacks. Of course, most such attacks aren't automatically effective, either; the construct would get a save or something.

[Xaroth]

Yeah, but right under that it says the heads grow back unless you burn the stumps.

I'm confused, what was your reason behind stating that? I'm not trying to attack what you said, it's entirely correct, it's just that we were talking about how the Lernean thing grants the body immunity to damage. We weren't discussing the head regrowth aspect.

[Vhaidara]

On another note, if I am not mistaken, the construct type offers no inherent magical resistance to metal-altering magic. They're immune to a lot of specific magics, such as energy drain and necromancy, and golems, a specific kind of construct, have magic immunity with a few exceptions, but simply being a construct does not make you immune to metal-damaging attacks. Of course, most such attacks aren't automatically effective, either; the construct would get a save or something.

The majority of those spells target objects, not creatures. A construct is a creature, not an object.

[I3igAl]

Fair enough. Still skeptical, but still.

Does anybody know where I can find the Kaiju template?

Dunno about a Kaiju template. Pathfinder has a Kaiju Subtype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype-kaiju), which you might consider adding for 1-2 CR maybe. It's immunities and the recovery special ability would take care of most of it's weaknesses.

[Xaroth]

Dunno about a Kaiju template. Pathfinder has a Kaiju Subtype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#subtype-kaiju), which you might consider adding for 1-2 CR maybe. It's immunities and the recovery special ability would take care of most of it's weaknesses.

I think I'll go with a Multiheaded Lernean Paragon Amphibious Hydra (Augmented, Aquatic). Should I post the finished creature when it's created?


Need more violence and cinematic? remember when that autobot said "you want a pice of me?" and megatron replied "no!, I want two!" ... Well there is a feat for that: Rending Constriction in serpent kingdoms "you can pull apart enemies grappled with more than one appendage" :smallcool:

I don't think a Hydra can meet the prerequisites for that....

[sideswipe]

Use a cryo hydra as the base so it can beath fire. just because :smallbiggrin:

[Xaroth]

Use a cryo hydra as the base so it can beath fire. just because :smallbiggrin:

...you mean a Pyrohydra, right? And I'm contemplating it, but then there's more feats I'll have to invest into Breath weapon and it's a little bit of a hassle. and what with the way the Hydra is as it stands it currently has no vulnerabilities, which I'd like to keep.

[sideswipe]

...you mean a Pyrohydra, right? And I'm contemplating it, but then there's more feats I'll have to invest into Breath weapon and it's a little bit of a hassle.

sorry yes pyro. cryo is the cold one. and nah 25 heads or so does 75d6 damage every 1d4 rounds straight off the bat for no feats or anything added... though 1 feat on empower ability would make that average go from 262 damage to 393 damage... hehehe

[Xaroth]

sorry yes pyro. cryo is the cold one. and nah 25 heads or so does 75d6 damage every 1d4 rounds straight off the bat for no feats or anything added... though 1 feat on empower ability would make that average go from 262 damage to 393 damage... hehehe

Yeah, but then there's the vulnerability to Cold. As it stands there's no vulnerabilities.

[sideswipe]

Yeah, but then there's the vulnerability to Cold. As it stands there's no vulnerabilities.

honestly with everything you have all but a party of PUN-PUN's are going to find it difficult. and if the PC's are not prepared and are all bunched up then the fire breath (or cold) could wipe the party in one blow anyway.

[Xaroth]

In a campaign I was part of, the pcs managed to give some Ti-Khana Hydras the venomfire buff spell. Can't recall if this is really rules-legal, but the idea was that venomfire works on things with poisonous attacks, and Ti-Khana is a template that gives reptilian creatures a poisonous attack. I think the logic was that both things (venomfire and ti-khana) were related to yuan-ti, and there was an entire yuan-ti arc in the campaign, so maybe the DM just let it fly by Rule of Cool.

Anyway, the suggestion would be that you could give the hydra the ti-khana template and an item of venomfire to use. Depending on the CL of the item, it could deal a truly mind-blowing amount of damage.

Ti-khana template (Fiend Folio, I believe) also has a bunch of interesting flavor, in case you are looking to hijack some justification for the existence of this monstrosity. To summarize, the yuan-ti believe snakes/reptiles are the bomb, and so they engage in magical breeding experiments to make things snake-like and to weaponize things that are snake-like.

Like a hydra!:smallsmile:

Huh...that's awesome.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yeah, but then there's the vulnerability to Cold. As it stands there's no vulnerabilities.

There's a pair of feats in Draconomicon that reduce/eliminate an elemental weakness, if you're still interested.

[Xaroth]

There's a pair of feats in Draconomicon that reduce/eliminate an elemental weakness, if you're still interested.

Oh? Do tell.

[Fable Wright]

Just going to point out three things: First, that a Hydra can attack with all their heads as a single attack action. This includes attacks of opportunity.

Second, you get 1/2 your racial hit dice added to your Initiator level.

Third, there are a lot of maneuvers in Tome of Battle that grant multiple Attack actions, and no restrictions preventing magical beasts from taking Warblade levels. Avalanche of Blades/Raging Mongoose, anyone?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Oh? Do tell.

Aye, Supress/Overcome Weakness. The first lowers the bonus damage to 25%, and the second one removes it entirely.

[Xaroth]

Just going to point out three things: First, that a Hydra can attack with all their heads as a single attack action. This includes attacks of opportunity.

Second, you get 1/2 your racial hit dice added to your Initiator level.

Third, there are a lot of maneuvers in Tome of Battle that grant multiple Attack actions, and no restrictions preventing magical beasts from taking Warblade levels. Avalanche of Blades/Raging Mongoose, anyone?

Yes, the Hydra can also attack with all heads at no penalty for any of them.

I wasn't entirely sure how RHD was added to level, but oddly enough with the way I nerfed the characters that needed nerfed, every character's level is still accurate if I were to remove the LA and add half their RHD.

I'm trying to keep the Hydra as a pure monster, and with the way I'm building it there's absolutely no chance they'll be able to beat it on their first try. They'll either need to run away, or they'll need to use their single Death Pact use that I granted them.

[Xaroth]

Aye, Supress/Overcome Weakness. The first lowers the bonus damage to 25%, and the second one removes it entirely.

Hm... even more tempting now. But then the breath weapon is only a 10ft. cone.

