Ok.. whats more powerful?

[ngilop]

my Healer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272245-Healer-Re-tooled-please-critique) 19

OR

Cleric 8 / Radiant servant 10/ Heirophant 1?

I am just wondering becuase this is really making no sense to me

healer was too powerful because "choose (22) best cleric spells that aren't healing"

but. somehow straight cleric is weaker?

[Segev]

but. somehow straight cleric is weaker?

Well, yes. Straight clerics just aren't FABULOUS enough!

*ducks and RUNS!*

[OldTrees1]

So this is about the class feature gained at 17th level correct?

Favored Soul(tier 2) has more than 20 cleric spells known and that places it easily in Tier 2. Your healer re-tooled already has several decent cleric spells on their list prior to 17th level. At 17th level their spell list improves to around the same quality as an individual Favored Soul. Obviously your Healer Re-tooled has better class features than a Favored Soul.


Why is the comparison to a Radiant Servant of Pelor?

[ngilop]

radiant servant is all about healing.

And a cleric has 100% access to every cleric spell EVR all a healer can do is heal and buff allies except for those 22 spells

but somehow getting those 17 spells is game breaking while a cleric who has 100% access to those naturally is just completely weaker?

does that mean beguilers are more powerful than sorcererrs then?

[Jack_Simth]

ngilop: I'm confused. You are posting in such a way that would indicate to me that you're responding to a specific comment from someone, but I'm not seeing any particular evidence of this mysterious comment, either in this thread or the linked homebrew thread.

And power is... relative. Your healer has a higher power floor than does a pure Cleric (or that Radiant Servant), but you do have a lower power ceiling... although not by much. You've got a mostly-decent list (lots of healing, of course, but also a decent amount of buffs, some crowd control, and a few save-or-lose... but you also have a little direct-offence starting at 1st) and later add some crazy-good ones (such as Gate). Then at 17th or so you tack on a largish number of spells... and do the whole thing spontaneously.

So... yeah, at 19th, stronger than most favoured souls with equal optimization, gets beaten by a well-optimized cleric at equal optimization, beats a poorly-optimized cleric at equal optimization.

So... if someone said something along the lines of "That's way stronger than a Radiant Servant of Pelor!" you were probably speaking with someone who was close-ish to the optimization floor for a cleric build.

[Der_DWSage]

Eh. Part of it is that it's homebrew-homebrew always has the issue that it needs to be approved first, and it's often difficult to balance every tiny detail in advance.

Secondly...well, the re-tooled Healer is better at the Cleric/Radiant Servant at healing. That's probably a big part of why he's throwing a fit. It has one job, does it quite well, and could potentially raise the bar with the 17th level ability. I agree that I'd prefer a Healer 19 myself, but I can see your point.

Perhaps ask this GM if they'd approve a Healer 19 if he got to look over the spells you added himself, and remove anything he doesn't think is thematically appropriate?

[ngilop]

whether or not the healer is better at healing ( i meand damn its CALLED the healer shouldn't i be better?) is not the point of the matter

its that the healer with his spell list and gettign 22 new spells form the cleric MAKES the healer mor epowerful than the standard cleric becuase he just got those 22 all powerful cleric spells.


tell me how that makes any sense

cleric gets ALL the cleric spells

heale gets healer spell list.. never EVER heard of healng breaking a game and 22 cleric spells of whihc it has to be 2 of each spell level + 2 of player's choice.

SO what you are telling me is that the healer is beyond even 'tier' 1 becuase he is able ot pick up 22 cleric spells even though the cleric has ya know' EVERY cleric spell in existance?

[eggynack]

SO what you are telling me is that the healer is beyond even 'tier' 1 becuase he is able ot pick up 22 cleric spells even though the cleric has ya know' EVERY cleric spell in existance?
I don't really see anyone saying anything even close to this, in this or any thread. What are you talking about?

[OldTrees1]

heale gets healer spell list.. never EVER heard of healng breaking a game and 22 cleric spells of whihc it has to be 2 of each spell level + 2 of player's choice.

SO what you are telling me is that the healer is beyond even 'tier' 1 becuase he is able ot pick up 22 cleric spells even though the cleric has ya know' EVERY cleric spell in existance?

