Pathfinder Society Summoner looking to be BETTER/STRONGER/FASTER for level 7 !

[Scosu]

I have just got the XP to make Level 7. So, I'm wondering... (this character is PATHFINDER SOCIETY, so I want to keep him (them?) PFS Legal)

A) How does my build look thus far from people with eyes and experience more excellent than mine?

B) If I'm keeping on the current path, what adjustments should I make in my existing Evolutions, and what should I take at Level 7?

C) I have the idea of using my Eidolon as a mount some times (when I enlarge-person on him via share spells since he is an outsider), however I've been told that only I would get to attack (with a Lance or some such), or the Eidolon gets his attacks (on Pounce (or full round attack), it is Bite/Claw + Claw/Gore), but not both. Can someone straighten me out on this regarding RAW? (Additionally, since my Summoner isn't really a melee person, putting him in the thick of melee on the back of Red-Lion may be less than wise?)

D) I have been giving some consideration to switching to a Biped form. I got the wind knocked out of my sails last night facing against DR10 / Good-Silver which Red Lion could do nearly-nothing against. At least with a Biped, I could have pulled out weapons of correct alignment/material. I had the evolution MAGIC, but apparently that didn't cut the mustard (or the bad guy!)

General Info: My Half-Elf is named "Summon-Noir" (like those movies Noir, see?)
The Eidolon is a fantastical "Red Lion", who is a quadruped with a saddle-like depression between his shoulder blades, which functions as a saddle if Summon-Noir is Reduced or Red-Lion is Enlarged.

To Date: I've been focusing on the " Pouncer (Cat Form) " from "[3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner".

Here are my stat blocks as they exist:

Summon-Noir the Half-Elf
Male Half-Elf Summoner 6

NG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +1; Senses bond senses, low-light vision; Perception +5
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 15, touch 11, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 45 (6d8+12)
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +7; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities shield ally; Immune sleep; Resist shield ally
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee dagger +4 (1d4/19-20) and
lance +0 (1d8/×3) and
longspear +4 (1d8/×3) and
quarterstaff +4 (1d6)
Ranged light crossbow +5 (1d8/19-20)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 6th; concentration +10)
7/day—summon monster
Summoner Spells Known (CL 6th; concentration +10):
2nd (4/day)—bull's strength, lesser restore eidolon (DC 16), see invisibility,
slow (DC 16)
1st (5/day)—enlarge person (DC 15), lesser rejuvenate eidolon, life conduit, mage
armor
0 (at will)—daze (DC 14), detect magic, guidance, light, mage hand, read magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 18
Base Atk +4; CMB +4; CMD 15
Feats Extra Evolution, Extra Evolution, Resilient Eidolon, Skill Focus (Use Magic
Device)
Traits ease of faith, greater link
Skills Diplomacy +14, Handle Animal +9, Heal +2, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5,
Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (planes) +5, Perception
+5, Ride +5, Spellcraft +6, Use Magic Device +16; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Catfolk, Common, Elven
SQ eidolon link, elf blood, life link, maker's call, share spells with eidolon
Combat Gear cold iron crossbow bolts (50), snapleaf, wand of cure light wounds,
wand of cure moderate wounds; Other Gear mithral chain shirt, dagger, lance,
light crossbow, longspear, quarterstaff, bracers of armor +1, cloak of resistance
+1, handy haversack, wayfinder, artisan's tools, noble's outfit, summoner's kit,
9,443 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bond Senses (6 rounds/day) (Ex) As a standard action, you can share Eidolon's
senses while on same plane.
Caravan (1 @ 5 lbs) (Diplomacy) Can use the chosen skill to make Day Job rolls.
Eidolon Link (Ex) Mental link allows communication over any distance, but share
magic item slots.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to
race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Greater Link The link between you and your eidolon is stronger than most. Your
eidolon’s current and maximum hit point totals are not reduced by 50% until you
are separated by 110 feet or more. Your eidolon’s current and maximum hit point
totals are not reduced b
Life Link (Su) Damage that dismisses Eidolon can be taken by you. It weakens if
not in 100 ft.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color
and detail.
Maker's Call (1/day) (Su) Eidolon teleports to an adjacent square, as dimension
door.
Resilient Eidolon When you are knocked unconscious, fall asleep, or are killed,
your eidolon remains with you
Share Spells with Eidolon (Ex) Your spells ignore type restrictions for Eidolon
and it can recieve your personal spells.
Shield Ally (+2 AC/Saves) (Ex) +2 AC and save when within Eidolon's reach.
Summon Monster III (7/day) (Sp) Standard action summon lasts minutes, but only 1
active at a time and can't use with eidolon.
Wayfinder (empty) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the
Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a
command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The
wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2
circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders
include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone
slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting
your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the
wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).

