Creating a balanced group 3.5

[maniacalmojo]

I am going to be starting a new game for my group. The game is going to be amnesia themed so i am making everyone's characters and then will hand them blank sheets and they sorta just figure out what and who they are.

Right now i have

Human monk with very good stats
Keliss (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=894256)
Female Neutral good Human Monk, Level 2, Init +7, HP 22/22, Speed 30
AC 16, Touch 13, Flat-footed 13, Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +6, Base Attack Bonus 2
Unarmed 5 (1d6+1, x2)
-1/-1 1round (includes AAO made) Flurry of blows 5/5 (1d6+1x2, x2)
Grapple 9 ( , )
(+3 Dex, +3 Natural)
Abilities Str 17, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 17
Condition None

A strong noble half orc paladin, good primary stats.
Orsh-Tarak (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=894474)
Male Desert Half-Orc Paladin, Level 2, Init +1, HP 28/28, Speed 30
AC 11, Touch 11, Flat-footed 10, Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +6, Base Attack Bonus 2
(+1 Dex)
Abilities Str 19, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 18
Condition None

A gothic halfling throwing specialist.
Isas Turven (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=895376)
C/N Halfling Rogue, Level 2, Init +5, HP 12/12, Speed 30
AC 16, Touch 16, Flat-footed 11, Fort +2, Ref +8, Will +2, Base Attack Bonus 1
+2 conceal Dagger (6) 1 (1d3, 19-20x2)
+2 conceal, (-2 to attacks this round) Dagger (Thrown) (6) 9/9 (1d3/1d3 (+2xdex), 19-20x2)
(+5 Dex, +1 Size)
Abilities Str 8, Dex 20, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 14
Condition None


The sister to the previous halfling girl, a sorceress haunted by a demon
Eldona Turven (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=895566)
Female N/G Halfling Sorcerer, Level 2, Init +3, HP 12/12, Speed 20
AC 14, Touch 14, Flat-footed 11, Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4, Base Attack Bonus 1
(+3 Dex, +1 Size)
Abilities Str 9, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 17
Condition None

A gruff old fussy dwarven wizard
Durfell fadebeard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=896057)
Male L/G Dwarf Wizard 1 Fighter 1, Level 2, Init +2, HP 20/20, Speed 20
AC 10, Touch 10, Flat-footed 10, Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +4, Base Attack Bonus 1

Abilities Str 9, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 9
Condition None

A wood elf ranger originally sent to exterminate the sorceress before losing memory. Hates spell casters with a passion.
Agaron Daechir (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=900226)
Male C/N Wood Elf Ranger, Level 2, Init +3, HP / , Speed 30
AC 13, Touch 13, Flat-footed 10, Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +8, Base Attack Bonus 3
(+3 Dex)
Abilities Str 15, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
Condition None

[LordBlades]

Depending on spell book and new spell access the 18 int wizardight end up dominating everyone else (you can control the sorcerer by assinging her spells known as you see fit.

As a personal curiosity, from an in-char persoective why did the dwarf pick up a fighter level (I'd wander as a player)? He seems ill-suited for combat of any kind.

[maniacalmojo]

The in charecter reason is because he is a noble dwarf who learned how to fight with a blade as well as his mind but in his age he is not as agile as he used to be once upon a time

The player reason is that it gives him heavy armor proficiency and improved initiate, enough to qualify for rune mage when he chooses if the player wishes

The Dm reason is to balance out a wizard to a non optimized party by giving certain flaws and banning conjuration as that is a fairly potent school.

[maniacalmojo]

would you suggest lowering int and raising some other attributes?

[Synar]

I wonder... is the sorcerer balanced too?
Because a loss of 1 caster level + banning conjuration will hurt, but sorcerers are nearly as powerful as wizard in most situations, and more in some situations. By the way, when you say flaws, do you mean the actual flaw mechanic, or is it a generic term?

[LordBlades]

would you suggest lowering int and raising some other attributes?

I'd give him maybe a 15 int and 14 str, so he's more encouraged to fight rather than cast. Even with conjuratiom banned he'll still be atrong and as soon as the party reaches a place they can shop he can easily correct any eventual flaws in his spellbook contents.

