Can the HPoH prepare Protection from Daylight from Hel instead of the staff?

[CaDzilla]

Or was Nergal the only god who could give that spell?

[SavageWombat]

Not really covered in RAW - it's up to Rich.

Most DMs would probably allow Durkula to "learn" the spell from the staff so that Hel can grant it - but it's not a rule.

[Glodart]

When Haley said that Durkon was trying to research it, he probably wasn't lying about it. He is genuinely researching the most useful spell to him.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I doubt that Nergal would have a monopoly on any particular spell, especially one that Clerics besides his would use. I think the High Priest of Hel will learn how to prepare by studying the staff.

[King of Nowhere]

HE could cast it if he could research it. he probably could research it eventually, if he had enough time available. but he has no time, so he only has the charges in the staff.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

HE could cast it if he could research it. he probably could research it eventually, if he had enough time available. but he has no time, so he only has the charges in the staff.

I believe his excuse for staying down in the hold was that he was researching how to cast it by himself. He probably has plenty of time down there to actually do that. Actually, since he is now up on deck, he might have already researched. That, or since the clouds are blocking the sun, he's coming up.

[Edhelras]

HE could cast it if he could research it. he probably could research it eventually, if he had enough time available. but he has no time, so he only has the charges in the staff.

I always had a problem with this: Since clerics gain their spells from their god, not from a book they've compiled, how can they (realistically, in-game) know which spells are available? When I bought the Spell Compendium - suddenly a lot of cool spells became available for my Cleric. But didn't the deity know about those spells before? How could my cleric actually know and browse his deity's inventory of available spells?

As for Protection from Daylight - that would easily be a spell restricted to Clerics of Nergal, him being a god of death, and therefore possibly a preferred deity for undead as well. In the Forgotten Realms setting, there are several spells restricted to clerics of this or that deity - and I think that's cool.
In OOTS it's more complicated, because of the three pantheons that seem to be parallell and complementary to each other. Might there be any kind of cooperation between, say Nergal and Hel?

From a story point of view, it would probably be most interesting if Durkola had to rely on the Staff to survive. If not, much of the "vampire - strong, but drawbacks" thing is omitted from the story. Also, it's kind of dizzying to consider: If Durkola "learns" this spell - will Durkon, trapped inside him, learn it as well?
I think this precious Staff is too much of a hot item to leave out of the story. It's kind of like a countdown for Durkola/Durkon - unless he/they discover a way to cast the spell himself, or go underground.

BTW I'm not sure whether it's possible to recharge a staff?

[Jay R]

I always had a problem with this: Since clerics gain their spells from their god, not from a book they've compiled, how can they (realistically, in-game) know which spells are available? When I bought the Spell Compendium - suddenly a lot of cool spells became available for my Cleric. But didn't the deity know about those spells before? How could my cleric actually know and browse his deity's inventory of available spells?

When I was a child, my mother or father would answer any question I asked them. The limitation was knowing what to ask - and what I was capable of understanding.

In my current 2E game, spells are hard to learn. Even if the god would be willing to give you a spell you've never cast before, you probably wouldn't be able to do it correctly without a lot of practice.

Similarly, I can buy any book I want - even War and Peace in the original Russian. That doesn't automatically mean I can read it.

I can buy a Rubik's cube. That doesn't mean I can solve it.

I can buy a car with a standard transmission. That doesn't mean I can drive it.

[Edhelras]

I can buy a Rubik's cube. That doesn't mean I can solve it.

With Rubik's cube, you can at least dissemble it, and fix it that way. Sure is the only way I ever "solved" that darned contraption...

However, there seems not to be any rules regarding Spellcraft checks or other obstacles Clerics must pass in order to make use of any spell - apart, as noted, from those restricted to specific deities, or those with alignment restrictions. So, any Cleric player could expect the DM to allow any spell on his spell list - or what would be the DMs requirements to allow a given spell?

Do you have any suggestions as to how a Cleric (I'm thinking 3.5 now, as OOTS is too) could role-play the process of "learning" new spells?

