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View Full Version : A new spin on deals with the devil and evil magic in general



Thoughtbot360
2007-02-17, 03:15 PM
I talked about this in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34820) which died, but thats not important <insert transition to thread topic here>.

But, I was thinking I could right a new take on the tired old idea of how diabolism and other Pacts with Evil Outsiders work: "So..you want to give me your soul and I'll give you power, but not enough power that you can't be stopped and killed by the good guys once they reach high enough level." "Duh.....yeah!" "......you do realize that you are about to become a walking cautionary tale as this contract will get you nowhere close to your guys before you are dramatically killed and have to pay for it for eternity?" "Heh heh. Funny Devil say big words." "Nevermind. My unusually high conscience roll (considering my -4 modifier) is appeased, sign here."

One of the major problems with signing a diabolic contract (even if you're evil and supposedly going to hell anyway) is that you lose the chance for ressurection (Bel has your soul and he's not letting it go.) Which brings me the subject of resurrection magic:

There is a certain problem with Resurrection in the hands of anyone but the heroes, or the wise man on the mountain top, is best put by the quote: "Wars would end if the dead could return," said British prime minister Stanley Baldwin. We're GMs. Wars are our business. The worst villian in any fictional world, is in fact, the writer that created the world, as he had to create the conflict to stimulate the audience's interest (or, in our case, to get the players interested). Another look at the problem comes from the article: What Does A Guy Have To Do To Die Around Here? (http://www.gamegrene.com/node/258) that points out the concrete problem namely:


Do our D&D campaigns really reflect a world where raising the dead is so easy? What would a world like that be like? The PCs keep coming back death and after death. . .why shouldn't their opponents? What if they had to kill that evil wizard once for each level, and each Constitution point, before they were sure he could never menace the world again? Seems rather silly, doesn't it?

An alternative system for handling resurrection magic is given here (http://www.mu.ranter.net/theory/general.html#death) best summurized on this point:
A theoretical system Shadwolf and I worked out involved resurrections being performed by a house of worship of the character's faith (which incidentally increases the value of religion in the campaign to something more than "useless lore"). A character might have, say, 5 resurrections at the start of play. More resurrections could be earned by the character through devout service to the temple, religious questing, being a local hero, whatever, and would slowly regenerate automatically if the character was below 5 remaining resurrections. and it brings me back to our original topic of short sighted evil magic users selling away their afterlives for some (possibly) potent, but not world-balance damning magic.

Also, most societies don't encourage consorting with evil outsiders, but even the "rebellous" mages with anti-establishment, gothy teenager-like attitudes should have gotten word that diabolism/necromancy/demon summoning is arguably never worth the price of admission.

And those Evil outsiders NEED those all-too-rare madmen, if not for their souls (they're probably gonna get them anyway), but for advancing their plans for the prime material plane.

I propose a system that uses Musashi's limited resurrection system (http://www.mu.ranter.net/theory/general.html#death) in which Devils (which lack ressurectionability on their own, if you recall) simply buy resurrections (and loyalty) from mortals in exchange for power, favors, etc. Diabolists/Warlocks/Necromancers/Blackguards that get their powers in this way cannot obtain "extra" resurrections over their "natural" five, and their "natural" five resurrections recharge more slowly, but they get plenty bonuses determined by their current infernal partner (archdevils in particular are a slippery lot and they just might "convert" active diabolist to backstab the devil that the character originally made a deal with!)

you might need to toy with this system to suit your campaign's needs but it should make evil magic a little more tempting and NPCs that use it a little more viable.

Josh Inno
2007-02-17, 03:53 PM
The continuing resurrection problem is also a key element not only in OotS, but also in supermegatopia's crushed comics.

Jimp
2007-02-17, 04:26 PM
I've been using this idea for a long time in my homebrew setting. Not the exact mechanic you've shown, since my setting handles ressurection and death a bit differently, but a similar one. It's worked pretty well for me so far.