[Sewercop]

What are stopping them from retraining or changing classes later?
and better hope the pally dont fall when he got amnesia, that would suck.

At my table people would call out the stat differences and subpar choices.
Is it random wich character they get? or can people be even more pissed becuase you on purpose give them horrible chars?

[John Longarrow]

Is this for a Pathfinder game?
If not, Monks are Lawful.
It also looks like the Paladin has too many HPs.

[maniacalmojo]

I have a house rule in all my games where monks can be neutral or lawful as long as their other alignment is neutral. They also get full BAB and a d10 hp because why the hell do they not anyway..

So what about the other charecters is not balanced? Also i have not done skills yet.

[John Longarrow]

I am guessing you rolled stats as the monk has incredible stats and the rest are all above average. The Dwarf has about the closest to average of the lot.
From stats, I'd have chosen just about ANYTHING besides Monk for the Monk. They could be a fantastic ... ANYTHING.

Just to make sure, the players are all cool with you giving them random characters that they haven't had input on. If not, I'd say no one will be too happy with their build.

For the half orc, swapping cha and con and making him a barbarian would make a much more "Orcish" character.
The Rogue is going to be plagued by the strength penalty. I'd swap Con for Str, then Cha for Con.
For your wizard, I'd make him something besides a Dwarf and make him straight wizard. No real need for fighter on him except to make him less good at being a wizard.
With is stats, your Ranger should be a druid. This will also give you some healing in the party.

For your current group, they can't all see in the dark, two are bad at stealth (Dwarf and half orc), and half the party is speed 20. They don't seem to have a lot of synergy.

In all, I wouldn't build a party like this, but I've probably got a different play style.

For a 6 person party, I'd go
Crusader
Cleric
Wizard
Beguiler
Buff-centric build (Marshal/Bard/??)
Warlock

I'd also figure out what strengths I was going to play to and choose races that match.

[Trasilor]

Honestly, I am not the best at determing if XYZ character is balanced vs. ABC character. However, I would like to point out a few potential issues:

Monk -
We all know how poor the monk can be - the class was not designed well. However, with stats like these, this character could be anything - and be quite good. What's to prevent the player from taking a levels in another class? If they do, they may outshine the rest of the party.

Paladin -
Again, awesome stats on a weak class does not a balanced character make. See monk for potential pitfalls.

Rogue
Unless you change the skill points (i.e. combine them like pathfinder did) - the rogue will be starved on skill points. Remember, a rogue is a skill monkey first, combatant second, face third. Your have your order all messed up. They need at least a non-penalty on STR. The fact is, she is already small, add to that the damage penalty and this rogue may end up doing 1pt of damage per hit (1d3-1 damage means 2/3 of the time they are doing 1 pt of damage). Eventually this character will want magical weapons - that becomes very expensive if you specialize in throwing without getting some type of returning feature.

Sorcerer
As it stands, the sorcerer will outshine most of the party by level 8.

Fighter/Wizard.
Your nerf now is a speed bump in the grand scheme of things. Compared to other wizards, losing 1 caster level is bad, compared to non-casters - meh. Access to 4th level spells (let along 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spells) is a game changer. Nothing about this guy will prevent that.

Ranger
Hard to tell if this guy was going towards 2 weapons or archery. Regardless, with a WIS like that, why not take cleric levels?

Personally, I don't think D&D lends itself to the whole amnesia thing very well. Amnesia relies upon the player discovering things about themselves as they play - discovering long lost abilities and eventually discovering who you once were and deciding if you like the new you or the old you.

Although, it would be an interesting twist to make a 12 level party and allow the players (as they level) to either 'recall' their former self or take a new level. You still start them at level 2. So the player can either become the person they once were or abandon that old persona and become a new person.

[Trasilor]

For a 6 person party, I'd go
Crusader
Cleric
Wizard
Beguiler
Buff-centric build (Marshal/Bard/??)
Warlock


I would drop the Wizard for a Warblade.

