Iajitsu Focus-what [3.5]

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys. I looked on the internet concerning iajitsu focus and-HOLY, what in the nine hells. How does it work? You just make the check and boom extra damage? Or is it only when drawing your weapon? Does it only work on flat footed opponents? Thanks, and as always, go nuts.

[Flickerdart]

When you draw a weapon and immediately attack a flat-footed opponent with it, you are allowed to make an Iaijutsu Focus check for extra damage. Subsequent attacks made with the same weapon (even in the same round) don't get the bonus unless you have a way to re-sheath and re-draw it before doing so.

[LTwerewolf]

I'd like to point out that it mixes well with sapphire nightmare blade, especially at low levels.

[Jormengand]

Subsequent attacks made with the same weapon (even in the same round) don't get the bonus unless you have a way to re-sheath and re-draw it before doing so.

Like a gnome quickrazor, for example?

[Malroth]

or a cursed-2 sword you drop between each attack and attempt to draw a different weapon

[Bloodgruve]

Pathfinder has a Blinkback Belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back), returns thrown weapons after an attack is resolved. You'd have to have your DM OK this as you technically wouldn't throw the weapon but you may be able to drop it as a free action. If your DM allows this you could have up to 4 Iaijutsu attacks.

Whisper Gnome + Gnomish Quickrazor + Factotum + Item Familiar (invest for Iaijutsu Focus) + competence bonus item (+5 or +10) gets you well on your way.

Flatfooted is not the easiest condition to create but **if you are hidden from your target they are flatfooted to you**. Hide in Plain Sight and a big Hide skill works, +20DC and concealment to stay hidden in combat but you can make it work. Dark Creature template from ToM gives you HiPS but its an LA+1, worth it though IMHO.

Its a lot of book keeping and dice but it can be effective. Wear a helmet for when your DM starts chucking books at you.

Blood~

**I guess this may not be the case since the latest releases of the core books. It once worked with out a doubt but you should get a ruling from your DM.

[Chronos]

Flatfooted is not the easiest condition to create but if you are hidden from your target they are flatfooted to you.
This is not true. Flatfooted generally causes a loss of dex to AC, but not all things that cause loss of dex to AC count as flatfooted. Enemies are flatfooted when they haven't had a chance to act yet this combat, and when they're trying to balance or climb, but in precious few other circumstances.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Flat-footing Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?186283-Flat-footing-compendium-%283-5%29)

I'll just leave this here, and take my cookie.

[sideswipe]

well done for the compendium. but seriously it is so easy to make people flat footed.

some easy ones -
1. go first in combat.
2. the feat flick of the wrist.
3. the skill tricks hidden draw and sudden draw.
4. dip warblade for sapphire nightmare blade (or feat it with martial study, though then its only once per encounter, not recharged with a swift action).
5. flank

[RedMage125]

Pathfinder has a Blinkback Belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back), returns thrown weapons after an attack is resolved.

What? I created a unique magic item for 3.5 back in like 2004 that did that. It was a bandolier (took up a belt slot, though), and was mainly useful to a dagger-thrower with Quick Draw.

[Bloodgruve]

This is not true. Flatfooted generally causes a loss of dex to AC, but not all things that cause loss of dex to AC count as flatfooted. Enemies are flatfooted when they haven't had a chance to act yet this combat, and when they're trying to balance or climb, but in precious few other circumstances.

Hmm, the Rules Compendium p92 states;

If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another
creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That
creature treats you as if you were invisible (see page 76).

You have to devote a lot of resources to a build like this but it does work.

Blood~

[Yael]

Flat-footing Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?186283-Flat-footing-compendium-%283-5%29)

I'll just leave this here, and take my cookie.

I'm throwing cookies at the monitor, hope they get to you.

[Crake]

or a cursed-2 sword you drop between each attack and attempt to draw a different weapon

I dont get why people keep suggesting this. You need to actually have a weapon to attempt to draw for this to work, In which case, why dont you just actually draw that weapon and not suffer then -2?