[Keltest]

I always had a problem with this: Since clerics gain their spells from their god, not from a book they've compiled, how can they (realistically, in-game) know which spells are available? When I bought the Spell Compendium - suddenly a lot of cool spells became available for my Cleric. But didn't the deity know about those spells before? How could my cleric actually know and browse his deity's inventory of available spells?

As for Protection from Daylight - that would easily be a spell restricted to Clerics of Nergal, him being a god of death, and therefore possibly a preferred deity for undead as well. In the Forgotten Realms setting, there are several spells restricted to clerics of this or that deity - and I think that's cool.
In OOTS it's more complicated, because of the three pantheons that seem to be parallell and complementary to each other. Might there be any kind of cooperation between, say Nergal and Hel?

From a story point of view, it would probably be most interesting if Durkola had to rely on the Staff to survive. If not, much of the "vampire - strong, but drawbacks" thing is omitted from the story. Also, it's kind of dizzying to consider: If Durkola "learns" this spell - will Durkon, trapped inside him, learn it as well?
I think this precious Staff is too much of a hot item to leave out of the story. It's kind of like a countdown for Durkola/Durkon - unless he/they discover a way to cast the spell himself, or go underground.

BTW I'm not sure whether it's possible to recharge a staff?

The answer might be less complicated than you think (outside of the stickverse, which im sure does not actually care about details like that). Clerical spells are basically prayers, right? Much like Arcane spells, they have specific verbal components, in this case the actual prayer. When a cleric researches a new spell, theyre actually forming an appropriate prayer, both to cast it on the fly and to ask for the energies to do it in the morning. Without the specific prayer, youre basically asking your god to come down himself (or send an agent) and manually grant the spell effect, as compared to the automatic granting of spells which doesn't take (as much) attention.

[Jay R]

Do you have any suggestions as to how a Cleric (I'm thinking 3.5 now, as OOTS is too) could role-play the process of "learning" new spells?

Well, I've never played 3.5, so I don't know how useful my methods will be. In my 2E game, a cleric will learn 3 spells at each new level, plus one after each session. That's automatic. She can also learn from scrolls found. (IN my game, magic items aren't ever found for sale.)

Beyond that, when she wants to do something new, she prays, explaining why it matters. If it is consistent with the god's priorities, it will be automatic. (In fact, it will happen unless it is opposed to the god's priorities. The players haven't figured this out yet.) Then, if there is time to practice (a couple of days), it will work fine. But the first time or two, the spell may not aim correctly. This will mostly happen for laughs, and will not endanger them in combat.

As she gets better with it, and has the process of learning spells gets a little repetitive, it will become automatic

The goal is to add some flavor, and make the process meaningful, without unduly handicapping the character.

[Edhelras]

The answer might be less complicated than you think (outside of the stickverse, which im sure does not actually care about details like that). Clerical spells are basically prayers, right? Much like Arcane spells, they have specific verbal components, in this case the actual prayer. When a cleric researches a new spell, theyre actually forming an appropriate prayer, both to cast it on the fly and to ask for the energies to do it in the morning. Without the specific prayer, youre basically asking your god to come down himself (or send an agent) and manually grant the spell effect, as compared to the automatic granting of spells which doesn't take (as much) attention.

OK, I like that. But - one problem is that Divine spells are quite specific and complicated. A Cleric could pray: "Oh gracious Ilmater, provide me with spells so that I can heal the wounded and suffering" - and receive a pack of Cure spells. But what if he wanted to prepare, say, Blade barrier, or Death knell, or Glyph of Warding? Those spells would require quite specific demands from the Cleric. How is he supposed to know what kinds of spells the deity will grant him? And, if this is simply a question of the deity empowering his servant, why couldn't the cleric ask for just about anything, without specifications or limitations?
So why are the Divine spells so detailed, and yet so similar throughout different Divine hierarchies? It's easier to understand arcane spells, which are the results of intellectual research and experimentation with the Weave.
Meh, better not dwell on it, I guess...