Matthew
2007-02-17, 04:45 PM
I am pretty much of the "when you're dead you're dead" school of thought, with only the very rarest of exceptions, but I don't play a lot of High Level Games. Seems like a good idea, though.

Thoughtbot360
2007-02-17, 07:12 PM
I am pretty much of the "when you're dead you're dead" school of thought, with only the very rarest of exceptions, but I don't play a lot of High Level Games. Seems like a good idea, though.

I know! Why are your heroes defending the innocent and smiting the wicked in the first place if death isn't well, DEATH!? The innocent will be mad at you over the pain of dying when they are resurrected if there was something you could have done but, hey, they're back! And why go through the hassle of killing any non-outsider (hell, actually. I'm pretty sure Asmodeus can get someone to Wish him back. Most likely from himself with a well-worded pre-emptive wish he got somewhere during his rule) if they just come back?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-17, 07:32 PM
Well, in regards to the issue of raising the dead, I created this table to deal with the situation in my homebrew world:


Returning from the Dead
In the multiverse of Tyrath, what happens after death is that the soul-energy of an individual joins the energy flows underlying the planar realities and travels to the Well of Souls in the planar realm of Scitayr, where they can be claimed by their patron deities or just left. Spells that raise the dead (other than revivify) must pull an individual's soul back from wherever it has reached on its journey, and on the way back, the soul may become intermingled with energies of another type. When you are the target of a raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection spell or effect, roll on the following table:
{table="head"]% Roll|Result
01-50|No Special Effect: The spell functions normally as described in the PHB.
51-53|Touched by Air: You gain the Air subtype and the ability to cast gaseous form 1/day at CL equal to half your VD, rounded down.
54-56|Touched by Earth: You gain the Earth subtype and the ability to cast stone shape 1/day at CL equal to half your VD, rounded down.
57-59|Touched by Fire: You gain the Fire subtype and the ability to cast flame arrow 1/day at CL equal to half your VD, rounded down.
60-62|Touched by Water: You gain the Water subtype and the ability to cast water breathing 1/day at CL equal to half your VD, rounded down.
63-65|Touched by Life: You gain the Positive subtype and the ability to cast cure serious wounds 1/day at a CL equal to half your VD, rounded down.
66-68|Touched by Death: You gain the Negative subtype and the ability to cast inflict serious wounds 1/day at a CL equal to half your VD, rounded down.
69-70|Touched by Chaos: You gain the Chaotic subtype, and you also gain the ability to cast magic circle against law 1/day at CL equal to half your VD, rounded down.
71-72|Touched by Evil: You gain the Evil subtype, and you also gain the ability to cast magic circle against good 1/day at CL equal to half your VD, rounded down.
73-74|Touched by Good: You gain the Good subtype, and you also gain the ability to cast magic circle against evil 1/day at CL equal to half your VD, rounded down.
75-76|Touched by Law: You gain the Law subtype, and you also gain the ability to cast magic circle against chaos 1/day at CL equal to half your VD, rounded down.
77|Tattered Mind: You take 1 point of Intelligence damage. If you fail a DC 18 Will save, this becomes a permanent loss.
78|Tattered Will: You take 1 point of Wisdom damage. If you fail a DC 18 Will save, this becomes a permanent loss.
79|Tattered Spirit: You take 1 point of Charisma damage. If you fail a DC 18 Will save, this becomes a permanent loss.
80|Loss of Memory: You lose a rank in a single skill (DM's choice).
81-00|Fated to Death: Scitayr has decided that you cannot be returned to life by any means, not even wish or miracle, until and unless He can be persuaded to allow you to return to life.[/table]
Note that the above effects are cumulative from life to life.

Anyone that I don't want to be brought back: "Sorry, that person was fated to die at that time. You can't bring her back."

Douglas
2007-02-17, 07:41 PM
Reason to defend the innocent: Resurrection is EXPENSIVE, very few of them will have the means to pay for it themselves, and trying to pay for them will drain any group's coffers very quickly if any significant number of people died.