[Feint's End]

well done for the compendium. but seriously it is so easy to make people flat footed.

some easy ones -
1. go first in combat.
2. the feat flick of the wrist.
3. the skill tricks hidden draw and sudden draw.
4. dip warblade for sapphire nightmare blade (or feat it with martial study, though then its only once per encounter, not recharged with a swift action).
5. flank

Flanked is not flatfooted

[Jormengand]

I dont get why people keep suggesting this. You need to actually have a weapon to attempt to draw for this to work, In which case, why dont you just actually draw that weapon and not suffer then -2?

Because then when you drop that weapon, you would need another weapon to attempt to draw, and another, and another...

But the quickrazor is probably a better idea, anyway.

[Curmudgeon]

Hmm, the Rules Compendium p92 states;

If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another
creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That
creature treats you as if you were invisible (see page 76).
That's one of the many rules changes snuck into Rules Compendium. Core rules just have the target lose their DEX bonus to AC, not be considered flat-footed. Also note that if you've got a Premium 3.5 Player's Handbook (the ones printed recently, with errata and other changes) it backs out every rules change introduced in RC.

[Bloodgruve]

That's one of the many rules changes snuck into Rules Compendium. Core rules just have the target lose their DEX bonus to AC, not be considered flat-footed. Also note that if you've got a Premium 3.5 Player's Handbook (the ones printed recently, with errata and other changes) it backs out every rules change introduced in RC.

When you say 'backs out' do you mean it negates the RC or did you mean 'backs up'?

Blood~

[Telonius]

You can have some ridiculous scenes if you combine Flick of the Wrist, Quick Draw, Iajutsu Focus, Drunken Master, and the Chicken-Infested flaw. As long as a chicken is ruled to count as a light weapon, you'll be getting Iajutsu damage plus 1d12+regular unarmed strike per chicken.

[Necroticplague]

You can have some ridiculous scenes if you combine Flick of the Wrist, Quick Draw, Iajutsu Focus, Drunken Master, and the Chicken-Infested flaw. As long as a chicken is ruled to count as a light weapon, you'll be getting Iajutsu damage plus 1d12+regular unarmed strike per chicken.

Don't know about the live chicken, but a dead one might count if its a fairly large chicken, via the improvised weapon rules in complete warrior. Iirc it would have to be at least three pounds for a medium creature to consider it a light weapon.

[Curmudgeon]

When you say 'backs out' do you mean it negates the RC or did you mean 'backs up'?
Premium Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Player's Handbook negates the RC on this and many other rules points.
When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence. All the Premium books were published after RC. Those new core books include changes other than the original books + errata files, but none of the Rules Compendium changes were included. As I said, backed out.

[Bloodgruve]

Premium Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Player's Handbook negates the RC on this and many other rules points. All the Premium books were published after RC. Those new core books include changes other than the original books + errata files, but none of the Rules Compendium changes were included. As I said, backed out.

So just to be clear, this effectively reverts the ability to create Flat-footed by being hidden in regards to your target? It no longer works?

[Vaz]

Circle theory. The Rules Compendium states you follow the rules for Invisibility, which only mention that your opponents are Denied Dex.

[Curmudgeon]

So just to be clear, this effectively reverts the ability to create Flat-footed by being hidden in regards to your target? It no longer works?
If your group does have Rules Compendium and doesn't have either of the Premium PH or DMG books, and you accept RC's self-proclaimed final authority claim, then a hidden character treats their opponents as flat-footed. However, if any one of those things isn't correct you default to them just being denied their DEX bonus to AC (i.e., you follow what it says in either old or new PH or DMG).

Circle theory. The Rules Compendium states you follow the rules for Invisibility, which only mention that your opponents are Denied Dex.
Actually, they specifically state that when you're hidden the opponent is treated as flat-footed with respect to you, then they say you're considered invisible and direct you to that page. The ordering means it could be read as an additional condition on top of those already stated on the invisibility page.

[Bloodgruve]

If your group does have Rules Compendium and doesn't have either of the Premium PH or DMG books, and you accept RC's self-proclaimed final authority claim, then a hidden character treats their opponents as flat-footed. However, if any one of those things isn't correct you default to them just being denied their DEX bonus to AC (i.e., you follow what it says in either old or new PH or DMG).

