Illusions and Mindless Monsters

[Wacky89]

Hey so I was discussing with one of my players wether he could use silent image to create a box around of my zombies.
Then I found this article from wizard, but I dont really understand what it means. Can you guys help me out?

Illusions and Mindless Creatures

Unraveling an illusion is partly a matter of intellect, but mostly a matter of analysis and perception. Any creature can attempt to disbelieve an illusion because every creature has a Wisdom score. A mindless creature, however, is much less likely to find something just plainly unbelievable (and thus gain a saving throw to disbelieve with no study or interaction) than a creature with an Intelligence score would be. A mindless creature lacks an internal catalog of memories and expectations that can generate the level of incredulity required to evoke instant disbelief.

[Yanisa]

It's the same logic my 3.5 DM uses. Undeads are too stupid to even consider things are an illusion and will always fail there Will Save to disbelieve Illusions. Even if their hands go trough a box they don't think "illusion" but think "strange and unknown magic". Thus they cannot see trough the box ever.

But that is fluff rather then rules. Logical, decently common sense fluff, but it can be very powerful. Half my 3.5 campaign is filled with people that don't known about illusions, so being a shadow illusionist myself I have a huge advantage. Any shadow illusion I throw around is just basically the normal spell.

[Wacky89]

what does this mean then?
and thus gain a saving throw to disbelieve with no study or interaction

[Yanisa]

The statement between the parenthesis refers to how normal intelligent creature react to a unbelievable illusion. Basically if you make an illusion that is so unbelievable, a smart person can reason "yeah that is impossible" and gets a will save to disbelieve without interacting with the illusion.

[ChocoSuisse]

It's the same logic my 3.5 DM uses. Undeads are too stupid to even consider things are an illusion and will always fail there Will Save to disbelieve Illusions. Even if their hands go trough a box they don't think "illusion" but think "strange and unknown magic". Thus they cannot see trough the box ever.
This is a different case : there is an interaction if their hands go through the box, so normal rules apply.

The difference with midnless creature is, when they see an obvious illusionist gnome summon a lava pit under his own feet, they won't think "wait : the lava pit is probably an illusion" and get a free roll. They just assume the lava pit is real until an interaction occurs.

[HighWater]

what does this mean then?
and thus gain a saving throw to disbelieve with no study or interaction

The "gain a saving throw" clause refers to those with a mind, it is an example of the benefits of having a mind when confronted with illusions.

If, for instance, a creature with a mind spots a lake of lava, but it's drifing along the room, seems to be stuck in an infinite loop (with a glitchy reset) and doesn't give off any heat, they get a free saving throw, before they have to start prodding it with sticks.

A mindless undead will go "gosh darnit, FLOATING LAVA, Imma get BURRRRNED"
Except, you know, they can't really think.

Maybe a better example would be an illusion of pesky adventurers running into lava, but not getting burned at all.
A normal person would go "huh, that's strange" -> saving throw,
A mindless undead would go "must munch on delicious brains!" and storm straight into lava chasing after the illusion.

I had a LOT of trouble coming up with an illusion that is obviously false in a world filled with magic. To be honest, there are legitimate ways to recreate the above examples without using any illusion, so... Make of that what you will.

[Yanisa]

This is a different case : there is an interaction if their hands go through the box, so normal rules apply.

The difference with mindless creature is, when they see an obvious illusionist gnome summon a lava pit under his own feet, they won't think "wait : the lava pit is probably an illusion" and get a free roll. They just assume the lava pit is real until an interaction occurs.

Yeah, my example is one of interacting... It's hard to come up with examples. A lava pit appearing can also be stone to lava or another spell. There must be a lot of chess logic involved to disbelieve an illusion before interacting. Most people lack chess logic, thus disbelieving an illusion before interacting is near impossible anyways.

[Wacky89]

would a zombie try to remove the box or would they just stand still forever?

[HighWater]

would a zombie try to remove the box or would they just stand still forever?