[Mystia]

If you really want to be mean, make it a Half Red Dragon Acidborn Monster Amphibian Cryohydra. Plus the Lernean template.. and you know where this is going :smalltongue:
Also, the only thing better than an underwater battle, is an underacid battle.

[Xaroth]

If you really want to be mean, make it a Half Red Dragon Acidborn Monster Amphibian Cryohydra. Plus the Lernean template.. and you know where this is going :smalltongue:
Also, the only thing better than an underwater battle, is an underacid battle.

I can't find Acidborn or Monster template anywhere.

And oh dear god does that not just make it completely and utterly impossible to kill unless you can sever all its heads before they grow back?

[Red Fel]

I can't find Acidborn or Monster template anywhere.

Acidborn Monster. One template. Dungeonscape. It gains natural armor and a Con bonus, its natural weapons deal additional acid damage, it gains immunity to acid and poison, and it can breathe under-acid (although it loses the ability to breathe underwater). Combined with Amphibian, it can also breathe air.

This actually creates a very clever strategy to defeat it - if they can change the acid to water, they can potentially drown it.

[Vaz]

I think the problem is here, too many differentiations are coming out from those who are suggesting "unbeatable" combinations - Lernaen for example makes it unfeasable to actually sever and burn all heads.

What do you want from the Hydra boss?

Firstly, you want it to be defeatable, without a Deus Ex Machina or "clever" weakpoint that you see in novels all the time - a Death Star type opponent isn't any fun in a game involving random dice probability, you might as well just play Pen and Paper and have the DM decide if they've achieved the correct puzzle piece. This is a personal belief, anyway.

What correlation does this Hydra boss have to the storyline, if any? How has the party got to the Hydra? What type of Dungeon, what monsters was it filled with?

Is it a Pet of a further BBEG? Is it just a Dungeon encounter boss?

For example, is it a pet of Mindflayers or other aberrations? What about a Constructor? etc

[Xaroth]

Acidborn Monster. One template. Dungeonscape. It gains natural armor and a Con bonus, its natural weapons deal additional acid damage, it gains immunity to acid and poison, and it can breathe under-acid (although it loses the ability to breathe underwater). Combined with Amphibian, it can also breathe air.

This actually creates a very clever strategy to defeat it - if they can change the acid to water, they can potentially drown it.

The thing is that I REALLY don't intend for these PCs to defeat it the first time around.

[Red Fel]

The thing is that I REALLY don't intend for these PCs to defeat it the first time around.

Bad form, chief. You know the rule. Every NPC you introduce into the campaign, be it monster, king, or random peasant, is killable. It may not be easy or wise, but it oughtn't be impossible.

That said, this bad boy is by no means easy. And if he's a minion of a bigger bad, it wouldn't be out of the question to put some templates on him now, and more at a later encounter (assuming he survives).

But yeah, as a player? Upon seeing a hydra emerge from the pool? My reactions would be either (1) run away, or (2) let's kill it. And I don't generally see letting it escape as an option. (I never said I was very smart, as a player.)

[Vhaidara]

Dude, give yourself some credit. You, unlike me and most of my IRL groups, see an option that isn't attack.

[Red Fel]

Dude, give yourself some credit. You, unlike me and most of my IRL groups, see an option that isn't attack.

All I figure is that, if the party decided to engage it, the DM put it there knowing that we might kill it. Ergo, there must be some way, even if not the most obvious way, to turn Creature (Hydra) into Object (Corpse). And if the party decides to engage instead of running away screaming like terrified castratos, I will find that way or die spectacularly. And if that bad boy decides to run, that doesn't say to me, "Battle over, great job," it says, "We're winning, time for nova."

Because I had a mild MMO problem, but I'm totally *twitch* better now.

[Vhaidara]

Oh trust me, my group once nearly took on a goblin camp when we were level 3. There were 6 of us, we had no full casters, and we only changed our minds when the GM changed it from "hundreds of goblins" to "thousands of goblins, with hobgoblin support". Then we got the military to help.

[John Longarrow]

Hm...
I'm still skeptical. Could you list all of the pros and cons of it? Sorry if it's a bother, I'm just not wanting the PCs to turn a 25 headed hydra into a grandfather clock.

CONs first.
1) Less HP than a Hydra (no CON as its a CONstruct).

PROs
1) Construct with DR that keep the ability to attack with all heads
2) Construct that doesn't care about ability damage/negative energy/charms/poison/etc...
3) Some on made it and put it here for a reason. Said spell caster can still be around...

This also means you can have a LOT of fun with the local environment. Let it be under water. Let the water be poisoned. Let the area be infused by negative energy.

[MrNobody]

Do you really want your players to have even a small chance of surviving or are you planning a total party wipeout?
The more i read how this tread is going on, the more i have the idea that you do not want this ... thing to be killable...
I know well that having players winning fight at the first round could be annoying, but maybe you are overreacting!

You already have an Multiheaded Lernean Paragon Amphibious Hydra, Gargantuan, with buffs, you have interest in acidborn and going Pyroidra for having body immunity and unstoppable head regrowt... and I really hope you won't go for construct!
In that case, would be more honest admitting: "guys, i'm bored with your "killall" characters; let's start this over".

[PraxisVetli]

Do you really want your players to have even a small chance of surviving or are you planning a total party wipeout?
The more i read how this tread is going on, the more i have the idea that you do not want this ... thing to be killable...
I know well that having players winning fight at the first round could be annoying, but maybe you are overreacting!

You already have an Multiheaded Lernean Paragon Amphibious Hydra, Gargantuan, with buffs, you have interest in acidborn and going Pyroidra for having body immunity and unstoppable head regrowt... and I really hope you won't go for construct!
In that case, would be more honest admitting: "guys, i'm bored with your "killall" characters; let's start this over".

With it being immune to Acid and Fire, and can only be killed by absolute decapitation, how do you kill it?
Do you have to just remove all the heads in one round?
Or is this a SoD scenario?
because if it is, can it be Spellwarped?



also, permission to borrow this excellent beast for my own uses?
and yes, absolutely post it. And once the encounters over, I for one would love to hear how it went!

[John Longarrow]

With it being immune to Acid and Fire, and can only be killed by absolute decapitation, how do you kill it?
Do you have to just remove all the heads in one round?
Or is this a SoD scenario?
because if it is, can it be Spellwarped?



also, permission to borrow this excellent beast for my own uses?

PraxisVetli,

Just remember, any wizard that fears facing an animal (or animal int creature) will have ray of stupidity memorized.
Ray of Stupidity + Hydra = Profit.

