Elf subraces?

[RedMage125]

I've recently been given a set of pathfinder books. I've avoided PF like the plague since it came out, sticking to D&D (both 3.5e and 4e), but the more I read, the more I like it. However, in Elves of Golarion, I found mention of Gray, Wild, and Aquatic Elves.

Are there separate stats for these races? And if so, where can they be found?

[Leviting]

Here, elves are mingled throughout all the others, though (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantRaces.htm)

[MonkeySage]

I don't have that book, but i'd concluded that at least between gray elves and high elves, the main differences would be aesthetic... and I just made up my own stats for wood and wild, taking inspiration from 3.5. I haven't done anything with aquatic yet.

I haven't actually used the Golarian setting and have stuck with the grayhawk pantheon for my on going campaign.

[Crake]

Here, elves are mingled throughout all the others, though (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantRaces.htm)

Jumping the gun a bit there without reading the post huh?

Have you checked the beastiary? They were in the monster manual in 3.5.

[Leviting]

crap, missed the pathfinder part

[RedMage125]

Lol, there is no elf entry in the Bestiary.

And I, too am thinking about converting any 3.5 I play from now on into 3.P.

Basically play D&D, but use PF mechanics (classes, skills, etc.)

[Oneris]

ISWG has the stats for Aquatic Elves (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/race-points-unknown/aquatic-elves).

[Spore]

Use those (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elf) and slap on appropriate attribute bonusses to bring them on par with other standard races.

Aquatic: +2 Str
Gray Elf: +2 Dex
Wild Elf: +2 Cha
Wood Elf: +2 Wis

[avr]

Some of the differences are covered by alternate racial traits, see the Advanced Race Guide or take a look at the elf race on d20pfsrd.

[Yanisa]

Here, elves are mingled throughout all the others, though (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantRaces.htm)

First off, this dude is right. Elves of Golarion is a 3.5 Golarion book. So you either need to convert the 3.5 races to pathfinder, or make your own.

Secondly, there are Elf Subtypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf#TOC-Racial-Subtypes), but limited to Arctic, Dusk, Savage and Tower Elves.

[RedMage125]

First off, this dude is right. Elves of Golarion is a 3.5 Golarion book. So you either need to convert the 3.5 races to pathfinder, or make your own.

Secondly, there are Elf Subtypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf#TOC-Racial-Subtypes), but limited to Arctic, Dusk, Savage and Tower Elves.

Ok, I am new to Pathfinder (like-I recieved these books day before yesterday-new).

What is a 3.5 Golarion book?

I was under the impression that Pathfinder was a new system from the get-go, when WotC made 4e and people were unhappy?

[Yanisa]

Ok, I am new to Pathfinder (like-I recieved these books day before yesterday-new).

What is a 3.5 Golarion book?

I was under the impression that Pathfinder was a new system from the get-go, when WotC made 4e and people were unhappy?

Golarion, the campaign setting, started before Pathfinder was even a thing. A couple of the early campaign setting books and adventure modules are written with the 3.5 DnD rules.

[RedMage125]

Golarion, the campaign setting, started before Pathfinder was even a thing. A couple of the early campaign setting books and adventure modules are written with the 3.5 DnD rules.

Ah, and since gray, wild and aquatic elves are in the core 3.5 rules, they were included in Golarion...

So as of Pathfinder, there are no gray elves, yes?

[Yanisa]

Ah, and since gray, wild and aquatic elves are in the core 3.5 rules, they were included in Golarion...

So as of Pathfinder, there are no gray elves, yes?

As far as I know, no statted gray elves.

The pathfinder wiki (http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Gray_elves) does bring this up: "The elves of Mordant Spire (sometimes called gray elves)". So within the setting some group of elves are still called Gray Elves, but again they have no stats associated with them. It's just a name now.

Edit: I must say I am not an expert in Golarion, I just found this tidbit by Google when I doubled checked if there really weren't Gray Elves.

[ArqArturo]

This is actually what I dislike about 3.5, the obsession with elf subraces.

[Spore]

This is actually what I dislike about 3.5, the obsession with elf subraces.

A dwarf is a dwarf, a gnome is a gnome but somehow people always try to "out-elf" the other elves.

[ArqArturo]

A dwarf is a dwarf, a gnome is a gnome but somehow people always try to "out-elf" the other elves.

My belief is that elves are pokemon, more specifically, related to the Eevee.

[RedMage125]

This is actually what I dislike about 3.5, the obsession with elf subraces.

I like Elf wizards, and so Gray Elves (or Sun Elves in FR) were always my favorite. However, I do agree that 3.5 (and especially FR) went overboard with the elf subraces (star elves, avariel, dusk elves, dark elves, wood elves, wild elves, gray elves, high elves(called moon elves in FR), sun elves, and those are just the first few that come to mind without looking any up).

