What can you do with psionics without psionic classes?

[Tantum Umbra]

Assuming you are a non-psionic race. You can take the wild talent.. and make use of Psionic Focus. Which in turn can be expended for psionic weapon and psionic shot and their greater variants.

What else?

[Juntao112]

Speed of Thought

[Forrestfire]

There is also Hidden Talent if the DM allows it, letting you use a power. There is also a plethora of useful items out there.

One neat trick is Hidden talent + 20 Power Link Shards UMD'd for racial emulation lets you toss off stuff like 41d6 energy rays, or a +24 armor bonus for an hour or so, or get 255 temporary hit points for a minute. Costs a feat, 60k gold, and 20 permanent hit points, but it could still be neat to have.

[BornValyrian]

You can run up walls with... Up the walls.
Definitely the coolest psionic feat ever.

[Muggins]

In regards to psionics, (Illithid) Slayer, Fist of Zuoken, Pyrokineticist, War Mind, Ebon Saint, Zerth Cenobite and Psibond Agent only care about whether you have a power point reserve (rather than the ability to manifest powers). Some of them possess or grant manifesting, but some of them (like the Slayer) can still be pretty good.

[Chronos]

Psionic focus can be useful all by itself, if you have some way of making use of Concentration checks. Diamond Mind maneuvers from Tome of Battle, for instance.

Being psionic is a prerequisite for using psionic soulmelds, such as Astral Vambraces. You can pick them up with a feat (or two, if you want to bind them).

[Feint's End]

There is also Hidden Talent if the DM allows it, letting you use a power. There is also a plethora of useful items out there.

One neat trick is Hidden talent + 20 Power Link Shards UMD'd for racial emulation lets you toss off stuff like 41d6 energy rays, or a +24 armor bonus for an hour or so, or get 255 temporary hit points for a minute. Costs a feat, 60k gold, and 20 permanent hit points, but it could still be neat to have.

The trick doesn't work because you need actual Manifesterlevels and Hidden Talent doesn't give you any. It just lets you manifest one Power as if you had a ML of 1. That's it
"Shards do not use up a body slot, but a character can only have one embedded shard for every manifester level that he possesses"


Otherwise I second Hidden Talent (which is a strict upgrade from Wild Talent). There are some really great powers like Minor Creation or Dimensionhop (swift action teleport anybody?). Afterwards you can start using feats like Up the Walls or Speed of Thought for some nice added mobility or instead get stuff like Psionic Weapon.

Psionic Shot is a nice way to increase the damage of eldritch blast as a warlock. It's quite the featinvestion but with hidden talent, psionic shot, greater psionic shot and psionic meditation you can use your move action to focus and increase your blastdamage by 4d6 (1d6 a feat ... not too shaby).

[Red Fel]

Being psionic is a prerequisite for using psionic soulmelds, such as Astral Vambraces. You can pick them up with a feat (or two, if you want to bind them).

Wait, what? This is news to me.

Admittedly, the ones that explicitly call out powers (Charming Veil, Psychic Focus) basically offer no benefit to people without powers. But I don't see anything in the article introducing them (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) that requires psionics as a prerequisite. (Contrast that with Draconic soulmelds (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4), which state explicitly that "Only characters of the dragonblood subtype can shape a soulmeld with the draconic descriptor.")

[Forrestfire]

The trick doesn't work because you need actual Manifesterlevels and Hidden Talent doesn't give you any. It just lets you manifest one Power as if you had a ML of 1. That's it
"Shards do not use up a body slot, but a character can only have one embedded shard for every manifester level that he possesses"


Otherwise I second Hidden Talent (which is a strict upgrade from Wild Talent). There are some really great powers like Minor Creation or Dimensionhop (swift action teleport anybody?). Afterwards you can start using feats like Up the Walls or Speed of Thought for some nice added mobility or instead get stuff like Psionic Weapon.

Psionic Shot is a nice way to increase the damage of eldritch blast as a warlock. It's quite the featinvestion but with hidden talent, psionic shot, greater psionic shot and psionic meditation you can use your move action to focus and increase your blastdamage by 4d6 (1d6 a feat ... not too shaby).

I coulda sworn it was one per hit die. My apologies, totally misremembered.

[Vedhin]

Get 8th level powers.



Abandon all notions of RAI and RACSD, ye who enter here.