[Vhaidara]

I think you missed a few points of Paragon
1. +15 to all stats. So not only is the Int up by 15, the Dex (and therefore Touch AC) is also raised.
2. +12 Insight and +12 Luck bonus to AC. These both apply to Touch. Combined with the Dex increase, that's an increase to Touch AC of +31.

[PraxisVetli]

PraxisVetli,

Just remember, any wizard that fears facing an animal (or animal int creature) will have ray of stupidity memorized.
Ray of Stupidity + Hydra = Profit.

What if Effigy is in play?
doesn't Construct negate Ability Drain?

[John Longarrow]

Keledrath,
I've a feeling that for any CR appropriate encounter that involves THAT thing, the wizard will be able to do something much more nasty with a 9th+ level spell...

[John Longarrow]

What if Effigy is in play?
doesn't Construct negate Ability Drain?

PraxisVetli,

I'm the one who's saying to be mean and break out an effigy Hydra... As DM, you can make a more than 12 headed one to. :belkar:
That is what makes a construct version sooo much fun against high level parties.

[Xaroth]

Do you really want your players to have even a small chance of surviving or are you planning a total party wipeout?
The more i read how this tread is going on, the more i have the idea that you do not want this ... thing to be killable...
I know well that having players winning fight at the first round could be annoying, but maybe you are overreacting!

You already have an Multiheaded Lernean Paragon Amphibious Hydra, Gargantuan, with buffs, you have interest in acidborn and going Pyroidra for having body immunity and unstoppable head regrowt... and I really hope you won't go for construct!
In that case, would be more honest admitting: "guys, i'm bored with your "killall" characters; let's start this over".

I'm not planning for a full-party wipeout, I'm planning to teach them that sometimes there's only two options:
Run away, gain levels, and go back to fight it later
Die.

I'm not exactly intending to kill the entire party, but if that's what it leads to then *shrug*, at the moment I'm getting really sick of one player's cockiness to the point that I want to just have rocks fall on him before they even get to the boss, but I'm trying to refrain from even that. The most ****-ish player in the party - the minotaur - isn't even as cocky as this guy, and that's saying something.

I'm homebrewing a peaceful Tarrasque into the party with an insanity gauge (when it reaches full the Tarrasque gets even more regeneration than it has and gets stupid-high health and AC and everything so it's a monstrosity of "KILL EVERYTHING IN SIGHT") and I've warned the party multiple times "DON'T MAKE THE TARRASQUE INSANE".

Y'know what the cocky player's trying to set up with the other PCs?

Make the Tarrasque insane when they get to the final boss and then synergising the entire party's Ride and Handle Animal skills so that everyone rides the Insane Tarrasque while it goes berserk on everything in sight.

I seriously want to kill his character right now, out of game.

[Vaz]

This is out of character issues and game breaking.

There's a line between having a plot, and railroading, but when someone is being as intentionally disrupting as you're making out, then flat out just tell them to either leave the group, or cut the rubbish out.

Have you considered it could be a Shapechanged Druid? Who then not only has an arsenal of spells to back him up, but a prepared lair, minions, and actually, mental stats of worth. That way it could become either a valued ally, or a powerful long term enemy. Perhaps a Planar Shepherd if you really want to turn up the pain as a warning. Not much else says "ouch" like 10;1 actions while shapechanged into a Chronotryn for double actions as well.

[Xaroth]

This is out of character issues and game breaking.

There's a line between having a plot, and railroading, but when someone is being as intentionally disrupting as you're making out, then flat out just tell them to either leave the group, or cut the rubbish out.

Have you considered it could be a Shapechanged Druid? Who then not only has an arsenal of spells to back him up, but a prepared lair, minions, and actually, mental stats of worth. That way it could become either a valued ally, or a powerful long term enemy. Perhaps a Planar Shepherd if you really want to turn up the pain as a warning. Not much else says "ouch" like 10;1 actions while shapechanged into a Chronotryn for double actions as well.

I just realised this is ridiculously overpowered and I haven't even given it ANY class levels.

[Xaroth]

Work has begun on the boss!

[Xaroth]

Boss is pretty much complete. I just have two feat slots and a couple of things I'm not sure about that I'm certain people will be able to point out to me and correct me on.

* = Free feat
~ = Open feat slot

Race: Multiheaded Lernean Paragon Amphibious 12-headed Hydra

(Augmented, Aquatic, 25-headed)

Size: Gargantuan

HP: 3344

AC: 68

Speed: 60ft. Land/90ft. Swim

Space/Reach: 20ft./15ft.

BAB/Grapple: +25/+55

Stats:
STR - 46
DEX - 24
CON - 66
INT - 18
WIS - 26
CHA - 24

Saving Throws:
Fort: +59
Ref: +39
Will: +34

Special Attacks:
Improved Grab (Given because of reasons)

Special Qualities:
Fire and Cold Resistance 10
Damage Reduction 10/epic
Spell Resistance 68
Fast Healing 35/Round
Low-Light Vision
Darkvision 90ft.
Natural Weapons = Epic
Amphibious
Scent

Feats:
Blind-Fight
Improved Toughness
Improved Natural Attack (Bite)
Weapon Focus (Bite)*
Combat Reflexes*
Epic Will
Snatch
Improved Snatch
Rend (Bite, because being exclusive to claws is just stupid)
Multigrab
Greater Multigrab
Rending Constriction
Large and In Charge
~
~

Each head: Attack +68 Melee (3d8 + 18(STR) + 29)

Skills (Points: 228 total):
Control Shape (Wis) +41 +8 +10
Hide (Dex) +40 -8 +7 +10
Listen (Wis) +41 +28 +8 +10
Move Silently (Dex) +24 +7 +10
Search (Int) +41 +26 +4 +10
Spot (Wis) +41 +28 +8 +10
Swim (Str) +41 +18 +16 +10

CR: 43

[Xaroth]

I think I'll have Improved Grapple take up one of the slots.

[John Longarrow]

<== Puts on Bastard DM hat for a moment.

Needs to be able to fly. As its smart enough, give it one level Sorcerer and 10 in Air elemental savant.
That would also allow it to cast some fun lower level spells, but still being able to FLY would be cool.

<== Puts on RAT BASTARD DM hat.
And its got to have its "Children" around it.
Kids.