The problem arises in gameplay, when I Wonder how to handle the unlimited opportunities for picking divine spells that clerics have, what conditions to set for them to make use of the complete spell inventory available to them. No limits, or some role-play mediated limits?

[JeenLeen]

I think (using D&D 3.5 rules) the answer would be no.

I never used spell research in games, and it never made sense to me for clerics, but my understanding from the core books was:
1. Clerics usually get their spell list from their gods. (I reckon during training or via prayer they know what spells their god can grant them.)
2. However, clerics can (like wizards) try to research new spells. This is creating a new divine spell that did not exist before.
3. Once they research it successfully, they can cast it. They can also teach it to others (might be required to scribe a scroll; I don't recall.)

If the above is correct--I am going from memory--then the deity doesn't get to grant the spells just because their cleric can use it. Maybe from a 'fluff' point of view, the cleric learned how to weave prayers and divine energy to cause a new effect?
However, it makes more sense to me that the deity from then on could grant it to its clerics. Maybe other gods would figure it out in time (much more quickly if scrolls or teaching proliferate the spell.)

But, regardless of the metaphysics behind spell knowledge, there's no reason to think that he can be granted the spell from Hel. Although he's obviously lying to the party a lot, I figure he's sincere when he says he plans to research it so that he can cast it himself.

[Keltest]

OK, I like that. But - one problem is that Divine spells are quite specific and complicated. A Cleric could pray: "Oh gracious Ilmater, provide me with spells so that I can heal the wounded and suffering" - and receive a pack of Cure spells. But what if he wanted to prepare, say, Blade barrier, or Death knell, or Glyph of Warding? Those spells would require quite specific demands from the Cleric. How is he supposed to know what kinds of spells the deity will grant him? And, if this is simply a question of the deity empowering his servant, why couldn't the cleric ask for just about anything, without specifications or limitations?
So why are the Divine spells so detailed, and yet so similar throughout different Divine hierarchies? It's easier to understand arcane spells, which are the results of intellectual research and experimentation with the Weave.
Meh, better not dwell on it, I guess...

The problem arises in gameplay, when I Wonder how to handle the unlimited opportunities for picking divine spells that clerics have, what conditions to set for them to make use of the complete spell inventory available to them. No limits, or some role-play mediated limits?

Because the gods said so I guess. This is a world where mages aren't allowed to memorize too many spells, because learning magic missile a third time (how do you even memorize it twice?!) might.. I dunno, break something I guess. In a Forgotten Realms book I read once, it was mentioned from the perspective of a new god (Finder, if youre curious) that each clerical spell had to be cast with a specific prayer (so CLW would have a different yet specific vocal component than Blade Barrier) so that the god could grant it unconsciously. Maybe the prayers are specific to each deity, and the spells themselves are just part of the generic abilities of all gods. Domain slots being the special powers the god gets as part of their portfolio.

But yeah, its magic. Unless its an important detail to the plot, you can probably just handwave it with "because the gods/powers that be above them said so." and leave it at that. If the players keep pushing, stand up and shout 'DO NOT QUESTION THE ARBITRARY RULES THAT GOVERN REALITY FOOLISH MORTAL!" and then sit back down like nothing happened.

edit: The way I figure it, clerical spell preparation is close to what Rich drew early on in the comic when Durkon was asking for healing spells. He basically said "Thor, today I want X Y and Z spells." and then the actual verbal prayers at the time of casting release the energy the god put into the mortal that morning. The god is basically saying "heres some energy, say the password when you want to use it." Thinking on it, this would also explain spontaneous conversion. Theyre just taking the raw spell energy and using it, well, raw.

[Edhelras]

But yeah, its magic.

Are you saying that... DnD is not... REAL? :smalleek:

Everytime some jerk drives carelessly in the traffic or something, I feel this profound wish that I could just send off Magic missiles from my fingertips. I sometimes wonder whether I am actually able to do it, if only I stumbled across the right words and the right hand movements.
Then again - I'm a pacifist and against all killing, so I'm quite happy I haven't yet discovered my innate magical powers...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Are you saying that... DnD is not... REAL? :smalleek:
Lies! Blasphemy!