--------------------
Pathfinder Society Wayfinder Bonus
+ 1 on knowledge checks on weaknesses and abilities of creatures
Diplomacy is my Day Job Roll, due to my Caravan ownership

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Red Lion - EIDOLON
Male Quadruped
NG Medium outsider
Init +9; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +8
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 14, flat-footed 21 (+3 Dex, +10 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 32 (+5)
Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +3 (+4 morale bonus vs. Enchantment spells and effects)
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft., climb 40 ft.
Melee bite +8 (1d6+3) and
2 claws +8 (1d6+3) and
gore +8 (1d6+3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +5; CMB +8; CMD 22 (26 vs. trip)
Feats Additional Traits, Improved Initiative, Iron Will
Traits loyalty across lifetimes, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +8 (+12 jump), Climb +12, Escape Artist +7, Intimidate +8,
Knowledge (planes) +2, Perception +8, Sense Motive +4, Stealth +7, Use Magic
Device +6
Languages Common
SQ devotion, magic attacks, pounce
Other Gear ring of protection +1, summoner's kit
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Climbing (40 feet) You have a Climb speed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Devotion +4 (Ex) +4 morale bonus on Will Saves vs. Enchantments.
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Loyalty across Lifetimes Eidolon treats Constitution score as 2 higher when
dying.
Magic Attacks (Ex) Your natural attacks are magic.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack after a charge.
Trip (Ex) You can make a trip attempt on a successful attack.
--------------------
The Red Lion Eidolon represents fire, fear, and fortitude.

The Eidolon is a fantastical "Red Lion", who is a quadruped with a saddle-like depression between his shoulder blades, which functions as a saddle if Summon-Noir is Reduced or Red-Lion is Enlarged.

Thank you in advance for any insight you can share!

[Snowbluff]

You can just put on some arms. Pounce is really good, and even better with arms.

[Scosu]

You can just put on some arms. Pounce is really good, and even better with arms.

I've always had a hard time understanding how it works mixing weapons and natural attacks.

If I put on arms, and put say, swords in the arms - do I get to make two sword attacks and my natural bite or claw attacks on a full round (or pounce)?

It keeps saying "iterative" attacks, which I fail to comprehend. Any clarity you can bless me with would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Snowbluff]

How it works:

You get all of your weapon attacks and their iteratives.

You also get all of your natural attacks. All of them count as secondary for this this. That means they all attack at -5, and only get 50% of your str bonus to damage.

I've heard that if you have claws, but are holding weapons in those hands, the weapons don't care and you can attack with the claws. It doesn't matter, since a quadruped should choose claws and hooves (they are secondary either way) for their legs.

[grarrrg]

It would be handy if you wrote out exactly what Evolutions you have, as trying to figure them out by subtracting stuff from a stat block is tricky.


I've always had a hard time understanding how it works mixing weapons and natural attacks.

If I put on arms, and put say, swords in the arms - do I get to make two sword attacks and my natural bite or claw attacks on a full round (or pounce)?

It keeps saying "iterative" attacks, which I fail to comprehend. Any clarity you can bless me with would be appreciated. Thanks!

Iterative attacks are what you get for having high Bab, and using Manufactured Weapons. If your Bab is 7, then on a Full Attack you get one attack at +7, and another at +2 (highest Bab -5). When your Bab reaches 11, you get another attack on a Full Attack, this time at Bab-10. This is commonly written out as +11/+6/+1.

An Eidolon at level 7 has 6 Bab, so on a Full Attack you'd make one Weapon attack with the full +6 bonus, and another with only a +1 bonus.