Given the amount of casting already in the party, I would give the Crusader a friend to boost in melee :smallamused:

[Bloodgruve]

I'd stay away from 'Tier 1' and high 'Tier 2' just to be safe. Drop the Wizard and add in maybe Favored Soul? It could fit the character concept for the dwarf sorta.

A ranger is a spell caster at 4th level so there could be some self conflict, also I'd use that 18 in Dex or Con other then Wis. Maybe go Scout?

Not knowing your group but if it was me and I was handed a character that I didn't create then saw the Monk's stats I'd be discouraged TBH, especially if I was an 18 Wis ranger who hated spell casting... You should use a point buy system so everyone has equal stats. Make sure that the best rolls go into the correct stats.

That 1 level of fighter would really bug me throughout a game if I was the Dwarf. Also, Heavy armor and wizards don't mix without a few feats and special armor materials.

If everyone is on board with the idea its great but make sure that they're all willing. I'd personally probably find a different game then have someone else create my character for me. DnD is an investment in time and hopefully attention, that can be worth a lot to some people.

I've played in a game where the DM basically asked us to play our characters with preset classes/races and even motivations. It was a great story but it wasn't fun for the players. Especially after we all found out one of us was a dragon and the rest of the party was left in the dust...

I'd prolly go

Sorcerer
Warlock or Binder (item creation)
Ranger or Scout
Rogue or Beguiler
Crusader
Bard

GL
Blood~

[Synar]

Hum, I don't to point this again, but tier 2 isn't less powerful than tier 1, it is just less versatile. With the right spells, a sorcerer might completely beat up an un-optimized wizard (by this, I notably mean no contingencie crafting).

Edit:I believe the boost to the monk was intentionnal.But aren't nice stats + d10 + full BAB too much of a boost? Especially at lower levels? I don't really know. Also, crippling the wizard was kind of the point, I guess (and the op stated it, I believe). To strive for balance, I still guess.

Edit 2: Yeah, the monk seems too powerful compared to the ranger with 10 con and less str and dex than the monk, and two other dump stats. Especially since the monk get d10 (bigger than ranger) and same BAB.

[maniacalmojo]

For those asking, the group i am in is non optimizing and asked me to do it for the concept. I had the discussion with one of the members earlier about creating this game.

Also i was trying to stay away from stereo types. An orc playing a barbarian is a dime a dozen. Do not really see many paladins however.

I was trying to balance a monk so that it is a worthy combatant even in higher levels and because the monk in 3.5 did not make sense.

I do enforce muticlassing penalties.

Many of the classes were chosen to have a decent story that involved them being together, the wizard was supposed to be a mentor of sorts to the sorcerer.

The ranger is focused on killing mage charecters so i gave him a high will for the save. More of a thematic reason then anything.

[atemu1234]

Replace the monk with a barbarian.

[Lappy9001]

So you have the player's input, good. How will this game work? Will players have the opportunity to choose whatever build options they want as they level up?

My biggest suggestion would be not to shoe-horn them into the character's backstories/personalities. On one hand, it might be fun to try to piece together the past of the character and try to make build choices that they would taken. On the other, it would be equally fun to create a new identity out of the previous one; your memory's gone, is your old self as well?

From what you've said, it seems like your party would enjoy interesting character concepts more than powerful/balanced ones, so I wouldn't sweat it too much.

[LordBlades]

I do enforce muticlassing penalties.


This might be worth reconsidering in this case IMO. It does nothing to deter the two most powerful characters (wizard and sorcerer) to pursue their maximum power paths (more levels in wizard and sorcerer respectively) but might deter other characters from pursuing paths that would allow them to keep up.

[John Longarrow]

For those asking, the group i am in is non optimizing and asked me to do it for the concept. I had the discussion with one of the members earlier about creating this game.

Also i was trying to stay away from stereo types. An orc playing a barbarian is a dime a dozen. Do not really see many paladins however.

I was trying to balance a monk so that it is a worthy combatant even in higher levels and because the monk in 3.5 did not make sense.

I do enforce muticlassing penalties.

Many of the classes were chosen to have a decent story that involved them being together, the wizard was supposed to be a mentor of sorts to the sorcerer.