Everytime some jerk drives carelessly in the traffic or something, I feel this profound wish that I could just send off Magic missiles from my fingertips. I sometimes wonder whether I am actually able to do it, if only I stumbled across the right words and the right hand movements.
Then again - I'm a pacifist and against all killing, so I'm quite happy I haven't yet discovered my innate magical powers...
I feel the same way sometimes. Perhaps it's for the best that humanity doesn't have those kinds of powers. :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

Lies! Blasphemy!


I feel the same way sometimes. Perhaps it's for the best that humanity doesn't have those kinds of powers. :smalltongue:

Alternatively, if any random Joe could shoot lightning at you, people would be far more hesitant about cutting each other off in traffic.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Alternatively, if any random Joe could shoot lightning at you, people would be far more hesitant about cutting each other off in traffic.

That much is true. On the other hand, people might just start blasting you out of their way.

[Keltest]

That much is true. On the other hand, people might just start blasting you out of their way.

That's why you enchant your bumpers with spell reflection.

[Clistenes]

Hel should be able to learn the spell and grant it to him.

[Morty]

The basic assumption, I think, is that divine spells are not fundamentally different from arcane spells. After all, many can be cast by both kinds of spell-caster. They're sets of words and gestures that draw upon whatever local magic field there is. The difference is the source. Wizards get them from research, sorcerers by being Speshul and divine casters from on high.

Mind you, it still means that researching spells as a divine caster makes little sense. But really, the entirety of D&D magic makes precious little sense even by the very low standards of fantasy magic systems.

[dps]

Alternatively, if any random Joe could shoot lightning at you, people would be far more hesitant about cutting each other off in traffic.

Nah. IRL, any random joe can shoot at you with a firearm, or just run you off the road, but people still do dumb stuff behind the wheel anyway.

[warrl]

Because the gods said so I guess. This is a world where mages aren't allowed to memorize too many spells, because learning magic missile a third time (how do you even memorize it twice?!) might.. I dunno, break something I guess.

I always figured that the prepared-casters' preparations actually were rituals sort of equivalent to setting up a booby trap. The "casting", particularly for the fast spells, basically amounted to releasing a trigger.

And the limits on casting are because you can only hold so many triggers of any given complexity at one time.

This is far from a perfect explanation (why can't you load three 2nd-level spells into an 8th-level slot?) and doesn't even try to apply to spontaneous casters...

As for researching clerical spells, maybe the gods won't create spells for mortals. A mortal has to figure out how the divine energies can be applied to achieve the desired result. Then a deity notices some divine caster using the new spell, and it becomes available to other divine casters... if they know to ask about it. (It being a spell known to mortals, the divine powers are willing/allowed to pass it on to other mortals.)

[LuisDantas]

OK, I like that. But - one problem is that Divine spells are quite specific and complicated. A Cleric could pray: "Oh gracious Ilmater, provide me with spells so that I can heal the wounded and suffering" - and receive a pack of Cure spells. But what if he wanted to prepare, say, Blade barrier, or Death knell, or Glyph of Warding? Those spells would require quite specific demands from the Cleric. How is he supposed to know what kinds of spells the deity will grant him? And, if this is simply a question of the deity empowering his servant, why couldn't the cleric ask for just about anything, without specifications or limitations?

The way I see it, the very existence of Clerics shows that (most? some? all?) Deities either need or prefer to work indirectly by way of them.

Otherwise, differences in capabilities among Clerics of the same Deity are known (by way of D&D 3.x mechanics) to be to a major extent a function of how much experience the Cleric has.

That could be to interpreted as Clerics being continuously evaluated in their worthiness to receive higher benefits and rewarded accordingly.