First step is acquiring a (scaling) ML and a power point reserve. The best way to accomplish this is to be a Kalashtar and take the Kalashtar Mindlink feat. You get ML equal to your HD, and power points equal to your HD. You could also take Hidden Talent and a Host feat (Complete Psionic) to get a small amount of pp and ML equal to half your HD.
Next, we invoke a rule found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#abilitiesAndManifesters). It states that "a character who manifests powers gains bonus power points according to his key ability score." So a Kalashtar gets them based on Charisma, and a Host based on whatever mental attribute you chose. Kalashtar might need Hidden Talent.

That part comes from a poster here named mabriss lethe. The next bit, getting powers known, comes from me (and works with anything that has a ML and power points).

This is founded on the wording of Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge). Contrary to popular opinion, it keys not off the highest level of power you know, but that you can manifest. Psionics' Golden Rule about not spending more power points than your ML enables the next phase of the trick. See, that rule is the only rule governing how many power points you can spend. Enter this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerPoints), correlating power point cost to level of power. With these, we can manifest powers with a cost no greater than our ML, and we know what levels we can manifest. So take Expanded Knowledge for whatever is available. If you have a persnickety DM, take a level in a manifesting class and invoke the rules for manifesting from another's powers known (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown[/url) to actually manifest a power of the highest level your ML will allow.

Voila! You are one power level behind compared to psions (if you go Kalashtar), and you are limited to 8th level powers. On the other hand, you likely have a much better chassis. Plus, you could enter a psionic theurge with only a single dip in a manifesting class.

Also, this allows for adding nice powers like hustle and psionic lion's charge to a mundane character. If you know the power, you can use dorjes of it, getting around the low quantity of power points.

[Muggins]

That's an intriguing proposition Vedhin, although you lose me a few times. Mainly because psi-like abilities =/= powers, much in the same way that spell-like abilities =/= powers.

It was, incidentally, discussed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189698-Confusing-question-regarding-psionics). Even if you do qualify for Expanded Knowledge through the manifester level of your psi-like ability, Mindlink is still a level 1 power. Expanded Knowledge lets you select a power one level less than the highest level power you can manifest (in this case, Mindlink).

[Vedhin]

That's an intriguing proposition Vedhin, although you lose me a few times. Mainly because psi-like abilities =/= powers, much in the same way that spell-like abilities =/= powers.

They don't need to equal in this case. Psi-like abilities give a manifester level, just like spell-like abilities give a caster level. The powers are then derived from the manifester level.



It was, incidentally, discussed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189698-Confusing-question-regarding-psionics). Even if you do qualify for Expanded Knowledge through the manifester level of your psi-like ability, Mindlink is still a level 1 power. Expanded Knowledge lets you select a power one level less than the highest level power you can manifest (in this case, Mindlink).

As mentioned in that other thread, the feat doesn't actually say you need to know the power, just that you can manifest it.

If you want, Complete Psionic has rules on page 105 for manifesting a power from a power stone. Use those, and you can prove your ability to manifest a power.

[Rubik]

Well, psionic powers explicitly are psi-likes, for what it's worth.

[T.G. Oskar]

If you're a Martial Adept or somehow has Insightful Strike as a maneuver? Well, you can max Concentration and expend your psionic focus to "take 15" on the "damage roll", dealing your Constitution bonus +15 points worth of damage (or double that with Greater Insightful Strike). Also works with most Diamond Mind maneuvers such as Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Mind over Matter and the Nightmare Blade line.

Wild Talent grants a power point pool, which you can spend on Deep Crystal weaponry to add an extra 2d6 damage by charging it. Add (Greater) Psionic Weapon to it, and you ensure about 4d6/6d6 damage on a single hit, which is fairly good for when the going gets rough (though you lose the ability to expend your psionic focus afterwards).

If you use Incarnum, you have access to the "Midnight" series of feats. There's one, IIRC, that allows you to expend your psionic focus to treat one soulmeld or feat as if its essentia capacity was fully charged for 1 round. That's also a major boost.

Also: never underestimate Wounding Attack. Spending your psionic focus for 1 point of Constitution damage may seem little, but it can reduce your opponent's Fortitude saves by 1 and deal additional damage equal to the target's HP, which is never bad. Aligned Attack deals extra damage and pierces some DR, and Ghost Attack allows you to take the better of two rolls when using a magic weapon, and those are feats you have easy access to.