Regardless of Bab, you may only attack with each Natural Attack _once_ per Full attack.
Natural Attacks come in two types, Primary, and Secondary. Primary Naturals use Full Bab, and get Full STR to damage. Secondary Naturals use Bab-5, and only get 1/2 STR to damage.

Mixing Natural and Manufactured
If you use a Weapon in the same Full Attack as a Natural, then ALL of your Natural attacks are treated as Secondaries, with the To-Hit/Damage penalties applied. Your Manufactured Weapon suffers no penalties when mixed, and you are free to make as many Iterative attacks as your Bab allows.

Assume you have 2 Claw (primary) attacks, a Sword, 6 Bab, and a STR Mod of +4.
Your options on a Full Attack are
Just Claws, gets +10 To-Hit on both, and doing +4 damage
OR
Two Sword attacks at +10/+5 with +4 damage AND Two Claw attacks at +5/+5 with +2 damage each.
You also have the option to make a Standard attack with any ONE attack at +10 to-hit and +4 damage.

NINJAS!

I've heard that if you have claws, but are holding weapons in those hands, the weapons don't care and you can attack with the claws. It doesn't matter, since a quadruped should choose claws and hooves (they are secondary either way) for their legs.

I was going to argue with you here and link to a FAQ, but I cannot now find said FAQ...maybe I'm going crazy...maybe I'm already there...

[Scosu]

I appologize, I'm sorry I didn't extract the evolutions. Since I'm at the level - and can re-choose all the evolutions, I'll take whatever I'm told to take! (and, I wasn't aware of that being needed when asking for help in this forum. I can be taught!)

Okay -

So lets say I build up the following Quadruped Eidolon from my Level 7 Summoner.

Natural Attacks Allowed: 4 of 4
Limbs (Legs)
Limbs (Legs) [this is where the claws will go]
Bite
2 Limbs (Arms)
1 Claws (gain 2 claw attacks)
1 Pounce
1 Slam (gain 1 slam attack)
2 Weapon Training (Simple) [and buy a Morningstar]
1 Improved Damage Claws
2 Trip (Bite) - Make free trip maneuver if bite hits
1 Magic Attacks
1 Mount



If I'm understanding you correctly (and I have Hero Lab correct)

On a FULL ATTACK (no movement, just attack), or POUNCE (which gives me a full attack if I charge (aka move 10 feet or more) - I could do the following

Package A: Just natural attacks as I have been doing. Bite +10 to hit & (damage=1d6+4) /
Claw Left +10 to hit & (damage=1d6+4) /
Claw Right +10 to hit & (damage=1d6+4) /
Slam +10 to hit & (damage = 1d8+4)

OR

Package B:
Morningstar + 10 to hit & (damage 1d8+4)
Morningstar (again) + 5 to hit & (damage 1d8+4)
followed by all the natural attacks
Bite +5 to hit & (damage=1d6+2) /
Claw Left +5 to hit & (damage=1d6+2) /
Claw Right +5 to hit & (damage=1d6+2) /
Slam +5 to hit & (damage = 1d8+2)

Does my understanding match reality?

Thank you for your time!

Scosu


It would be handy if you wrote out exactly what Evolutions you have, as trying to figure them out by subtracting stuff from a stat block is tricky.



Iterative attacks are what you get for having high Bab, and using Manufactured Weapons. If your Bab is 7, then on a Full Attack you get one attack at +7, and another at +2 (highest Bab -5). When your Bab reaches 11, you get another attack on a Full Attack, this time at Bab-10. This is commonly written out as +11/+6/+1.

An Eidolon at level 7 has 6 Bab, so on a Full Attack you'd make one Weapon attack with the full +6 bonus, and another with only a +1 bonus.


Regardless of Bab, you may only attack with each Natural Attack _once_ per Full attack.
Natural Attacks come in two types, Primary, and Secondary. Primary Naturals use Full Bab, and get Full STR to damage. Secondary Naturals use Bab-5, and only get 1/2 STR to damage.