Ages 5-12. Human. No level. Orphans that have been left in the swamp to die by poor parents. The Hydra has been taking care of them. When the party finds it, it is reciting a bedtime story. Three little girls are putting a garland of flowers on one of its heads.
Wait for your players to look at you like you've lost your mother-FRIKKING-MIND!!!

See what the players do, especially if they look like "Monsters" and the Hydra rushes forward to defend its "Children".
Emphasize the wails of terrified little ones in the back ground. Have kids run out into combat. Have kids attempt to grapple PCs.

Have fun with it.

Note: This could be a lot more fun if you have a much weaker but still intelligent Hydra. Let the "Cocky" player kill "Mama" infront of the kids.

See if you can get the player to need therapy for PTSD after an intense session of "You killed MAMA!!!"

[Xaroth]

<== Puts on Bastard DM hat for a moment.

Needs to be able to fly. As its smart enough, give it one level Sorcerer and 10 in Air elemental savant.
That would also allow it to cast some fun lower level spells, but still being able to FLY would be cool.

<== Puts on RAT BASTARD DM hat.
And its got to have its "Children" around it.
Kids.

Ages 5-12. Human. No level. Orphans that have been left in the swamp to die by poor parents. The Hydra has been taking care of them. When the party finds it, it is reciting a bedtime story. Three little girls are putting a garland of flowers on one of its heads.
Wait for your players to look at you like you've lost your mother-FRIKKING-MIND!!!

See what the players do, especially if they look like "Monsters" and the Hydra rushes forward to defend its "Children".
Emphasize the wails of terrified little ones in the back ground. Have kids run out into combat. Have kids attempt to grapple PCs.

Have fun with it.

Note: This could be a lot more fun if you have a much weaker but still intelligent Hydra. Let the "Cocky" player kill "Mama" infront of the kids.

See if you can get the player to need therapy for PTSD after an intense session of "You killed MAMA!!!"

Oh...
MY...
GOD.

I might do that with a future boss. I'm not sure.

But the Hydra's Chaotic Neutral at the moment, I don't think it's very CN to take in orphans and care for them. That seems more like NG/CG.

[John Longarrow]

But the Hydra's Chaotic Neutral at the moment, I don't think it's very CN to take in orphans and care for them. That seems more like NG/CG.

CN doesn't mean they are random, it just means they view things from a very ...individual... point of view. An smart hydra may want to have children but knows those of its own kind wouldn't give it the emotional satisfaction it desires. Adoption may be the best way for it to feel the love it wishes. Also means the Party is now stuck facing a melee-uber monster that has a very valid reason to fight THEM as they are the "Monsters" in this case.

[Xaroth]

CN doesn't mean they are random, it just means they view things from a very ...individual... point of view. An smart hydra may want to have children but knows those of its own kind wouldn't give it the emotional satisfaction it desires. Adoption may be the best way for it to feel the love it wishes. Also means the Party is now stuck facing a melee-uber monster that has a very valid reason to fight THEM as they are the "Monsters" in this case.

Clever, I like it. It also gives the Hydra a reason to stay if the party runs (which I intend for them to).

Instead of making its children humans, I could stick with my original idea of having the Hydra burst out of the water and make the children something amphibious.

Or I could just make them amphibious humans.

[Vhaidara]

Multiheaded lernean paragon amphibious human children. With a custom hydra bloodline.


Blame the wizards.

[Xaroth]

Multiheaded lernean paragon amphibious human children. With a custom hydra bloodline.


Blame the wizards.

The hilarious thing is that there's an incredibly powerful NPC that EVERYONE will blame for creating it.

And the amazing thing is that she's the kind of NPC that would be more than happy to create it, despite being the secretary of the chief of police. (Fire-Souled Nymph Wizard 20/Spellcaster 20/Bard 20)

[John Longarrow]

Multiheaded lernean paragon amphibious human children. With a custom hydra bloodline.


Blame the wizards.

Naa....

Just go cute little EASY TO IDENTIFY AND SQUISHY human/halfling/elvish kids.

For maximum impact on the players, make sure it is blatantly easy to tell they are non-combatants. Having them be "Cute" gives extra points.

Most players can't get attached to little billy, the 6 headed monstrosity.
Most players will get emotionally attached when you start talking about the happy little girl with the stuffed dolly, curled up on a small bed, her blue eyes filled with joy as "Mama" brushes her long blond hair. Mama is holding the brush in one of her 25 mouths...

[Vhaidara]

Silly john. Everyone knows multiheaded doesn't manifesruntil puberty. So they look innocent now, but it becomes a problem a few years down the road if the PCs kills mommy and get the kids adopted. All over the world.

[Xaroth]

Naa....

Just go cute little EASY TO IDENTIFY AND SQUISHY human/halfling/elvish kids.

For maximum impact on the players, make sure it is blatantly easy to tell they are non-combatants. Having them be "Cute" gives extra points.

Most players can't get attached to little billy, the 6 headed monstrosity.
Most players will get emotionally attached when you start talking about the happy little girl with the stuffed dolly, curled up on a small bed, her blue eyes filled with joy as "Mama" brushes her long blond hair. Mama is holding the brush in one of her 25 mouths...

This is what I imagined:

"Mommy, read me a bedtime story..."
*head tucks the child into bed slowly*
*head smiles at the child*
*child smiles back*
*head nods*
*child gets happy*
*head reaches over and picks up a book*
*uses another head to open the book*
*puts glasses on*
*gets ready to read the story*
"GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWR"


Silly john. Everyone knows multiheaded doesn't manifesruntil puberty. So they look innocent now, but it becomes a problem a few years down the road if the PCs kills mommy and get the kids adopted. All over the world.

I already have a plotline but holy hell I want to introduce this into it too.

I mean I could always say that they're incredibly weak now but after hitting puberty the main effects of the templates begin to form.

[John Longarrow]

Xaroth

Welcome to the wonderful world of Rat Bastard DMing.

The difference between a Bastard DM and a Rat Bastard DM is as follows;
A Bastard DM messes with the characters.
A Rat Bastard DM messes with the PLAYERS.

Yes, this will totally derail a campaign at times, but it is sooooo much more fun.

It is also very fun to find things that get your players to just .... STOP... and try to grasp what you are telling them, then try to figure out what their characters would do.

Keledrath,
Only reason I'd stay away from them is because I know too many people that would just LOVE to play one of Mama's little darlings...:sabine:

[Xaroth]

Xaroth

Welcome to the wonderful world of Rat Bastard DMing.