Agree, though, on using Hidden Talent rather than Wild Talent. The 1st level power may not seem like much, but it's extremely useful, particularly if you choose Expansion and have a way to boost its effect.

[Coidzor]

Taking Hidden Talent for Psionic Minor Creation can take care of any and all of your poison needs.


Well, psionic powers explicitly are psi-likes, for what it's worth.

Yeah, I always found that rather weird myself. :smallconfused:

[Vaz]

Poison is arguable. It is one of those broke things CharOp posoted as an idea, but doesn't really hold up in game. Many poisons need to be created. Black Lotus Extract is possibly the exception as it is purely plant bassd by its description, but others need to be crafted.

However Psi Minor Creation can be used for all sorts. Rope? Gotcha. Ladders? Yup. Barricade? Oh yeah. Food? Absolutely.

I've used it while one of my characters was in prison to feed himself and the rest of the prisoners who shared his cell, getting them strong enough to begin a rebellion. Do you know how many berries you get in 2 cubic foot? It is a heck of a lot.

Tindertwigs as well. You're sorted for all low level adventuring. Struggling to keep warm, a moss blanket provides at least some comfort and protection against the elements.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Not sure, but with psionics/magic transparency, would sanctum spell change the effective level of a power?

[Chronos]

Poison is arguable. It is one of those broke things CharOp posoted as an idea, but doesn't really hold up in game. Many poisons need to be created. Black Lotus Extract is possibly the exception as it is purely plant bassd by its description, but others need to be crafted.
Well, sure, but if Black Lotus Extract is an option, why would you even need any other sort of poison?

And it's worth pointing out that Hidden Talent usually is not better than Wild Talent, because Hidden Talent usually doesn't even exist. It's an optional rule that the DM can choose to use, but it isn't available by default.

[Psyren]

The XPH contains a number of useful feats for non-manifesters. Hidden Talent and Up the Walls were already mentioned; I'll add to that Stand Still, Open Minded, Deadly Precision, Speed of Thought and Greater Manyshot (for sneak attackers/skirmishers). Invest Armor from CPsi is handy too (though poorly written) if you have a psionic focus.

[Doc_Maynot]

Not sure, but with psionics/magic transparency, would sanctum spell change the effective level of a power?

No, you cannot add metamagic to powers. Because transparency doesn't work that way. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psionicsMagicTransparenc y)

[Rubik]

No, you cannot add metamagic to powers. Because transparency doesn't work that way. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psionicsMagicTransparenc y)Metamagic feats are easily translatable, however, and the Mind Mage PrC from Dragon #313 allows you to translate them over. With the Magic Mantle from CPsi, you gain super-transparency, which actually does allow you to use metamagic feats if there's a way to translate slots to power points. Which is why I mentioned Mind Mage.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Metamagic feats are easily translatable, however, and the Mind Mage PrC from Dragon #313 allows you to translate them over. With the Magic Mantle from CPsi, you gain super-transparency, which actually does allow you to use metamagic feats if there's a way to translate slots to power points. Which is why I mentioned Mind Mage.

The reason I asked was because I wasn't sure if a wizard 1 with precocious apprentice, hidden talent, and sanctum spell would qualify for the "ability to cast 3rd level spells and manifest 2nd level powers" bit of the pre-requisites for Mind Mage.

[Rubik]

The reason I asked was because I wasn't sure if a wizard 1 with precocious apprentice, hidden talent, and sanctum spell would qualify for the "ability to cast 3rd level spells and manifest 2nd level powers" bit of the pre-requisites for Mind Mage.Hidden Talent doesn't work for qualifications.

And you want levels in psion/ardent/whatever anyway, so you can gain the benefits to your manifesting class.

How about wizard 2/ardent 1 with Precocious Apprentice, Sanctum Spell and Practiced Manifester? You qualify on both counts, so long as you're in your sanctum and choose a 2nd level power with your level in ardent.

[Vaz]

Sanctum Spell doesn't work - it's only when it's cast is it a 2nd level spell, and you can only select 1st level powers known as an ardent.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Hidden Talent doesn't work for qualifications.


how so? mind mage requires the ability to manifest 2nd level powers, if sanctum spell changes the effective level of your hidden talent power to 2nd level, what's the problem?

