FotF + Primeval build

[El Mule]

Hi, new user here. I want to enter as soon as possible in the PrCs (5° FotF, 9° Primeval), getting a hard time with feats, here the build I came up with:

Human
(Point buy) Str 17 - Dex 16 - Con 18 - Int 10 - Wis 8 - Cha 8

1 Barbarian (Bear Totem): (Bonus) Toughness, (Human) Endurance, (1) Steadfast Determination
2 Ftr: (Bonus) Power Attack
3 Barbarian (Bear Totem): (Bonus) Imp. Grapple, (1) Imp. Unarmed Strike
4 Barbarian (Bear Totem): (Bonus) Great Fortitude
5 FotF /
6 Ftr: (Bonus) Scorpion's grasp or INA; (1) Self-sufficient
7 FotF /
8 FotF /
9 Primeval: (1) ???
10 Warshaper /
11 Warshaper /
12 Primeval: (1) ???
Primeval form: probably Dire Ape, asking the DM if he could allow Girallon (more for flavour than else)

I think it's the best I can do to get all the feats as early as possible without sucking, should be a good all around tank, no need to optimize a lot since it's not going to be an optimized campaign (starting at lvl 1).
Any hint about the build would be greatly appreciated :)

A few considerations:
- Rage 1/day is not much but it *should* suffice, anyway I'd like to find an item that grants 1 or 2 uses more, just to be sure. Extra rage is not an option, too tight on feats already.

- I'm strongly considering taking Combat Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit at lvls 9 and 12. Since the primeval form is a standard action, and the Warshaper's morphic weapons take a move action, I could spend the first round to change form and buff while activating Robilar's Gambit and shred everything that tries to attack me.

-I'm a little concerned about the legality of a 'combo' I came up with. Let's start with basics:
FotF 3 gives 1d10 unarmed damage.
Improved Natural Attack works for natural weapons and the Monk's unarmed damage entry states that his unarmed damage is considered a natural weapon, also. Thus, a FotF 3 with INA gets an unarmed damage of 2d8 (as stated in the feat's description, 1d10 becomes 2s8).
Now, wear a Monk's Belt: 2d8 is the unarmed damage of a 16th level Monk, and it's upgraded to 2d10 by adding the Monk's belt levels.
I couldn't find a size progression damage for d10s, but I suppose it follows the same progression of d6s and d8s. Now we have the 'standard' human FotF with 2d10 unarmed damage.
Activate Primeval Form, and it gets to 3d10 due to size increase. Use Morphic Weapon to increase another size, and it gets 4d10.
The following steps are Gargantuan (6d10) and Colossal (8d10), it can be achieved with a simple potion of Greater Mighty Wallop (CL8). Not sure if it's written material or homebrew, but in the game we have an item (a "pouche") that lets the characters use a potion as a swift action. So in the first round the character could: drink the Greater Mighty Wallop potion (Swift), turn into a Dire Ape (Standard) and buff with Morphic Weapons (Movement), while Raging (free action) and Feral Trancing (free action) with a Robilar's Gambit stance (no action).
Is this chain combo correct or am I missing something? It seems both good and reasonable, I mean, I know I could just get a CL20 Greater Mighty Wallop potion and go to town, but the DM likes to keep things balanced, it's quite hard for level 8-12 characters to stumble upon CL20 potions or scrolls or whatelse :)

[Urpriest]

Hi, new user here. I want to enter as soon as possible in the PrCs (5° FotF, 9° Primeval), getting a hard time with feats, here the build I came up with:

Human
(Point buy) Str 17 - Dex 16 - Con 18 - Int 10 - Wis 8 - Cha 8

1 Barbarian (Bear Totem): (Bonus) Toughness, (Human) Endurance, (1) Steadfast Determination
2 Ftr: (Bonus) Power Attack
3 Barbarian (Bear Totem): (Bonus) Imp. Grapple, (1) Imp. Unarmed Strike
4 Barbarian (Bear Totem): (Bonus) Great Fortitude
5 FotF /
6 Ftr: (Bonus) Scorpion's grasp or INA; (1) Self-sufficient
7 FotF /
8 FotF /
9 Primeval: (1) ???
10 Warshaper /
11 Warshaper /
12 Primeval: (1) ???
Primeval form: probably Dire Ape, asking the DM if he could allow Girallon (more for flavour than else)

I think it's the best I can do to get all the feats as early as possible without sucking, should be a good all around tank, no need to optimize a lot since it's not going to be an optimized campaign (starting at lvl 1).
Any hint about the build would be greatly appreciated :)

A few considerations:
- Rage 1/day is not much but it *should* suffice, anyway I'd like to find an item that grants 1 or 2 uses more, just to be sure. Extra rage is not an option, too tight on feats already.