Actually, they specifically state that when you're hidden the opponent is treated as flat-footed with respect to you, then they say you're considered invisible and direct you to that page. The ordering means it could be read as an additional condition on top of those already stated on the invisibility page.

Thank you again Curmudgeon, I stand corrected.

Why did WoTC have to go and release more stuff that just makes this edition more complicated...

Blood~

[Curmudgeon]

Why did WoTC have to go and release more stuff that just makes this edition more complicated...
There are two likely answers:

When WotC decided there was money to be had by reprinting updated older books, it was easiest (cheapest) to just ignore Rules Compendium rather than check every bit of it for how it impacted the core rules. That's consistent with all the stealth rules changes that are in Rules Compendium but not flagged as being changes. :smallsigh:
WotC didn't care about the complications, or really anything having to do with the 3.5 version of the game; their focus is on new stuff.

[Bloodgruve]

What specifically changed in regards to the Premium books being released and this ruling?

Was it simply the new release vs. the RC only taking precedence over older books?

Thanks again,

Blood~

[sideswipe]

Flanked is not flatfooted

my mistake. i normally play other classes that use the DENIED DEX version. which is a pain. the good thing about iaijitsu is that if you try hitting a rogue they say "haha im not flat footed i have my dex bonus" then you draw the rules out and slap them in the same round. just like the iaijitsu does as it still hits them :smallbiggrin:

[Thiyr]

If your group does have Rules Compendium and doesn't have either of the Premium PH or DMG books, and you accept RC's self-proclaimed final authority claim, then a hidden character treats their opponents as flat-footed. However, if any one of those things isn't correct you default to them just being denied their DEX bonus to AC (i.e., you follow what it says in either old or new PH or DMG).

Actually, they specifically state that when you're hidden the opponent is treated as flat-footed with respect to you, then they say you're considered invisible and direct you to that page. The ordering means it could be read as an additional condition on top of those already stated on the invisibility page.

Interesting note. I don't know about the updated PHB, but the original PHB doesn't actually state any game effect occurring as far as hiding. Unless there's something in the DMG (which I haven't looked through as hard, admittedly), hide wouldn't give you any practical combat bonuses, not even denying dex to AC. At that point, there's technically not a contradiction between PHB and RC, just an addition, which I would say should apply like any other added rule.

[Bloodgruve]

Interesting note. I don't know about the updated PHB, but the original PHB doesn't actually state any game effect occurring as far as hiding. Unless there's something in the DMG (which I haven't looked through as hard, admittedly), hide wouldn't give you any practical combat bonuses, not even denying dex to AC. At that point, there's technically not a contradiction between PHB and RC, just an addition, which I would say should apply like any other added rule.

Rules compendium stated that if you're hidden vs you're target your target is flat footed vs you which denies dex bonus and treats you like you're invisible which has its own bonuses IIRC

I misread your post originally. I was wondering this also.

[Anlashok]

It is a little questionable however, as to whether a reprinting of an old book invalidates what the newer book says. It's also a bit of a bizarre position to take because it'd invalidate almost everything else noncore too.

[Curmudgeon]

Interesting note. I don't know about the updated PHB, but the original PHB doesn't actually state any game effect occurring as far as hiding.
The reference is oblique, in that "visually undetectable" applies both to hidden and invisible creatures, and the dictionary treats "invisible" as a synonym for "hidden". From the Glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_invisible&alpha=I), on page 309:
invisible

Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). The plain statement assigning the benefits of the invisible condition to hidden characters in Rules Compendium is clearer.

[Bloodgruve]

I would think in most games if the DM took a look at the latest PHB, original PHB and the Rules Compendium's entry for Hidden causing Flat-footed I'd bet that they'd allow it to work. Unless the DM is super strict and runs everything by RAW. Prolly just have to discuss it with the DM before you bank on using the trick. I'm going to take these changes in the latest releases as oversite on WoTC's part and will allow RC to take precedence. I'm glad I'm aware of them now though.

Got this on the WoTC boards;

"Officially as I understand it, the new premium reprints are not rules updates, they are simply rereleases, so the primary source rules apply. In this case the rules compendium is still considered the primary source, as would the original DMG and Players Handbooks"

I've requested links to official statements but we'll see if I get any.