Because of their utter lack of intelligence, the instructions given to a newly created zombie must be very simple.

The example given is "attack anyone in this room". Though zombie miners etc. are also not unheard off.

I think there's a good chance an uninstructed zombie will not have the independent thought to try and remove the box. Instead they would probably switch to fighting as if blinded, until instructed by their master to do otherwise...

[Yanisa]

would a zombie try to remove the box or would they just stand still forever?

They can still walk forward trough the box, which means the illusionist need to move the illusion on his next turn. After that happens a normal mindfull person would realize it is the same illusory box and makes a save even before touching it again, the mindless undead would not realize that and be again foiled by the illusion.

[Segev]

A good variant on this is also a variant on a dirty trick I like to pull with Silent Image. It normally requires other ingredients, but for dealing with mindless undead:

Silent Image of a thick-as-pea-soup fog bank that obscures sight even inches in front of one's face. Inform your party it's an illusion. The mindless creatures are unable to even comprehend the warning unless spoken by their master ("Disbelieve the illusory fog, my minions!"). They fight blind, and your party can see through the illusion easily (what with their +4 to the will save from being told outright that it's just an illusion, and it being a 1st level spell so the DC is 11+casting stat mod).

[Fouredged Sword]

If a zombie is told to stand in front of a door and attack anyone they see, then putting a illusionary box around the zombie would work, and unless the box touches the zombie, it wouldn't get a save.

[Wacky89]

the zombies were animated to attack the intruders, so you would let silent image auto-kill the zombies?

[jedipotter]

Hey so I was discussing with one of my players wether he could use silent image to create a box over the heads of my zombies.
Then I found this article from wizard, but I dont really understand what it means. Can you guys help me out?




First off, note that you can not cast silent image on a creature or an object. So you can't make a box over the head of a zombie, or any other creature. Silent image is a figment and only glamors can change the appearance of a creature.


Anything with no mind, gets no will save to disbelieve an illusion: a mindless creature thinks all illusions are real. But then you have to decide ''how mindless is mindless'' and ''how do mindless things see reality''. After all, mindless creatures are not truly ''mindless''. They can follow orders, for example. And a mindless zombie would not just walk into a wall and then stay there forever and just keep walking into the wall. A ''mindless'' zombie can walk across a bridge and won't just walk over a cliff. A ''mindless'' zombie won't just walk into a blazing fire.....if a fire was blazing the zombies would walk around the fire to attack, right?

So it depends on how ''mindless'' things are....

[Wacky89]

First off, note that you can not cast silent image on a creature or an object. So you can't make a box over the head of a zombie, or any other creature. Silent image is a figment and only glamors can change the appearance of a creature.


Anything with no mind, gets no will save to disbelieve an illusion: a mindless creature thinks all illusions are real. But then you have to decide ''how mindless is mindless'' and ''how do mindless things see reality''. After all, mindless creatures are not truly ''mindless''. They can follow orders, for example. And a mindless zombie would not just walk into a wall and then stay there forever and just keep walking into the wall. A ''mindless'' zombie can walk across a bridge and won't just walk over a cliff. A ''mindless'' zombie won't just walk into a blazing fire.....if a fire was blazing the zombies would walk around the fire to attack, right?

So it depends on how ''mindless'' things are....

I actually got it wrong, he was making a box around of the zombie, not around its head. So that probably works right? So I have to decide what mindless is in my campaign? They act on pure instinct wouldn't it be pure instinct to try to come out of the box?

[Segev]

When you think "mindless," think "automaton." They CAN make certain kinds of rudimentary decisions, mostly in the service of faithfully carrying out the generally-easily-understood intent behind the orders they're given.

They're slightly better than a computer in that, unless you explicitly told them to walk that exact path, they'll go around walls in order to get to a goal, but they're not inference engines or massive calculators (on their own), and so can't do anything that might require an Int check to reason out.

The more complex and less straight-forward orders are, the more likely a mindless thing is to screw up by doing exactly what it was told or by being unable to figure out the nuances of the situation to apply its orders correctly.