The difference between a Bastard DM and a Rat Bastard DM is as follows;
A Bastard DM messes with the characters.
A Rat Bastard DM messes with the PLAYERS.

Yes, this will totally derail a campaign at times, but it is sooooo much more fun.

It is also very fun to find things that get your players to just .... STOP... and try to grasp what you are telling them, then try to figure out what their characters would do.

Keledrath,
Only reason I'd stay away from them is because I know too many people that would just LOVE to play one of Mama's little darlings...:sabine:

Should...should I give it Leadership? Because I can say the children are its foll-GODDAMMIT THIS IS HAPPENING NOW. BUT I'M GOING TO HAVE THEIR AGING ACCELERATED.

BY QUITE A BIT.

*adopts an amphibious child*
*takes care of it*
*it grows up to be a bloody 25-headed hydra*
That'll be a hell of a thing to explain to the other kids

[Phelix-Mu]

Should...should I give it Leadership? Because I can say the children are its foll-GODDAMMIT THIS IS HAPPENING NOW. BUT I'M GOING TO HAVE THEIR AGING ACCELERATED.

BY QUITE A BIT.

*adopts an amphibious child*
*takes care of it*
*it grows up to be a bloody 25-headed hydra*
That'll be a hell of a thing to explain to the other kids

Being the ruler of everyone everywhere by Rule of Cool makes the need for explanation less.

Rule Zero of Raising Mitch, the 25-headed hydra-child: Give Mitch what he wants.

[Xaroth]

being the ruler of everyone everywhere by rule of cool makes the need for explanation less.

Rule zero of raising mitch, the 25-headed hydra-child: Give mitch what he wants.

"Mooooooooom?"
"Y-y-y-yes s-sweetie?"
"I wanna be mayor."
"...wh...what?"

[Phelix-Mu]

This is probably a good time to bring Daelkyr Half-Breeds into this thread. I think the book was Magic of Eberron, but I could have that wrong. Worth a read if you want to come up with twisted stuff involving parents, children, and squick factor.

[Vaz]

Should...should I give it Leadership? Because I can say the children are its foll-GODDAMMIT THIS IS HAPPENING NOW. BUT I'M GOING TO HAVE THEIR AGING ACCELERATED.

BY QUITE A BIT.

*adopts an amphibious child*
*takes care of it*
*it grows up to be a bloody 25-headed hydra*
That'll be a hell of a thing to explain to the other kids
You are the DM. Leadership is irrelevant.

[Xaroth]

This is probably a good time to bring Daelkyr Half-Breeds into this thread. I think the book was Magic of Eberron, but I could have that wrong. Worth a read if you want to come up with twisted stuff involving parents, children, and squick factor.

I looked into it, I won't be applying it to the Hydra children but I may apply it later.

I feel like making a bosses thread that consists of bosses I've made/I'll end up making of all sorts of different CRs.

[Xaroth]

You are the DM. Leadership is irrelevant.

True, but I dislike homebrewing stuff unless if it's just completely stupid that something shouldn't be able to do X, like how rend can only be applied to claws. That's just bull, so I changed it.

[Vaz]

This isn't homebrew. This is ignoring a feat that allows a PC to have a cohorts and followers.

I say again, what is the purpose of this thread? Why not just put PunPun down and say he has taken the form of a Hydra?

[Vhaidara]

True, but I dislike homebrewing stuff unless if it's just completely stupid that something shouldn't be able to do X, like how rend can only be applied to claws. That's just bull, so I changed it.

No, what he's saying is that the BBEG doesn't need to use a feat to get minions. He gets minions because of his role. Leadership is for PCs who want to join the BBEG club.

Also, if you do involved leadership, have the kids be the followers, "Mommy" be the cohort, and the father be the guy with leadership, thus demonstrating how Leadership should be used in non-high-OP scenarios : off-screen.

[John Longarrow]

But what level would be required to have Mommy as a cohort???

Xaroth
You no more need leadership to have other beings with Mommy than the party leader needs leadership to have the rest of the party come along.

Leadership reflects devoted followers. Not family, employees, or other normal relationships. There are no rules to cover this because there don't need to be.

Of course if you really want to have fun, have an effigy master be in love with the Hydra. He's made a few "immitations" that the party gets to face first. They they meet mama and her elvish boyfriend.

[Vhaidara]

But what level would be required to have Mommy as a cohort???

High enough to be scarier than the hydra.



Of course if you really want to have fun, have an effigy master be in love with the Hydra. He's made a few "immitations" that the party gets to face first. They they meet mama and her elvish boyfriend.

Or, worse, after they kill mommy, the effigy master puts all of his work into rebuilding his love. So they find variations with random templates tacked on, all effigies. Scroll through Savage Species Templates section when you have a moment. There's some fun stuff there. Also, here's a list of templates by LA (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1117261)

[Xaroth]

But what level would be required to have Mommy as a cohort???

Xaroth
You no more need leadership to have other beings with Mommy than the party leader needs leadership to have the rest of the party come along.

Leadership reflects devoted followers. Not family, employees, or other normal relationships. There are no rules to cover this because there don't need to be.

Of course if you really want to have fun, have an effigy master be in love with the Hydra. He's made a few "immitations" that the party gets to face first. They they meet mama and her elvish boyfriend.

Hm... I think I'll stick with a mother hydra protecting her young. Good idea nonetheless, but I'm kinda dead-set on this now.


No, what he's saying is that the BBEG doesn't need to use a feat to get minions. He gets minions because of his role. Leadership is for PCs who want to join the BBEG club.

Also, if you do involved leadership, have the kids be the followers, "Mommy" be the cohort, and the father be the guy with leadership, thus demonstrating how Leadership should be used in non-high-OP scenarios : off-screen.

I don't really think BBEG would be a good way to describe this boss, I already have a campaign BBEG lined up. This is more like someone coming into your home and trying to take your stuff, and your only instinct is to protect your children.

Y'know, if your home was at B2F of a set of ruins with a labyrinth at B1F scattered with demons and devils and like 50k worth of stuff all over the place.

[Xaroth]

High enough to be scarier than the hydra.

If the Cohort's CR is treated as its level? Leadership Score of 76.

Hit Die and LAs? No idea.

[Vaz]

So why do you need to have leadership to represent a family?

