Sorcerer Spell Choice

[andreww]

Hello everyone,

I have a level 9 sorcerer played in PFS who needs some advice on which fourth level spell to pick with New Arcana. He is a half elf of the Sage Bloodline with a specialism in battlefield control His only relevant feats at the moment are SF/GSF: Conjuration and Persistent Spell. His current spell list includes:

Level 1: Charm Person, Grease, Identify (b), Liberating Command, Mage Armour, Magic Missile, Silent Image, Protection from Evil

Level 2: Command Undead, Create Pit, Resist Energy, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Invisibility (b), Pilfering Hand

Level 3: Aqueous Orb, Daylight, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Haste, Stinking Cloud, Suggestion, Paragon Surge

Level 4: Dimension Door (b), Elemental Body I, Emergency Force Sphere

I am a bit torn as to what to take for his level 4 spell. Some things to note:

Obviously I have a focus on battlefield control but I currently have a lot of it. Create Pit, Stinking Cloud and Aqueous Orb between them provide a lot of coverage. I dont need much in the way of utility or divination as I grab what I need when I need it with Paragon Surge and PFS often doesnt give you much chance for stealth or infiltration. Spells I am considering include:

Charm Monster: Decent but I already have Suggestion. Would make more sense as it doesnt have the language dependant element. May not work well with other party memebrs attacking charmed opponents.

Confusion: Very powerful control but requires party members to be careful about what they do. Could slow the table down with randomness.

Fear: A bit like Confusion but less chance of making things take forever. Does require you to be much more up close and personal. Very tempting.

Greater Invisibility: An incredibly powerful buff but would leave me with nothing but buff, defence and utility at level 4. I sort of feel that I should have an offensive spell at that level although persistent create pit fits in there as well. I have magical lineage for glitterdust using my 3rd levels slots.

Summon Monster IV: An OK choice but the list at this level is a little anemic. I tend to avoid summons as a sorcerer as I cannot reduce the cast time. I consider this more a utility spell than anything else.

Black Tentacles: Powerful area control at this level but could cause more problems than it solves, especially at a large table with lots of players.

Wall of Fire: I know it is subpar but I love wall of fire. I love dropping them on people trapped in pits or hitting undead for double damage with no save.

Acid Pit: Superb for killing golems but I already have the orb and create pit for managing them. It's deeper than the base spell so will take heavily armoured slower foes out of the fight for longer.

So, what would people suggest? Are there any spells I have overlooked as options at this level?

[Spore]

Enervation? It's a no save hefty debuff on a single target. I know you want a bit of control on the level but you will have to start up having spells to decrease the defenses of a major enemy.

[avr]

Telekinetic Charge to put the BSF where they're needed? A different sort of battlefield control.

Otherwise I'd get Greater Invisibility.

[SalterisSolaris]

Actually, 4th level is a real treasure trove for Sorcerers... it's the one where I always struggle to have enough spells-known.

Wings of Flurry
(Blasty and Reflex 1/2, but still the best you can find of this type. Uncapped, no-friendly-fire, force damage. Plus daze.)
Celerity
(Act when you want it, your turn or not.)
Black Tentacles
(One of the finest battlefield control spells, and a near-guaranteed shutdown for most other casters)
Greater Invisibility
(The rogue will love you... but even you yourself have some use for a constant 50%-miss-chance-defense)
Resilient Sphere
(Save yourself, trap foes, save friends, protect the fallen, save the drowning... great way to say "no" to a lot of stuff)
Orb of Whatever
(Essential if you want to go true-striking metamagic ranged damage-dealer now and then. Otherwise skip.)
Enervation
(One of the most impressive no-save debuffs ever. The DM will probably hate you for the ensuing mathematics though)
Assay Resistance
(Useful later on when SR becomes a problem. And magnitudes cheaper than trying to do it via feats.)
Ruin Delvers Fortune
(Get an immediate +4 on a save of your choice. Situational but lifesaving.)
Voice of the Dragon
(Not for combat, but +10 on Intimidate/Diplomacy/Bluff is nice. And the Suggestion spell rolled into it is even nicer if you want to drop Enchantment at some later point.)

[andreww]

Enervation? It's a no save hefty debuff on a single target. I know you want a bit of control on the level but you will have to start up having spells to decrease the defenses of a major enemy.
Enervation is OK but the debuff is relatively small and with enough ways to target different saves and persistent spell it doesn't feel very necessary. If split ray etc existed in PF then I would strongly consider it but otherwise it doesnt look like a great choice.

@SalterisSolaris: Most of those are 3.5 spells and therefore not PFS legal sadly or I would certainly be taking them. Resilient Sphere is tempting as an offensive reflex targeting spell. The defensive elements are dealt with far more effectively by emerrgency force sphere.

@avr@ Telekinetic Charge is one I looked at but is it really much better than Dimension Door? I can do much the same thing with DDoor and for multiple people at once. Sure they dont get the bonus attack and you place yourself near the danger but it feels like overlap which is something I want to avoid on a sorcerer.