Reason to kill the wicked: At the very least, it's an inconvenience for them and costs resources. If you really don't want someone to come back, there are ways to make it much harder for anyone to resurrect them. Just a quick search in the SRD turned up Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm). The thinaun special material from Complete Warrior automatically absorbs the soul of anyone who dies while touching it. Land the killing blow with a thinaun weapon, and resurrection of any form is impossible without the weapon in hand. ISTR that the Book of Vile Darkness also has a few ways to completely destroy a soul, though that option isn't really available for good characters without an extreme overriding reason.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-17, 08:00 PM
Personally, I like the Reincarnation spell. You come back to life...as something else. The world needs more kobold barbarians and grimlock wizards.

Saph
2007-02-17, 09:04 PM
There is a certain problem with Resurrection in the hands of anyone but the heroes, or the wise man on the mountain top, is best put by the quote: "Wars would end if the dead could return," said British prime minister Stanley Baldwin. We're GMs. Wars are our business. The worst villian in any fictional world, is in fact, the writer that created the world, as he had to create the conflict to stimulate the audience's interest (or, in our case, to get the players interested).

I don't think wars would end if the dead could return. I'd say the opposite if anything - if you know that you can come back from the dead, one of the main reasons to be scared of wars is gone.

Anyway, it isn't as easy as you make out. Even the cheapest raise spell, raise dead, costs 5000 gold. That's a lot of money, and it only works if you get the body to the cleric within one day per caster level. If you're missing some body parts or longer than a fortnight's elapsed, you need a resurrection, which costs 10000. And if the body's gone or the time limit on resurrection is elapsed, you need a true resurrection, which is 25000 gold. 25000! That's an insane amount of money - and that's assuming you can even find a cleric of 17th level or over willing to cast the spell. In most campaign worlds, clerics of that level aren't easy to find.

There's also the issue that the dead person has to want to be raised in the first place, which really should be a bit unlikely for most people. If you're in your character's conception of paradise, why would you want to go back to the Material Plane and all the problems you had in life? You'd have to have an unusually strong reason. And finally, from a gaming perspective, a large fraction of player deaths happen as a result of TPKs. TPKs mean no survivors to take the bodies back to a helpful cleric, and often result in no bodies left at all, or even no souls if things went really badly.

As a result of all this, I don't see characters being raised anywhere near as much as that paragraph suggests. In the campaign I'm playing in right now there have been about five times as many PC deaths as PC raises.

- Saph

JaronK
2007-02-17, 11:04 PM
I always loved the optional rule in Heroes of Horror that said you had to sacrifice someone of your alignment to get yourself raised. Evil people had no problem, but would a paladin let you sacrifice someone who's lawful good to bring them back?

Thoughtbot360
2007-02-17, 11:33 PM
I don't think wars would end if the dead could return. I'd say the opposite if anything - if you know that you can come back from the dead, one of the main reasons to be scared of wars is gone.

Thats an understandable conclusion insofar as the understanding that with death soundly defeated, more people might do things that they would have considered too dangerous to actually attempt to do, and volunteering to fight a war is right up there with bungie jumping and mimicking Eval Keneval. Thing is, war can take more than just your life. It can take your sanity. It can also impoverish both nations if they fight wastefully, or for a prolonged period of time (although a state that could afford mass resurrections via technology or neccesary material components for the magic would be very rich indeed). Theres also the reasons why otherwise candyassed people choose to volunteer for war in the first place (much of it usually has to do with protecting those of their community that don't or can't volunteer. Which, while callous-sounding, is less of a priority because death isn't permanent) as well as the brave soldier's governemnt's desire for military adventures which, if we consider a resurrection-rich society is probably weathy in terms other than just resurrection, probably dry up at less a little bit. Also, revenge is a dead concept now, as the only person left to hold responsible for death is poor old Father Time.