They'll probably try to avoid the "fire" you've cast between them and you when they move to obey the "kill you" order they've been given. If ordered to "keep watch," they'll likely attempt to remove those boxes that obscure their sight. Violently, if necessary.

But too much specificity, and the risk is that they won't be able to parse a course of meaningful action, and thus won't do anything. They have no minds with which to reason; they just obey orders and a few rudimentary "act as expected more than as told" layers of behavior to make them not computers.

[Wacky89]

is this a fair conclusion:

If the zombies have a kill command they will use their senses to attack. Since they are now boxed in, but they can still hear them. They will try and break the wall in front of them. After their first attack they will get a disbelief check because they interacted with the illusion. If they fail this check they will keep attacking the wall. This is what I think a mindless zombie with a kill command would do. Please tell me if I'm waaay of.

[Wacky89]

bump it to the top

[supermonkeyjoe]

When I run zombies in a campaign they are usually incredibly stupid and can only act on basic stimulus.

Unless commanded otherwise they will move in a mostly straight line towards the nearest living thing and attack it until dead, then look around for another living thing. If they perceive a silent image of a person they will move towards it and attack it, if they can't hit it they will generally stand there and do nothing or move onto the next nearest living thing if one exists. If a zombie can't see a creature it may be able to hear it and will move to investigate sources of sound. A illusionary box around a zombie would work perfectly so long as everyone was being quiet.

[Wacky89]

When I run zombies in a campaign they are usually incredibly stupid and can only act on basic stimulus.

Unless commanded otherwise they will move in a mostly straight line towards the nearest living thing and attack it until dead, then look around for another living thing. If they perceive a silent image of a person they will move towards it and attack it, if they can't hit it they will generally stand there and do nothing or move onto the next nearest living thing if one exists. If a zombie can't see a creature it may be able to hear it and will move to investigate sources of sound. A illusionary box around a zombie would work perfectly so long as everyone was being quiet.

That sounds reasonable to me at least

[Urpriest]

My rule of thumb is to ask what would happen if the illusion was real. If the zombie really was suddenly in a dark box with no enemies in sight, what would it do?

[illyahr]

is this a fair conclusion:

If the zombies have a kill command they will use their senses to attack. Since they are now boxed in, but they can still hear them. They will try and break the wall in front of them. After their first attack they will get a disbelief check because they interacted with the illusion. If they fail this check they will keep attacking the wall. This is what I think a mindless zombie with a kill command would do. Please tell me if I'm waaay of.

This is pretty sound reasoning. It differs depending on interpretation of the DM, but this is an interpretation that fulfills what is stated.

[jedipotter]

is this a fair conclusion:

If the zombies have a kill command they will use their senses to attack. Since they are now boxed in, but they can still hear them. They will try and break the wall in front of them. After their first attack they will get a disbelief check because they interacted with the illusion. If they fail this check they will keep attacking the wall. This is what I think a mindless zombie with a kill command would do. Please tell me if I'm waaay of.

That is not how I would rule it. I'd say that mindless creatures don't get a belief save at all. You can create a wood box around a zombie, the same way you could create illusionary smoke around it. But the wood box would have little effect. The zombie would just keep moving, and not even know it had gone right through an illusion. A zombie would walk around an illusion of a wall, but if the 'wall' was between them and prey they would just walk into/through it.

[Urpriest]

That is not how I would rule it. I'd say that mindless creatures don't get a belief save at all. You can create a wood box around a zombie, the same way you could create illusionary smoke around it. But the wood box would have little effect. The zombie would just keep moving, and not even know it had gone right through an illusion. A zombie would walk around an illusion of a wall, but if the 'wall' was between them and prey they would just walk into/through it.

Here's the problem, though: do they do that with the walls of the dungeon too? If a zombie smells you in another room, is it going to try to go through the wall or look for a way around?

The answer to that is not fixed! It depends on the specific orders given to the particular zombie.