[Vhaidara]

The point still stands, Leadership is a feat you only need is you're a PC. Otherwise it is expected for the GM to fiat it. Because that would also mean that every group of bandits would require someone of at least level 6 to form.

[Xaroth]

So why do you need to have leadership to represent a family?

I really don't, I just thought it'd be funny to see a Hydra with a cohort.

[PraxisVetli]

Your two feats should be Rapidstrike and Improved

sorry if this doubleposts. phones being difficult

[Xaroth]

Your two feats should be Rapidstrike and Improved

sorry if this doubleposts. phones being difficult

Nobody in the party has an AC higher than the Hydra's minimum roll, so yeah, Rapidstrike seems like fun.

[Xaroth]

I've created a Boneclaw boss thread which Coidzor is contributing a lot to. You can find it by clicking here (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?352670-Creating-a-Boneclaw-boss!&p=17549788).

[Coidzor]

You've made the mistake of listing its HP but not its HD, so I can't really tell exactly what's going on, but I'll see what I can tell.

The second thing that stands out to me after leaving off its HD & Type is that I can't quite tell how you increased its size. Though you can, of course, just increase the size as part of Improving Monsters, so I'm gonna assume that's the case as well.

So that's a +1 CR from Increasing its Size to Gargantuan Size and getting +8 Str, +4 Con, +4 Nat Armor, -2 AC/Attack, bite attacks increase from 2d8 to 3d8.

All Amphibious does is decrease Dex by 2 & give the ability to breath water, since Hydras already have a racial swim speed & swim bonus. Doesn't affect LA, doesn't appear to affect CR.

Going with this version of Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm).

Max HP per HD, +12 HP per HD
movement speeds tripled(so 20*3 = 60 for land and swim speeds)
AC: +12 insight, +12 luck. +5 Nat armor is lower than 13 so no nat armor gain that way.
Attacks +20 luck on all attacks, +25 luck on melee/thrown damage
Special Attacks gain a +13 insight bonus, if applicable(so far they are not)
Special Qualities: Fire Resist 10, Cold Resist 10, DR 10/Epic, Spell Resistance = CR+25, Fast Healing 20(12 headed Hydra has 22 by default so nvm), Natural Weapons count as Epic for DR.
+10 insight to all Saves
+15 to all ability scores
+10 competence on all skills

+1 bonus feat of your choice(!?)

CR+15

Multiheaded for 13 more heads would give +13 Natural Armor, +26 HD, +26 Con, +26 racial bonus to Spot/Listen/Search, & Improved Initiative as a Bonus Feat (Combat Reflexes too, but Hydras already have that as a bonus feat). & Improve Darkvision to 90 feet. CR+6 from Multiheaded.

Lernaean's listed as just giving an LA+2 but I'm going to assume that's also a CR+2.

And since this is a Boss, let's give the base Hydra the Elite Array for +1 CR. 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

Hydra's base ability score adjustments: +12 Str, +2 Dex, +10 Con, Int=2(-8 Int), +0 Wis, -2 Cha
Multiheaded: +26 Con
Paragon: +15 to all
Amphibious: Dex - 2
Size Increase: +8 Str, +4 Con
Subtotal of Ability Score Adjustments: +35 Str, +15 Dex, +55 Con, Int=17(+7 Int), +15 Wis, +13 Cha
Elite Array 15+35 Str, 14+15 Dex, 13+55 Con, 8+7 Int=17, 12+15 Wis, 10+13 Cha

Ability Scores before HD taken into account: Str 50, Dex 29, Con 68, Int 17, Wis 27, Cha 23 (or Int 17, Cha 21)

With 38 HD(and 12 HD already accounted for) that's 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, & 36 for +6 in miscellaneous ability score increases every 4 HD. So that's +2 for increasing Dex to 30 & Wis to 28 to boost AC/Saves & then +4 that can be applied to Strength to bring it up to 54.

Final Ability Scores: Variable but roughly resembling Str 54, Dex 30, Con 68, Int 17, Wis 28, Cha 23
(with standard Array it's just Str 46, Dex 25, Con 65, Int 17, Wis 25, Cha 24 with 6 that could be applied wherever, though again, I'd raise Dex & Wis for the Saves/AC & then pump Str by 4, though bumping Str to 50 & bumping up Dex/Con/Int/Wis by 1 each may also have some appeal)


Hit Dice: 38d10+1558 (1938 HP)
[38d10+(12*38)+(29*38) = 1558+380 = 1938]

BAB: 20 for the first 20 Magical Beast HD.
EAB: 21, 23, 25, 27, 29, 31, 33, 35, 37 = +9 EAB

Grapple: 20 BAB + 9 EAB + 22 Strength Bonus +12 (Gargantuan Size) = 54+9 = 63 Grapple

Base Saves: +12 Fort, +12 Reflex, +6 Will
Epic Saves: 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, 38 = +9 Epic Save Though as a monster it may not use these since it's not advancing by character level?
Fort +60 (12base+9eas+10insight+29Con), Refl +41 (12base+9eas+10insight+10Dex), Will +34 (6base+9eas+10insight+9Wis)

Attacks: 25 Bites +73(22STR+20BAB+9EAB-4Size+1weaponfocus+25luck) melee (3d8+22str+20luck)

Feats: 38 HD worth + 3 bonus feats, one of which is up to the DM. 6 of those feats can be Epic feats.

Skills: 2+int skills or 5-6 skill points per HD depending upon 17 or 18 int. With 4x at 1st HD. Skill Cap is 41(38+3), cross-class rank cap is 20.5. Max ranks in Spot & Listen 41 + 26 Racial Bonus +10 Competence + 9 Wis = +86 Spot/Listen. Aside from Spot/Listen/Swim, I think all skills are cross-class skills for it. Search may become a class skill due to Multi-headed though.

Fast Healing: Either 10+12 = 22, 20 from Paragon, or 10+25 = 35 due to the interaction of the base Hydra fast healing and the increase in number of heads from Multi-headed. I hold with the Fast Healing 35 interpretation.

Spell Resistance: 36 CR + 25 from the Spell Resistance = 61.