and that's assuming you can even find a cleric of 17th level or over willing to cast the spell.
You know one of the biggest problems I have with level systems is that experience points become a powerful, desirable resource for society, and yet, there is no way to measure how NPCs get them other than to level important NPCs (particular villains) up as the PCs go up and say there is a limit of "Good" high-level NPCs, and their job is to provide the rare magical service (at cost) to the PCs as well as stop the PCs from attacking the general populace when they get cocky. When you get to epic level, you will fight a lot of epic level clerics and other foes. Where were these guys when you needed a true resurrection when your own healer was Disintegrated while you were 10th level? As for the money, you have a point, but maybe, just maybe (not during anytime during your campaign) raise dead with get cheaper/more efficent and the average working family will get richer at some time in the future. Also, not all "innocents" are dirt-poor peasants. What if your heroes have to escort a princess, botch it up, and shrug their shoulders as they "borrow" some of the princess' diamonds as material components. I'm sure she won't mind. And don't forget, some DMs (especially new ones) might abandon material components as a clunky, unneccesary game mechanic. BAM! Now just find a cheap or generous 9th, 13th or 17th level cleric... (and lol and behold, the PCs are 15th level with a captive cleric from the bad guys in tow. Tell him you'll put in a good word for him about his "good behavior" at his trial. Remember kids, taking prisoners is good for you.)


I always loved the optional rule in Heroes of Horror that said you had to sacrifice someone of your alignment to get yourself raised. Evil people had no problem, but would a paladin let you sacrifice someone who's lawful good to bring them back?

Don't get me started on alignment. Actually, anyone who's truly "good", in my opinion, wouldn't let you sacrifice ANYONE, in all my comic books, the hero is saved by a willng martyr who sacrificed him/herself to protect the hero, against the hero's wishes. Also: can a true neutral person sacrifice an animal?

edit: Made certain arguments clearer, basic prettying up

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-18, 10:26 AM
I know! Why are your heroes defending the innocent and smiting the wicked in the first place if death isn't well, DEATH!?
Why is grand theft auto treated so seriously when you can always get another car? Answer: because it's expensive.

How many of these innocents can afford to be resurrected?

Even those that can afford resurrection are most likely to be limited to raise dead. They come back with less life energy (lost level or Constitution). Even the lost level is pretty serious, since anyone other than adventuring folk finds gaining levels to be wicked-hard, as evidenced by the majority of the world being 1st level NPC classes.

It's not all that easy for the innocents.


Well, in regards to the issue of raising the dead, I created this table to deal with the situation in my homebrew world:
I rather like this table.


You know one of the biggest problems I have with level systems is that experience points become a powerful, desirable resource for society, and yet, there is no way to measure how NPCs get them other than to level important NPCs (particular villains) up as the PCs go up and say there is a limit of "Good" high-level NPCs, and their job is to provide the rare magical service (at cost) to the PCs as well as stop the PCs from attacking the general populace when they get cocky. When you get to epic level, you will fight a lot of epic level clerics and other foes. Where were these guys when you needed a true resurrection when your own healer was Disintegrated while you were 10th level?
I think as you gain levels, you're really supposed to be focusing more on monsters that are just that powerful and less on classed opponents, unless those opponents also happen to be monsters that are just that powerful.

In any case, where the epic level non-monster NPCs that do show up are concerned—they weren't just "hiding," they just had no reason to interact with the PCs before. They're off pursuing they're own plans. They don't care about some 7th-level nobodies that are running around taking out other 7th-level nobodies. And if they are somewhat concerned over the rare set of 7th-level nobodies, these NPCs will just let their 9th-level minions take care of it for them.


Also, not all "innocents" are dirt-poor peasants.
But the vast majority are.


What if your heroes have to escort a princess, botch it up, and shrug their shoulders as they "borrow" some of the princess' diamonds as material components. I'm sure she won't mind.
You might be surprised.

You can't even guarantee her soul will be willing to return.