Who in the world are you talking to? These posts look like you are directly replying to someone. However I can't find any trace of who you are talking to. Nobody in this thread said your Healer was beyond Tier 1.

[bekeleven]

whether or not the healer is better at healing ( i meand damn its CALLED the healer shouldn't i be better?) is not the point of the matter

its that the healer with his spell list and gettign 22 new spells form the cleric MAKES the healer mor epowerful than the standard cleric becuase he just got those 22 all powerful cleric spells.


tell me how that makes any sense

cleric gets ALL the cleric spells

heale gets healer spell list.. never EVER heard of healng breaking a game and 22 cleric spells of whihc it has to be 2 of each spell level + 2 of player's choice.

SO what you are telling me is that the healer is beyond even 'tier' 1 becuase he is able ot pick up 22 cleric spells even though the cleric has ya know' EVERY cleric spell in existance?

The difference is that your healer can, at level 17, cast those 20 spells as well as

1: Cures, resurgence, Pro. Evil
2: Aid, Cures, Buffs, Hold Person, Lesser Restoration, Resist Energy
3: Cures, Daylight, Haste, Restoration, Mass Resist Energy, Tongues
4: Cures, Death Ward, Delay Death, Freedom of Movement, Panacea, Greater Resist, Stoneskin
5: Cures, Heal, Raise Dead, Revivify, True Seeing
6: Greater Resto, Hero's Feast, Superior Resist, Regenerate
7: Fortunate Fate, REsurrection, Renewal Pact, Holy Word, Holy Star
8: Mass Death Ward, Mind Blank, Mass Heal
9: Foresight, Gate, True Resurrection

...And more.

....All spontaneously.

...With more spell slots per day (but no delayed access).

...Some at lower levels than cleric.

Lack of domains will hurt it, of course.

[Feint's End]

whether or not the healer is better at healing ( i meand damn its CALLED the healer shouldn't i be better?) is not the point of the matter

its that the healer with his spell list and gettign 22 new spells form the cleric MAKES the healer mor epowerful than the standard cleric becuase he just got those 22 all powerful cleric spells.


tell me how that makes any sense

cleric gets ALL the cleric spells

heale gets healer spell list.. never EVER heard of healng breaking a game and 22 cleric spells of whihc it has to be 2 of each spell level + 2 of player's choice.

SO what you are telling me is that the healer is beyond even 'tier' 1 becuase he is able ot pick up 22 cleric spells even though the cleric has ya know' EVERY cleric spell in existance?

OK so I'm not sure if this really violates the forum rules but I think people agree with me on this one if I say you could take slightly more time to type out your sentences and use proper phrasing. The post would probably be less confusing then.

Secondly the healer you posted is definitely solid and as mentioned has a higher floor than the low op heal spamming cleric .... However in high op the cleric still comes out on top. The ability to swap out spells + the support clerics have is just that good.

[OldTrees1]

The difference is that your healer can, at level 17, cast those 20 spells as well as
-snip-

...And more.

....All spontaneously.

...With more spell slots per day (but no delayed access).

...Some at lower levels than cleric.

Lack of domains will hurt it, of course.

So a Favored Soul with fewer good spells known, more healing class features, and no delayed access? All this at 17th+ level.

[Dorian Gray]

Optimized straight cleric is more powerful than your class. But there are two problems with that statement. The first is that straight cleric is already borked- you don't want to make your healer as good as a prc-ed up cleric, because a cleric with the right prcs is game breaking. The second issue with that is that cleric is at least in the core rulebooks, while your homebrew class is... homebrew.

These mean that your DM looks at this class and thinks something along the lines of, "Wow, this guy is bringing me this really powerful class and expecting me to let him play it? Why doesn't he just play a favored soul? Why doesn't he just play a cleric, if he wants to healbot?"

[SpawnOfMorbo]

OP, did someone or a DM say something like the healer was broken or more over powered than that cleric build or what?

I'm getting that either that is the case or I'm not seeing all the posts on this thread.

[bekeleven]

So a Favored Soul with fewer good spells known, more healing class features, and no delayed access? All this at 17th+ level.