Final CR count: 36
(CR 11 base Hydra + 1 Size Increase + (1 Elite Array) + 6 Multiheaded + 2 Lernaean + 0 Amphibious + 15 Paragon = 36)




Size/Type: Gargantuan Magical Beast (relevant subtypes)
Initiative: +14 (+10 Dex bonus, +4 Improved Initiative)
Hit Dice: 38d10+1558 (1938 HP) [+3 from Toughness not added in on the presumption it'll get replaced]
Speed: 60 feet (land), 60 feet (swim)
Armor Class: 70 (-4 size, +10 Dex, +30 Natural Armor, +12 Insight, +12 Luck), Touch 40(lose natural armor), Flat-footed 60(lose dex)

Base Attack/Grapple**: +20/+63
Attack***: 25 Bites +73 melee (3d8+42)
Full Attack: 25 Bites +73 melee (3d8+42)

Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: n/a
Special Qualities: Fire Resist 10, Cold Resist 10, DR 10/Epic, Spell Resistance 61, Fast Healing 35, Natural Weapons count as Epic for DR, Amphibious, Darkvision 90 ft., low-light vision, scent, [others I'm probably leaving out]

Saves**: Fort: +60, Refl: +41, Will: +34
Abilities: Str 54, Dex 30, Con 68, Int 17, Wis 28, Cha 23

Skills: [+86 Spot/Listen, the rest: lolno; though with cross-class ranks & the competence bonus the -12 size penalty to hide it could have a +28 Hide & a +30 Move Silently]
Feats: Improved Initiative(B), Combat Reflexes(B), 1 Bonus Feat(B), Blind-Fight, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Iron Will, Toughness, Weapon Focus (bite), & 8 more feats, 6 of which may be Epic feats. I'd recommend at least re-picking Toughness.

Challenge Rating: 36

**Depends upon switching over to Epic rules after 20th HD for BAB & Saves. Without it, BAB/Grapple will be +38/+71 (63+18BAB-9EAB). Base Saves for Fortitude & Reflex would be unchanged as good saves increase every even level anyway, while Will would decrease by 2(+9EAS compared to +7 from every 3 levels for a Poor save) to +32

*** Attack bonus jumps up by 9 to +82 in case of 38 BAB instead of 20 BAB + 9 EAB.

Edit: Why did you give it Control Shape as a skill? That's basically only for Were-Creatures. :smallconfused:


Boss is pretty much complete. I just have two feat slots and a couple of things I'm not sure about that I'm certain people will be able to point out to me and correct me on.

* = Free feat
~ = Open feat slot

Race: Multiheaded Lernean Paragon Amphibious 12-headed Hydra

(Augmented, Aquatic, 25-headed)

Size: Gargantuan

HP: 3344

AC: 68

Speed: 60ft. Land/90ft. Swim

Space/Reach: 20ft./15ft.

BAB/Grapple: +25/+55

Stats:
STR - 46
DEX - 24
CON - 66
INT - 18
WIS - 26
CHA - 24

Saving Throws:
Fort: +59
Ref: +39
Will: +34

Special Attacks:
Improved Grab (Given because of reasons)

Special Qualities:
Fire and Cold Resistance 10
Damage Reduction 10/epic
Spell Resistance 68
Fast Healing 35/Round
Low-Light Vision
Darkvision 90ft.
Natural Weapons = Epic
Amphibious
Scent

Feats:
Blind-Fight
Improved Toughness
Improved Natural Attack (Bite)
Weapon Focus (Bite)*
Combat Reflexes*
Epic Will
Snatch
Improved Snatch
Rend (Bite, because being exclusive to claws is just stupid)
Multigrab
Greater Multigrab
Rending Constriction
Large and In Charge
~
~

Each head: Attack +68 Melee (3d8 + 18(STR) + 29)

Skills (Points: 228 total):
Control Shape (Wis) +41 +8 +10
Hide (Dex) +40 -8 +7 +10
Listen (Wis) +41 +28 +8 +10
Move Silently (Dex) +24 +7 +10
Search (Int) +41 +26 +4 +10
Spot (Wis) +41 +28 +8 +10
Swim (Str) +41 +18 +16 +10

CR: 43

[Xaroth]

You've made the mistake of listing its HP but not its HD, so I can't really tell exactly what's going on, but I'll see what I can tell.

The second thing that stands out to me after leaving off its HD & Type is that I can't quite tell how you increased its size. Though you can, of course, just increase the size as part of Improving Monsters, so I'm gonna assume that's the case as well.

So that's a +1 CR from Increasing its Size to Gargantuan Size and getting +8 Str, +4 Con, +4 Nat Armor, -2 AC/Attack, bite attacks increase from 2d8 to 3d8.

All Amphibious does is decrease Dex by 2 & give the ability to breath water, since Hydras already have a racial swim speed & swim bonus. Doesn't affect LA, doesn't appear to affect CR.

Going with this version of Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm).

Max HP per HD, +12 HP per HD
movement speeds tripled(so 20*3 = 60 for land and swim speeds)
AC: +12 insight, +12 luck. +5 Nat armor is lower than 13 so no nat armor gain that way.
Attacks +20 luck on all attacks, +25 luck on melee/thrown damage
Special Attacks gain a +13 insight bonus, if applicable(so far they are not)
Special Qualities: Fire Resist 10, Cold Resist 10, DR 10/Epic, Spell Resistance = CR+25, Fast Healing 20(12 headed Hydra has 22 by default so nvm), Natural Weapons count as Epic for DR.
+10 insight to all Saves
+15 to all ability scores
+10 competence on all skills

+1 bonus feat of your choice(!?)

CR+15

Multiheaded for 13 more heads would give +13 Natural Armor, +26 HD, +26 Con, +26 racial bonus to Spot/Listen/Search, & Improved Initiative as a Bonus Feat (Combat Reflexes too, but Hydras already have that as a bonus feat). & Improve Darkvision to 90 feet. CR+6 from Multiheaded.

Lernaean's listed as just giving an LA+2 but I'm going to assume that's also a CR+2.

And since this is a Boss, let's give the base Hydra the Elite Array for +1 CR. 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

Hydra's base ability score adjustments: +12 Str, +2 Dex, +10 Con, Int=2(-8 Int), +0 Wis, -2 Cha
Multiheaded: +26 Con
Paragon: +15 to all
Amphibious: Dex - 2
Size Increase: +8 Str, +4 Con
Subtotal of Ability Score Adjustments: +35 Str, +15 Dex, +55 Con, Int=17(+7 Int), +15 Wis, +13 Cha
Elite Array 15+35 Str, 14+15 Dex, 13+55 Con, 8+7 Int=17, 12+15 Wis, 10+13 Cha

Ability Scores before HD taken into account: Str 50, Dex 29, Con 68, Int 17, Wis 27, Cha 23 (or Int 17, Cha 21)

With 38 HD(and 12 HD already accounted for) that's 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, & 36 for +6 in miscellaneous ability score increases every 4 HD. So that's +2 for increasing Dex to 30 & Wis to 28 to boost AC/Saves & then +4 that can be applied to Strength to bring it up to 54.