Thoughtbot360
2007-02-18, 11:45 AM
You all make your case well, and I've talked about my opinions on the matter (including editing the post just above Windrider's this morning), so I hope you don't mind if I simply write this off as a case of different thought, and offer that we simply agree to disagree. However, Windrider, you approached another subject that bugs me.


I think as you gain levels, you're really supposed to be focusing more on monsters that are just that powerful and less on classed opponents, unless those opponents also happen to be monsters that are just that powerful.

There is a thread thats causing quite a ruckus on our fair Gaming (D20) board. "Do PCs make armies irrelevant?" One thing that can up is that a Great Gold or Red Wyrm will never be seriously injured before he simply gets too exhausted from killing so many soldiers and flies home. And that assumes the army doesn't rout. Assuming that everything in the monster manual is effective a lvl 1 warrior or an animal, going by bonus hit dice and spell-like abilities alone, there's about 45 intelligent races that blow humans and the other "good" races out of the water. Uncle Figgy's guides (which seem to have tragically died, yes even his new site at www.dragondogpress.com) talk about how game balance is best when it stems from getting your world balanced. On the subject of non-humans, he has problems with races that are too powerful or too alien to be PCs, because they have problems as being NPCs too! A too powerful race, as I've been trying to point out, would have conquered the world (or be in a similiarly high position in the resulting multi-racial society. Hey, a campaign world that showcases such a society with a sense of social justice at least equal to what the developed world has today would be a nice analog to a transhuman future in which natural humans and various people who've advanced their capabilities would look like! But, I'll betcha nobody would play a human or a gnome is such a world any faster than they would a goblin or a kobold.) and that would force the players to crack open their savage species books and play as the strongest monster types. Too alien to be played, and its too alien to be understood by a GM.

Heck, most the races are even SMART than human beings. How do humans get to be dominate players civilization in such a world anyway?

It brings me to my newest wierd@55 idea topic to date. Watch the boards for it, I'll post it sometime this afternoon.

Matthew
2007-02-18, 12:53 PM
Yes indeed, the proliferation of Races in D&D (or Star Trek syndrome) can be something of a verisimilitude problem. Whilst pretty much anything goes for my 3.x short campaigns or one off adventures, I try (quite successfully) to keep the number of D&D Races to a minimum in my long term D&D campaign, same as with the "when your dead your dead" attitude (hell, that's a rule we use in Zombies as well, no regenerations).

Thoughtbot360
2007-02-18, 11:30 PM
Actually, there is one thing remaining to say about Raise Dead and its evolutions: Why do they need diamonds? Specifically diamonds? Its intentionally sparse and general because the gods apparently don't care the about exact quantity, just so long as the cost 5,000 gold. Its seems kind of strange that immortal, abstract being like gods wouldn't care about material diamonds. Also, the monetary value of the diamonds (or anything, for that matter) isn't set in stone: Inflation, Deflation, different currencies, and "one man's treasure is another's useless junk." Also, how well the diamond is cut, or if its cut at all can make a difference in its price, but that doesn't change the fact that, physically, its the same diamond. I'd hate to be the priest who has to tell the impoverished family that spent all their money bribing a jewel miner for an unfinished diamond that could be cut for a price of 5,000 the bad news: "I'm sorry, but Blibo the old Gnome Jeweler just isn't what he used to be and his old, shaky hands cut your diamond just poorly enough, ruining it and your mother's chances of getting a Raise Dead in time. I'm afraid you've spent your savings and come all this way for nothing. OH! If only the jeweler's market valued diamonds a mere 200 gold pieces more!"

And besides, material components sound more like they should be something wizards exclusively worry about. They reek of Alchemy, and Alchemy reeks of scholarship and science more than receiving direct power from a god. If you don't have a otherworldly patron to power your magic, then you might need an energy source or some basic proto-chemistry. But if you do have a god powering your magic, it seems kind of limited, or petty, that they require a handful of diamonds for each casting. Why do gods even have clerics if not to inspire faith in their power, without actually being there to do the inspiring (they apparently need some me time, so they lend out power to proxy agents, trained to be fiercely loyal to them, IE Clerics), and if one particular cleric has devoted 9 levels to spreading your good news and keeping your faithful alive, where do you get off asking for bling-bling, can I get an amen?!