[Raven777]

My belief is that elves are pokemon, more specifically, related to the Eevee.

It makes sense though (in some crazy, convoluted sort of way). Being more in tune with their environment, Elves, out of all the races, are the most likely candidates to develop features associated with it.

[Yanisa]

It is not just Elves, almost any core race has tons of sub races in 3.5.

[RedMage125]

It is not just Elves, almost any core race has tons of sub races in 3.5.

Yeah, but even if you exclude the "environmental" (which includes planar) variants, of which there are some of every race, elves still had the most.

[Yanisa]

Yeah, but even if you exclude the "environmental" (which includes planar) variants, of which there are some of every race, elves still had the most.

I dunno, dwarves seems awfully prominent on the master race list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281.0) (22 Dwarf subraces vs 18 Elf subraces and the environmental ones seem decently equal.). :smalltongue:

But yeah, Elves are the most famous. But sub races is a general common thing in 3.5.
Pathfinder deals with it a bit trough alternative race features. The sub races idea is still there, you just need to build them yourself.

[RedMage125]

I dunno, dwarves seems awfully prominent on the master race list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281.0) (22 Dwarf subraces vs 18 Elf subraces and the environmental ones seem decently equal.). :smalltongue:

But yeah, Elves are the most famous. But sub races is a general common thing in 3.5.
Pathfinder deals with it a bit trough alternative race features. The sub races idea is still there, you just need to build them yourself.

That list doesn't show ones with LAs. Avariels I know had LAs, and some other subraces might have, too

[Yanisa]

That list doesn't show ones with LAs. Avariels I know had LAs, and some other subraces might have, too

In all likelihood dwarves probably score a decent second place, only a few less then elves (I did not count elves which are not named elf; For example, Drow, Kagonesti, Qualinesti, Silvanesti, etc), yet no one complains about dwarves being massively subraced.

[da_chicken]

In all likelihood dwarves probably score a decent second place, only a few less then elves (I did not count elves which are not named elf; For example, Drow, Kagonesti, Qualinesti, Silvanesti, etc), yet no one complains about dwarves being massively subraced.

That's because 90% of Dwarf subraces are mechanically identical to the base Dwarf, especialliy with respect to ability mods. Elf subraces, OTOH, tend to encourage snowflake builds. There's the Elf for Fighter, the Elf for Rogue, the Elf for Wizard, the Elf for Cleric and the Elf for Bard. Thus, the perception is that players select Elf subraces for mechanical benefit, and Dwarf subraces for fluff.

[Yanisa]

That's because 90% of Dwarf subraces are mechanically identical to the base Dwarf, especialliy with respect to ability mods. Elf subraces, OTOH, tend to encourage snowflake builds. There's the Elf for Fighter, the Elf for Rogue, the Elf for Wizard, the Elf for Cleric and the Elf for Bard. Thus, the perception is that players select Elf subraces for mechanical benefit, and Dwarf subraces for fluff.

Ah, I never realized that.

It is the same reason why Aasimar and Tieflings are so popular in pathfinder society, due the allowed variants they have ability modifiers for almost every class. (And they are already a strong base race, even without variants.)

[ArqArturo]

That's because 90% of Dwarf subraces are mechanically identical to the base Dwarf, especialliy with respect to ability mods. Elf subraces, OTOH, tend to encourage snowflake builds. There's the Elf for Fighter, the Elf for Rogue, the Elf for Wizard, the Elf for Cleric and the Elf for Bard. Thus, the perception is that players select Elf subraces for mechanical benefit, and Dwarf subraces for fluff.

Yup. Dream Dwarves, some of the Forgotten Realms dwarves, and maybe the Gully Dwarves from Dragonlance are the 10%. Otherwise, it's actually kind of comforting to see dwarves being consistent.

[Spore]

it's actually kind of comforting to see dwarves being consistent.

That's the entire main motif of the race, damnit. If the environment changes for Dwarves, they change it back. If the environment changes for Elves, they adapt.

[Gemini476]

Yup. Dream Dwarves, some of the Forgotten Realms dwarves, and maybe the Gully Dwarves from Dragonlance are the 10%. Otherwise, it's actually kind of comforting to see dwarves being consistent.
Don't forget Duergar, their psionic version, deep dwarves, or athasian dwarves!
There are a few that are different, but a lot of them are different in the traits rather than the the ability scores.

A dwarf is a dwarf, a gnome is a gnome but somehow people always try to "out-elf" the other elves.

The only PHB races without subraces in the MM are Humans, Half-Elfs, and Half-Orcs. And even then those are all pretty closely related and also the Half-X have some variants in the DMG (like Half-Human Elves).
Dwarves have Hill Dwarves, Mountain Dwarves, Deep Dwarves, and Duergar.
Gnomes have Rock Gnomes, Forest Gnomes, and Svirfneblin.
Elves have High Elves, Aquatic Elves, Gray Elves, Wild Elves, Wood Elves and Drow.