Blood~

[Curmudgeon]

Got this on the WoTC boards;

"Officially as I understand it, the new premium reprints are not rules updates, they are simply rereleases, so the primary source rules apply. In this case the rules compendium is still considered the primary source, as would the original DMG and Players Handbooks"
Here's at least one example of something that's in the Premium PH but not in either the original PH or in its errata file:
Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. Here's the original; there are no errata changes to Spring Attack.
Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. This certainly looks like a rules update to me. I guess this is consistent: Rules Compendium is advertised as just a collection of rules, with nothing outside the book indicating it changes any of them. So it makes sense that the Premium books are also advertised as containing errata but no other rules changes.

[Nettlekid]

To drag this back to the Iaijutsu discussion, I was wondering, could it in some way be combined with the Osteomancer from Dragon Compendium? What draws my attention is that as a free action the Osteomancer can produce or retract his Bone Spurs, which do damage as a spiked gauntlet. Now I guess you'd need a DM to agree that producing them is the same as drawing them, but I think that's an easy sell. Once you do that, you'd be able to *snikt* out, slice, and *snikt* back in, either to do it again in a full attack or for next round. I think it's cool since you'd be able to do 9d6 damage with each attack pretty easily, and appear unarmed to anyone until the moment you do it.

Would there be any way to get that to work? I know the Osteomancer is a bit lackluster in terms of class features, though it has some interesting ones. There's Cha synergy between the Osteomancer's DCs and the Iaijutsu Master's Strike From the Void, if you took five levels in that as well. If your DM decides that being able to cast 3 Transmutation spells doesn't necessarily mean all at once, or all in the same day, then Factotum 3/Full BAB 2 is a pretty good setup into Osteomancer. If not, one of those full BAB levels can be from Duskblade maybe. Or instead of Factotum start out with Battle Sorcerer, though I don't know how you'd manage to get Iaijutsu Focus in that case.

What else might be done to make the Osteomancer a better user of Iaijutsu Focus? Or is that just a dumb idea?

[Vaz]

There re no rules to retract the bonespurs. I looked for that reason especially during the Iron Chef.

There is no need to advance Osteomancer more than gaining the bone slurs ability.

[Zombulian]

When you draw a weapon and immediately attack a flat-footed opponent with it, you are allowed to make an Iaijutsu Focus check for extra damage. Subsequent attacks made with the same weapon (even in the same round) don't get the bonus unless you have a way to re-sheath and re-draw it before doing so.

I'd like to point out that a weird thing you can do with Iaijutsu is draw a melee weapon, and then attack with a different weapon than what you drew.

[Doc_Maynot]

I'd like to point out that a weird thing you can do with Iaijutsu is draw a melee weapon, and then attack with a different weapon than what you drew.

Yes, I once did this on a Manyshot Factotum with a -2 Sword and Quickdraw.

[Zombulian]

Yes, I once did this on a Manyshot Factotum with a -2 Sword and Quickdraw.

How did you Manyshot when all you can draw is a -2 Sword? o.O

[Doc_Maynot]

How did you Manyshot when all you can draw is a -2 Sword? o.O

1. Start with bow in hand. (Pull it out while you have a -2 sword in hand, then drop the sword)
2. Use arrow pulling hand to draw a dagger, which was instead the -2 sword and drop it (both free actions)
3. Retrieve arrows (not a weapon)
4. Fire arrows
5. Repeat steps 2-4

[Nettlekid]

There re no rules to retract the bonespurs. I looked for that reason especially during the Iron Chef.

There is no need to advance Osteomancer more than gaining the bone slurs ability.

Wow. You are quite right. That is amazingly dumb. I guess RAW you're stuck with them out forever as soon as you protrude them once, except if you dissolve your skeleton I suppose.

[Zombulian]

1. Start with bow in hand. (Pull it out while you have a -2 sword in hand, then drop the sword)
2. Use arrow pulling hand to draw a dagger, which was instead the -2 sword and drop it (both free actions)
3. Retrieve arrows (not a weapon)
4. Fire arrows
5. Repeat steps 2-4

Ah, I used to do a slightly more complex version of that trick. Had a swordbow that I would quickdraw as a sword, turn into a bow, then Slight of Hand check to hide it on my person again.