The ranger is focused on killing mage charecters so i gave him a high will for the save. More of a thematic reason then anything.

If you have a back story already, can you share so we can give you feedback? Having a dedicated mage killer with two arcane casters seems.... odd.
As your request was "Creating a balanced group" unless we know the main goal(s) for this party it is somewhat difficult to say how balanced they will be.
Their lack of a divine caster, especially at low level, will be an issue for healing. At higher levels UMD and healing items can overcome this problem, but at 2nd level this can be a killer.

From a players perspective, the Monk is going to stand out as being uber-good at low levels due to stats. The Paladin is going to feel... Odd.. unless you have someone who really wants to play a paladin. It is a hard class from an RP perspective.

[Bloodgruve]

For those asking, the group i am in is non optimizing and asked me to do it for the concept. I had the discussion with one of the members earlier about creating this game.

Also i was trying to stay away from stereo types. An orc playing a barbarian is a dime a dozen. Do not really see many paladins however.

I was trying to balance a monk so that it is a worthy combatant even in higher levels and because the monk in 3.5 did not make sense.

I do enforce muticlassing penalties.

Many of the classes were chosen to have a decent story that involved them being together, the wizard was supposed to be a mentor of sorts to the sorcerer.

The ranger is focused on killing mage charecters so i gave him a high will for the save. More of a thematic reason then anything.

That's great if you have a group that really prefers role play to roll play. In that case story trumps stats. Stats won't salvage the monk though, maybe give the monk a few free Maneuvers from select ToB styles? Mobility is important. I'll still suggest using a point buy system even if it's high like 48 or something.

Blood~

[prufock]

I'm going to come at this from the perspective of a low op game, since that requires less changes on your part.


Human monk with very good stats
Monk is a weak class, but with those stats at least should be able to compete. I'm not clear on if you're planning to stop at level 2, but beyond that he may go the Tashalatora route with psychic warrior and be a better monk.


A strong noble half orc paladin, good primary stats.
Paladin is also not a strong class, but again, good stats help at lower levels. Give him some armor and he should be a fairly hardy tank.


A gothic halfling throwing specialist.
Looks fine to me.


a sorceress haunted by a demon
Sorcerers depend a lot on spell selection. There's nothing broken here, I would daresay even sub-optimal. Should be fine, but I might replace burning hands with something more useful. Magic missile has better range and auto-hits, grease has multiple uses, color spray can end encounters, etc.


A gruff old fussy dwarven wizard
I would probably make this guy a duskblade instead.


A wood elf ranger originally sent to exterminate the sorceress before losing memory. Hates spell casters with a passion.
Should do fine.

[MilesBeyond]

Frankly, you can houserule in all the changes you want, it's still not going to prevent the Wizard and Sorcerer from pulling far ahead of the rest of the party. I don't live and breathe the tier system but I think it's still a good assessment of the various capabilities of the classes - and the reality is, if you want a balanced party, combining top-tier (Wizard) with bottom-tier (Monk) is a really bad idea.


A lot of it depends on your gaming group. You said they're more interested in roleplaying than in powergaming. This will help. With stats like that, the natural thing for the Monk to do would be to immediately branch out into another class and treat the two Monk levels as a dip - but if they're RPing, you may not have to deal with that.

Additionally, if your Dwarf is willing to commit to the whole "from a noble house of warriors" thing, that could help too. Fighter5/Wizard5 is going to be a lot more in line with the rest of the party's power than Fighter1/Wizard9. Otherwise, I think you may be better off axing the Fighter/Wizard thing and making the character a Bard instead. You'd probably want to reroll the stats, but it would keep the spirit of the character while being much more balanced.

That just leaves the Sorcerer. Since your group seems to be okay with non-trivial rules added in, I think there's a couple of things you could do here. First, you could say that the Sorceress needs to devote some of her energy to fending off this demon, and as a result only gets 75% (or hell, even 66%) of her spell slots given her level. The second option is to say that she's very intent on warding off other casters or something, and therefore half of her spells must be Abjuration.

Those are both super heavy-handed, and ordinarily I wouldn't recommend them, but aside from changing the class entirely, I don't see how else you could make her balanced with the rest of the party.


