Unarmed swordsage

[Smorgonoffz]

Would a swordsage build(unarmed variant), focused on shadow hand maneuvers with the additions of vow of poverty be viable?.

Also does the unarmed variant also get the monk bonus ac?.

Pending the answers i'll post the sekleton build.


Ps: i read the handbook

[Doc_Maynot]

Not anymore so than any others. It'd still be lacking the things Monks would need. Unless, that is, Swordsages can get flight.

With the knowledge that the swordsage's have their own involving Light Armor and that the adaptation asks you to get rid of the proficiency, it would make sense if it was altered to suit. However that part of the adaptation is liable to be DM dependent, as it was not a part of the listed changes.

[Larkas]

Eh, more viable than a monk, in any case. That doesn't mean much, though. Even though the swordsage isn't nearly as gear dependent as a monk, he still needs it to do stuff that is expected at higher levels.

[Gemini476]

Not anymore so than any others. It'd still be lacking the things Monks would need. Unless, that is, Swordsages can get flight.

With the knowledge that the swordsage's have their own involving Light Armor and that the adaptation asks you to get rid of the proficiency, it would make sense if it was altered to suit. However that part of the adaptation is liable to be DM dependent, as it was not a part of the listed changes.

Swordsages get at-will swift action air walk at level 15 in the form of Balance on the Sky, but that's a bit late. They also get swift/move/standard action teleportation, but that's not quite enough. Swordsages still need magic items, even if they go unarmed and unarmored.

Really, though, you shouldn't be using Vow of Poverty unless you're a

Totemist
Druid
Animal companion
Psicrystal
Maybe add Incarnate to that list, although I don't really know what they need for magic items.

Basically, Vow of Poverty is always inferior to magic items. If you have the ability to get magic items at something resembling WBL, do not give it up. The only exceptions are when you either cannot use items (Druid without Wildling Clasps), have some replacement already (Meldshapers), or are not really entitled to WBL in the first place (animal companions and psicrystals).

[Mato]

Also does the unarmed variant also get the monk bonus ac?.Yes, but you lose proficiency.

Wearing armor that you're not proficient with just means the armor check penalty also applies to attack rolls. Leather armor offers +2 to AC and has a -0 penalty allowing it to be worn at the first level without any concerns. You can also wear hellforged mithral breastplate without any penalties while still benefiting from your ac bonus. Cost difference between that and normal mithral breastplate is only 1,000 gold which is pretty insignificant in the long run.

[John Longarrow]

Would a swordsage build(unarmed variant), focused on shadow hand maneuvers with the additions of vow of poverty be viable?.

Also does the unarmed variant also get the monk bonus ac?.

Pending the answers i'll post the sekleton build.


Ps: i read the handbook

Viable? Depends on how optimized your game is. Personally I don't think it would be good.

ALL Sword Sages get Wisdom to AC at 2nd. The 'unarmed' adaptation only gets it when not wearing armor. Normally you keep it in light armor.

If you want to play a monk like character, go Human with a minimum dex of 16.
Feats will get you where you want to be. You will probably want to dip fighter for 2 levels. I'd recommend

L1 - Sword Sage 1 - Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse
L2 - Fighter 1 - Feats Shadow Hand (Dex to Damage in Shadowhand Stance)
L3 - Sword Sage 2 - Two Weapon Fighting
L4 - Fighter 2 - Superior Unarmed Strike (Requires BAB +3)

At 4th level you will have close to the same saves as a Monk, about the same skills, and about the same unarmed damage. You won't be as MAD (using dex instead of STR for melee) and you get maneuvers instead of the monks class features.

At this point keep going up Sword Sage. You may want to dip 1 level each in Crusader (at 5th for 2nd level maneuvers) and warblade (at 9th to get Iron Heart Surge) with the goal being a BAB of 16 at 20th character level for the extra attack.

This also means you can walk up to monks and punk them in a fist fight...