Or perhaps it is the experience itself that makes them capable of dealing with the mundane demands of the spells. After all, not all Clerics have the same level of understanding of their own God's Theology, and that is presumably not because the God wills so. Maybe higher level spells demand a finer or broader understanding of Physics, finer motor control, better modulated speech, or something.

[Vinyadan]

He did research Mass death ward, didn't he? But he needed previous literature on the subject, as well as help from someone better learned than he was. Plus, he didn't notice that the spell had a backdoor.

I suppose he could research it, the problem is, how well it would work. Dorkula is a different person, but he may still find things rather difficult.

[SavageWombat]

Spells don't kill people, casters kill people.

Or people with Use Magical Device.

[137beth]

He will probably learn it.
But there are no rules in 3.5 to cover it.

[Terrador]

Lies! Blasphemy!


I feel the same way sometimes. Perhaps it's for the best that humanity doesn't have those kinds of powers. :smalltongue:

Except we have guns, and densely-populated areas that put a ton of people in the cone of fire in the likely event of a miss.

In all seriousness, @OP: there's no RAW reason I can think of that HPoH can't just start casting Protection of Daylight, but between the research of Mass Death Ward and HPoH's inability to currently cast Protection from Daylight, I suspect Rich has made learning new divine spells a bit harder than it explicitly has to be by default. That said, the smart money's on HPoH figuring it out long before the staff runs out of charges.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Except we have guns, and densely-populated areas that put a ton of people in the cone of fire in the likely event of a miss.
For me, it would be easier to have the innate ability to shoot lightning bolts at people than to get a gun. I also think lightning is more damaging than bullets.

[Phoniex]

I believe that the HPoH and Durkon will learn protection from daylight, simply because of the plot requirement. I don't see Rich adding another umbrella carrying character to the story now. And without that spell, 90+% of the comic would be durkon free because its set in the daytime and possibly sunshine accessible. No Rich is not going to cripple a main character before he has done anything with him when he can simply say.. oh he learns the spell from the staff now I can keep using this character and tell stories about him.

[Miriel]

I believe that the HPoH and Durkon will learn protection from daylight, simply because of the plot requirement. I don't see Rich adding another umbrella carrying character to the story now. And without that spell, 90+% of the comic would be durkon free because its set in the daytime and possibly sunshine accessible. No Rich is not going to cripple a main character before he has done anything with him when he can simply say.. oh he learns the spell from the staff now I can keep using this character and tell stories about him.
Or he could actually use the staff until further notice? It is a great narrative tool, if you ask me.

[Keltest]

Or he could actually use the staff until further notice? It is a great narrative tool, if you ask me.

Certainly it allows the plot to use or not use his vulnerability to sunlight as necessary. Don't want him in the daylight? Oops, he gave his staff to Haley to hold, and she had to go somewhere.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I believe that the HPoH and Durkon will learn protection from daylight, simply because of the plot requirement. I don't see Rich adding another umbrella carrying character to the story now. And without that spell, 90+% of the comic would be durkon free because its set in the daytime and possibly sunshine accessible. No Rich is not going to cripple a main character before he has done anything with him when he can simply say.. oh he learns the spell from the staff now I can keep using this character and tell stories about him.

I think that if needing Protection from Daylight was a non-issue, the fact that he didn't know it wouldn't have been brought up.

[Keltest]

I think that if needing Protection from Daylight was a non-issue, the fact that he didn't know it wouldn't have been brought up.

To be fair, it was only brought up right before he claimed he was going to try and learn it. It hasn't come up since, but Durkon is on deck without his staff, so he may very well have learned it in the 3 days they've been traveling, and bringing it up was the Giant's way of saying that Lurky was learning it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

To be fair, it was only brought up right before he claimed he was going to try and learn it. It hasn't come up since, but Durkon is on deck without his staff, so he may very well have learned it in the 3 days they've been traveling, and bringing it up was the Giant's way of saying that Lurky was learning it.

I was thinking that he only came on deck now that it's raining, but he is casting a spell that will clear the skies, so it might be showing that he knows how to prepare it. I would think there'd be a more direct mention of it.