- I'm strongly considering taking Combat Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit at lvls 9 and 12. Since the primeval form is a standard action, and the Warshaper's morphic weapons take a move action, I could spend the first round to change form and buff while activating Robilar's Gambit and shred everything that tries to attack me.

-I'm a little concerned about the legality of a 'combo' I came up with. Let's start with basics:
FotF 3 gives 1d10 unarmed damage.
Improved Natural Attack works for natural weapons and the Monk's unarmed damage entry states that his unarmed damage is considered a natural weapon, also. Thus, a FotF 3 with INA gets an unarmed damage of 2d8 (as stated in the feat's description, 1d10 becomes 2s8).
Now, wear a Monk's Belt: 2d8 is the unarmed damage of a 16th level Monk, and it's upgraded to 2d10 by adding the Monk's belt levels.
I couldn't find a size progression damage for d10s, but I suppose it follows the same progression of d6s and d8s. Now we have the 'standard' human FotF with 2d10 unarmed damage.
Activate Primeval Form, and it gets to 3d10 due to size increase. Use Morphic Weapon to increase another size, and it gets 4d10.
The following steps are Gargantuan (6d10) and Colossal (8d10), it can be achieved with a simple potion of Greater Mighty Wallop (CL8). Not sure if it's written material or homebrew, but in the game we have an item (a "pouche") that lets the characters use a potion as a swift action. So in the first round the character could: drink the Greater Mighty Wallop potion (Swift), turn into a Dire Ape (Standard) and buff with Morphic Weapons (Movement), while Raging (free action) and Feral Trancing (free action) with a Robilar's Gambit stance (no action).
Is this chain combo correct or am I missing something? It seems both good and reasonable, I mean, I know I could just get a CL20 Greater Mighty Wallop potion and go to town, but the DM likes to keep things balanced, it's quite hard for level 8-12 characters to stumble upon CL20 potions or scrolls or whatelse :)

That's where your setup messes up. 2d8 is the unarmed damage of a Medium-sized 16th level Monk, but you've got Improved Natural Attack, so you've got the damage of a Large Monk.

Here's how things actually stack:

First, you aren't a Monk, so upon donning a Monk's Belt you gain the unarmed damage of a 5th level Monk, or 1d8.

Now, your unarmed damage already deals 1d8, so Fist of the Forest increases it by two steps on the Monk class table, to 2d6.

Then your size increases kick in. Being a Dire Ape means you're Large. Technically, this has weird effects, because Fist of the Forest only improves your unarmed damage if you "already deal (1d8 or 1d10) damage", so if you naturally deal more (as a Large character with a Monk's Belt you do 2d6) then by RAW it does nothing. That said, that's a pretty silly way for things to work and your DM probably won't enforce it. If your DM goes for the more rational interpretation that Fist of the Forest increases your damage as long as you're dealing at least 1d8, then being a Dire Ape lets you deal 3d6, and Improved Natural Attack and Morphic Weapons increase that to 6d6.

(By the way, is your DM putting a limit on the number of natural attacks you can grow as a Warshaper? RAW there isn't one, but that gets silly fast.)

Greater Mighty Wallop can then boost you to 8d6 damage at CL 5, and 12d6 at CL 8. You might be able to get another boost at CL 12, depending on whether Improved Natural Attack's "as if the creature’s size had increased" (and the similar clause in Morphic Weapons) contributes to the Colossal cap of Greater Mighty Wallop.

Regardless, the spell lasts five hours at minimum caster level, so you won't need to drink the potion in combat unless you're ambushed. If you are ambushed, then your (homebrewed) swift-action potion-drinking device would work fine.

[Adverb]

Have you come up with a way to make Power Attack and Improved Unarmed Strike work together? Power Attack usually wants a 2-handed weapon.

[El Mule]

That's where your setup messes up. 2d8 is the unarmed damage of a Medium-sized 16th level Monk, but you've got Improved Natural Attack, so you've got the damage of a Large Monk.

Here's how things actually stack:

First, you aren't a Monk, so upon donning a Monk's Belt you gain the unarmed damage of a 5th level Monk, or 1d8.

Now, your unarmed damage already deals 1d8, so Fist of the Forest increases it by two steps on the Monk class table, to 2d6.

Then your size increases kick in. Being a Dire Ape means you're Large. Technically, this has weird effects, because Fist of the Forest only improves your unarmed damage if you "already deal (1d8 or 1d10) damage", so if you naturally deal more (as a Large character with a Monk's Belt you do 2d6) then by RAW it does nothing. That said, that's a pretty silly way for things to work and your DM probably won't enforce it. If your DM goes for the more rational interpretation that Fist of the Forest increases your damage as long as you're dealing at least 1d8, then being a Dire Ape lets you deal 3d6, and Improved Natural Attack and Morphic Weapons increase that to 6d6.

(By the way, is your DM putting a limit on the number of natural attacks you can grow as a Warshaper? RAW there isn't one, but that gets silly fast.)

Greater Mighty Wallop can then boost you to 8d6 damage at CL 5, and 12d6 at CL 8. You might be able to get another boost at CL 12, depending on whether Improved Natural Attack's "as if the creature’s size had increased" (and the similar clause in Morphic Weapons) contributes to the Colossal cap of Greater Mighty Wallop.

Regardless, the spell lasts five hours at minimum caster level, so you won't need to drink the potion in combat unless you're ambushed. If you are ambushed, then your (homebrewed) swift-action potion-drinking device would work fine.

Ok, wait.
First of all, my assumptions all start from the base rule that bonuses stack in the most beneficial order (it's a rule, IIRC).
So my character is above all a FotF with an unarmed damage of 1d10. The FotF unarmed damage is, in any way, the same of a Monk for the details, and he has to be considered as a Monk for Monk's belt.

Then, we have INA:

The damage for one of the creature's natural attack forms increases by one step, as if the creature's size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

It increases BY ONE STEP regardless of the size, it's not a fixed increase (ie, from Medium to Large).
So for a Medium FotF, the increase is from 1d10 to 2d8 (as a Large monk).
Then, I don the Monk's belt, let's take a look at the FotF unarmed damage entry:

Unarmed Damage (Ex): Your unarmed attacks deal more damage than usual. At 1st level, you deal 1d8 points of damage with each unarmed strike. When you attain 3rd level, this damage increases to 1d10 points. See the monk class feature (PH41). If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table.

Bold part is relevant. As you said, the more rational interpetation is that "if you deal AT LEAST this amoung of damage, etc...". The unarmed damage is already 1d10, the next step would be 2d6, but it already deals 2d8, so the very next step is either 2d10 (Medium Monk progression) or 3d8 (Large Monk progression). This is because I already deal the damage of a 16th level medium monk (and +5 from the belt brings to 2d10) or the damage of a 11th level large monk (and the +5 from the belt brings to 3d8).
Thus, IF the rule of the most beneficial order is applied, the unarmed damage of a Medium FotF with INA and Monk's belt is 2d10 or 3d8.
From here, it's all a matter of size increases: Primeval Form takes him from Medium to Large, remember that INA increases by one step, if the character grows from Medium to Large, INA still applies in the most beneficial order, which takes the damage from 2d10 to 3d10 or from 3d8 to 4d8.
Morphic Weapon then increases from 3d10 to 4d10/4d8 to 5d8, another size category.
Then Greater Mighty Wallop covers the rest.
But I admit it's really a twisted reasoning.

Where is it from the 12dX as capstone of the size increases? I took a quick look at the SRD and the biggest size was Colossal with 8dX, but INA has a progression up to 12dX, too. This means that Greater Mighty Wallop could need a CL12, three size increases and 12d10 per strike. Also, if the caster brews it with the Extend Spell feat, it lasts 24h.

About Morphic Weapon, not sure about the DM, my interpretation is that you can upgrade ONE existing natural attack OR grow ONE additional natural attack. Anyway it doesn't really matter with the Primeval 'cause the Primeval Form only lasts minutes and growing natural attacks requires a move action, but I do see that with wildshape and the duration in hours, growing countless natural attacks ahead of time could result in major cheese :D


Have you come up with a way to make Power Attack and Improved Unarmed Strike work together? Power Attack usually wants a 2-handed weapon.

Sadly, not. PA is a req for Fist of the Forest, I plan to use it anyway in human form with the usual greatsword or whatelse, the character is supposed to be a tribal warrior/mercenary.
As I said it's not an optimized campaign, I'll spend most of the time in human form and release the primeval fury only from time to time, the combo I posted for the dire ape + unarmed strike is more a 'nova' concept to unleash in the hardest fights. I don't like my character to be always 100% in full aggression mode, I like him to be like "look at me I'm a dangerous raging barbarian with a huge sword" and then "look at me now i'm a dangerous raging barbarian morphed into an enormous ape with cannonball fists" :D

[Keld Denar]

I'd go with a reach weapon as your default non-hulked weapon. Probably a glaive, or at least a long spear. You'll have IUAS, so you'll always autothreathen adjacent regardless, but in most cases you can either 5' step and attack or just hulk out and begin the process of separating people's faces from their skulls manually.