There's a lot of variants outside of Core as well, but Elves don't have a monopoly.

[RedMage125]

The only PHB races without subraces in the MM are Humans, Half-Elfs, and Half-Orcs. And even then those are all pretty closely related and also the Half-X have some variants in the DMG (like Half-Human Elves).
Dwarves have Hill Dwarves, Mountain Dwarves, Deep Dwarves, and Duergar.
Gnomes have Rock Gnomes, Forest Gnomes, and Svirfneblin.
Elves have High Elves, Aquatic Elves, Gray Elves, Wild Elves, Wood Elves and Drow.

There's a lot of variants outside of Core as well, but Elves don't have a monopoly.

No, but if you count all the books from wotc-published sources, including all variations with and without level adjustments, elves outnumber the others.

God forbid you bring Dragon magazine into the picture...

[Gemini476]

No, but if you count all the books from wotc-published sources, including all variations with and without level adjustments, elves outnumber the others.

God forbid you bring Dragon magazine into the picture...

Those are fighting words.
Player races: +0 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281.0), +1 & +2 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=342.0).
We already have some numbers upthread that say that Elves have 18 +0 races there and Dwarves have 22.

Here's what they have for +1:
Elves
Elf, Aquatic (Stormwrack), +2 Dex, -2 Int, medium Humanoid (Aquatic), swim 40 ft.,
Sea Elf (DLCS), medium, 30 ft., swim 30 ft., breathe water
-Dargonesti: +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Cha; DV 60 ft., alternate form
-Dimernesti: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Int, -2 Cha, alternate form

Dwarves
Dwarf, Duergar (mm1/xph), +2 Con, -4 Cha, medium Humanoid, 20ft., DV 120 ft

+2:
Elves:
Drow (MM1): +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha; medium Humanoid; 30 ft.; DV 120 ft., SR 11+CL
Phaeton (Key of Destiny): -2 Str, +2 Wis; medium humanoid (elf, fire); 30 ft., fly 60 ft. average
Drow, Albino (Szarkai) – medium humanoid (elf) (DotU) +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha, SR, SLAs, Wizard (M) or Cleric (F)
Drow, Deepwyrm - medium humanoid (elf, dragonblood) (DM) +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha, SR, SLAs, Wizard (M) or Cleric (F)

Dwarves:
Dwarf, Arctic (RoF): +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha; small humanoid; 20 ft., DV 60 ft., immune to cold
Dwarf, Gray (Duergar) (FRCS): +2 Con, -4 Cha; medium Humanoid; 20 ft., DV 120 ft.

So after adding up the numbers, for LA+0-+2 races with no hit dice there are 26 elves and 25 dwarves.
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Although I guess if you go with the 4e-ism of just outright making Eladrin into better-than-the-guys-who-are-better-than-you Elves you can add another dozen into that pile. They aren't elves in 3E, though. And as long as they aren't, it looks to me as if Dwarves are tied with Elves for most sub-races.


And do note that once you get out of core not even humans are exempt from getting sub-races!

Humans: Aventi, Azurin, Deep Imaskari, Extaminar, Human, Complacent Human, Silverbrow Human, Illumian, Mongrelfolk, Neanderthal, Sea Kin, Underfolk, Varsharan
The list is even missing some races, like Karsites and I guess maybe Eberron Changelings (although I don't know much about them). Humans got a surprising amount of love when it comes to this,

[Psyren]

This is one of the purposes behind the Race Builder. Start with a basic elf and then tweak it to get the properties of the subrace you want. You can even recreate things like Avariels or Driders as playable races.


Ah, I never realized that.

It is the same reason why Aasimar and Tieflings are so popular in pathfinder society, due the allowed variants they have ability modifiers for almost every class. (And they are already a strong base race, even without variants.)

They're popular but you have to be playing PFS for a while to unlock them anyway. And in non-PFS play you can simply create your desired subrace (with your DM's assistance.)

[RedMage125]

Gemini, you're still missing the ones with LA above 2.

Avariel and Fey'ri come to mind, both from FR.

And dot hose lists include Dragon Magazine? Because Dragon had numerous subtypes of elves. From the "dusk elves" to a subset of drow from Eberron that were inspired by the strategy game Dragonshards.

[ArqArturo]

I think Forgotten Realms also has a race of winged elves, I'm not sure.

Hell, ogres don't have a lot, yet they do: The Irda, the ogre magis, and I think there's a half-ogre, too.

[atemu1234]

This is actually what I dislike about 3.5, the obsession with elf subraces.

I found subraces for other races too, and I know of very few other elf subraces besides those in UA and MM.

[RedMage125]

I think Forgotten Realms also has a race of winged elves, I'm not sure.

Avariel = Winged Elves. LA of +3