[13ones]

You know what I'd suggest for you, since you are heavily favouring conjuration? Summon Monster IV. I've been tinkering with a little one-two combo with summon monster and since it is battle field control it goes with your character.

The combo itself is casting any summon monster spell, which takes a round for the creature to appear. Then on the next round when the creature appears cast either Silent or Minor Image in order to create the appearance of another summoned creature to add to the mix. You've effectively given the encounter two-four new targets to try to deal with.

"But if the image gets interacted with and dispelled..." So? They wasted an action fighting a 1-st level illusion spell instead of you, your party, or your summons so it was 150% worth.

[ericgrau]

The illusion may only take a 1st level slot but it still took a full turn and the tactic took 2 full turns. You've just blown most of the fight on a mere diversion. At least wait until you get quicken to quicken silent image.

I'll say greater invis if you often have a party rogue. You can target others too, but this would cinch it. Otherwise resilient sphere or wall of ice for some more selective control.

Resilient sphere is single target that hits the lowest average save, SR no and foes are rarely immune. Great against smaller groups that your other BFC doesn't work on. Wall of ice is good for lone foes or groups for a no save, no SR BFC that doesn't hit allies. Plus its shapeability Though you may want to hold out for wall of force instead. Even with emergency force sphere there's little overlap with resilient sphere since the slower resilient sphere is only rarely used defensively. Plus resilient sphere can rescue allies if you do get desperate enough to blow your whole turn on defense.

I do agree more area stuff could become a problem in a party. And enchantments & fear do tend to be unreliable in combat and immunity & SR prone. You're going to start hitting a lot of SR. If you get charm monster then you need to save the monster to re-use for multiple combats; not to do a poor job of taking only one foe out of a fight. Ya summon monster IV is a bit weak. I'd get summon monster I for utility if anything.

[13ones]

I don't see it as a diversion but rather a different type of wall spell. Summoning on average is really powerful and honestly the idea of sending out a wall of summons and illusions all on the same turn for one 4th, and one 1st level spell is really quite impressive if you ask me.

Yes it requires two turns to take effect but they are spells that continue to be effective for multiple rounds. I like wall of ice and resilient sphere but those are stationary objects. At 9th level you'll start hitting creatures that can poof or fly around the battlefield and honestly while spheres and walls can funnel your foes, it can do the same to allies, where as illusions and summons can be positioned round after round.

Both routes have merit.

[ericgrau]

It would be nice if it was 1 turn hence quicken. 2 rounds is a very long time in D&D and there won't be much of future rounds that mean anything to the fight.

Resilient sphere doesn't block it goes around a foe and he's out of the fight whether on the ground or the air. It's a highly effective single target SoL without the many immunities and SR that other single target SoL face, plus it hits the lowest average save. In a bad pinch you can save an ally from death too.

[andreww]

It would be nice if it was 1 turn hence quicken. 2 rounds is a very long time in D&D and there won't be much of future rounds that mean anything to the fight.

Resilient sphere doesn't block it goes around a foe and he's out of the fight whether on the ground or the air. It's a highly effective single target SoL without the many immunities and SR that other single target SoL face, plus it hits the lowest average save. In a bad pinch you can save an ally from death too.
Resilient Sphere is subject to SR (at least in PF). If it wasn't it would be much higher up on my list of must haves.

[13ones]

Also with sorcerer spells you want something that can have multiple different uses. Summoning monsters, even if it isn't combined with illusions is always effective. Can add another action to your rounds. Summoned creatures attack, you cast a spell, and your familiar does something.

I'm not a huge fan of summons, but even still I pick up a couple as spell known just because of the sheer versatility of summoned creatures.

[RSSwizard]

Edit - Re Summoning.

Summon 1d4 monsters and have them placed on flanks with monsters. That way the Rogue can get kidney steaks and the fighters are less likely to miss. Thats what them celestial dire ferrets or whatever are good for. And if the enemy bothers to try to stomp on them, thats stomping they aren't doing in the direction of your party members.

At least this is what I use them for. Because of D&D mechanics you cant just step over them and walk away either, so they can and do hem you in. You've got to do an overrun or something like that to move through their space and thats a pain in the rear for anything to try.

That isnt my suggestion for a 4th level spell though (maybe a 2nd level, and a 6th level, then exchange the 2nd one out for something else later on).

====

My Favorite . . . Ruin Delver's Fortune

Not sure if they changed it in PF but in the 3.5 spell compendium it gives you a bonus equal to your relevant spellcasting ability modifier (charisma for a sorcerer). And even if its watered down its still a go-to spell because you can pull it out of your hat like Nerveskitter.

Which means any Save you need to ace, you probably can. This is how I kept my Sorcerer safe, because he was getting +9 or +10 on all his saves. Every time I had to make a different save I would cast it. I didn't even declare i was casting it, it was a given, I just rolled the save with the bonus and marked it off my spells.

And it also lasted for 1d4 rounds and added another buff Effect too.
Reflex saves also gave you Evasion (sorry mister fireball).
Fort saves gave you immunity to poison (sorry mister crossbow bolt).
Will Saves did something else (I think it was immunity to fear).