Mixing Natural and Manufactured
If you use a Weapon in the same Full Attack as a Natural, then ALL of your Natural attacks are treated as Secondaries, with the To-Hit/Damage penalties applied. Your Manufactured Weapon suffers no penalties when mixed, and you are free to make as many Iterative attacks as your Bab allows.

Assume you have 2 Claw (primary) attacks, a Sword, 6 Bab, and a STR Mod of +4.
Your options on a Full Attack are
Just Claws, gets +10 To-Hit on both, and doing +4 damage
OR
Two Sword attacks at +10/+5 with +4 damage AND Two Claw attacks at +5/+5 with +2 damage each.
You also have the option to make a Standard attack with any ONE attack at +10 to-hit and +4 damage.

[grarrrg]

Looks good.

Remember, at level 9 your Eidolon gets the Multiattack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons#TOC-Multiattack) feat for free, this reduces all Secondary To-Hit penalties to only -2 (instead of -5). It does nothing to help damage, but is quite good nonetheless.

You don't want to take this before level 9, as the default rules do not allow for re-training feats into something else, and at level 9 you'd wind up with a 'wasted' feat.


The only other catch is that I swore there was something official about not being able to use the same limb for a Natural Attack AND a Weapon attack in the same action (i.e. if you have Claw Hands that are holding a Sword you cannot Claw+Sword, as your Claws are busy holding the Sword).
But a quick search finds nothing, and it's late, and I'm going to bed...maybe tomorrow...

[Scosu]

The arms are for holding a weapon OR a slam attack when not holding weapons.

The legs are for claws.

I still can't figure out why anyone would WANT secondary attacks??? Do you get unlimited secondary attacks or something?

Wait - I just re-read what you said. So - my PRIMARY NATURAL attacks, following my manufactured weapon attacks, would be at -2 instead of -5. Okay.
I think I have that.


Looks good.

Remember, at level 9 your Eidolon gets the Multiattack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons#TOC-Multiattack) feat for free, this reduces all Secondary To-Hit penalties to only -2 (instead of -5). It does nothing to help damage, but is quite good nonetheless.

You don't want to take this before level 9, as the default rules do not allow for re-training feats into something else, and at level 9 you'd wind up with a 'wasted' feat.


The only other catch is that I swore there was something official about not being able to use the same limb for a Natural Attack AND a Weapon attack in the same action (i.e. if you have Claw Hands that are holding a Sword you cannot Claw+Sword, as your Claws are busy holding the Sword).
But a quick search finds nothing, and it's late, and I'm going to bed...maybe tomorrow...

[Slipperychicken]

Since I'm not in the mood to pick through the numbers, I'll give you two suggestions:

When you hit level 8, consider the Large evolution. If you take it, also consider the Small Frame (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/narrow-frame) feat if your GM enforces the squeezing rules.
You can save your EP from the "magic attacks" evolution by throwing down 4,000gp on an amulet of mighty fists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists). If you're near WBL for level 7, that should be a doable sum. Summoners don't need a lot of wealth to get by anyway, just clarify with your GM that the amulet will be adjustable for your eidolon and will be retrievable if the eidolon is dismissed while wearing it.




The only other catch is that I swore there was something official about not being able to use the same limb for a Natural Attack AND a Weapon attack in the same action (i.e. if you have Claw Hands that are holding a Sword you cannot Claw+Sword, as your Claws are busy holding the Sword).
But a quick search finds nothing, and it's late, and I'm going to bed...maybe tomorrow...

I remember this too, but the OP has his claws and swords on different limbs.

EDIT: You pretty much don't want secondary natural attacks ever. The penalties make them really suck, and there really isn't any mechanical incentive to get them.

[grarrrg]

I remember this too, but the OP has his claws and swords on different limbs.
A: His 'revised' build had a Slam, which competes for the arms/hands slot.
B: He may at some point want hand-claws, in which case it would be relevant.

Edit: HA! Found it! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks)
It's actually in the Natural Attack stuff:
"although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam"


EDIT: You pretty much don't want secondary natural attacks ever. The penalties make them really suck, and there really isn't any mechanical incentive to get them.

As for why secondaries? Evolution point-wise they are generally cheaper, or do more damage than the Primaries.
Also, if you plan on using a Manufactured weapon all the time, this makes secondaries somewhat MORE desirable.