[ace rooster]

First off, note that you can not cast silent image on a creature or an object. So you can't make a box over the head of a zombie, or any other creature. Silent image is a figment and only glamors can change the appearance of a creature.


Anything with no mind, gets no will save to disbelieve an illusion: a mindless creature thinks all illusions are real. But then you have to decide ''how mindless is mindless'' and ''how do mindless things see reality''. After all, mindless creatures are not truly ''mindless''. They can follow orders, for example. And a mindless zombie would not just walk into a wall and then stay there forever and just keep walking into the wall. A ''mindless'' zombie can walk across a bridge and won't just walk over a cliff. A ''mindless'' zombie won't just walk into a blazing fire.....if a fire was blazing the zombies would walk around the fire to attack, right?

So it depends on how ''mindless'' things are....

Mindless is defined as creatures that lack an intelligence score, hence cannot think, learn or remember. They follow preset programming, which may include some capacity to follow orders. This programming defines how they react to the world, but it is entirely independent of how they percieve it. This is cued off wisdom, which mindless creatures still possess. A mindless creature is at no penalty with regard to saves, or any wisdom check, which percieving that an illusion that appears in front of you might be an illusion would be. They do not get a bonus for the illusion being inplausable, and do not have any memory to notice a change in layout that they did not directly observe, but they can be programmed to try an active spot check if something randomly appears.

Mindless creatures with a wisdom score sees the world in exactly the same way as other creatures (But have limited ability to respond). Anything with no wisdom score is an object, and as such auto passes all will saves to disbelieve. Nothing will auto-fail will saves to disbelieve.

With regard to the box, I would give them a save every round. The thinking being that they will make active spot checks every round if they have nothing better to do (which a zombie in a box would not). If there was something holding their attention then they would not get saves, but mindless creatures do not get bored of looking at walls.

[Telonius]

I'm pretty sure an unattended zombie would be capable of breaking down a door to get to the commoner huddling in the corner. Breaking through a barrier (particularly a wooden one) would be something it would try to do.

[caden_varn]

I agree with Urpriest here - the main thing is, unless a creature makes its' will save to disbelieve, it should deal with the illusory obstacle in exactly the same way as a real one. If it will try to walk through an illusory wall, it will try to do the same to a real one. Now, maybe the real wall will block it, so it has to try to claw through, or walk alongside constantly trying to walk through until it finds a corridor or whatever, whereas the illusory one yields straight away, sure. But if it walks straight through an illusory wall, but carefully walks round a real one, that is not a terribly reasonable or realistic call for me.

I think the main test for me would be: Would the zombie react differently to me casting a silent image of a wall in front of it than to me casting a wall of stone in the same place? If it reacts differently, I would be unhappy as a player.

Also, if a wall has appeared between the zombie and its prey, how does it continue to sense the prey? They still rely on vison AFAIK (darkvision I think?)

[Kantolin]

The thinking being that they will make active spot checks every round if they have nothing better to do (which a zombie in a box would not).

The illusion doesn't change until the spell effect is over (in fact, most of them /can't/), so staring at it longer wouldn't result in any changes or anything to imply it is an illusion.

And people, be careful what you suggest. If putting an illusion of a stone wall wouldn't even cause a zombie to go around it, then that means you can solve a zombie for hours with a wall of stone spell (or a wall of force spell... or just being behind an actual wall). Or, as was suggested earlier in the topic, making actual lava will apparently have some of these zombies just pitch themselves to their deaths over and over again. :P

I think Urpriest had the best idea - they react to an illusion the same way they'd react if it was real. So if they /would/ punch down wooden walls then sure, but if they would punch down stone walls then we have problems: Would they punch down a wall of stone?

If the command is 'Punch any wall you see once and go through it if it's not real', then does this mean they'd punch a wall of fire? How about an illusion of a wall of fire? How about an illusion of a wall that covers up an actual wall?

Really - if you make a pit or an illusion of a pit, a mindless creature will go around it. If the mindless creature is trapped in the pit, it'll stand there doing nothing since it can't get out. If you put a mindless creature in a box, the mindless creature will probably just stand there. Especially if the inside of the box looks like there isn't a box (Go go profession(artist)!)

[ace rooster]

The illusion doesn't change until the spell effect is over (in fact, most of them /can't/), so staring at it longer wouldn't result in any changes or anything to imply it is an illusion.


The illusion does not need to change, just be interacted with. An active spot check counts as an interaction. Whether an illusion has anything to imply it is an illusion or not is only relevant as far as giving a bonus to save, counting as proof that something is an illusion (hence auto-pass), or drawing an interaction.

Most intelligent creatures will not keep staring at a wall if they think it is real so will not get more saves, but an mindless creature will just keep staring (It is not entirely clear if this gives you more saves, but there is no reason to think whether the illusion is changing or not affects whether you get more saves).

[Kantolin]

I could accept (Or well, tolerate) that looking at it would let you realize it's not real, except that the 'mindless' and 'realize' steps are contradictory. Thus, that seems like a curious call.

Edit: I suppose, that said, that /is/ a call a DM could make. Still, 'mindless creatures will see through illusions after staring at them for a little bit' is something that I'd sure hope was explained beforehand by the DM. I usually DM myself (especially lately), so I wouldn't rule that way - but it is the DM's perogative. :P Just make sure this is made clear beforehand, heh.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think Urpriest had the best idea - they react to an illusion the same way they'd react if it was real. So if they /would/ punch down wooden walls then sure, but if they would punch down stone walls then we have problems: Would they punch down a wall of stone?

If the command is 'Punch any wall you see once and go through it if it's not real', then does this mean they'd punch a wall of fire? How about an illusion of a wall of fire? How about an illusion of a wall that covers up an actual wall?

I think it really depends on the command. If the zombie is commanded to pursue any creature that it sees, and the wizard or whatever appears to or actually phases through the stone wall, and there is no other means to pursue it, the zombie will probably try to punch through the wall. The main thing to consider is that zombies don't really have a sense of self for the self-preservation to work on. There is no "unacceptable order" for the zombie, to borrow an Exalted term. If completing the command means they have to wade through lava, I'd tend to think the zombie wades right in.

In short, it's very difficult, as an illusionist, to be absolutely certain that your illusion will work on a given mindless undead, because it isn't really the undead you are trying to trick. The mindless undead can't be "tricked," as it runs on its programming without fail and without consideration of mitigating circumstances. Unless the illusionist knows what they are commanded to do, it may well be that mindless undead are less predictable than actual people. And once the illusionist knows the command, tricking the mindless undead is trivial.

[Kantolin]

I think it really depends on the command. If the zombie is commanded to pursue any creature that it sees, and the wizard or whatever appears to or actually phases through the stone wall, and there is no other means to pursue it, the zombie will probably try to punch through the wall.

Oh, I could see that - but uh... that makes mindless undead alarmingly easy to deal with via, well. Actually melding with stone. :P

It also means that if you leave that zombie alone they'll be constantly punching at stones, which is also easier to deal with. I dunno - I usually don't want my zombies punching walls pointlessly, it wrecks their feel. :P

Still, this also in fact could happen. Most of the time as a DM, though, I adjucate orders given on the spot (I mean, there's a lot to /do/ as a DM!), so it's most likely to presume that the standard procedure isn't 'Punch through walls'.

Especially since that begins to feel more and more like 'Oh, of course the bad guy knew this extremely precise situation would happen and specifically coded the zombie around it'.

(Although now that I say that - having that happen in a game where up until then undead worked could be an interesting clue about things changing. Say, someone seeing the future and reacting accordingly. Still, that is definitely the exception and not the rule)

[Urpriest]

It's really down to aesthetics. Some zombies are in "inexorable killer" mode, and much like horror movie zombies will try to claw their way out of a sealed room until their hands are worn down to stumps. Some are more "stoic guardians", who will only pursue those they can see and otherwise stand stock still, awaiting orders. It really depends on the style of the necromancer involved and the commands given.