[RSSwizard]

Sorry for the double post but id also like to add . . . summoning works real good on its own if you can spam it.

A metamagic rod of quicken comes in handy here, even the cheap one, then its 2d4 critters per round for 3 rounds.

Nothing like having to contend with 20 house cats. How many attacks do you get again? Oh here's some more cats for you.

(reminds me of a certain stephen king movie from 1993)

Obviously you don't use this tactic against anything with AOE but yeah, thats also when you might want to toss in the Ball Of Fire that sits in place and burns them up because they cant move in the sea of house cats.

[13ones]

Ruin Delver's Fortune is not a spell in pathfinder.

[ericgrau]

Resilient Sphere is subject to SR (at least in PF). If it wasn't it would be much higher up on my list of must haves.
Bwah? And a lower duration too. But... it doesn't even touch the foe with SR. Dam nonsensical PF nerfs.

Ok, I'm going to say wall of ice or greater invis then. Wall of ice is destructible but it has no save as long as you don't place it adjacent to a foe. Nor SR in the same scenario so worst case scenario you trade actions. Best case you delay multiple foes or trade actions with something stronger than you like a BBEG. I think the SR is for the damage. Now if foes can negate this spell from 15' away with SR, my head is going to asplode.

1 summon is already super weak and nearly ignorable. If you divide the already low power with multiple weaker summons foes might start going around them or overrunning them. Even without improved ovverrun if a foe can't even hit you with the attack of opportunity and your check is way higher than anything it can roll, what do you care? Likewise foes don't have to worry about provoking in general. The casting time also makes it hard to make an interposing barrier when foes have plenty of time to get to melee. With a feat for faster summoning it may be better.

[13ones]

Wall of Ice

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect anchored plane of ice, up to one 10-ft. square/level, or hemisphere of ice with a radius of up to 3 ft. + 1 ft./level
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Reflex negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes

This spell creates an anchored plane of ice or a hemisphere of ice, depending on the version selected. A wall of ice cannot form in an area occupied by physical objects or creatures. Its surface must be smooth and unbroken when created. Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed. A successful save indicates that the spell automatically fails. Fire can melt a wall of ice, and it deals full damage to the wall (instead of the normal half damage taken by objects). Suddenly melting a wall of ice creates a great cloud of steamy fog that lasts for 10 minutes.

Ice Plane: A sheet of strong, hard ice appears. The wall is 1 inch thick per caster level. It covers up to a 10-foot-square area per caster level (so a 10th-level wizard can create a wall of ice 100 feet long and 10 feet high, a wall 50 feet long and 20 feet high, or any other combination of length and height that does not exceed 1,000 square feet). The plane can be oriented in any fashion as long as it is anchored. A vertical wall need only be anchored on the floor, while a horizontal or slanting wall must be anchored on two opposite sides.

Each 10-foot square of wall has 3 hit points per inch of thickness. Creatures can hit the wall automatically. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 15 + caster level.

Even when the ice has been broken through, a sheet of frigid air remains. Any creature stepping through it (including the one who broke through the wall) takes 1d6 points of cold damage + 1 point per caster level (no save).

Hemisphere: The wall takes the form of a hemisphere whose maximum radius is 3 feet + 1 foot per caster level. The hemisphere is as hard to break through as the ice plane form, but it does not deal damage to those who go through a breach.




In short. Summon a monster.

[Keldrin]

So question. Do most DMs not allow,3.5 stuff when PF was supposed to be compatible? Seems like my group is pretty laid back about Mix'n'match.

[Talya]

My Favorite . . . Ruin Delver's Fortune

Not sure if they changed it in PF but in the 3.5 spell compendium it gives you a bonus equal to your relevant spellcasting ability modifier (charisma for a sorcerer). And even if its watered down its still a go-to spell because you can pull it out of your hat like Nerveskitter.



Just a couple notes:
-As has been mentioned, this is a PF game, RDF doesn't exist.
-RDF is my favorite sorcerer spell in 3.5, but it does NOT give you a bonus based on your "relevant spellcasting ability modifier." It is always based solely on charisma. That means it's great for sorcerers, good for bards, and lousy for wizards.
-It uses up your swift action for the round, so it's not a guarantee. If you get targeted with both a reflex-based spell and a fortitude save in the same round, you can only use it on one of them. Then on your next turn, you can't use goodies like Assay Spell Resistance, as you already used your swift action.

To the OP:

You're a half-elf with paragon surge. That's great, it also makes you incredibly versatile. That also means every spell you pick as a "known spell" should be a combat spell that you will cast a LOT. Anything else that you ever need you can have access to with an extra six seconds of lead time. So pick your spells entirely based on the two criteria "Will action economy be important when I cast this? How much will I cast this?"

An additional criterion - Paragon Surge is often used to grab metamagic feats on demand. You cannot grab Expanded Arcana and an extra metamagic feat at the same time. So if you really want to extend a spell, and you have neither extend spell on your feat list nor the spell you want to extend on your spells known list, you cannot extend it. Keep this in mind as well. A great use for paragon surge is to extend hour long/level buffs to last an entire day. You'll need to either know the spell, or know the feat to do this.