Iconic Wizards

[OrlockDelesian]

Not truly optimised, yet powerfull, D&D has plenty of Iconic Spellcasters.
However Looking at their statblocks, one will notice that any high op character can take them.
How do you deal with that?
Lets say that a party meets Raistlin and prompts to attack him. By default Raistlin will tramp them, slice and dice them, but his stats are awfull when you look at them.
Do you portray encounters with those characters as Cinematic, do you re-build them or do you let the PCs have their way?

[Svata]

I would rebuild them, personally, to make them a challenge.

[Forrestfire]

If something like that happens, I rebuild them as well. WotC's character building is generally pretty terrible.

[Red Fel]

Not truly optimised, yet powerfull, D&D has plenty of Iconic Spellcasters.
However Looking at their statblocks, one will notice that any high op character can take them.
How do you deal with that?
Lets say that a party meets Raistlin and prompts to attack him. By default Raistlin will tramp them, slice and dice them, but his stats are awfull when you look at them.
Do you portray encounters with those characters as Cinematic, do you re-build them or do you let the PCs have their way?

Frankly, a high-op character can go toe-to-toe with gods as statted. Raistlin doesn't stand a chance.

As a rule, I don't like bringing in iconic franchise characters. (I've had some bad experiences with DMs who did, I'll admit.) I find that it distracts the campaign. In my campaigns, the PCs tend to be the big heroes. Introducing an iconic character invites the question, "So, if he's around, why are we out saving the world instead of this guy?" That breaks immersion, in my mind.

Even when the PCs aren't the big world-savers (or destroyers, in Evil campaigns) and are just generic good (or bad) guys, I don't want to bring in some shining paragon of power. I don't like bringing in high-power NPCs because, again, immersion-breaking. Why would anyone need the PCs for anything when there are people like Elminster around? And don't tell me "He's too busy doing Elminster things to help everyone with their needs," because if he were that busy, he wouldn't be wasting time with the PCs, either.

[Trasilor]

Frankly, a high-op character can go toe-to-toe with gods as statted. Raistlin doesn't stand a chance.

As a rule, I don't like bringing in iconic franchise characters. (I've had some bad experiences with DMs who did, I'll admit.) I find that it distracts the campaign. In my campaigns, the PCs tend to be the big heroes. Introducing an iconic character invites the question, "So, if he's around, why are we out saving the world instead of this guy?" That breaks immersion, in my mind.

Even when the PCs aren't the big world-savers (or destroyers, in Evil campaigns) and are just generic good (or bad) guys, I don't want to bring in some shining paragon of power. I don't like bringing in high-power NPCs because, again, immersion-breaking. Why would anyone need the PCs for anything when there are people like Elminster around? And don't tell me "He's too busy doing Elminster things to help everyone with their needs," because if he were that busy, he wouldn't be wasting time with the PCs, either.

Raistlin did go toe to to with a god...and won...:smallamused:

But otherwise completely agree with post.

[OrlockDelesian]

"So, if he's around, why are we out saving the world instead of this guy?"

Well Raistlin never wanted to Save the world :P

Appart from that, no, I don't speak about stealing the player's thunder, that would be Bad Dming -unless of course the NpC in question is there to provide a cinematic escape or something like that.
( I have had on ocasion NpCs "saving" the party, but only after the encounter was over, and after I told the party " You have won the Encounter, you get full XP the rest is a cinematic cut scene" and up to now I never had problem with that. )
I am talking about BAD players who find their way on the table, and want to defeat the famous NPC just for the sake of it.
Does the playground considers it cheating if the Dm says :
"You attack Raistlin. He twirles his staff in an arc infront of him and you freeze. The last thing you hear is words of magic and you see a bright flash. Game over."

Is it so bad to portray Iconic Characters the way they where meant to be?
(not by RAW, I am speaking stricly storywise)

[Red Fel]

Appart from that, no, I don't speak about stealing the player's thunder, that would be Bad Dming -unless of course the NpC in question is there to provide a cinematic escape or something like that.

The problem isn't what you intend with the character. The problem is that the character exists. Suppose, for example, you're playing in a world where M-16s are in common usage. They're not just military usage; individual cities equip their police forces with them. And the PCs are using crossbows. Why are the PCs using crossbows? Or perhaps that's a bad example. Try this. You're in a setting where individual governments have the equivalent of Seal Team 6 for special military operations, James Bond for espionage, and Sherlock Holmes for investigations. Why would anyone hire the PCs to do anything if they could hire Seal Team 6, Bond, or Holmes?

That's the problem. In a world where there are Raistlins and the like, where they wander the earth and can be encountered by mere mortals, why would anyone need the PCs for anything? "Oh, you're an adventurer, yeah?" "Sure am, got any quests for me?" "You betcha! Can you find me that Raistlin fella?"


I am talking about BAD players who find their way on the table, and want to defeat the famous NPC just for the sake of it.
Does the playground considers it cheating if the Dm says :
"You attack Raistlin. He twirles his staff in an arc infront of him and you freeze. The last thing you hear is words of magic and you see a bright flash. Game over."

Yup. That, I consider cheating.

At least give the poor fool a sporting chance. Let him roll some dice before he gets curbstomped.


Is it so bad to portray Iconic Characters the way they where meant to be?
(not by RAW, I am speaking stricly storywise)

Is it bad to portray them that way? Not inherently. The problem is integrating them into the story in such a manner that they don't automatically overshadow the PCs. And that's going to pose a serious obstacle.

In my mind, the PCs should be the protagonists, the primary actors, in their story. Not necessarily the heroes, but definitely the protagonists. Iconic characters were written as protagonists. Not just protagonists, but larger-than-life world-changing protagonists with all kinds of fate and power just dripping grotesquely from every orifice. These guys ooze destiny and narrative causality. PCs don't have that kind of writing on their side. How are they supposed to compete with that? Portraying iconic characters "the way they were meant to be" means making them the center of the story - and that means robbing the PCs of the spotlight.