[Rubik]

Sanctum Spell doesn't work - it's only when it's cast is it a 2nd level spell, and you can only select 1st level powers known as an ardent.It's a good thing that the qualification is, "must be able to cast 3rd level spells," then. Since that's exactly what Sanctum Spell allows you to do.


how so? mind mage requires the ability to manifest 2nd level powers, if sanctum spell changes the effective level of your hidden talent power to 2nd level, what's the problem?I suppose it might, since Mind Mage says nothing about manifester levels, which is what is cut off when trying to use it for qualifications.

In short, ask your DM.

I know Practiced Manifester would work for sure, though.

[Vaz]

Edit; nvm, thought it was 3rd level powers, my bad.

[Pinkie Pyro]

I suppose it might, since Mind Mage says nothing about manifester levels, which is what is cut off when trying to use it for qualifications.

In short, ask your DM.

I know Practiced Manifester would work for sure, though.

good, in that case, could you raise your manifester level to stupid levels, prepare, say, shape change as a 1st level spell, then DCFS innate spell (compete arcane version) to have it as a spell like ability at will, using a 9th level spell slot?

or scribe a scroll at a severely reduced cost?

[Rubik]

good, in that case, could you raise your manifester level to stupid levels, prepare, say, shape change as a 1st level spell, then DCFS innate spell (compete arcane version) to have it as a spell like ability at will, using a 9th level spell slot?

or scribe a scroll at a severely reduced cost?Could you explain how that works, exactly? I don't follow.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Could you explain how that works, exactly? I don't follow.

"One spell slot eight levels higher than the innate spell is permanently used to power it"

it doesn't actually say what to do if a spell is reduced below it's regular slot in any way, nor do the magic item creation feats (to my knowledge, anyway, it may have been expanded on somewhere)

but, say you have an empowered fireball spell, with easy metamagic, which makes it a 4th level spell slot, not 5th level.

you scribe a scroll, do you use the cost of a 5th level spell or a 4th level spell?

[T.G. Oskar]

And it's worth pointing out that Hidden Talent usually is not better than Wild Talent, because Hidden Talent usually doesn't even exist. It's an optional rule that the DM can choose to use, but it isn't available by default.

It's on the opposite page of Leadership, figuratively speaking.

Hidden Talent is meant for high-psionics campaigns, but on its own it really doesn't break the game: it's a 1st level power which cannot be augmented because the ML is fixed to 1st, unless you can find a way to boost it further (Overchannel, for example). Sure, some of the powers are REALLY good (Expansion, for example, or Psionic Minor Creation), but those are the exceptions. Yet, because it's tucked in a part of the XPH; much like Collegiate Wizard and Precocious Apprentice are tucked in a part of Complete Arcane, or the adaptation of the Swordsage is pretty much a footnote, it's meant to be optional and not considered.

That hasn't stopped people from considering those options, though. In a situation where nothing that's 1st party is disallowed, Hidden Talent is viable and a better option overall than Wild Talent.

On the other hand, Leadership is in the Player's Handbook and the SRD, but that doesn't mean most DMs will apply it, because that feat DOES have the potential to break the game into little pieces (particularly if you know how to work with the cohort). However, since it's on the SRD and the PHB, it's not "optional"; it's a choice that cannot be denied to the player, since it's right there, all rules added in.

It's a Catch-22: if you ban Hidden Talent because it's optional, then the argument to allow Leadership strengthens because it's not an optional feat. If you ban Leadership, then the argument of banning Hidden Talent as well becomes weaker because the DM is exercising what allows and what doesn't, so the DM could very well allow the feat if it was capable of banning one because it was "too powerful". Granted, a DM could very well ban ALL psionics AND Leadership, which breaks the fork, and so does attempting to keep the game low-psionics and banning Leadership out of principle, but that introduces a third part of the fork which ends up in the same way: if a single table could ban both, why assume ALL tables will ban both due to the same principle? Thus, the safest thing to presume is "Hidden Talent is allowed unless otherwise banned", and thus it can be discussed freely (just as you can presume Precocious Apprentice is allowed). There's also the popularity bit (a reason why the Unarmed Swordsage adaptation is often mentioned, and so does Precocious Apprentice, but not the Faith feats, for example).