Mewtarthio
2007-02-19, 01:14 AM
Well, obviously, diamonds are necessary for the, er, soul-magnets. Yes. Soul-magnets. Each diamond contains "essence of diamond" which is what you're really paying for. Guild standards keep the price of diamonds standardized because the Guild knows all, sees all, and controls all (including the gods). The price is just the price in Guild Standard GP, which never changes because the Guild is a dirty pinko commie-lover. The gods would really, really like to restore the soul for free, but the Guild won't let them because the Guild wants to sell more diamonds. So, the gods make you buy diamonds and put them into a soul magnet. And then the Guild takes the diamonds out of the soul magnet once you're done and buries them underground for the dwarves to find.

EDIT: Also, an Epic spell with the Life seed can get around this because even the Guild knows better than to take on a guy with Epic Spellcasting.

Thoughtbot360
2007-02-19, 09:07 AM
Well, obviously, diamonds are necessary for the, er, soul-magnets. Yes. Soul-magnets. Each diamond contains "essence of diamond" which is what you're really paying for. Guild standards keep the price of diamonds standardized because the Guild knows all, sees all, and controls all (including the gods). The price is just the price in Guild Standard GP, which never changes because the Guild is a dirty pinko commie-lover. The gods would really, really like to restore the soul for free, but the Guild won't let them because the Guild wants to sell more diamonds. So, the gods make you buy diamonds and put them into a soul magnet. And then the Guild takes the diamonds out of the soul magnet once you're done and buries them underground for the dwarves to find.

EDIT: Also, an Epic spell with the Life seed can get around this because even the Guild knows better than to take on a guy with Epic Spellcasting.

Why do I feel the need to fetch my tinfoil hat? :smallbiggrin:

Jack Mann
2007-02-19, 06:18 PM
Tried posting to this thread last night, but the boards went down.

Anywho, if you want to make resurrection magic much harder to gain access to, or remove it entirely, you're going to have to change a lot of things. As it is, you'll actually decrease dramatic tension at high levels.

See, at high levels, death becomes fairly common. You've got your save-or-dies, of course, but the real culprit here is death by massive damage. You get to the point where 50+ damage becomes very common. Now, your frontliners (fighters, clerics, etc.) will have good fortitude saves, but they're going to hit a natural one eventually. And that's it. They're dead. And of course monsters can just eat through a PCs hit points given some lucky rolls.

There's nothing wrong with a high-danger game, but once you get to high levels, if you don't have any resurrection magic, you're looking at a revolving door party, where you've got someone dying once every few sessions, and conveniently replaced by someone of equal level. This is just as bad as no permanent death at all. It's not a question of, "will I die," but "when will I die?" It becomes very difficult to become attached to a character, to develop a character, who will be dead soon anyway. There's no suspense because you know how the story is going to end, and after the third or fourth time in game where you tear up your character sheet, the novelty wears off.

Iames's table works a bit better, in that it allows resurrection, but makes it harder. But ultimately, the problem is the lethal nature of high-level D&D. To fix the problem, start by making instant, unavoidable death rarer.

LotharBot
2007-02-19, 06:34 PM
You've got your save-or-dies, of course, but the real culprit here is death by massive damage.

This is a mechanic I've intentionally removed from my games. I figure, "massive" damage should be like, 2/3 of your max HP in one hit, not some fixed value like "50 hp" that becomes trivial at high levels. And if you get hit for 2/3 of your max HP in one hit, I don't see any reason to instakill you... just let you take your chances with getting hit again.

-----

I like the "return from the dead" table, though it could use some tweaking to account for spell level (True Resurrection should be more likely to pull you through the energies without anything odd happening, for example.)