Of course, if your gaming group has a wide range of player experience, that works too. Give the Sorceress and Wizard to the beginners and the Monk to the grizzled veteran.


The Ranger, Rogue, and Paladin look fine, and I think they alongside the Monk would make for a balanced party.

[HalfQuart]

Just pointing out what I assume is a typo:


C/N Halfling Rogue, Level 2, Init +5, HP 12/12, Speed 30

Halfling base speed is 20, which is what you've got for Eldona... so unless Isas has a magic item that boosts speed (fairly rare at level 2) or you give fast movement to Rogues or something, this should be Speed 20.

[Synar]

Why is the ranger base BAB +3?

[maniacalmojo]

HalfQuart
there is a trait where you can have +10 speed at a -1hp per level.

[maniacalmojo]

Since a few of you have asked this is the story.

Shortened version.

Eldonna always had a strange feeling in her body but one day she found a stone in the forest that allowed her to use some cantrips with ease. She eventually touched the stone and a demon went in her body. After being checked out by a lowly druid (the only semi magic related thing in the village) she was found to be unaffected by his magic. The druid went to talk to a dwarf who resided near the village on a cliff. The dwarf knew something was up so he sent a message to a church discribing the situation. Later Eldonna started to burn the village, isas who was away at the time ran to see what was up and found eldonna killing their parents. Durfell (the dwarf) comes in and puts eldonna to sleep where he takes her on a trip. Well the church arrive and find the village burned and everyone slaughtered. They send out team of men to retrieve her. Durfell Isas and Eldonna travel together with Durfell periodically using scrolls to seal the magic in her and keep her asleep. One night they stop near the edge of a town as durfell goes in. Some men appear a bit later and threaten to take Eldonna. Realizing that as much as she currently despises her for killing their parents Isas would be compleatly alone if her sister were to leave so she pulled out a dagger and threatened the men. They laughed and attacked. Isas dodged a few times and fell, as one of the men was going to kill her she grew angry and threw the dagger, piercing the man in the neck causing him to choke and die suddenly. Isas then turned cold and intimidating killing the other two with much more ease.

After council durfell found that Eldonna was plagued by some sort of demon. There would be no way to safely remove the demon and killing the child might cause the demon to possess the corpse and get lose but there was a way to seal it in the child so she could fight back its influence. It would always plague her but at least she could live some sort of live until they found a way to remove it for good.

An elven ranger appeared to the church and asked about the girl. Offering to take her out himself thinking she should not be allowed to roam free when she is capable of such destruction. The church agrees.

Eldonna now awake, Isas now detached and distant and Durfell traveled together after sealing away the demon in Eldonna. They wandered through a town. The ranger shot an arrow at Eldonna and it almost hit her but was caught by a nearby wanderer with fiery red hair. The woman argued with the ranger eventually overcoming and subduing him. The stranger was known as Keliss and after saying thank you she offered to show them to a temple that they were looking for.

After some travel the group makes it to a temple. The hopes being that they can get rid of the dark energy infecting Eldonna. They find the temple to be empty but there is an area where such a ritual could be cast from.

Elsewhere. A member of the church, A Orc paladin. Hears of the plans the church is making against the girl. He argues saying there is no honor or justice in slaying a child. After a heated argument he leaves vowing to help the child.

The elf on the other hand went to meet them off in the temple.

As the group began the ritual to seal the demon forever the Elf appeared and attempted to kill the group, he was met off by the paladin who he countered. The fighting caused the ritual to go astray and eldonna released a lot of energy wiping the minds of everyone around.

Later the group awakes in beds at a nearby village with none of their memories or equipment. They are all in the under clothes they were wearing before the ritual. Their equipment and most notable belongings stripped of them.

Story begins.

[Arc_knight25]

I see no problem at all with the characters.

I just hope you talked with your players first to see what type of character they wanted to play. If you've played with these people for years and have a vague idea of what they want to play this time around.

Or I hope that this is a just quick one off where the players don't get to attached to there toons.

But I would say it sounds like fun what your trying to do.