Fewer good spells known? Rather subjective. It knows foresight, gate, true resurrection, undeath's eternal foe, wail of the banshee, and up to 4 more 9th level spells, all at level 17. A favored soul gets its 4th known at 20.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I wouldn't say that the one 17th level ability makes him better than a cleric, but it does suddenly shoot you into Tier 2 territory-- all of a sudden, you can pick up gamebreaking spells like gate and miracle. Slap that on top of a solid list of healy-buffy spells, and yeah, you've got a pretty strong character. No cleric strong, sure, but I'd certainly rate it above a Favored Soul. So... yeah, I'd say it's an unbalancing ability. Whether or not it's too much depends on the game, but it turns you into a T2 character.

But that's only at the highest levels, where play rarely reaches. The bigger reason, in my opinion, is how sudden the ability is. For most of the game, you're a healer. Then, all at once, you're a general divine caster who happens to know a lot of healing spells. Better, I would say, to dribble out your advanced learning spells-- say, one at each even-numbered level. Grant fewer overall, and make it a more natural progression. (Not to mention making it accessible in common play).

But I have to agree with the general sentiment: who are you responding to here?

[Tantum Umbra]

-




This belongs to the homebrew section



-

[OldTrees1]

Fewer good spells known? Rather subjective. It knows foresight, gate, true resurrection, undeath's eternal foe, wail of the banshee, and up to 4 more 9th level spells, all at level 17. A favored soul gets its 4th known at 20.

At 18th the Favored Soul has
9/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/4/3

You listed
At 17th the Healer has
0+2/3+2/6+2/6+2/7+2/5+2/4+2/5+2/3+2/3+2
+2 of any level

So I guess I was wrong. 64(Healer @ 17-20) > 57-60(Favored Soul @ 18-20). We are still solidly in Tier 2 and not competing with a Tier 1 Cleric.

[ngilop]

SO, should i pare it back to maybe 1 spell of each level?

and I was just mind blonw that literally healer was denied becuase they cna pick the best of cleric spells but a DMM optimized cleric and a meta magic reduced 'hybrid' ( 9th level spells in 7th slots kinda stuff) I dislike using the term gish

was allowed but because my healer got those 'most powerful cleric spells ever' No was the answer..

I know that homebrew has to overcome a stigma to begin with.

I just could not wrap my head around how a healer getting his pick of cleric spells make him beyond 'broken' while anybody can say 'a cleric has those spell to begin with. no 'choice' involved.

It was nothing else except the healer might pick the totally over powerful and grame breaking cleric spells is too much. but a cleric who gets those spells just as a matter of fact is completely balanced.

SOrry just venting I guess oh well. i think it was really late when i posted that one reply.

[Doc_Maynot]

It's the fact that when making a homebrew, you don't compare them to T1s, compare them to T2s or T3s that can do about the same thing.

The issue mostly stems not from being a fixed list spontaneous caster, but from the fact that once they get 9ths they can get 4 more on top of that, and then 2 more of each.
In comparison the Favored Soul (which is the Cleric's "Sorcerer" brother) doesn't even have 9th levels yet and at max can only get four 9th level spells known.
My recommendation is make it more like the fixed list casters and their Eclectic Learning ACF.
Which lets them learn a wizard (Which in this case, would be Cleric) spell one level lower than they normally could cast at 3rd, 6th, 11th, and 16th.
To try to avoid the new dead level gap, maybe something like:

"Healing Surge- A Healer of 17th level adds their Charisma Modifier to each die rolled on a spell used to heal hit point damage. At the same time if a spell that would normally heal hit points is used to deal damage to an undead creature, they may add their Charisma Modifier to the amount of damage dealt. This ability replaces the benefit granted by Healing Hands."

Or just change the levels when they get "Divine Teachings" (The Ecclectic Learning proposal)

Also, seeing as you took new life away from being the capstone of the class. Perhaps put it back to once per week. If there was nothing left to gain after, I could see the if being once a day thing maybe. Just the addition of the capstone afterwards brought some issues to that IMHO.

All in all, the power of the second build you listed doesn't come from the PrCs and the bonuses they give, but from the base's versatility. Which you just won't aren't supposed to get from a fixed list caster, again that is why you don't compare dissimilar classes. It's like asking what's more powerful a Commoner 20, or a Factotum 5.