Final Ability Scores: Variable but roughly resembling Str 54, Dex 30, Con 68, Int 17, Wis 28, Cha 23
(with standard Array it's just Str 46, Dex 25, Con 65, Int 17, Wis 25, Cha 24 with 6 that could be applied wherever, though again, I'd raise Dex & Wis for the Saves/AC & then pump Str by 4, though bumping Str to 50 & bumping up Dex/Con/Int/Wis by 1 each may also have some appeal)


Hit Dice: 38d10+1558 (1938 HP)
[38d10+(12*38)+(29*38) = 1558+380 = 1938]

BAB: 20 for the first 20 Magical Beast HD.
EAB: 21, 23, 25, 27, 29, 31, 33, 35, 37 = +9 EAB

Grapple: 20 BAB + 9 EAB + 22 Strength Bonus +12 (Gargantuan Size) = 54+9 = 63 Grapple

Base Saves: +12 Fort, +12 Reflex, +6 Will
Epic Saves: 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, 38 = +9 Epic Save Though as a monster it may not use these since it's not advancing by character level?
Fort +60 (12base+9eas+10insight+29Con), Refl +41 (12base+9eas+10insight+10Dex), Will +34 (6base+9eas+10insight+9Wis)

Attacks: 25 Bites +73(22STR+20BAB+9EAB-4Size+1weaponfocus+25luck) melee (3d8+22str+20luck)

Feats: 38 HD worth + 3 bonus feats, one of which is up to the DM. 6 of those feats can be Epic feats.

Skills: 2+int skills or 5-6 skill points per HD depending upon 17 or 18 int. With 4x at 1st HD. Skill Cap is 41(38+3), cross-class rank cap is 20.5. Max ranks in Spot & Listen 41 + 26 Racial Bonus +10 Competence + 9 Wis = +86 Spot/Listen. Aside from Spot/Listen/Swim, I think all skills are cross-class skills for it. Search may become a class skill due to Multi-headed though.

Fast Healing: Either 10+12 = 22, 20 from Paragon, or 10+25 = 35 due to the interaction of the base Hydra fast healing and the increase in number of heads from Multi-headed. I hold with the Fast Healing 35 interpretation.

Spell Resistance: 36 CR + 25 from the Spell Resistance = 61.

Final CR count: 36
(CR 11 base Hydra + 1 Size Increase + (1 Elite Array) + 6 Multiheaded + 2 Lernaean + 0 Amphibious + 15 Paragon = 36)




Size/Type: Gargantuan Magical Beast (relevant subtypes)
Initiative: +14 (+10 Dex bonus, +4 Improved Initiative)
Hit Dice: 38d10+1558 (1938 HP) [+3 from Toughness not added in on the presumption it'll get replaced]
Speed: 60 feet (land), 60 feet (swim)
Armor Class: 70 (-4 size, +10 Dex, +30 Natural Armor, +12 Insight, +12 Luck), Touch 40(lose natural armor), Flat-footed 60(lose dex)

Base Attack/Grapple**: +20/+63
Attack: 25 Bites +73 melee (3d8+42)
Full Attack: 25 Bites +73 melee (3d8+42)

Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: n/a
Special Qualities: Fire Resist 10, Cold Resist 10, DR 10/Epic, Spell Resistance 61, Fast Healing 35, Natural Weapons count as Epic for DR, Amphibious, Darkvision 90 ft., low-light vision, scent, [others I'm probably leaving out]

Saves**: Fort: +60, Refl: +41, Will: +34
Abilities: Str 54, Dex 30, Con 68, Int 17, Wis 28, Cha 23

Skills: [+86 Spot/Listen, the rest: lolno; though with cross-class ranks & the competence bonus the -12 size penalty to hide it could have a +28 Hide & a +30 Move Silently]
Feats: Improved Initiative(B), Combat Reflexes(B), 1 Bonus Feat(B), Blind-Fight, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Iron Will, Toughness, Weapon Focus (bite), & 8 more feats, 6 of which may be Epic feats. I'd recommend at least re-picking Toughness.

Challenge Rating: 36

**Depends upon switching over to Epic rules after 20th HD for BAB & Saves. Without it, BAB/Grapple will be +38/+71 (63+18BAB-9EAB). Base Saves for Fortitude & Reflex would be unchanged as good saves increase every even level anyway, while Will would decrease by 2(+9EAS compared to +7 from every 3 levels for a Poor save) to +32

My bad, yeah, it was 38HD. But I'm wondering where I pulled that extra HP from...

The way that I work it is that if you create an epic-level character/NPC all feats can be used as epic feats.

I replaced Toughness with Improved Toughness because dat +38.

I replaced Iron Will with Epic Will because it's better.

I gave it Improved Grab as a Special Attack so that it qualifies for Multigrab. (it originally said improved grab. Because that made sense.)

Everything seems much more accurate though, danke.

[Xaroth]

Edit: Why did you give it Control Shape as a skill? That's basically only for Were-Creatures. :smallconfused:

Can it not be used in synergy with Hide to curl into a hole? I'm thinking it synergises Hide and Control Shape to hide in an oddly-shaped underground hole in the wall, ready to grab anyone that swims by.

[Coidzor]

Can it not be used in synergy with Hide to curl into a hole? I'm thinking it synergises Hide and Control Shape to hide in an oddly-shaped underground hole in the wall, ready to grab anyone that swims by.

All it does is control changing into or out of hybrid/animal form & resisting involuntary changes into one's were-form for Afflicted/Natural Lycanthropes. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm)(scroll to bottom of link)

[Xaroth]

All it does is control changing into or out of hybrid/animal form & resisting involuntary changes into one's were-form for Afflicted/Natural Lycanthropes. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm)(scroll to bottom of link)

Oh.

Well, getting rid of that.

[Coidzor]

I don't think a Hydra can meet the prerequisites for that....

You can use an "Added Tail" Yuan-Ti graft from Serpent Kingdoms/Fiend Folio to get a Constrict attack on it to help qualify for Rending Constriction, come to think of it.