[Mato]

Viable? Depends on how optimized your game is. Personally I don't think it would be good. You will probably want to dip fighter for 2 levels. At 4th level you will have close to the same saves as a Monk, about the same skills, and about the same unarmed damage. You won't be as MAD (using dex instead of STR for melee) and you get maneuvers instead of the monks class features. This also means you can walk up to monks and punk them in a fist fight...Hmm...

Unarmed swordsage 1 / fighter 1 / swordsage 1 / fighter 1
Weapon finesse, shadow blade, twf, superior unarmed strike.
bab +3, 23.5 hp, 34 skill points, fort +3, relf +3, will +3, initiative +1.
quick to act +1, discipline focus, ac bonus, 1d8 unarmed.
Knows seven 1st level maneuvers but can only ready 4 of them.
Example: Stance blood in the water (crit bonuses). Support types such as moment of perfect mind (concentration to will), sudden leap (swift action jump movement), distracting ember (flanking bonuses). And increased offense types such as burning blade (+1d6+3 dmg), clinging shadow strike (+1d6 dmg, save or 20% miss for 1 rnd), sapphire nightmare blade (x2 dmg).

Sleeping tiger invisible fist broken one wall walker monk 4
Weapon finesse, anything that adds more damage I suppose, improved initiative, two weapon fighting.
Bab +3, 21.5 hp, 28 skill points, fort +4, relf +4, will +4, initiative +4.
Furry of blows, invisibility, lay on hands, holy strike, +10ft to speed, can run on walls, 1d8 unarmed.
Deals +1d6 vs "typical" opponents on every hit, less hp but better saves & initiative, entered three dimensional movement, self-healing (min 4hp/day @ 8 charisma), better speed, 50% miss chance with no save to negate on so on. Pretty much superior in every possible way, maybe you should have suggested some fighter acfs.

Unarmed swordsage 4
Weapon finesse, shadow blade.
Bab +3, 21.5 hp, 42 skill points, fort +1, relf +4, will +4, initiative +1.
quick to act +1, discipline focus, ac bonus, insightful strike, 1d6 unarmed.
Knows six 1st level maneuvers and two 2nd level maneuvers but can only ready 5 of them.
Example: Stance blood in the water (crit bonuses), child of shadow (concealment bonuses). Support types such as moment of perfect mind (concentration to will), sudden leap (swift action jump movement), distracting ember (flanking bonuses), shadow jaunt (teleport). And increased offense types such as burning blade (+1d6+3 dmg), sapphire nightmare blade (x2 dmg), and either rabid wolf strike (+4 att/+2d6 dmg) or stone vise (+1d6, opponent's seed is 0ft for 1 rnd, excellent combo with sudden leap).
It's less "powerful" than the monk build.
Child of shadow + distracting ember + rabid wolf is +6 att & 1d6+2d6+wis (10.5) damage, has 20% concealment, but forgoes the invested in twf.
Invisible monk deals +2 att vs flat-footed 1d8+1d6 (8) has 50% concealment, and makes usage of twf.
Burning blade & twf deals a boost maximum 4d6+6 (20)
The monk's furry of blows and twf deals a sustained 3d8+3d6 (24).
However the SS could instead use a move action to move to his opponent, stone vise to entrap them, and sudden leap to step away possibly negating his opponent's retaliation. The SS can teleport, distracting ember can be used to grant an ally flanking rather than your self, child of shadow's concealment can also be sustained at the cost of twf while the monk's invisibility is typically only good for one round. And burning blade will pay off better in the coming levels and it obtains 3rd level maneuvers next level which is pretty significant.

Summery
Fighter dip is the weakest, it gives up 2nd level maneuvers with little to show for it. ACFed monk is better solo build for combat than even the pure swordsage. But the pure swordsage begins to show why he is in another tier by bringing campaign altering options into play (no door can stop him with his drill). He can directly assist his allies rather than just him self and savelessly lock down opponents to help control the battle field.

Suggestion
Go pure swordsage.