Over his dead body

[SavageWombat]

Does anybody else think that Durkula's going to have to be the one that does Belkar in? It seems like a logical direction for the story arc to me.

[Keltest]

I think its one of several possible and equally (un)likely fates for Belkar.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm certainly seeing great conflict between them, one that potentially turns into a physical conflict. If it does, then it seems likely Belkar will lose.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I certainly got that vibe from 953. Belkar doesn’t trust Durkula, and he’s not shy about expressing this distrust. I’m just curious as to who will throw the first strike.

[Angelalex242]

Ya know, it didn't last very long, but Belkar HAS already died. Very briefly, but he has. There were Xs in his eyes.

Why does anyone think he's going to die again? The prophecy is ALREADY fulfilled.

[Tiiba]

He took breaths after that.

[factotum]

Ya know, it didn't last very long, but Belkar HAS already died. Very briefly, but he has. There were Xs in his eyes.

Why does anyone think he's going to die again? The prophecy is ALREADY fulfilled.

Firstly, when did that happen? Secondly, the prophecy not only specified "last breath--EVER" as Tiiba just pointed out, it also said that he "wasn't long for this world" and "should savour his next birthday cake", neither of which your explanation cover.

[Angelalex242]

Never mind, it was the Phantasm in Girard's pyramid.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html

[Emperordaniel]

Never mind, it was the Phantasm in Girard's pyramid.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html

I strongly doubt any of the Oracle's prophecies - whether it's Elan's "Happy Ending" prophecy or Belkar's "Last Breath Ever" prophecy - refer to what took place in Girard's Microcosm illusion.

I mean, it could turn out that way, but I wouldn't bet on it myself.

[Angelalex242]

Well, Haley's lucky Elan was promised a happy ending, as any ending without her in his life couldn't qualify as happy.

However, because he said 'for YOU, yes', the other 4 party members may be significantly worse off.

[Ron Miel]

No, I think the other way around. Belkar will destroy fake Durkon to save the real one.

[KillianHawkeye]

Does anybody else think that Durkula's going to have to be the one that does Belkar in? It seems like a logical direction for the story arc to me.

I'm envisioning a scenario in which Belkar is put into a life-threatening situation and Roy orders Durkon to save him (or Durkon is simply the only one within reach) and, rather than doing it, he puts on his evil grin and leaves him to die or pushes him over the edge or whatever (much like Scar and Mufasa in The Lion King).

[dtilque]

Never mind, it was the Phantasm in Girard's pyramid.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html

I thought you meant the X's here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, Haley's lucky Elan was promised a happy ending, as any ending without her in his life couldn't qualify as happy.

However, because he said 'for YOU, yes', the other 4 party members may be significantly worse off.

What is happy for Elan is a pretty unclear term. I find it quite likely that Elan would be unhappy were other members of the Order to die. However, his story could still have a happy ending, in the end.

[MilesBeyond]

Elan's prophecy has already been fulfilled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html)

[ORione]

Elan's prophecy has already been fulfilled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html)

Yeah, I'm sure that's what the Oracle meant.

[MilesBeyond]

Yeah, I'm sure that's what the Oracle meant.

True happiness comes from the simple pleasures.

[ORione]

True happiness comes from the simple pleasures.

Elan didn't ask if he'd have a happy ending, though. He asked if the story would have a happy ending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). The story hasn't ended yet.

[Fitzclowningham]

Durkon may be the one to kill him, but I don't think Belkar is going to start the fight. After what happened with Malack, he should know he hasn't got a chance against Durkon.

[Ron Miel]

Elan didn't ask if he'd have a happy ending, though. He asked if the story would have a happy ending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). The story hasn't ended yet.

"There is no end, there's just the point where the storyteller stops talking."

[MilesBeyond]

Elan didn't ask if he'd have a happy ending, though. He asked if the story would have a happy ending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). The story hasn't ended yet.

I guess I should point out that I was joking, heh.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Durkon may be the one to kill him, but I don't think Belkar is going to start the fight. After what happened with Malack, he should know he hasn't got a chance against Durkon.

Belkar might think he will get lucky. Besides, he knew that Malack was stronger and still tried to take him on.

[Cavenskull]

Elan didn't ask if he'd have a happy ending, though. He asked if the story would have a happy ending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). The story hasn't ended yet.

Hey, it's not MilesBeyond's fault that Elan is too dain bramaged to recognize the difference. :smalltongue:

[Forum Explorer]

Durkon may be the one to kill him, but I don't think Belkar is going to start the fight. After what happened with Malack, he should know he hasn't got a chance against Durkon.

I like to think that Belkar will come in much more prepared for the second time he fights a vampire cleric.

Personally though? I think Vamp Durkon will be there at the final fight with Xykon. Belkar might be there as well. (Though that's less certain) Still I do think Belkar will be instrumental, perhaps even 1v1 taking down Vamp Durkon.

[Rougn]

No; I do not see this happening for the simple reason Durkon is lawful good. If Belkar died trying to killing the vampire possessing him the moment Durkon is free I see him trying to raise Belkar immediately. Just because Belkar died trying to help Durkon and thats not something he can let go. Therefore the Prophecy that Belkar would die and never take his last breath would not be fulfilled because Durkon would bring him back.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

No; I do not see this happening for the simple reason Durkon is lawful good. If Belkar died trying to killing the vampire possessing him the moment Durkon is free I see him trying to raise Belkar immediately. Just because Belkar died trying to help Durkon and thats not something he can let go. Therefore the Prophecy that Belkar would die and never take his last breath would not be fulfilled because Durkon would bring him back.

What happened if Belkar was destroyed in some way that makes him impossible to bring back? Or if Durkon isn't freed?

[Rougn]

What happened if Belkar was destroyed in some way that makes him impossible to bring back? Or if Durkon isn't freed?

Durkon never becoming free seems very unlikely. It appears the current plot revolves around them discovering and freeing him. The making it impossible for Belkar to return is the most likely option however the problem with that is again Durkon would feel guilty about killing Belkar and the only chance the Order has of taking out Team Evil is by growing levels. That means eventually Durkon will be able to cast True Resurrection which means they do not even need a body any more just some way of identifying Belkar. The only real option is either convincing Belkar not to return or for the vampire to capture Belkar's soul and somehow hide it from durkon, unlikely, or destroy it and at the moment im drawing a blank on spells that destroy souls.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Durkon never becoming free seems very unlikely. It appears the current plot revolves around them discovering and freeing him. The making it impossible for Belkar to return is the most likely option however the problem with that is again Durkon would feel guilty about killing Belkar and the only chance the Order has of taking out Team Evil is by growing levels. That means eventually Durkon will be able to cast True Resurrection which means they do not even need a body any more just some way of identifying Belkar. The only real option is either convincing Belkar not to return or for the vampire to capture Belkar's soul and somehow hide it from durkon, unlikely, or destroy it and at the moment im drawing a blank on spells that destroy souls.

Given the Giant's disliking for True Resurrection (and how low of a level Durkon will be when brought back) I do not think he will gain access to it. Also, if Belkar doesn't want return that could be another reason. A really unlikely reason for him staying dead would be if the High Priest of Hel somehow got his hands on a scroll of Soul Bind.

[Rougn]

Given the Giant's disliking for True Resurrection (and how low of a level Durkon will be when brought back) I do not think he will gain access to it. Also, if Belkar doesn't want return that could be another reason. A really unlikely reason for him staying dead would be if the High Priest of Hel somehow got his hands on a scroll of Soul Bind.

If I remember correctly durkon is currently the highest level so his return won't be so bad level wise; he is at least 13 right now so he is actually pretty close to being able to cast level 9 spells. It would be suicidal for them to take on team evil without him and v having access to 9th level spells. I know the Giant hates true resurrection and said he limits it and so far it appears he has done so nicely. So far only 1 cleric we know even has the level needed to cast it and that's redcloak. As for the soul bind scrolls. That would require him to do it without the order knowing and then putting it outside of durkon's reach. Rememer durkon sees everything the vampire does at the moment. All it takes is to break the gem and they are set.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If I remember correctly durkon is currently the highest level so his return won't be so bad level wise; he is at least 13 right now so he is actually pretty close to being able to cast level 9 spells. It would be suicidal for them to take on team evil without him and v having access to 9th level spells. I know the Giant hates true resurrection and said he limits it and so far it appears he has done so nicely. So far only 1 cleric we know even has the level needed to cast it and that's redcloak. As for the soul bind scrolls. That would require him to do it without the order knowing and then putting it outside of durkon's reach. Rememer durkon sees everything the vampire does at the moment. All it takes is to break the gem and they are set.

Durkon is 14 right now, if he is Resurrected he will become 13. That means he needs 4 more levels in order to get 9th level spells, which is a lot of XP to get, even though he will probably be facing challenges above his level. I don't see why having 9th level spells is necessary to take on Xykon; they have defeated him before without them. Finally, if the High Priest of Hel throws whatever he binds the soul into into the ocean, I doubt it would be very recoverable.

[Rougn]

Yes they beaten them once before because the story demanded it and Xykon was suprised. The reason why I say 17 at least is because if by some chance they get to just fight Xykon and redcloak by themselves it's a group of level 13/14 vs 2 epic level characters. They don't stand a chance against that Roy has his sword to by pass Xykon's DR but no one else has anything V had already shown even with 3 souls bonded to him he stands no chance even with backup. They need some levels on them and yes it's a lot of exp however as Giant said we are just now hitting the halfway point. As for dropping it into the ocean there are spells to retrieve items from the bottom of the ocean.

[factotum]

The reason why I say 17 at least is because if by some chance they get to just fight Xykon and redcloak by themselves it's a group of level 13/14 vs 2 epic level characters.

Redcloak isn't epic level--he only got 9th level spells (e.g. turned level 17) in strip #826, and it's pretty unlikely he's gained enough XP to put another three levels on since.

[Rougn]

Redcloak isn't epic level--he only got 9th level spells (e.g. turned level 17) in strip #826, and it's pretty unlikely he's gained enough XP to put another three levels on since.

Ok could have sworn he was higher level my mistake; but still a group of 13/14s taking on a level 17 (maybe 18 by the time they reach him) and an epic level lich have a near 0 chance of winning. Especially since no one is near optimized

[Emperordaniel]

Redcloak isn't epic level--he only got 9th level spells (e.g. turned level 17) in strip #826, and it's pretty unlikely he's gained enough XP to put another three levels on since.

Especially since, if I'm getting my math right, it was only a week or so ago in in-universe time that he leveled up.

[Rougn]

I realize at the moment it is unlikely he would epic level. Thought he was for some reason but it doesn't matter. However by the time the order reach him and Xykon there is a very good chance he will be epic level.

Let's not forget that Xykon by himself is a CR 28. He is a level 26 sorcerer that is also a lich.

[SavageWombat]

As has been said before, it's kind of silly to think this whole story is actually going to be resolved with melee combat between the two parties.

[Katuko]

As has been said before, it's kind of silly to think this whole story is actually going to be resolved with melee combat between the two parties.
Of course, the only things that matter are the spellcasters. :D

On a more serious note: I don't think the story will be resolved just from a direct combat encounter, but I do think Roy will at least get a hit in with that undead-slaying greatsword of his. Whether it will be a hit that removes Xykon's final few HP, fizzles an important spell, or otherwise disrupts the sorcerer's actions I don't know. I just have a gut feeling that Roy will strike to great effect - and with glorious green fire - at some point during the confrontation, even if the actual plot is resolved through entirely other means.

He could even have to strike down the High Priest of Hel with it, if that guy starts meddling in the ritual affairs.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ok could have sworn he was higher level my mistake; but still a group of 13/14s taking on a level 17 (maybe 18 by the time they reach him) and an epic level lich have a near 0 chance of winning. Especially since no one is near optimized

Actually, most of the Order is around 16/15 and it's just Durkon who falls a little bit behind (especially with his LA) at 14.

However, in the end I think the exact level of the character matters less than other things (though they are sure to mature in both level and character as a result of those things). When it comes to a final showdown, I doubt it will be toe-to-toe, or resolved because they are now equals in power. When you look at many fantasy stories, the epic showdown is often an uneven fight, but the protagonist wins in the end.

[factotum]

Actually, most of the Order is around 16/15 and it's just Durkon who falls a little bit behind (especially with his LA) at 14.

I doubt Durkon's LA will have made much difference in the short time he's been a vampire--pretty much everyone they've defeated since have been low-level mooks, so only Tarquin & Co. would have earned them any real XP.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I doubt Durkon's LA will have made much difference in the short time he's been a vampire--pretty much everyone they've defeated since have been low-level mooks, so only Tarquin & Co. would have earned them any real XP.

I meant to say that he would be staying behind the rest of the Order, in all probability. Sorry for my unclear phrasing there.

[Bitzer]

No; I do not see this happening for the simple reason Durkon is lawful good. If Belkar died trying to killing the vampire possessing him the moment Durkon is free I see him trying to raise Belkar immediately. Just because Belkar died trying to help Durkon and thats not something he can let go. Therefore the Prophecy that Belkar would die and never take his last breath would not be fulfilled because Durkon would bring him back.

I'm rather inexperienced with DnD, but even if Belkar does destroy HPoH and die in the attempt, will that automatically revive Durkon? My understanding is that if the vampire is destroyed, Durkon is only free to go to the afterlife and still has to be resurrected. So Belkar could destroy the HPoH (or attempt to), die, and fulfill his prophecy.

[Rougn]

I'm rather inexperienced with DnD, but even if Belkar does destroy HPoH and die in the attempt, will that automatically revive Durkon? My understanding is that if the vampire is destroyed, Durkon is only free to go to the afterlife and still has to be resurrected. So Belkar could destroy the HPoH (or attempt to), die, and fulfill his prophecy.

Yes; Durkon is not automatically resurrected however Roy as already stated he wants regular Durkon back. Not to mention the team can not afford to lose 2 of their members they will most likely ask Hinjo's help in raising Durkon maybe not Belkar because in Celestia Roy mentioned soon he wont be is problem so its clear Roy is not interested in raising Belkar. Durkon would raise someone who died for him.

[Forum Explorer]

Hold up a second. Once Durkon is dead they need to rez him first in order to bring him back. If Belkar dies killing Durkon, then what are the odds that they'll bring the body back with them? Plus remember that Durkon might choose to stay dead, particularly if they defeat Xykon first.

[factotum]

Hold up a second. Once Durkon is dead they need to rez him first in order to bring him back. If Belkar dies killing Durkon, then what are the odds that they'll bring the body back with them? Plus remember that Durkon might choose to stay dead, particularly if they defeat Xykon first.

:smallconfused: OK, I'm totally confused by that. What does Belkar dying while killing Durkon have to do with whether the Order bring the body with them or not? Why would Durkon choose to stay dead, even if Xykon had been defeated? He's got hundreds of years of life in front of him, after all, and I'm sure he'd want to do as much good as possible on the material plane before heading on for his reward.

[Forum Explorer]

:smallconfused: OK, I'm totally confused by that. What does Belkar dying while killing Durkon have to do with whether the Order bring the body with them or not? Why would Durkon choose to stay dead, even if Xykon had been defeated? He's got hundreds of years of life in front of him, after all, and I'm sure he'd want to do as much good as possible on the material plane before heading on for his reward.

Oh, if Durkon is dead and Belkar is dead I don't think the rest of the Order will bring him (Belkar) along, particularly if Xykon had been defeated. As for Durkon, he might choose to stay dead because he already has some strange ideas about the importance of burial and his duty.

[factotum]

It's exactly because of his devotion to duty that I think he'd come back--you're talking about a guy who voluntarily exiled himself from his homeland for more than 20 years because he believed it was his duty to do so, after all. Staying dead would not be following his duty, it would be avoiding it if anything.

As for the other point, I thought you were talking about Durkon's body in your first post, not Belkar's--it's a little ambiguous.

[Prinygod]

I predict that Belkar will be come a vampire (they don't breath right? and i don't think vampires are so keen on cake). And if there is a possessing spirit, it will show it in a corner of Belkar's head, laying in the fetal position repeating "halflings are suppose to be jolly" over and over

[factotum]

I predict that Belkar will be come a vampire (they don't breath right? and i don't think vampires are so keen on cake).

And this vampire will presumably travel to another plane in order to fulfil the "not long for this world" prophecy?

[Lombard]

Does anybody else think that Durkula's going to have to be the one that does Belkar in? It seems like a logical direction for the story arc to me.

Too many vague ideas to really spell out here, but I just have this suspicion that it's gonna be Roy. :roy:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

And this vampire will presumably travel to another plane in order to fulfil the "not long for this world" prophecy?

I wonder if it would make sense for a vampire to fund their IRA. If so, that's another strike against the vampire theory.

[Khay]

Too many vague ideas to really spell out here, but I just have this suspicion that it's gonna be Roy. :roy:

High Priest of Hel performs some act of betrayal, Belkar catches him, they fight, Belkar barely manages to win. Roy only sees Belkar's reaction and not the HPoH's initial act, gives a variant of the asset/liability speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html) and executes Belkar. Just to have it all be as depressing as possible.

[Terrador]

Two cents on Belkar v. HPoH: even before Durkon had DR and all sorts of other undead goodies, Durkon has consistently defeated Belkar. At Azure City, Durkon and Vaarsuvius took him down without any real trouble--it wasn't even given the gravity of a combat. In Girard's Pyramid, Durkon took him down with just one spell slot, even if he burned three overall. Outside it, HPoH no-selled a full round of attacks, though Belkar might develop enough to actually prepare before he punches HPoH's one-way ticket to Stabbytown.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Two cents on Belkar v. HPoH: even before Durkon had DR and all sorts of other undead goodies, Durkon has consistently defeated Belkar. At Azure City, Durkon and Vaarsuvius took him down without any real trouble--it wasn't even given the gravity of a combat. In Girard's Pyramid, Durkon took him down with just one spell slot, even if he burned three overall. Outside it, HPoH no-selled a full round of attacks, though Belkar might develop enough to actually prepare before he punches HPoH's one-way ticket to Stabbytown.

Absolutely agree with this. And now, as a vampire he can dominate others, he has fast healing, can turn into gaseous form, has natural armor, has more HP, has increased ability scores, and has several other useful Special Attacks and Qualities. In short, he is very hard to defeat.