[ace rooster]

I could accept (Or well, tolerate) that looking at it would let you realize it's not real, except that the 'mindless' and 'realize' steps are contradictory. Thus, that seems like a curious call.

Edit: I suppose, that said, that /is/ a call a DM could make. Still, 'mindless creatures will see through illusions after staring at them for a little bit' is something that I'd sure hope was explained beforehand by the DM. I usually DM myself (especially lately), so I wouldn't rule that way - but it is the DM's perogative. :P Just make sure this is made clear beforehand, heh.

It is not a case of realising, as I agree that implies using your intelligence to see through it, but more like a RL optical illusion where staring at it is often all there is to it, and once you see through it it is obvious (using your wisdom score to see through it, more likely given that wisdom is the score that the save depends on). Knowing how to do them helps, but only to a point. The point about putting a creature in an illusionary box was that it gives the creature no options other than interacting with the illusion. That sort of illusion is going to be quickly defeated by most opponents. Intelligent ones because they will be smart enough to realise it is not real, and mindless ones because they are too dumb to do anything other than examine their surroundings.

[Kantolin]

but more like a RL optical illusion where staring at it is often all there is to it, and once you see through it it is obvious

Staring at it would not reveal anything special. There is no hidden method of crossing your eyes and noting an illusion - an illusion totally portrays what it portrays. An intelligent creature staring at an illusion also wouldn't see through it, an unintelligent creature wouldn't see through it. An intelligent person could reason, though. Experiment, safely or not. If a box appeared around me I'd probably eventually touch it through merit of panic if nothing else. :P

If a vat of lava was surrounding a person, I could see them throwing something into it. I could also see them 'Okay it'd take crazy powerful magic to solve that, let me presume it's an illusion' in which you start mixing illusions with real things and they'll walk into them, which is okay since they'll walk into them /once/ and then react negatively.

If you inform your undead 'Walk through blade barriers', then undead become very easy for the other side to deal with. :P Which... can be okay, mind you, but I don't want 'Oh another zombie. I make a single 5ft square of lava and snicker'.

(This is an exaggeration, but hey)

[Phelix-Mu]

One thing that zombies probably aren't good at is dealing with contradictory sensory input. Like the situation on an island of ground surrounded by lava, a purely visual illusion. The normal person probably thinks "wow, this lava really should be hot...that's strange," and can act on those doubts. The zombie also may see the lava, but a lack of thermal element doesn't strike it as strange, as it has no expectation about the logical way for things to be.

But, this rabbit hole goes even deeper, and this has even been alluded to. Suppose the above situation, but in a world where lava really is rare (not that it isn't rare in most worlds, but for clarity, it is rare). Can the zombie even infer "walking in that would be dangerous" if presented with lava? I'm inclined to think that a zombie can only stop self-destructive actions once they start to injure it, since it doesn't automatically have the association "hot=dangerous" or really any other context for knowing that a given action is dangerous. In this setup, even a normal person might be fooled by the purely visual illusion, since they don't really know about lava either (though fiery-looking stuff should still probably ping as "should be hot," but the person is definitely more likely to just be confused as to what it is...which will likely lead to interaction).

Likewise, let's say the zombie will attempt to beat a hole in any obstacle to pursuing a quarry, as per some form of command to that effect. Some barriers will likely damage the zombie given time (though not really by RAW, I suppose), but the zombie will likely make progress, even on stone. But, can the zombie ever know when the amount of damage sustained over time is going to be too much for it to complete it's command? Does it know that no amount of hammering on an adamantine wall will ever bring it down?

In all of these cases, I am inclined to think "no, the zombie doesn't know that." Is it impossible for some of this information to be included in a set of instructions given to a zombie? That is substantially less clear, but I am inclined to think that a mindless creature has really got to be the least intelligent in behavior of all creatures imaginable, as nothing can be less intelligent.