Claws vs. Pincers.
Claws are Primary, Pincers are Secondary. Claws do 1d4, Pincers do 1d6
When it comes to damage boost stacking, Pincers can wind up doing a LOT more damage from that 'puny' little +die upgrade (size-increase, Imp. Damage feat, Imp. Damage Evo, etc...).

Also there are 2 little clauses that some people miss:
You can spend 1 Evo point on Pincers to REPLACE the base-forms Claws (Bipeds only).
If you have NO Primary Natural attacks and only Secondaries, then they get UPGRADED to Primaries (the text is a little vague if only one -type- of Secondary gets upgraded, or if ALL Secondaries get upgraded).
I want to make a Pincer-based Biped, sweet, sweet damage boost baby!


Also, I've held off this long but NO MORE! BIGGER BOAT EIDOLON GO! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?245496-PF-We-re-gonna-need-a-bigger-boat)

[neonchameleon]

Okay.

For the Eidolon, if you are using it as a combat form (I don't (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oRoaIVTmDH7k6tVbTdXzuw-dYTPkdRo57NYB5Wv7vJo/edit)), after you have your full complement of attacks, the best two things you can do are make your Eidolon large and getting it energy attacks for +1d6 damage to all your natural attacks. Large comes next level, but you want Energy now.

Ignore the advice about damage stacking for pincers - having four claws is easy enough (especially for bipeds!) - they are only a damage step behind, but can be enhanced by rend for effectively a full extra attack with a seriously good chance of hitting (2/4 claws need to hit), and that overcomes any advantage the pincers get.

Decide whether you want a weapon or not. Both ways can work. I favour not - but I'm a cheapskate and my Eidolon isn't primarily for combat. My general advice would be not until you've got multiattack - at -2 to hit things work differently.

But the biggest place you need help isn't the Eidolon, it's the spell list. Lesser Restore Eidolon is situational and weak - there's a place for healing your Eidolon, but clerics restore at full strength. And you've missed that Summoners get one of the best buffs in the game (Haste) discounted from a third to a second level spell. Haste counts as Better/Stronger, Faster. I've also written a spell guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VAc_eoV_uwQoRjxgaofIGyPcdwLgaCzVJbjynN3ONao/edit#) although it's geared towards non-combatant Eidolons.

I suspect one thing you're doing is underrating how effective your summon monster is (I have a guide to that too (https://docs.google.com/document/d/16dZ5SBQMS1Yi6531tXOkKE_rmXEwn4VFacOEQKiHA5E/edit#heading=h.qw1e6nm2iq5k), but that's a book-keeping intensive rabbit hole).

[Snowbluff]

NINJAS!
Good sir! :smalltongue:


I was going to argue with you here and link to a FAQ, but I cannot now find said FAQ...maybe I'm going crazy...maybe I'm already there...
Yeah, i wish I knew the answer.

Anyway, as far as having claws and hooves go, you can only have 1 set of each on your legs.

[Scosu]

Huge thanks to EVERYONE!

I've got a LOT of information, and will not be responding to each posting just yet - but it is really appreciated.

I'm going to let my mind think over things (that will be a first - usually it's act first, think during the trial after the arrest!)

Again, thank you!

[grarrrg]

Ignore the advice about damage stacking for pincers
That wasn't advice for this build, that was me responding to "why bother with Secondary attacks at all?".
It was part of the examples.


Decide whether you want a weapon or not. Both ways can work. I favour not - but I'm a cheapskate and my Eidolon isn't primarily for combat. My general advice would be not until you've got multiattack - at -2 to hit things work differently.

I think he intends to _carry_ a weapon, but only use it in cases where the monster has DR his Naturals cannot get through, such as this:

I got the wind knocked out of my sails last night facing against DR10 / Good-Silver which Red Lion could do nearly-nothing against.
Definitely get an Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists) though.
If the Enhancement Bonus on the amulet is high enough, it can let you bypass (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Overcoming-DR) 'metal'-based DR


Yeah, i wish I knew the answer.

I found it a few posts up, I labeled the link like this: Fount it! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks) followed by the relevant quote that says something along the lines of "although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam"
:smalltongue: