Help me with my Bard...er Warlord, please.

[killer_monk]

First of all, I'd like to say "hello" to everyone on here. This is my first visit to this sub-forum, and I hope it won't be my last. Okay, now to business.

I'm fairly new to 4E. I've owned the books for awhile, but am just now getting around to playing it. I've read the rules, and am mostly looking for more experienced player's advice.

So I came here in hopes you might all teach me how to play correctly, eventually DM 4E correctly, and of course how to trick out my Bard.

I am really wanting to play a Dragonborn.

The stats everyone will have to work with is:

16/16/14/14/12/10

I've set up my stats as follows:

Strength: 18
Dexterity: 14
Constitution: 14
Charisma: 18
Wisdom: 10
Intelligence: 12

These are completely flexible, and i will change them if requested.

I'm going with Frost as my breath weapon, and would love any good ice themed bard powers.

I'd also like to become the party healer. The stronger my heals the better. The only thing i don't want to do is multiclass into Cleric, or another divine class. (We have a paladin in the group, and i don't want to step on his holy toes.:smallbiggrin:)

I am okay with multiclassing into a martial, primal or arcane class though. I was actually considering Seeker. Although I think it may be too much for my wisdom. Hybridization of classes is also okay, though I'd prefer to stick with Bard.

I was wanting to use a Greataxe, but i can use a Falchion, Waraxe, Greatsword or even a Halberd. I'd take weapon proficiency to use these, if recommended. I really want to hunker down in melee, as that's where I've always felt comfortable learning a new system.

At the same time, using a Greatbow also looks pretty sweet. (i may save that weapon for if i ever make a Seeker though. Hehe.)

All in all it's a mostly open build. Stats are flexible, feats are open and powers are up for debate.

I don't have access to the Skald bard. I have PHB, PHB2, PHB3, mordenkainen's magical emporium and Martial Prowess. If i really like the system I'll pick up Arcane Prowess and Adventurer's Vault.

Do you guys have any other books you'd consider necessary?

[killer_monk]

I also want to know if you guys use any Houserules you'd consider mandatory?

And I have a question about critical hits: say I use a power that does 4[W] damage, and I'm a 21st Level Greataxe wielder who critical hits with his +5 Greataxe (+1d10 per +1).

Is it effectively 8[W] + 5d10 + misc, or does the 4x get multiplied by 4. Ending with 16[W] + 5d10 + misc?

Are the d10s maximized from the critical as well? What about sneak attack dice?

I think I can guess how it's done, but I'd rather be 100% certain.

[GPuzzle]

Well, pick up a Swordmage Multiclass, put those +2 to Con instead of to Strength to get an 18 Constitution, be a Valorous Bard, pick up a Frost Longsword (hint: you're a Leader, you want to hit, +3 to hit is great), take Lasting Frost and Wintertouched and take War Chanter as your PP.

You'll be set for life, I tell you.

[Excession]

The stats everyone will have to work with is:

16/16/14/14/12/10

I've set up my stats as follows:

Strength: 18
Dexterity: 14
Constitution: 14
Charisma: 18
Wisdom: 10
Intelligence: 12

These are completely flexible, and i will change them if requested.


Strength is of little use to a Bard. It boosts your Melee Basic Attack (MBA), which you will use for charging and opportunity attacks, but you have at-will weapon attacks that are all "Cha vs. AC". You'll use your at-wills far far more than your MBA. I would recommend dropping your strength to boost the secondary stat that is defined by the type of Bard you are.

If you wanted to put a high strength score to use, you might consider switching to a Warlord. A Str/Cha Warlord can have fluff and character concept very similar to a Bard.


I'd also like to become the party healer. The stronger my heals the better. The only thing i don't want to do is multiclass into Cleric, or another divine class. (We have a paladin in the group, and i don't want to step on his holy toes.:smallbiggrin:)

Any type of Bard can be a good healer IMO. Not to the levels of a Cleric maybe, but still good. I would recommend getting the feat Improved Majestic Word early, and picking powers that have healing riders. At low levels, War Song Strike, Stirring Shout, and Song of Conquest for example. Just don't choose a melee power if you expect to be at range all the time, or a ranged weapon power if you're always carrying an implement, or vis versa.

If you get to paragon tier, the Summer Rhymer paragon path provides another direct boost to all your healing.


I was wanting to use a Greataxe, but i can use a Falchion, Waraxe, Greatsword or even a Halberd. I'd take weapon proficiency to use these, if recommended. I really want to hunker down in melee, as that's where I've always felt comfortable learning a new system.

At the same time, using a Greatbow also looks pretty sweet. (i may save that weapon for if i ever make a Seeker though. Hehe.)

For a melee Bard, I would recommend a longsword, rapier, or bastard sword. Hitting is more important for a leader than an extra die size in damage. Also unlike martial classes you will have very few powers (or probably feats) that boost a particular weapon type. For reach though, which is sometimes useful, a Greatspear is the best option. Bards do get ranged weapon powers, mostly in Arcana Power, so they can use a greatbow or longbow to good effect with the right build. Juggling multiple weapons in and out of sheaths is untidy at times, but there are items, feats, and even familiars that can help with that. While it's best to focus on one combat type (melee weapon, ranged implement, or ranged weapon), Bards can do more than one.

[Laserlight]

I'll let others tackle the character optimization; I'll point you to Surrealistik's Essential 4e House Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?191041-4E-Essential-House-Rules&highlight=house%20rules)

[NecroRebel]

And I have a question about critical hits: say I use a power that does 4[W] damage, and I'm a 21st Level Greataxe wielder who critical hits with his +5 Greataxe (+1d10 per +1).

Is it effectively 8[W] + 5d10 + misc, or does the 4x get multiplied by 4. Ending with 16[W] + 5d10 + misc?

No. No and no, in fact.

A power that deals 4[W] damage with a +5 Greataxe will, on a critical hit, deal 48 damage from 4[W] with a d12 weapon, +3d12 from the Greataxe's High Crit property at level 21 (High Crit is +1[W] per tier, not maximized by the crit), +5d10 from the axe's "+1d10 per +" critical property, + whatever static damage bonuses you have. Nothing is ever multiplied by a critical hit to my knowledge, and certainly not as a standard thing.

So, that power with that axe would deal 48+5d10+3d12+statics (statics including the enhancement bonus).


Are the d10s maximized from the critical as well? What about sneak attack dice?

Generally, things that you would roll if you didn't get a critical are maximized, while things that you wouldn't roll if you didn't get a critical aren't. So the d10s aren't, while sneak attack dice would be.

[Kurald Galain]

Do you guys have any other books you'd consider necessary?

For a bard, I'd go with PHB2 (obviously) and Arcane Power; I don't think any other books are necessary. If your DM lets you pick your own magic items and you get a lot of those, Adventurer's Vault may be nice to have (then again, you already have Mordy's book so you may want to start from that).

[Inevitability]

It isn't really a book, but dragon 383 has what is considered the best Bard at-will if your party is right.

Staggering note is basically damage, movement and an ally gets to attack the target on top of that. It is more fit for implement-using bards though.

[GPuzzle]

Sword as implement.

Bam, solved that.

[killer_monk]

Well, pick up a Swordmage Multiclass, put those +2 to Con instead of to Strength to get an 18 Constitution, be a Valorous Bard, pick up a Frost Longsword (hint: you're a Leader, you want to hit, +3 to hit is great), take Lasting Frost and Wintertouched and take War Chanter as your PP.

You'll be set for life, I tell you.

So, frostcheese? :smallbiggrin:

But unfortunately I can't dip into Swordmage. Since I don't have the FRPG. And I don't get my flex stat in constitution as a Dragonborn. It's just the standard array.

I'd really like to go with frostcheese though, but at the same time i have to have a Songblade or something similar for casting implement powers.

@NecroRebel, thanks for explaining it! Though that is still a ton of damage.

@Excession, how does Cha vs AC work? Is it just my charisma on my to hit instead of my strength?

And are Bards really that limited in terms of what weapons they can use? I'd use a bastard sword, but all my characters seem to end up using one, so i thought I'd change it up with a different weapon.

What about thing like Falchions, Fullblades, Greatswords etc?

I'd love to dip into a striker class for some more damage. We're going to be a REALLY small party (just 3 PCs), so everyone needs to be contributing a pretty decent amount of damage. But which striker class is best in terms of synergy with the bard, while still doing huge damage? I thought maybe sorcerer or warlock? Though I'd prefer a martial class (since I have Martial Prowess.)

I considered playing a Warlord, but i wanted the Bard's versatility. I probably would've taken Swordmage outright if I'd had it available.

@Laserlight, thanks for the Houserules!

@Direstirge, i don't have the issue of dragon. I can try in convincing the DM, but he doesn't like using Dragon's material too much.

[Inevitability]

If you want damage while being a leader, do not try to deal it yourself.

Instead, give others more attacks. With Staggering Note gone, that means you'll have to aim for encounter and daily powers that give others stronger attacks, like Blunder.

Similarly, don't pick a bigger weapon yourself. That's not your job.

And dragonborn do get to pick a bonus to constitution. This (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/397_Racial_Ability_Bonuses.pdf) document gives all races new ability score options. If your DM doesn't accept it because it's dragon, the errata (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdatePH.pdf) for the PHB also says it.

[LtPowers]

I considered playing a Warlord, but i wanted the Bard's versatility.

Well there's your problem. The price you pay for the Bard's versatility (compared to Warlord) is losing access to the honking big melee weapons and heavy armor. You can theoretically get both but at the cost of heavy feat investment.

That's the thing about 4e; it's balanced, so you actually do have to consider trade-offs. You have to decide what's more important to you: versatility or sheer martial prowess?

That said, so long as you keep Bard as your main class, that 18 STR is an enormous waste. Especially if you can't switch your racial mod to CON, put a 16 in CON or INT and let your racial mod bring your STR up to 14. That's high enough for anything you could possibly want STR for as a Bard (namely, multiclass feats).


Powers &8^]

[killer_monk]

Well there's your problem. The price you pay for the Bard's versatility (compared to Warlord) is losing access to the honking big melee weapons and heavy armor. You can theoretically get both but at the cost of heavy feat investment.

That's the thing about 4e; it's balanced, so you actually do have to consider trade-offs. You have to decide what's more important to you: versatility or sheer martial prowess?

That said, so long as you keep Bard as your main class, that 18 STR is an enormous waste. Especially if you can't switch your racial mod to CON, put a 16 in CON or INT and let your racial mod bring your STR up to 14. That's high enough for anything you could possibly want STR for as a Bard (namely, multiclass feats).


Powers &8^]

Speaking of versatility. Which classes would be the most beneficial for me to multiclass into? Since that's my big thing, how many classes should I be looking to multiclass into?

Since the flex stat is errata, it's being allowed now. Thanks to Dire Stirge for that!

So what stats would you guys take with my array?

Also, what Feats would you consider mandatory? Or even just highly beneficial?

Any paragon paths besides summer rhymer you'd all recommend?

I looked at the Fatesinger epic destiny and...wow. Am I just seeing potential that isn't there, or is it actually as good as I think it is?

When using, say, a Frost Longsword. Does it change all my damage types to Frost? Or just damage specifically from the longsword?

[Inevitability]

Happy to help with the flex stats!

RE: Multiclass

The classes to multiclass into depend on what kind of build you are making, but multiclass feats are good enough to justify taking three or more. Just make sure you get your build-essential feats first.

RE: Fatesinger

You are right, it is a pretty good ED. It is somewhat weakened by the lack of an ability score boost, though.

RE: Feats

-Any expertise feat. (Battle song expertise is considered best for bards)
-Superior Will.
-Improved Defenses

Also, if you are going melee, want to use implement attacks, and can't multiclass swordmage, Arcane Implement Proficiency.

These are the mandatory feats, the others depend on your build.

RE: Longsword

If you are using the longsword as a weapon, all your weapon powers deal cold damage.
If you are also using it as an implement, your implement powers will do cold damage also.

That's it. So if you are a dragonborn with a fire breath, the weapon won't make your breath cold.

[killer_monk]

Happy to help with the flex stats!

RE: Multiclass

The classes to multiclass into depend on what kind of build you are making, but multiclass feats are good enough to justify taking three or more. Just make sure you get your build-essential feats first.

RE: Fatesinger

You are right, it is a pretty good ED. It is somewhat weakened by the lack of an ability score boost, though.

RE: Feats

-Any expertise feat. (Battle song expertise is considered best for bards)
-Superior Will.
-Improved Defenses

Also, if you are going melee, want to use implement attacks, and can't multiclass swordmage, Arcane Implement Proficiency.

These are the mandatory feats, the others depend on your build.

RE: Longsword

If you are using the longsword as a weapon, all your weapon powers deal cold damage.
If you are also using it as an implement, your implement powers will do cold damage also.

That's it. So if you are a dragonborn with a fire breath, the weapon won't make your breath cold.

I wanted to go with a Striker multiclass. Sorcerer was my first thought, since the Charisma synergy would be amazing. But then warlock came to mind.

I wouldn't be opposed to any other multi class suggestions either. Even controllers or another Leader. I'll leave Defending to someone else though.

Do EDs normally have ability score boosts?

What implement should I be choosing with Arcane Implement Proficiency? Unless you can count a heavy blade as an implement?

(could you also cite the sources of Arcane Implement Proficiency and Battle Song Expertise?)

And thanks for the Frost sword clarification and Feat recommendations.

[Inevitability]

To help you decide on your striker choice, sorcerers are best at spreading out damage over large area's. (like blasty wizards), while warlocks are closer to bards in abilties. Also, the sorc multiclass requires either strength or dexterity if I remember correctly, which you haven't got.

Battle song expertise is from dragon magazine 402.
AIP is from Arcane Power.

Yes, ED's normally have ability score boosts.

You can choose heavy blades with AIP, because swordmages can use them too. This let's you copy the most important thing from being a swordmage without having to be one.

[killer_monk]

To help you decide on your striker choice, sorcerers are best at spreading out damage over large area's. (like blasty wizards), while warlocks are closer to bards in abilties. Also, the sorc multiclass requires either strength or dexterity if I remember correctly, which you haven't got.

Battle song expertise is from dragon magazine 402.
AIP is from Arcane Power.

Yes, ED's normally have ability score boosts.

You can choose heavy blades with AIP, because swordmages can use them too. This let's you copy the most important thing from being a swordmage without having to be one.

Is there any way to get sneak attack through multi class feats? Because that with Frostcheese would really amp my damage. Or maybe should multiclass into something else? I'm just trying to figure out my options right now.

One of the other EDs that made me wonder was Invincible Mind. I effectively gives unlimited PP and you can't die until you run out of healing surges. In addition, you pretty much always go first. Any thoughts?

Alright. I'll have to pick Arcane power up from my local Half Price whenever I get a chance.

Are there any other spectacular paragon paths or epic destinies for Bards?

And thanks for the citations, dire Stirge. Every little bit really helps me out!

[Inevitability]

(Most of this comes from the bard handbook (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2402306))

-Sneak attack can be gained once/encounter with the 'sneak of shadows' feat. Remember it only works with a hand crossbow, shortbow, light blade, or sling.

-Do pick up arcane power. It includes lots of nice things for bards, including a bow-based route. Pretty interesting IMO.

-Invincible Mind is good for battleminds and ardents and nice for other psionic classes, but I wouldn't recommend it to a bard.

-For Bard PP's:

Life Singer (Arcane Power) is great if you go down a more pacifistic route.
If you are a valorous bard, pick up War Chanter (PHB2). First lesson of optimizing bards.
If you dip in a lot of arcane classes, Resourceful Magican (Dragon Magazine 376) lets you gain lots of powers.

-Bard ED's:

Demigod, straight from the PHB, is a strong ED. Solid all around, many great abilities. It has been errata'ed, though.
Sage of the Ages (Arcane Power) has the incredible ability to let you reroll a 1d20 every turn. From level 24 on.
Eternal Seeker (PHB) fits with your 'dabbler' theme, so maybe check it out too.

[killer_monk]

(Most of this comes from the bard handbook (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2402306))

-Sneak attack can be gained once/encounter with the 'sneak of shadows' feat. Remember it only works with a hand crossbow, shortbow, light blade, or sling.

-Do pick up arcane power. It includes lots of nice things for bards, including a bow-based route. Pretty interesting IMO.

-Invincible Mind is good for battleminds and ardents and nice for other psionic classes, but I wouldn't recommend it to a bard.

-For Bard PP's:

Life Singer (Arcane Power) is great if you go down a more pacifistic route.
If you are a valorous bard, pick up War Chanter (PHB2). First lesson of optimizing bards.
If you dip in a lot of arcane classes, Resourceful Magican (Dragon Magazine 376) lets you gain lots of powers.

-Bard ED's:

Demigod, straight from the PHB, is a strong ED. Solid all around, many great abilities. It has been errata'ed, though.
Sage of the Ages (Arcane Power) has the incredible ability to let you reroll a 1d20 every turn. From level 24 on.
Eternal Seeker (PHB) fits with your 'dabbler' theme, so maybe check it out too.

Probably going to get Martial Power 2 if i can.

I think I'm going to go with Warlord, so I don't want to completely dump Strength. Maybe a 14-16?

War Chanter is what I'll most likely go with, since I'm shooting for a Valorous Bard. I may dip into Swordmage too, if i ever get a FRPG.

So my stats should look like this?

Strength: 14
Dexterity: 14
Constitution: 18
Charisma: 18
Wisdom: 10
Intelligence: 12


Additionally, I've decided on a character name. Though a backstory is still in order...

[Inevitability]

The stats seem good enough for me. I'd swap intelligence and dexterity, though. Getting stronger 'side effects' on your powers seems stronger than +1 initiative to me. Especially when you consider the fact that only one of the dexterity-based skills is on the bard's list, while all the intelligence-based once can be found there.

[GPuzzle]

You're a Leader.

Going first is nearly an obligation.

[Laserlight]

I think I'm going to go with Warlord...[snip] I may dip into Swordmage too, if i ever get a FRPG.


Bear in mind, this is not like 3.5 where you switch classes every couple of levels to get your build.

[killer_monk]

I'll keep my initiative higher for now. This will also help me if I ever decide to dip for ranged bard abilities.

Warlord is going to put me in a bad way for Feats. I've heard there were several Feat taxes that need Houserules to just give to players? What are these?

For a Melee Bard, is Scale or Chain better? Are the Feats that give you a "mastery" of these worth it?

And I'd like to thank everyone who has commented so far! Thanks!

[Inevitability]

I'll keep my initiative higher for now. This will also help me if I ever decide to dip for ranged bard abilities.

Warlord is going to put me in a bad way for Feats. I've heard there were several Feat taxes that need Houserules to just give to players? What are these?

For a Melee Bard, is Scale or Chain better? Are the Feats that give you a "mastery" of these worth it?


Higher initiative works too.

The 'feat taxes' are:

-An expertise feat
-The defense-bolstering feats
-Anything else your class may need to function properly. (Like Intelligent Blademaster for a swordmage)

I won't recommend putting feats in armor proficiency, but for a melee bard, it may be nice later on, when you are less feat-starved. I still wouldn't pick it, though.

[killer_monk]

Higher initiative works too.

The 'feat taxes' are:

-An expertise feat
-The defense-bolstering feats
-Anything else your class may need to function properly. (Like Intelligent Blademaster for a swordmage)

I won't recommend putting feats in armor proficiency, but for a melee bard, it may be nice later on, when you are less feat-starved. I still wouldn't pick it, though.

How do you handle those Feat Taxes in your games? Do you use any Houserules or use them as is? And how does that work out for your group?

Won't Frostcheese eventually kind of lose it's luster? It's only +2 to hit and +5 damage. Does that stay relevant for very long? If not, I could simply retrain those into my Scale Armor Feats.


I've been looking through a ton of Paragon Paths and was wondering how Dreadnought would work for me? It's a Con/Str Paragon, but I've got the Constitution to pull it off. Would it be worth taking over War Chanter?

It'd make me a nigh invincible bastion of leadership, and with Fatesinger it'd only get better. The only issue is that it's not a Heavy Blade supported Paragon.

Any thoughts on the matter?

[GPuzzle]

How do you handle those Feat Taxes in your games? Do you use any Houserules or use them as is? And how does that work out for your group?

Won't Frostcheese eventually kind of lose it's luster? It's only +2 to hit and +5 damage. Does that stay relevant for very long? If not, I could simply retrain those into my Scale Armor Feats.


I've been looking through a ton of Paragon Paths and was wondering how Dreadnought would work for me? It's a Con/Str Paragon, but I've got the Constitution to pull it off. Would it be worth taking over War Chanter?

It'd make me a nigh invincible bastion of leadership, and with Fatesinger it'd only get better. The only issue is that it's not a Heavy Blade supported Paragon.

Any thoughts on the matter?

Some people do houserule it, LFR doesn't.

Frostchesse sets up vulnerability - which means that your allies can take advantage of that.

Dreadnought vs War Chanter?

War Chanter. No, seriously.

The Action Point feature. +Con to hit and to damage. There's a reason why it's so great. It can wreck encounters before they even begin.

The Encounter Power. Hit or miss, double attack with a +Con to hit and to damage buff to an ally. Untyped buff, by the way, so it stacks with everything else.

The L16 feature. Use two Action Points an encounter. No round restrictions. You know that its power level meets some Epic Destiny features, right?

The Daily Power. Hit, your ally uses an encounter power and automatically hits. Miss, uses an at-will and it automatically hits. It's really freaking awesome.

It's a path made of win.

Fatesinger... I'd recommend Destined Scion, actually. Or perhaps Warmaster if you multiclass Warlord (you should, in the Martial Power 2, you have to take the Bravura Leader and Resourceful Leader feats - they're really freaking great). It's a decent Paragon Path, but doesn't give +2 to one stat or the encounter-wrecking capabilities of Warmaster.

[Inevitability]

Frostcheese is often used with multiple attack powers, like Twin Strike.
+5 damage may not be a lot, but how about +10 to damage? Or +25?

And, like GPuzzle said, take War Chanter.

[NecroRebel]

+5 damage is always significant, though less so at high epic than at early paragon just because you have so many other bonuses at that point. Still, even then your static damage bonus will probably be around +40-50, so another 5 damage is not ignorable.

+2 attack, however, is very strong at all levels. There just aren't terribly many +attack bonuses out there, and monster defenses increase very quickly, so that at all levels basic optimization only matches PC attack bonuses to NPC defenses. When you're hitting 55% of the time normally, and frostcheese increases that to 65%, you're getting quite a bit, and that will be what it does all the time. The attack math in 4e is quite tight, so every little bonus helps a lot.

[killer_monk]

Alright. So keep frostcheese and war Chanter.

What's LFR?

I'll also check Scale Armor later.

And I'll keep looking for EDs.

Anything anyone else would like to add? Any other recommendations on Feats, Powers, books, weapons, Rituals or armor?

[GPuzzle]

LFR means Living Forgotten Realms.

Well, books... Eberron's Player Guide, Arcane Power and some Dragon magazines.

No, seriously. If you're willing to go Half-Elf (hint: it's great, probably at the same level of Tiefling and Dragonborn, or even further), you can poach Magic Weapon (+1 to hit and +Con to damage at-will? AND IT STACKS WITH YOUR AP FEATURE?) to use it. Just remember, take Combat Virtuouso (It allows you to use Cha to-hit for your multiclassed powers and Dilletante power) too.

Besides, there are some things that Bards should multiclass into if they find the featspace:
-Shaman (needs Primal Power). Another ENCOUNTER heal? Nice. The Spirit and the Skil buff are great for Prescient Bards, too.
-Warlord (needs Martial Power 2). Allies gaining bonuses when they AP is always nice, and you qualify for those you want the most.
-Artificer (Eberron Player's Guide and some Dragon magazines). Valorous and Prescient want this. It adds buffs and some nice movement enabling that doesn't your move action to your repertoire of abilities.

[killer_monk]

LFR means Living Forgotten Realms.

Well, books... Eberron's Player Guide, Arcane Power and some Dragon magazines.

No, seriously. If you're willing to go Half-Elf (hint: it's great, probably at the same level of Tiefling and Dragonborn, or even further), you can poach Magic Weapon (+1 to hit and +Con to damage at-will? AND IT STACKS WITH YOUR AP FEATURE?) to use it. Just remember, take Combat Virtuouso (It allows you to use Cha to-hit for your multiclassed powers and Dilletante power) too.

Besides, there are some things that Bards should multiclass into if they find the featspace:
-Shaman (needs Primal Power). Another ENCOUNTER heal? Nice. The Spirit and the Skil buff are great for Prescient Bards, too.
-Warlord (needs Martial Power 2). Allies gaining bonuses when they AP is always nice, and you qualify for those you want the most.
-Artificer (Eberron Player's Guide and some Dragon magazines). Valorous and Prescient want this. It adds buffs and some nice movement enabling that doesn't your move action to your repertoire of abilities.

But what is Living Forgotten Realms? A specific rules set or something?

I'm probably not going to get primal power or the eborron player's guide for now. Although I may later.

I'll stay a Dragonborn. The reason I chose Bard. and Dragonborn where both for Roleplaying reasons, and I'm rather set on it. Though I do appreciate the recommendation.

Combat Virtuouso looks really good. The only prerequisite is to be a Bard, right?

[GPuzzle]

But what is Living Forgotten Realms? A specific rules set or something?

I'm probably not going to get primal power or the eborron player's guide for now. Although I may later.

I'll stay a Dragonborn. The reason I chose Bard. and Dragonborn where both for Roleplaying reasons, and I'm rather set on it. Though I do appreciate the recommendation.

Combat Virtuouso looks really good. The only prerequisite is to be a Bard, right?

LFR is a set of rules and a lot of fan-made adventures.

Honestly, though, you should get a D&D Insider subscription and print the character sheet, mainly due to having more options.

Combat Virtuoso is an heroic tier feat for the Bard, and it's in the Arcane Power book (quick tip: get it ASAP).

[killer_monk]

Okay. That makes sense.

How much is the average subscription and where can I sign up?

I usually just get a Notebook I write all my stats by hand in. I like it because I know I've done all the work for my characters. Makes them a lot more personal, ya know?

Combat Virtuouso is only for attacks to hit, right? And doesn't effect any of the damage or effect modifiers?

[GPuzzle]

Okay. That makes sense.

How much is the average subscription and where can I sign up?

I usually just get a Notebook I write all my stats by hand in. I like it because I know I've done all the work for my characters. Makes them a lot more personal, ya know?

Combat Virtuouso is only for attacks to hit, right? And doesn't effect any of the damage or effect modifiers?

At Wizards of the Coast's site. It's quite expensive, because you have to buy it on a single package, but in the end, it's like 5 or 6 bucks a month for a year.

Even then, I'd say it's worth getting for the sources.

Yup, Combat Virtuoso is only for attacks to hit. So, basically, Magic Weapon still deals Int damage and buffs +1 to hit and +Con/+Wis to damage.

[killer_monk]

At Wizards of the Coast's site. It's quite expensive, because you have to buy it on a single package, but in the end, it's like 5 or 6 bucks a month for a year.

Even then, I'd say it's worth getting for the sources.

Yup, Combat Virtuoso is only for attacks to hit. So, basically, Magic Weapon still deals Int damage and buffs +1 to hit and +Con/+Wis to damage.

What all do I actually get with it though? Just a magazine or something more?

So combat Virtuouso is a must have. Isn't there a feat that gives me double the multiclass?

And thanks for the help guys! I'll start playing this character tomorrow, so we'll see how it all turns out!

[GPuzzle]

What all do I actually get with it though? Just a magazine or something more?

So combat Virtuouso is a must have. Isn't there a feat that gives me double the multiclass?

And thanks for the help guys! I'll start playing this character tomorrow, so we'll see how it all turns out!

You gain acess to all Dragon and Dungeon magazines, the Character Builder, full acess to the Compendium, the Adventure generator and the Monster Maker. Costs 70 dollars or so to buy for an year, but 10 for a month. At the long run, though, it's going from 10 dollars to 6 dollars a month.

You can only pick up Magic Weapon if you're a Half-Elf, since, you know, Dilletante.

Some other nifty stuff from Arcane Power:

-Multiclass Mastery - two MC feats of your choice. For free. Even if you've MC into Bard. Mandatory.

-Quickened Spellcasting - use an at-will as a minor action once per encounter. This one's grand.

-Arcane Implement Proficiency - use a weapliment. Great for other classes, you should MC to pick up an implement.

-Arcane Admixture - choose one power and one type of damage - congratulations, now that power has that keyword and deals that damage.

[Inevitability]

-Arcane Implement Proficiency - use a weapliment. Great for other classes, you should MC to pick up an implement.

I'd like to put a footnote here.
While GPuzzle is right in most cases with this one, in your case, it's good to pick up, the reason for this being that you can't multiclass swordmage. So if you need a weapliment, take this.

[killer_monk]

That's not too bad. I may sign up.

So how does someone play LFR?

I'll make sure to cherry pick the good ones! :smallwink:



Heavy blade is the only real option for weapliment, right?

[GPuzzle]

Light Blades too, and honestly, I'm more of a fan of Light Blades.

[killer_monk]

Light Blades too, and honestly, I'm more of a fan of Light Blades.

What are the main advantages?

And are the Arkhosian Sword Style feats any.good?

[GPuzzle]

Mainly due to the Expertise feat and Nimble Blade. They're better.

No, they're not.

[Inevitability]

Heavy blade is the only real option for weapliment, right?

No. Like GP said, there are Light Blades, but you also can use Shortbows, crossbows, some magic weapons, and monks can even use every weapon they are proficient with as an implement. (So elven monks wielding longbows in melee are an acceptable build).

[Kurald Galain]

That's not too bad. I may sign up.

So how does someone play LFR?
By finding a local group that plays it. However, WOTC withdrew support from LFR several years ago, so as a result it may no longer exist in your region (it doesn't in mine, for example).


Heavy blade is the only real option for weapliment, right?
Hardly. Polearm, bow, and bola are also interesting choices.

[Inevitability]

Now I remember the bola/net mage. Pushing + immobilizing lots of enemies with a simple Howling Wall? Or maybe creating fireballs that slow their targets?

That just makes me smile.

[GPuzzle]

Yeah, I'm still wondering how the guy did that. Although I've been cackling maniacally with Permastealth and trying to find a way to give my Stealth check to others to sneak the group behind enemy lines and slaughter the BBEG before he knows we're there.

[Echobeats]

At Wizards of the Coast's site. It's quite expensive, because you have to buy it on a single package, but in the end, it's like 5 or 6 bucks a month for a year.

Even then, I'd say it's worth getting for the sources.

The Character Builder has space for 20 characters. So your whole group can use it for about $1 a month each. And it makes character creation infinitely easier.

[killer_monk]

By finding a local group that plays it. However, WOTC withdrew support from LFR several years ago, so as a result it may no longer exist in your region (it doesn't in mine, for example).


Hardly. Polearm, bow, and bola are also interesting choices.

What exactly can you choose as a weapliment? Just the ones or mentioned or any weapon group?

And unfortunately my group got canceled yesterday on the count of a sick player. So i didn't get to use any of my neat stuff.

Although I have been considering switching to just being a Bravura Warlord now that I have Martial Power 2. Warlords seem to be worse healers though, and they don't have as many of the more flavourful powers.

[Inevitability]

What exactly can you choose as a weapliment? Just the ones or mentioned or any weapon group?

And unfortunately my group got canceled yesterday on the count of a sick player. So i didn't get to use any of my neat stuff.

Although I have been considering switching to just being a Bravura Warlord now that I have Martial Power 2. Warlords seem to be worse healers though, and they don't have as many of the more flavourful powers.

Whenever a feat/magic weapon/class feature says: 'You can use this-and-this weapon group as an implement', it is an weapliment. They are considered very good for two reasons.

-Classes that use both weapons and implements only need to buy a single weapon.
-Most stuff that applies to weapons now also applies to your implement attacks (I mentioned the bola mage a while back).

[Epinephrine]

Although I have been considering switching to just being a Bravura Warlord now that I have Martial Power 2. Warlords seem to be worse healers though, and they don't have as many of the more flavourful powers.

I wouldn't say that warlords are any worse as healers, really. They actually can gain an additional heal per encounter (paragon feat) which puts them ahead of the others, and you can select additional heals if needed - the point of the warlord is that since he helps offense you probably won't need much more healing.

In terms of flavour, I love the warlord. He's full of great tricks, rushing up to an enemy to pincer him with your hardest hitting melee guy; shouting a Powerful Warning so that your fighter can attack before the guy targeting him, and so on. It's not as magical a set of abilities, but there's nothing preventing it from being so, fluff-wise. A touch of magic in his speech, so that people find themselves suddenly a little more capable than they were, and willing to throw themselves into the combat. Other than the arcane keyword, there is little to differentiate a singing bard from a warlord shouting commands, just fluff it so that the warlord is singing and he's pretty much there.

[killer_monk]

Whenever a feat/magic weapon/class feature says: 'You can use this-and-this weapon group as an implement', it is an weapliment. They are considered very good for two reasons.

-Classes that use both weapons and implements only need to buy a single weapon.
-Most stuff that applies to weapons now also applies to your implement attacks (I mentioned the bola mage a while back).

So what's the list of available weapliments? Or is there one?

And the bola thing sounds pretty funny. I'm imagining a fireball that's shaped like a bola flying into a crowd of people. :smallbiggrin:

I've been reading a crap ton on warlords. They're pretty cool, and may even be what I'm looking for. I hadn't really considered them an option before one of the posters on this thread suggested it.

I really like the fluff and backstory behind the Bravura Warlord. But from what I've read they don't seem to be very effective?

Is there any way for me to get the Bard's multiclassing versatility as a Warlord? And If i took a fighter paragon and then retrained my Fighter MC feats, would I lose my paragon path?

[Kurald Galain]

So what's the list of available weapliments? Or is there one?
Technically every weapon in the book can be used as an implement. There's only a few commonly seen ones though, mostly because the bola trick is often vetoed by DMs, and for most classes the best implement is simply the Staff of Ruin.


I really like the fluff and backstory behind the Bravura Warlord. But from what I've read they don't seem to be very effective?
Well, Bravura may be weaker than Tactical warlord, but it's still a warlord. Plenty of strong powers and feats there. It's mainly that numerous classes in the game don't care about Bravura Presence's basic attack (not all classes have a useful basic attack, after all) whereas everybody loves Tactical's to-hit bonus.


Is there any way for me to get the Bard's multiclassing versatility as a Warlord?
Pre-errata Windrise Ports background. But barring particular optimization tricks, there's not generally any need to multiclass more than once. If you want to do it for flavor, just pick a theme instead.


And If i took a fighter paragon and then retrained my Fighter MC feats, would I lose my paragon path?
You can't retrain a feat that's used as a prerequisite for something else.

[killer_monk]

Technically every weapon in the book can be used as an implement. There's only a few commonly seen ones though, mostly because the bola trick is often vetoed by DMs, and for most classes the best implement is simply the Staff of Ruin.


Well, Bravura may be weaker than Tactical warlord, but it's still a warlord. Plenty of strong powers and feats there. It's mainly that numerous classes in the game don't care about Bravura Presence's basic attack (not all classes have a useful basic attack, after all) whereas everybody loves Tactical's to-hit bonus.


Pre-errata Windrise Ports background. But barring particular optimization tricks, there's not generally any need to multiclass more than once. If you want to do it for flavor, just pick a theme instead.


You can't retrain a feat that's used as a prerequisite for something else.

Okay, cool. So i don't have to worry too much about which specific weapliments aren't allowed.

For a party that all have basic attacks is the Bravura Warlord better? I'm probably going to end up with a paladin and a Rogue.

What's a theme?

Okay. Thanks for the clarification!

[Kurald Galain]

For a party that all have basic attacks is the Bravura Warlord better?
Generally speaking, Warlords love granting basic attacks (mostly melee basics) so the other characters should take that into account to give the party more teamwork options. That is, the rogue should be strength-based (brutal scoundrel) and the paladin should take Virtuous Strike.

[killer_monk]

Generally speaking, Warlords love granting basic attacks (mostly melee basics) so the other characters should take that into account to give the party more teamwork options. That is, the rogue should be strength-based (brutal scoundrel) and the paladin should take Virtuous Strike.

Okay. I'll make sure to let them know.

How are warlords in terms of using a bow? I think i may be the only real ranged character, since I doubt the Rogue in question will be interested in anything other than shanking people.

[GPuzzle]

Okay. I'll make sure to let them know.

How are warlords in terms of using a bow? I think i may be the only real ranged character, since I doubt the Rogue in question will be interested in anything other than shanking people.

Somewhat good, but not exactly for Bravura. If you're looking for Bows, you might as well go Str+Int and use Skirmishing Presence.

Then again, ranged weapons aren't really that great (although they have one of my favourite Heroic powers in Race the Arrow, which grants a charge at level 1).

[killer_monk]

Somewhat good, but not exactly for Bravura. If you're looking for Bows, you might as well go Str+Int and use Skirmishing Presence.

Then again, ranged weapons aren't really that great (although they have one of my favourite Heroic powers in Race the Arrow, which grants a charge at level 1).

What is the best Charisma based warlord? And what classes hybrid well with Warlord?

I'm wanting to become an unkillable healing turret, whether through bard or warlord. I don't mind going with ranged or melee, though melee is preferable.

[Laserlight]

Generally speaking, Warlords love granting basic attacks (mostly melee basics).

The right mindset is : "The barbarian attacks with his ax. The warlord attacks with his barbarian."

[Inevitability]

What is the best Charisma based warlord? And what classes hybrid well with Warlord?

I'm wanting to become an unkillable healing turret, whether through bard or warlord. I don't mind going with ranged or melee, though melee is preferable.

Insightful warlords can be charisma-based and gain pretty strong bonuses with certain powers... And bravura warlords aren't too shabby either, but only if you have a party with strong melee basic attacks.

I prefer bravura. The 'high risk, high reward' mentality prevents combat from bogging down, which I just hate.

If you are new to 4e, don't try to hybrid yet. By hybriding, you are removing all the safeguards inherit to 4e that prevent new players from creating characters that are barely able to do something meaningful.

And for the 'unkillable healing turrent', Bard or Warlord seem to be the two worst leaders for that. Generally, bards and warlords specialize in granting their allies attacks.

However, both have access to enough powers to just make themselves good at healing. You'll never reach cleric-levels of healing, but then, who does?

[GPuzzle]

Ardents.

Although Ardents don't heal for massive amounts every once in a while - instead, they keep healing and healing and healing and healing and healing which is something they just can't run out of.

[killer_monk]

Insightful warlords can be charisma-based and gain pretty strong bonuses with certain powers... And bravura warlords aren't too shabby either, but only if you have a party with strong melee basic attacks.

I prefer bravura. The 'high risk, high reward' mentality prevents combat from bogging down, which I just hate.

If you are new to 4e, don't try to hybrid yet. By hybriding, you are removing all the safeguards inherit to 4e that prevent new players from creating characters that are barely able to do something meaningful.

And for the 'unkillable healing turrent', Bard or Warlord seem to be the two worst leaders for that. Generally, bards and warlords specialize in granting their allies attacks.

However, both have access to enough powers to just make themselves good at healing. You'll never reach cleric-levels of healing, but then, who does?

What if i multiclassed into Fighter for a paragon of tankiness?

And which warlord has the highest affinity for granting healing?

I really like that mindset. I may steal that for my signature! :smallwink:

Ardents, huh? I'll look into them tonight.

[Tegu8788]

I'm a hybrid lover, and like to thing of myself as an expert when it comes to low level hybrids.

You sir, should not try a hybrid just yet.

Also, really realize that no one character can do it all. 4e really does not reward generalists. It is a team game, of specialists maximizing their respective niches.

And healing is a minor action now. Unless your party is taking a severe beating (because someone is doing their job horribly or your DM is really just being brutal) being a healbot isn't needed, or desired. There is free healing between fights, so you just need to survive the fight. It's better to make it through a fight quickly than spend a long time doing a fight of attrition.

[GPuzzle]

I love the Psionic classes in terms of optimization for their versatility. The fact that you can optimize them to always have a trick up their sleeves or milk every single drop of juice from a trick makes them so intersting, IMO.

Honestly, the generalist approach isn't something you should focus on, but try to be an specialist. 4e tends to reward that. And besides, it's much more awesome to watch your party rain death on a enemy than stay in the back and HEALHEALHEALHEALHEAL.

[killer_monk]

Okay. So let's move away from Healing a bit then.

What about focusing as a Leader, as in tacking on those tasty damage bonuses, and taking defender as a secondary role, as in surviving as long as feasibly possible with as little resources as possible so I can stay in the fight making sure my team wrecks encounter after encounter after encounter...

I read through Ardent, and it actually looks really cool. I think I'll wait before wading into psionics though. I'd really like to use my Martial Power books and maybe even some of my Arcane Power too.

So what do you all think? Bard or Warlord? Bravura or Battlefront? What would you take on as a melee weapon? And as a ranged?

Just trying to throw as many ideas out there as I can. I love game theory and what you all have said has really sparked my imagination on what is truly possible.

[Tegu8788]

Pick melee or ranged as your primary fighting distance. Now, no one is gonna tell you you shouldn't have melee and ranged weapons if you can, but as a Bard, you get to choose between a lot of powers. You can use a Songblade or a Songbow to mix Implement and Weapon powers. It's just not practical to try and swap what you are holding on a regular basis.


For Warlord, you can do a bit of both by using Thrown weapons, they give both melee and ranged functionality, though it's not great.

[GPuzzle]

Alright, let's be try quick.

The key thing in making monsters die faster is a combination of either buffing/debuffing, which essentially means that your enemies will be taking as much as possible from the enabling you'll be giving.

What's enabling?

A very simple example is a level 17 Warlord power on the PHB.

Hail of Steel.

In short, every ally within 5 squares of you launches a basic attack against the target.

That's a lot of basic attacks.

Suppose you are a War Chanter Bard and you took it as a multiclass power together with Slick Conocotion from the Ardent and your Dilletante is Magic Weapon. You fire Magic Weapon, minor to get your allies into position with Slick Conocotion, Action Point and deliver Hail of Steel using the Bracers of Mental Might to use Charisma.

That's a lot of basic attacks with +Con+1 to hit and 2*Con damage. It's a lot of damage.

The key thing in making things die faster, which saves up heals is:

-Go first and get your allies into position.

This allows you to kill enemies before they get a chance at attacking you, and allows you to gain control of the battlefield. If you have position on your enemies and can dictate their position, and recognize the biggest threats, is half of the battle won.

-Make your allies attack more. Now, this requires a bit of knowledge about Damage Optimization.

Damage Optimization was, according to WotC's design philosophy, the higher the weapon damage, the better it is.

Nope, as a quick math operation shows.

It's easier to come across lower static modifiers, which get severly amped to the heavens when you attack more than once.

Hurricane of Blades, for example takes those little static modifiers and multiplies them by 4. If you're going with something like Promise of Storm, Lightning's Soul and Shocking Flame, it's a free 12d8+32 damage.

Loads and loads of damage can be made with these little modifiers that get multiplied. And that's where multi-attacking powers come in. They allow the modifiers from things like War Chanter and Flame of Hope to become massive engines of destruction. And that's where the last part comes in.

-Give buffs to hit and to damage.

This is the last part, but if you've got the other two covered, is one of the most vital ones. Since your allies will be attacking more than once, you can amplify their damage during both your turn and their turns, but also their accuracy. That is vital. You can't kill a monster if you can't hit him.

This also has a secondary side, which is the debuffing. A +Con to hit and a -Con to the enemies' defenses is essentially the same thing, except that the last one will stack with everything unless it's from the same source while the former needs to be untyped or no other bonus of that type can exist for it to take effect.

-Last but not least, have a backup plan.

If everything goes wrong, you've gotta be able to survive what will hit you. That's where HP and THP come in. Healing the two squishy targets makes attacking them a bad deal, because your damage will be mitigated. You've also got to be tough by yourself.



Leaders that do this are generally called "Switches". The first one was Killswitch, an Artificer|Warlord. After that, several ones came.

Taking from Killswitch, how does it do what Switch Leaders do?

-Going first and getting allies into position - It has Improved Initiative and Combat Commander with +6 Int at level 12. This launches him to an spetacular 16 Initiative at level 12, on top of a +6 bonus to his allies. This allows him to go first. He gets his allies into position via Reorient the Axis, which saves his party a full move action due to his +6 Int Modifier.

-Enabling allies - He doesn't do this that well during Turn 1, to be honest, but he has his ways. Spell Tracer, Spell Commander's AP feature, Powerful Warning. He really shows his Warlord side at turn 2.

-Buffing allies - Magic Weapon. One of the most powerful attacks in the game. As an at-will. Frankly, it's awesome.

-Backup Plan - Expanded Resistive Formula targeting him and Controller/Squishy. With that, if a ton of minions try to attack them at once, it will get neutered.



In short, try to build around these five concepts, in that order.

Attack first (Good Initiative)

Move first (Positioning Enabling).

Attack more (Attack Enabling).

Hit more (Buffing/Debuffing).

Be prepared for the worst (backup plan).

That's what good leaders do.



I understand that you make the mistake of "I want to be the healer".

No.

Even if you want, THP doesn't save you from that dominate.

Three thing save you.

First, ability to shrug off the effects. That's why Mark of Healing is so freaking important for Leaders. It's great because it adds another safety net to the backup plan.

Second, making it so that the dominate doesn't hit. This is a more defendery approach. Penalties, buff to all defenses... In short, if your enemy can't hit an ally, it can't slap that nasty effect on it.

Last but not least, killing it before it has the chance to use that dominate. And that's what Switches do.

[killer_monk]

I was going to quote you, GPuzzle, but it was a bit too much for that.

But man, that's a lot of stuff to take in. And yet I kinda get it all. It's really not all that difficult if you look at the leader classes as the classes that play D&D like chess, while other roles play it more individually.

Which is really awesome. I think Leader is my calling, as far as Roles go. Time to eventually play every leader in the book! :smallsmile:

But for now, I'm still really torn between warlord and Bard. I love Bard (not so much the music, but the sheer versatility is astounding.) but Warlord better fits my Hack'n'Slash desires.

I think i may actually be a Warlord. If for no other reason than to step outside my Bard niche. Maybe I'll eventually multiclass into Bard or something!

Would anyone care to explain the finer points of a Battlefront Warlord? Or even the various warlord typings? (bravura etc..)

Oh, and thanks again to everyone here! I hadn't even considered warlord before you all mentioned it, and now it's the class I'll be using!

[GPuzzle]

Warlords have two parts.

Leadership and Presence.

Leaderships involve the Combat Leader and the Battlefront Leader (don't use Canny Leader unless you're in an RP-heavy campaign, and you should be a Bard in that case). Combat Leader fuels bonus to Initiative, which is great if you've got a way to move your allies around (Reorient the Axis, for one), but not so great otherwise. It's also dependent on Charisma or Intelligence.

Battlefront Leader is a more defensive approach with Heavy Shield and Scale. It doesn't have a bonus to initiative, but it can allow your allies and you to shift your speed before combat starts at Epic. It's also stat-free.

Presences define what bonus do your allies gain when they AP.

Tactical gives +Int to hit.
Bravura gives an MBA.
Inspiring gives +Cha healing.
Insightful gives +Wis or +Cha to all defenses.
Skirmishing gives a +Int or +Wis shift.
Resourceful gives a +Int damage if they hit and +Cha THP if they miss.

They also define your riders (such as Pincer Manuver dealing +Cha to damage normally while flanking and +Cha to damage and to hit while flanking if you're a Bravura Warlord).

[killer_monk]

Warlords have two parts.

Leadership and Presence.

Leaderships involve the Combat Leader and the Battlefront Leader (don't use Canny Leader unless you're in an RP-heavy campaign, and you should be a Bard in that case). Combat Leader fuels bonus to Initiative, which is great if you've got a way to move your allies around (Reorient the Axis, for one), but not so great otherwise. It's also dependent on Charisma or Intelligence.

Battlefront Leader is a more defensive approach with Heavy Shield and Scale. It doesn't have a bonus to initiative, but it can allow your allies and you to shift your speed before combat starts at Epic. It's also stat-free.

Presences define what bonus do your allies gain when they AP.

Tactical gives +Int to hit.
Bravura gives an MBA.
Inspiring gives +Cha healing.
Insightful gives +Wis or +Cha to all defenses.
Skirmishing gives a +Int or +Wis shift.
Resourceful gives a +Int damage if they hit and +Cha THP if they miss.

They also define your riders (such as Pincer Manuver dealing +Cha to damage normally while flanking and +Cha to damage and to hit while flanking if you're a Bravura Warlord).

Does that mean I could be a Battlefront Bravura? Or just one or the other?

Insightful looks...really really good. I may have to study my books a bit more.

And thanks for such a fast reply!

[Tegu8788]

Yep, you can mix and match them anyway you like, though some combos are of course better than others.

And you don't need to quote us every time you want to respond. It's mostly useful for responding to several people at once, or dealing with individual aspects of very long replies. No guilt needed.


And if you want hack and slash, a Warlord is the way to go. You will be doing some damage yourself, but remember that damage of your own isn't the goal, it's boosting your allies damage. You may see some stuff for Lazylord builds. The trick is to never attack, and always grant allies attacks on your turn. This doesn't sound like your style, but that doesn't mean a few of those powers aren't helpful.

[killer_monk]

That's...amazing. So much I can do with this. The limitless tactics. I see...it all. :smallamused:

Okay. I'll try to cut back on the quotes.

I'll make sure to read his guides tomorrow.

I'll also read up on warlords and ask any questions I may have.

[GPuzzle]

Insighftul is bad. Why? Because APs are much more offensive than defensive.

Honestly, though, I'd say the two best are Tactical and Bravura.

[killer_monk]

Yeah. I'll stick with Bravura.

I'll read the guides here in just a moment.

I would like to know if the heroic and paragon (i think that they're in those tiers) "improved initiatives" stack with each other for a total of +12 initiative.

And I think Battlefront is going to be the Warlord type i play. I just can't resist the pull of wading into combat along side my allies.

But what type of warlord would you all prefer in your group? Tactical or Bravura? Battlefront or otherwise?

[Epinephrine]

IIRC they do not stack, I believe both are feat bonuses, and only the largest of a given type of bonus applies.

You don't actually need to take Battlefront to fight at the front. You already have chain, hide, and light shield.
What do you get from Battlefront? An encounter power (not bad), free heavy shield (you'll have the strength to get this if you want it, thouogh saves a feat), and the option of getting scale armour for a feat without the pre-requisites (so no need for a 13 Con).

You give up on a party-wide initiative bonus that can get very impressive in paragon (with a feat).

If you pair up with your defender often to work on targets your defender will protect you a fair bit, letting you get in on the action even if your AC is a few points lower than his/hers. A single feat catches you up to the defenses (H shield proficiency, which you'll have the 15 strength for). I would tend to think the initiative bonus is more valuable, but if you won't have 13 Con and want to be heavily armoured the battlefront leader is an option.

[Inevitability]

The 'improved initiative' feats will stack depending on their bonus. If any of them is an untyped bonus, they stack. If both are feat bonuses, they don't stack.

And GPuzzle, I mostly recommended Insightful for the powers it gains. Things like Powerful Warning that can be used at range and grant huge defense bonuses are really useful when used right.

[killer_monk]

I wanted the scale proficiency. I was going to get scale eventually regardless. I just use wanted the extra free healing surge with it.

I also remember seeing some other decent Battlefront Feats.

But how much can you get the initiative bonus to? If it's pretty high I may just get scale through the standard Feat and take it instead.

And thanks about the Feat Dire Stirge. I'll have to check it when I can.

[Epinephrine]

The basic bonus is +2 to everyone; a feat in heroic turns it into +3, and retraining that feat in paragon turns it into +Cha or +Int, whichever is higher. It's enough of a bonus that your side generally acts first, which can be pretty decisive. That said, it's not necessary, and you can have fun with the other approach, too.

[killer_monk]

That's actually really tempting. I'll read a bit more tonight.

From what I've read, infernal strategist is the best paragon. Any consensus on this?

[Epinephrine]

Infernal Strategist is only for resourceful warlords. For them it's great; if you are bravura, I like Battle Champion (helps the others make their action points count).
When your allies use an AP, they swing twice and crit on a 19-20; when you use an AP, you hand an attack to an ally.

My half-elf bravura went Sidhe Lord as a theme, so he can take an action point from another player with a weak action point benefit (maybe a wizard or someone), and then use it himself, handing an attack to a strong attacker. The plan was to go warmaster at Epic, where he would grant a standard action when he uses an action point.

[killer_monk]

Isn't there a paragon for Bravura Warlords? And how is it?

BTW: The player I previously thought was playing a rogue is now going to play a TWF Ranger. So unless they change, that's that.

The paladin is also considering switching. Though he'll almost assuredly remain a defender.

[Tegu8788]

As long as the character is Str primary, has a strong Str secondary, or has a power that says something akin to "this counts as an MBA" but doesn't specify charging, then it's useful for the Warlord.

[Inevitability]

Ask the TWF ranger to gain as much static bonuses to damage as possible. All these bonuses will apply when he Twin Strikes, for example. Or when you grant him an attack.

That can count up to three times a round massive bonuses to damage.

If you are starting at low level, this is less good, but you should probably still grant the ranger attacks, instead of the defender. (If said defender is a fighter, you can also grant him attacks)

[Epinephrine]

Isn't there a paragon for Bravura Warlords? And how is it?
I don't think there is one specifically for bravura warlords. I suggested Battle Champion as it does two things that fit well: It takes a lot of the gamble out of the Bravura presence by reducing the chance that your allies will miss, and it hands out an attack when you AP, which should work well in any party in which a bravura works well. There is a bravura mini-guide that offers some thoughts on the bravura warlord, too.

[killer_monk]

Okay, thanks Tegu8788!

I'll try to motivate the ranger to get a crap ton of static bonuses. They tend to like massive damage numbers, so it shouldn't be too hard. Though we are starting at level 1 and working our way indefinitely from there.

What about Paragons that aren't specifically for Warlords, yet fit well with my Bravura style? Anything you guys can think of?

Oh, and I'm going with Battlefront. I need as much AC as possible to survive if my Bravura starts going south fast. Being able to risk taking a hit is important. I'll just boost my Initiative another way. Shouldn't be too hard, right?:smallbiggrin:

I know we will have access to an arena. We will be rewarded prizes based on the number of rounds we survive without taking anything more than a 5 minute break. Any thoughts on how to survive the longest on the least resources?

[GPuzzle]

I'd say that the best Paragon Path for Bravura Warlords is... Battlelord of Kord.

Seriously, it turns your heals into a massive (as in, MASSIVE) buff to hit and to damage.

Survive the longest on the least number of resources? Get in high ground and keep them from getting into that high ground by knocking them prone.

I think that while the powers from Insightful are great, I wouldn't pick the presence, because during that nova round, the Ranger is better off getting that massive amounts of swings to kill Lolth than surviving her next attack. You can still pick up the powers from it, and they're awesome.

[killer_monk]

What powers from warlord knock prone?

Also, I think i may take Greatbow proficiency and then take that one feat that allows me to switch at will after a rest. So i can adapt to either ranged or melee as needed. Any suggestions? Or is this a horrible idea?

Where is the Kord Paragon from?

And the other players are definitely going with Ranger and Paladin now. We're ready to rumble.

[GPuzzle]

What powers from warlord knock prone?

Also, I think i may take Greatbow proficiency and then take that one feat that allows me to switch at will after a rest. So i can adapt to either ranged or melee as needed. Any suggestions? Or is this a horrible idea?

Where is the Kord Paragon from?

And the other players are definitely going with Ranger and Paladin now. We're ready to rumble.

Martial Power.

By the way, I'd recommend either a Drow Long Knife or a Javelin for your Ranged Weapon - specially if they're enchanted, because now, they come back to you after you throw them.

[killer_monk]

After reading through Martial Power I found the Flamebrow Commander Paragon, which is specifically for Bravura Warlords. Any thoughts on this particular paragon?

Is using a Broadsword any good? I know it adds a little damage, but I'm wondering if it's worth the +1 proficiency bonus to hit.

Is the adamant arrow feat any good? Pushing a target one square is usually very good, right?

And for a ranged at will, would you take paint the bull's eye or the one riskier shot that gives more damage but grants combat advantage?

And I checked and the improved initiatives do not stack.

Also, thanks guys!

[Epinephrine]

After reading through Martial Power I found the Flamebrow Commander Paragon, which is specifically for Bravura Warlords. Any thoughts on this particular paragon?

Not great. You get to use your own bravura presence, which gives you 1 basic attack /2 fights. I'd rather take Battle Champion and give my striker a basic attack /2 fights. The other features are less useful, one only happens if you are dying (which you should aim not to be) and the other when you are bloodied (again, not a state you should be aiming for as the leader).

GPuzzle suggested Battlord of Kord, which is very solid (more so in the small party you are using), I had suggested Battle Champion, as double rolls and crit on 19-20 on action points will really ensure they hit, and that your allies get the bravura bonus attack, plus you hand a striker a bonus attack whenever you use your AP. I had taken Battle Champion on mine in part because I planned to cycle additional APs through my leader via Sidhe Bargain, making the AP feature stronger, and in a bigger party the bonus to your allies' APs is comparatively stronger; in a party with only 2 allies the Battlelord's bonus from using his heals is pretty impressive, especially when one of those allies is a multi-attacking class.


Is using a Broadsword any good? I know it adds a little damage, but I'm wondering if it's worth the +1 proficiency bonus to hit.
No, it's a horrible weapon. Losing 5% to hit in exchange for 1 point of damage per weapon die is a bad trade. Ignoring the fact that many powers have great effects you want to trigger on a hit, assume that you hit an enemy about 60% of the time with the broadsword, but 65% of the time with a longsword. You would need to deal 8.3% more damage with the broadsword to catch up on average damage. At low levels, it might work out, but once you have a static bonus of +9 or more, your 1[W] attacks will do better with the +1 to hit. And that's ignoring the effects, which are (I would think) more important for a leader. I think most people agree that a leader should be aiming to hit, so that their attack effects occur; there's not much point to having an attack that allows your allies to swoop in and pound the enemy if it doesn't trigger because you missed by one. I'd aim for +3 proficiency weapons where possible; if you are going with a heavy shield, you ware pretty much looking at various 1 handed light/heavy blades, a flail (alhulak or triple headed), or a singing stick. Of these, I would say that the weapons to consider are:
Longsword - martial and +3, 1d8, heavy blade. Not a bad weapon since it's available with no feats.
Rapier - martial and +3, 1d8, light blade. The light blade version of the longsword.
Alhulak - martial, +3, 1d8, flail. If you are going to do slides and such the flails have good support.
Dagger - simple, ranged and melee, +3, 1d4, light blade. Not a great weapon, but it offers ranged and melee at no cost.

For a feat, you can upgrade the longsword, alhulak, and dagger to the bastard sword, triple headed flail, and the drow long knife, going up a damage die in each case.


Is the adamant arrow feat any good? Pushing a target one square is usually very good, right? Can be nice. Particularly if you can knock folks off ledges. we had a fight a while ago on a long, twisting, 1 square wide staircase, and ranged pushes destroyed our foes. Not normally the leader's job, but if the role is not otherwise filled in a 3-man party it might not be the worst choice. It will be difficult to keep a competitive ranged and melee option unless you get a weapon that can satisfy both, in general you'll end up with one lagging behind the other due to not being able to afford keeping two enchantments up. There are a few enchantments that turn a melee weapon into a ranged one that can offset this (hungry spear, farbond spellblade come to mind).

[killer_monk]

Understood. I'll keep those Paragons on my list and keep looking for anything else that may be interesting. I've got plenty of time till level 11 anyways.

So the longsword is a lot better? Are there any other standard weapons with hidden potential?

And I'll consider dagger, but i was leaning towards a bow simply because I can't remember the last time I played a character who used a bow. (actually, I'm not sure I've ever played a character who's used a bow...)

I've heard talk about the Archer Warlord? And that i may even be able to take it in conjunction with my Bravura/Battlefront combo? I'm not sure yet, just still wandering about looking at stuff. (though I am definitely going with Bravura and Battlefront. Too cool.)

As for sliding someone, I think I'll have ample opportunity to kill people with fall damage, if that helps. Does fall damage become a non-issue at higher levels like it did in 3.x with the appearance of monsters with flying abilities?

I spoke to the Paladin, and he wants to go with a Hospitaler/tank build. So im not so stuck with healing now! :smallsmile:

Are there any particularly good or necessary At wills for a bow using Warlord?

So thanks everybody! I'm really enjoying how my character is turning out! And it's all thanks to you guys!

[Epinephrine]

I would just say that in general accuracy is better than damage for a leader. If you can get a particular effect from a weapon, it might be worth prioritising it, whether it's a feat combination, or a set of enchantments. I took a 1H spear for a warlord despite the accuracy issue as I wanted the ability to use Direct the Strike as an Opportunity Attack (figuring it's better for my adjacent striker to punish the offender when possible); spears can have the Chieftain's Weapon enchantment, which grants a +1 to the attack roll of attacks he grants, so it made the attacks he was handing out deadlier. So there are reasons one might want to sacrifice accuracy.

As for archer warlord, sure, it can work; the skirmishing warlord benefits are pretty weak though, so I'd stick with Bravura and ignore the skirmishing stuff. As for Battlefront with archer warlord, I'm not sure it's a great combination. You lose the ability to wear Chain mail by taking archer warlord, and I think armoured warlord requires the ability to use chain mail (post errata), which means that your armour class sucks. You've abandoned the benefits of the battlefornt leader (heavy shield, option for scale armour) and pretty much gained a Str-based RBA. If you want battlefront commander and a ranged attack, use a shield and thrown weapon; archer warlord just doesn't mix well with it. Plus, since the archer warlord has given up most of its AC, you pretty much need to be Int secondary (making tactical a decent choice for presence).

Fall damage isn't a big deal, generally; it's only 1d10 per 10 feet. It's great control, though, as people lying prone atthe bottom of a cliff can't easily get you. They spend a move to stand, and now they can start climbing, or running back around where it's easier to get at you.

Edit to add: You can always USE a bow as a warlord, just ignoring the archer feature. It means that you have horrible RBAs with a bow, but as long as you build with your ranged attacking in mind, and you don't have features granting yourself an RBA or BA you should be fine. I doubt anyone else is granting you a basic attack, and you won't be making OAs with a bow, so there should be very few reasons to need an RBA.

[killer_monk]

I didn't realize it had gotten an errata. Although the RBA thing really isn't that great of an addition considering the loss.

Is it possible to take Intelligence as a Tertiary stats, with Strength and Charisma as my Primary and Secondary stats and not cripple myself? I think I'll have the highest Intelligence in the party if i focus on it a bit. Especially since a lot of Warlord powers seem to focus on Intelligence (i know it's TacLord stuff, but branching out of your niche a bit can often be both beneficial and fun!)

And are there any Manuals that permanently increase stats like there where in the previous iterations of D&D?

Okay. Would I still be able to use a bow? Or would it even be worth bothering with? Considering I won't take Archer Warlord. Should I still consider picking up the Feat that let's me switch At Wills for something else?

Okay. It may still be an okay option for some BFC though.

I was reading through the PHB3 and saw skill utility powers. From what I understand, Insight Utilities are actually quite good for a Warlord. Is there any truth to this?

[Epinephrine]

Is it possible to take Intelligence as a Tertiary stats, with Strength and Charisma as my Primary and Secondary stats and not cripple myself? I think I'll have the highest Intelligence in the party if i focus on it a bit. Especially since a lot of Warlord powers seem to focus on Intelligence (i know it's TacLord stuff, but branching out of your niche a bit can often be both beneficial and fun!)

You can do it, but not sufficiently to rely on it as a defense. If you give up heavy armour and your shield, you want a very solid stat for your defense. In general, characters are rewarded for specializing, but some classes can balance a pair of secondaries and do well.


And are there any Manuals that permanently increase stats like there where in the previous iterations of D&D?

Nope


Okay. Would I still be able to use a bow? Or would it even be worth bothering with? Considering I won't take Archer Warlord. Should I still consider picking up the Feat that let's me switch At Wills for something else?

You could; if you go with just a bow you give up a lot of the really strong warlord powers, since many will be melee attacks.
If you just want the ability to use a bow, you can give up a minor benefit from your expertise feat to pick up Master at Arms.
The benefits from the expertise feats aren't huge, so giving them up isn't the end of the world; Master at Arms has a benefit that allows you to swap weapons easily, but you may not benefit much from the swapping (unless you go shield-less), as it takes a standard action to remove a shield.
You'll probably end up having either ranged or melee fall behind by a point, as it's expensive to maintain both weapons; there is something to be said for the economy of having a single weapon (and if you need ranged and melee there are either the mundane thrown weapons, or those you get via enchantments).


I was reading through the PHB3 and saw skill utility powers. From what I understand, Insight Utilities are actually quite good for a Warlord. Is there any truth to this?

I guess so? If I have a spare feat, I often pick up a skill power, though seldom do I find that skill powers outperform the top utility picks for a class.

[killer_monk]

Not as a defense. I wanted to know about it in terms of making skill checks and some powers that requires intelligence.

Okay. Are there any methods of getting stat boosts outside of leveling and epic destinies?

Bow would definitely be a secondary weapon I could fall back on in case an enemy runs or is a flyer. My main weapon is likely going to be a longsword. I have considered Greatswords and Fullblades though. Since I hadn't planned on using a shield. (The best magic shields we get will likely go to the Paladin.)

Master at Arms looks awesome. But I don't have essentials. Isn't there a quick draw feat in the PHB?

The At Will I'd take with the Feat would be a ranged (bow) one. So it'd allow me to prep a step in advance if i new I was going to have flyers.

It'd also allow me to experiment with what fighting style I enjoy most as a Warlord. I can always retrain out of it if I don't like it, right?

Do skill powers cost Feats? I thought you could take them in place of a utility powers of the same level as long as you were trained in the skills itself?

[Epinephrine]

There are no ways to boost stats other than levels and epic destinies. There is a suit of armour (Tactician's) that allows you to count your Int bonus as one higher than it is; "When a power or class feature calls on your Intelligence modifier to determine a value other than your attack bonus, add 1 to that value. This does not change your Intelligence modifier for any other purpose"

So that can help you achieve a bit of a balance between Int and Charisma as riders. It doesn't really boost your attribute, and I am not aware of other enchantments like that.

Shields are largely non-magical in 4e; it isn't like 3.5, where the magical shield provides a big input to your defenses. A light shield provides +1 shield bonus to AC and Refex, a heavy shield provides +2; a level 27 magical shield probably provides the exact same benefits. The shield magical properties don't tend to do much really, and you have to choose between having an arm slot and having a shield. So don't let the availability of magic shields make the decision. AC ranges in 4e are pretty narrow; the difference between the "tank" and another front-liner is probably only a couple of points (tank trying to keep Level +18 or more AC, melee combatant going for Level +15 or Level +16), and the worst AC in the party won't be much lower (I think few characters are below level +14 - you can have that in chain with no shield, or cloth (with a feat) or leather, no shield, and a starting 18 in a defense (Int or Dex for most). Giving up 2 points of AC and Reflex for a bit more damage is a questionable trade for a leader; hopefully you'd get something good out of it - increased control, or access to powers/feats that make you better at your role. An extra few points of damage from the leader is seldom the deciding factor - the striker will likely hit more often (via off turn attacks, minor action attacks, multi-attacking powers) and with more weapon dice (they may well have powers that hit for 3[W]. 4[W], or more), while you'll be stuck at 1[W] or 2[W], probably only once per round, making the big damage dice less important for you.

I suggested Master at Arms more for the scaling bonus to attack rolls (+1/2/3) than for the swapping, You'll want an expertise feat of some sort for both weapons, or one will lag behind. Versatile expertise could substitute.

Skill powers can be taken instead of a utility power, but generally the utility powers are stronger for the classes with good support (Warlord is one). If you were a class with a very short list of powers there might be a shortage of good powers, which would justify taking a skill power instead. There is a feat that gives you (straight up) a skill power. Generally the best way to get a skill power is the feat, since a good skill power will offer more benefit than most of your later-picked feats.

[killer_monk]

Alright. So i need to be fairly picky with my stats.

I'll aim at getting tactician's armor then. Thanks for the suggestion!

A small boost from shield. Maybe should stick to regular arm slot items and open up to two handed weapons? Is a Greatsword pretty good for a Warlord?

Versatile Expertise looks like it's for combining an implement and weapon expertise into one? A bow isn't an implement though, so how does this work?

Okay. So only take a skill power if i can't find a utility that's better within my class? Which, with all my Warlord stuff is highly unlikely.

And thank you for the response!

How often do you all find yourselves strapped for Feats? Or do you usually have room for everything you want?

[GPuzzle]

Alright. So i need to be fairly picky with my stats.

I'll aim at getting tactician's armor then. Thanks for the suggestion!

A small boost from shield. Maybe should stick to regular arm slot items and open up to two handed weapons? Is a Greatsword pretty good for a Warlord?

Versatile Expertise looks like it's for combining an implement and weapon expertise into one? A bow isn't an implement though, so how does this work?

Okay. So only take a skill power if i can't find a utility that's better within my class? Which, with all my Warlord stuff is highly unlikely.

And thank you for the response!

How often do you all find yourselves strapped for Feats? Or do you usually have room for everything you want?

Nope, keep the shield. It's great. You can use the Iron Armbands of Power (which you should) and a normal shield, and you should use something with a +3 to hit. It's nearly mandatory for a Leader.

Level 16. You either pick something from level 10 (which is just awesome) or Insightful Riposte (Insight skill power) for a mini-Heroic Effort.

How often do I find myself strapped for Feats?

All the time. Initiative, Expertise, Defenses, Superior Will, Armor Especialisation, Epic NADs eat up roughly 6-8 feats of my build, of the 18 feats I can take. Then there are the ones I have to take for the Character. These eat up another 6-8. And then there are the ones I take to plug in the holes. These take up 2-4 feats.

It's VERY hard.

Also, get Essentials. The classes aren't really that worth it (with the exception of the Knight, the Skald, the Protector Druid and the Mage), but there's some nifty powers and feats throughout it. I think it's worth it.

[Epinephrine]

Alright. So i need to be fairly picky with my stats.
Edit - deleting what I wrote as I see you all have the same stat array: 16/16/14/14/12/10

This looks quite nice. 16+2 for Strength and 16+2 for Charisma, as you had originally suggested for your bard looks fine; 14 Int gives a decent Reflex score as well as Int-based skills and possibly some benefit on powers (with a +1 if you use tactician's armour), a 14 Wisdom could be useful for some multiclassing, and that leaves a 12 and 10 for Con and Dex. If you don't want a fighter multiclass using Battle Awareness you could swap the 14 into Dex or Con, but given that you will be on the front lines with a decent MBA, it doesn't hurt to have an extra attack from Battle Awareness, and it opens up some nice feats for you.


A small boost from shield. Maybe should stick to regular arm slot items and open up to two handed weapons? Is a Greatsword pretty good for a Warlord?
What I was trying to get at is that the +2 is a big difference; it's typically what separates a squishy from a melee combatant, or a tough front-line striker from the tank. Throwing away +2 AC and Reflex (especially when you've chosen Battlefront commander to get the heavy shield) seems a bit sub-optimal. You can use an arm item and a shield, what I meant was that you only get one of those slots with a magical item, so most people opt for arms, and the shield is mundane.


Versatile Expertise looks like it's for combining an implement and weapon expertise into one? A bow isn't an implement though, so how does this work? That's what it is for, but the bonus applies to attack rolls, not just implement attack rolls or weapon attacks. So you can use it to gain a bonus with two different weapons, if you don't have access to Master at Arms. As for which is the "implement", heavy and light blades are implements to swordmages, so that's your "implement" and bow is your "weapon", it doesn't matter as you get a bonus to attack rolls with each. Master at Arms is probabnly the easier way to do it.


Okay. So only take a skill power if i can't find a utility that's better within my class?
Or if you have a feat to spare. Feats are tight, but skill powers can be pretty good, so I often find I can squeeze one in.
Really, it boils down to "take the best power you can," which often is a class power, followed by "take the best feats you can," which can include the Skill Power feat.

[killer_monk]

Do I apply either my dex or Intelligence bonus to AC? Or is it just dex?

Wisdom may be my 10. Since the paladin is going with a strength/wisdom build. That way I can focus other stuff.

I see. I'll consider packing a heavy shield around then. Should make me a bit harder to hit.

I'll try to get essentials.

Okay. Tanks epinephrine!

It's a +3 to hit when you miss Right? Maybe saving you a daily?

I'll try to pre-plan my feats.

I'll get my character sheet set up tonight and post it here tomorrow for review.

Anything else?

[Epinephrine]

Either Dexterity or Intelligence modifier would be applied to AC if you were in light armour. In heavy armour you don't get either; there is a magical suit that allows a small bonus based on your dexterity (Agile armor) that can be very nice, but it competes with other armors you might wear, and is an expensive enchantment (though the same cost as tactician's). If you wanted to max this you'd want to hit a 16 Dex by epic (it can provide a scaling 1/2/3 item bonus to AC, and item bonuses to AC are hard to come by.) The magical armour is an exception, in general Dex and Int do not affect your AC in heavy armour.

I'm not sure what you mean about "It's a +3 to hit when you miss Right? "

[killer_monk]

Either Dexterity or Intelligence modifier would be applied to AC if you were in light armour. In heavy armour you don't get either; there is a magical suit that allows a small bonus based on your dexterity (Agile armor) that can be very nice, but it competes with other armors you might wear, and is an expensive enchantment (though the same cost as tactician's). If you wanted to max this you'd want to hit a 16 Dex by epic (it can provide a scaling 1/2/3 item bonus to AC, and item bonuses to AC are hard to come by.)

I'm not sure what you mean about "It's a +3 to hit when you miss Right? "

I'm probably going with heavy armor. Dexterity will not be a major concern for anything other than initiative. So maybe a 12?

Intelligence and constitution for a 14, a wisdom of 10, a charisma and strength of 18 each. Sound good?

I was referring to GPuzzle's comment of the insight utility. The utility in question gives you +3 to hit on an attack that would normally miss once an encounter.

[Epinephrine]

Looks fine to me. The main reason I would consider a higher wisdom is if you wanted a multiclass feat that required wisdom.

[GPuzzle]

Your Paladin is going with a Strength/Wisdom build?

And you don't have acess to Divine Power or Dragon Magazines?

And he's not a Half-Orc that's multiclassing Fighter and going for the Polearm Master PP?

You guys are screwed to an extent.

And a very big one at that.

[killer_monk]

Your Paladin is going with a Strength/Wisdom build?

And you don't have acess to Divine Power or Dragon Magazines?

And he's not a Half-Orc that's multiclassing Fighter and going for the Polearm Master PP?

You guys are screwed to an extent.

And a very big one at that.

He's going pre-errata Hospitaler, as a human, and he'll likely get divine power.

And he's not dumping charisma or anything. It should be tied with wisdom until about level 15.

[GPuzzle]

He's going pre-errata Hospitaler, as a human, and he'll likely get divine power.

And he's not dumping charisma or anything. It should be tied with wisdom until about level 15.

...

The thing is, Paladins NEED the multimarks from Divine Power (punishment stackers are necessary, too, such as Guardian's Counter, Battle Awareness and Price of Cowardice). And Hospitalers want their Wisdom to hit at least a +6 modifier by level 21, which is when ALL damage is mitigated.

And there's two ways to multimark.

First, be a Chaladin.

Second, be a Half-Orc with the Blessed Strength feat and Mighty Challenge feat.

Now you have the most damaging Divine Challenge in the game, and still have your multimarks to hold down multiple opponents. Might be better if Hybridying with Fighter, taking Combat Superiority as your Hybrid Talent, taking Shield Push, Swift Spear, Devout Protector Expertise, Battering Shield, Polearm Momentum, Power of Skill and Impaling Spear and you end up a very good lockdown combo - Divine Challenged enemy deals no damage, loads and loads of enemies are marked and with still get punishments such as being weakened, and can punish shifts very easily with a highly accurate attack that knocks prone, while still giving +1 to AC to everyone.

Actually, I might make that build.

[Inevitability]

GP? You're wandering off in one of your optimization speeches again... :smallsigh:

But he is right. Paladins need two things to function as a defender:

-A good opportunity attack.
-A good divine sanction/challenge

If you are going PHB-only, you have to be a strength/charisma paladin to actually get both.
I hate to say it, but I fear monsters will either just walk past the paladin, or attack his allies without taking noteworthy damage.

[GPuzzle]

GP? You're wandering off in one of your optimization speeches again... :smallsigh:

But he is right. Paladins need two things to function as a defender:

-A good opportunity attack.
-A good divine sanction/challenge

If you are going PHB-only, you have to be a strength/charisma paladin to actually get both.
I hate to say it, but I fear monsters will either just walk past the paladin, or attack his allies without taking noteworthy damage.

Yeah, I should be more careful with that.

Then again, that build sounds so awesome I want to try it soon.

[killer_monk]

We're not PHB only, we just haven't bought many books yet. So it's mostly a matter of when, not if.

...yeah. Nice optimization tangent. I'll tell him that stuff.:smallwink:

But i think the paladin will be okay. I don't believe optimization is necessary for a campaign, though it does make things go faster. I enjoy optimization and game theory the most of anyone in the group. The others just like rolling dice and story telling.

And thanks for everyone's support. It's helped me with my PC a lot.

On a tangent of my own, if your PC's were to play through 20 arena encounters, each of which was a level appropriate encounter (if not above level), would you reward them with ~6 milestones, a level appropriate random magic item and 2 levels?

Or, because the rounds were easy to access, would you give them a fraction of the milestones and experience? As well as no magic items? I'm asking on behalf of the DM. (I'm normally the DM, so hurrah for me getting back on the other side of the screen!)

[Epinephrine]

On a tangent of my own, if your PC's were to play through 20 arena encounters, each of which was a level appropriate encounter (if not above level), would you reward them with ~6 milestones, a level appropriate random magic item and 2 levels?

You typically hit a milestone every 2 encounters, gaining an action point. You lose those when you take an extended rest, starting again with your base action points (generally 1). Few PCs could do 20 encounters without an extended rest.

If you've done 20 encounters at level, you'd gain 2 levels, and appropriate magic items as per the DMG. Examples start on page 126 or so. Rough guideline is for each level, they get monetary treasure/fence-able items worth an L+1 item, as well as an L+1, L+2, L+3, and L+4 item (split across the party, that is presuming a standard party of 5). The standard rate of gain is also approximately the value of an L+2 item per player, each level, so an L+2 and an L+3 item each would be about right.

[killer_monk]

I won't be able to post my stats until at least tomorrow since I've been busy with work and stuff.

I was considering multiclassing into Ranger, is this a viable choice for a Warlord? Especially a strength warlord who is mostly dumping Dexterity?

And thanks about the encounter details. I have no idea why I said 6 milestones though, even as I was thinking about a milestone every other encounter as i wrote it.

I wanted to ask another question for the DM. I normally write all my adventures from scratch, but he wanted to use a campaign, which campaign would be best for a new DM?

[killer_monk]

I got the Heroes of the Fallen Lands PDF today, and will be ordering it in hardback from Amazon very soon.

Master at Arms will be my 2nd or 3rd feat.

I've decided to go with a longsword, mundane heavy shield and a Greataxe (roleplay reasons) for now. I will be taking Armored Warlord as my first level feat, and will buy scale.

My stats will be:
Strength: 18
Dexterity: 12
Constitution: 14-16
Charisma: 16-18
Wisdom: 10
Intelligence: 14

I took athletics, endurance, diplomacy and intimidate as my starting trained skills.

I'd like to multiclass Barbarian somewhere in the near future, and take the Feat from Primal Power that gives me rampage. I plan on taking Perception when I take my MC. I also have the Sentry background from MP2, and chose a +2 to perception checks as my bonus.

I'd like any possible recommendations for a paragon path that blends well with Warlord/Barbarian, focusing the barbarian aspect.
Especially ones that net me more health and resistances.

Eternal Seeker will undoubtedly be my Epic Destiny. Though what's the best Warlord level 24 feature to pick up? The legendary general's "my allies can't die" looks good. Though Dragonheart's. Ability to get 50% of your health as temp hp also looks great.

Any suggestions on charging too? I like the looks of it. Especially for my savage/frontiersman warlord feel.

Any good expertise feats? Like the one that removes armor check penalties and speed reductions? Or the Superior Fortitude/Reflex/Will line? What about toughness, does the extra 15 HP make a significant difference?

I'd like to dip into the executioner Axe build a bit. And possibly still take Bow stuff later, though I think the ranger volunteered for archery.

And the I'd like an opinion on my constitution/charisma starting stats. I'm trying to get as much health and AC as possible while still retaining my Striker like tendency to jump right in.

[Epinephrine]

I've decided to go with a longsword, mundane heavy shield and a Greataxe (roleplay reasons) for now. I will be taking Armored Warlord as my first level feat, and will buy scale.

You can't easily switch between a 2H and a 1H weapon in combat. I really think you need to pick 1H plus shield or 2H.


I'd like to multiclass Barbarian somewhere in the near future, and take the Feat from Primal Power that gives me rampage. I plan on taking Perception when I take my MC. I also have the Sentry background from MP2, and chose a +2 to perception checks as my bonus.
Sounds fun; if you are looking to get the most from rampage you'll want to have ways to boost your crit rate, to increase the chance of getting the extra attack. You may want to plan ahead for your mastery feat if you want to have the stats for it.


I'd like any possible recommendations for a paragon path that blends well with Warlord/Barbarian, focusing the barbarian aspect.
Especially ones that net me more health and resistances.
Well, there's a very flavourful path that requires a primal background called Nocturnal; it is charge oriented, and is about becoming more bound to the world of shadow, going phasing when you charge, and so on. Not strictly barbarian, but very much a charging/aggressive path that allows you to reach enemies in the back by phasing right through enemies. Unfortunately many barbarian paths will be about raging, something you won't have unless you power swap for a barbarian daily, and even then you'd be limited to one rage a day.
There is a warlord/barbarian path called the Warpath Berserker, but it has a very warlord feel, for example having an encounter power called Crush Them ("With a slap on the back, you send your allies into battle to claim their glory.") sending one or two allies charging in to attack. Spending one standard action to allow two allies to charge is pretty good, especially if you have two decent chargers, but it's clearly more of a warlord feel.



Any suggestions on charging too? I like the looks of it. Especially for my savage/frontiersman warlord feel.
The Ogremight style feat for warolords (Ogremight ravager) allows you to score critical hits on a charge while using a two-handed hammer on a 19-20; this fits both the rampage feature and a charge build, and the 2H hammers are decent barbarian-type weapons.

So, one potential route if you want to be a charge-happy warlord would be to pick up a big hammer (maul, mordenkrad) and the Ogremight feats, and go with Nocturnal as your path. You can get an Avalanche Weapon as a magic item (deals +1[W] on the MBA from charging), and get items like a Horned Helm (bonus damage on charges) to boost your charges. Pick powers that allow you and allies to charge, and bring your buddies with you into combat with powers that grant you and your allies charges (e.g., Lamb to the Slaughter), or pick powers that are off-turn attacks (e.g. Powerful Warning, Vengeance is Mine) and make charges on your turn, getting off-turn actions via your encounter powers.

[GPuzzle]

The best ED for Warlords is Warmaster.

It is so great, even the fact it doesn't have a bonus to a stat can't stop it from being sky blue.

Spending as many APs as you want on an encounter and being able to give one ally a standard action whenever you AP becomes hilarious when used with something like War Chanter or Flame of Hope or Spell Commander - and it makes it great for Novas.

[killer_monk]

I'll go with 2H weapons for now. If i find.myself getting hit too much I'll switch to one handed and a shield.

I think I'll bump my constitution to a 17 and get the Axe feat that extends critical range. I really like Axe's.

Though I'm uncertain if an executioner Axe is worth a feat.

I like everything Nocturnal gives me, but i don't care for the Fluff. Easily changed or is it something I shouldn't tamper with?

Warpath Berserker is nice. But it's not for me. Especially since I doubt either other player will want to ever charge.

Is the avalanche enchantments available for Axes too?

Warmaster is nice, but I'm mostly looking for an excellent level 24 power from an ED to cherry pick with Eternal Seeker.

[GPuzzle]

I'll go with 2H weapons for now. If i find.myself getting hit too much I'll switch to one handed and a shield.

I think I'll bump my constitution to a 17 and get the Axe feat that extends critical range. I really like Axe's.

Though I'm uncertain if an executioner Axe is worth a feat.

I like everything Nocturnal gives me, but i don't care for the Fluff. Easily changed or is it something I shouldn't tamper with?

Warpath Berserker is nice. But it's not for me. Especially since I doubt either other player will want to ever charge.

Is the avalanche enchantments available for Axes too?

Warmaster is nice, but I'm mostly looking for an excellent level 24 power from an ED to cherry pick with Eternal Seeker.

Nope, nope, nope. First, you shouldn't be thinking "okay, I need to do damage". You should be thinking "I need to make my allies deal more damage". The Executioner Axe is not worth the feat. Nor is the expanded Critical Rate - you lose out on Charisma or Intelligence, and that's bad.

Barbarian|Warlord is a great Hybrid. Loses very little, synergizes very well, deals a lot of damage but also lets his allies deal a lot of damage, tough to take down, very mobile... It's just great combo.

Warmaster's 24? I mean, it's excellent for enabling, and personally, that aren't that many powers you'd want to pick from. So, Warmaster seems like the good choice here.

[Inevitability]

Barbarian|Warlord is a great Hybrid. Loses very little, synergizes very well, deals a lot of damage but also lets his allies deal a lot of damage, tough to take down, very mobile... It's just great combo.

A great Hybrid for experienced players. If you are new, stay away from all that is hybrid. Just trust me on this one.

[GPuzzle]

Good point.

[Tegu8788]

You know I love a hybrid, and that's a solid one, but OP shouldn't use one just yet. He's still too scattered.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I like everything Nocturnal gives me, but i don't care for the Fluff. Easily changed or is it something I shouldn't tamper with?

It is definitely something you should tamper with. Fluff is best seen as one example of an archetype that has that class/racial characteristic/theme/power. If you have a different one that fits, 4e encourages you to use yours.

Grey Wolf

[Epinephrine]

Nope, nope, nope. First, you shouldn't be thinking "okay, I need to do damage". You should be thinking "I need to make my allies deal more damage". The Executioner Axe is not worth the feat. Nor is the expanded Critical Rate - you lose out on Charisma or Intelligence, and that's bad.

He (or she) can aim for whatever he wants. Yes, it's optimal to enable your strikers, but if it's fun for him to play a charging warlord trying to also pitch in, there's nothing wrong with that. My advice is based on helping him with what he wants to do, not with how I would build a warlord to optimally help his party.


I like everything Nocturnal gives me, but i don't care for the Fluff. Easily changed or is it something I shouldn't tamper with?
Sure, re-fluff all you want. Phasing could be going into a ghostly form, transforming into whirling desert sands (or an arctic swirl of snow and ice), fading halfway into the feywild, etc. It's hard to explain as simply being agile, given that you can pass through a 5' thick stone wall with it, but it could have a variety of explanations. Shadow pack members could be pixie-like beings that answer your call, elemental forces animating the surroundings, psychic projections, etc.


Is the avalanche enchantments available for Axes too?
Nope, but there are other good enchantments that affect axes; Vanguard, Rending, Reaper's, etc.
Avalanche is only for Hammers.

[killer_monk]

I also don't want to be a lazylord. That may be an effective role, but it doesn't really fit the Bravura way.

I'd like to be up front, hitting and taking hits. I want to lead by example, not by word.

But that's just a personal preference. Eternal Seeker helps me round myself out without having to hybrid.

And yeah, I'm looking for a bit of damage. Given, I'm not trying to outpace the ranger or even the paladin. (though outdoing the wisdom focused paladin would be nice.) i am trying to secondary as a striker. If i have to take 2H to do that then so be it.

And if I'm still going, and feel like I have a solid grasp of the system, I may respec as a hybrid warlord|barbarian. But not till later.

Is legendary general's 24 not very good? What about Dragonheart's? Any others?

When I refluff something, what is the recommended path? For example, I'm wanting to refluff Nocturnal for something snow/winter related.

And would posting a portion of my backstory help?

[killer_monk]

He (or she) can aim for whatever he wants. Yes, it's optimal to enable your strikers, but if it's fun for him to play a charging warlord trying to also pitch in, there's nothing wrong with that. My advice is based on helping him with what he wants to do, not with how I would build a warlord to optimally help his party.


Sure, re-fluff all you want. Phasing could be going into a ghostly form, transforming into whirling desert sands (or an arctic swirl of snow and ice), fading halfway into the feywild, etc. It's hard to explain as simply being agile, given that you can pass through a 5' thick stone wall with it, but it could have a variety of explanations. Shadow pack members could be pixie-like beings that answer your call, elemental forces animating the surroundings, psychic projections, etc.


Nope, but there are other good enchantments that affect axes; Vanguard, Rending, Reaper's, etc.
Avalanche is only for Hammers.

I'm a guy, but i really appreciate this. You're getting what I mean. What I may want isn't the highest DPR for a team build, but what I wanted was to make sure I don't cripple myself. I'm not trying to be the king of optimization, just to have fun and be good at what I'm trying to do.

Love the Arctic Wind idea, so much so that it's exactly what I was thinking of doing. It's just too good not to use!

[Tegu8788]

Unless you are a Lazylord, which you've said you don't want want to be, you will be doing damage. Not as much as the Paladin or Ranger, but you'll pull your own weight. The Ranger will Twin Strike, a double hit you can't do, and the Paladin should use his mark, getting off-turn damage you can't regularly.

But this isn't to say you can't make big hits yourself. Go ahead, grab the biggest axe you can find. I wouldn't take a feat to get a bigger one just yet, but it never hurts to have extra dice thrown. Remember that accuracy does more damage than weapon dice in a 1 to 1, but some feat combos with an axe can be fun.

And yes, post the backstory. Even if it doesn't make a difference, they are fun to read. Refluffing is easy. As long as the keywords still match what you do, go for it. I had a one-shot with an archer ranger who pretended to be a psychic monk throwing TK punches.

And a thing to look at, just causally, is the Cha secondary Barbarian. It's the inverse (Striker then dabble Leader) of what you want, but it may include things you'd want to poach.

[killer_monk]

Unless you are a Lazylord, which you've said you don't want want to be, you will be doing damage. Not as much as the Paladin or Ranger, but you'll pull your own weight. The Ranger will Twin Strike, a double hit you can't do, and the Paladin should use his mark, getting off-turn damage you can't regularly.

But this isn't to say you can't make big hits yourself. Go ahead, grab the biggest axe you can find. I wouldn't take a feat to get a bigger one just yet, but it never hurts to have extra dice thrown. Remember that accuracy does more damage than weapon dice in a 1 to 1, but some feat combos with an axe can be fun.

And yes, post the backstory. Even if it doesn't make a difference, they are fun to read. Refluffing is easy. As long as the keywords still match what you do, go for it. I had a one-shot with an archer ranger who pretended to be a psychic monk throwing TK punches.

And a thing to look at, just causally, is the Cha secondary Barbarian. It's the inverse (Striker then dabble Leader) of what you want, but it may include things you'd want to poach.

Any Axe feat combos you personally recommend?

And that's pretty great. Totally worth hearing a story about in fact!

Yeah, when I originally saw the Charisma on barbarians I was skeptical, but that being it's secondary stat is what made me decide to take it! It just looks like an amazing and fun combo.

Okay, I've written it in a short rhyme, which frankly sounds like something written for children. But nonetheless, it conveys the story I wanted to tell.

And to note, this rhyme will continue to grow as i use the character, adding new lines at the end of each adventure.


Miko, Sentry of the North.

Far to the north lies a land of ice and snow.
Where mountains grow tall and cold winds blow.
Against such environs few can stand.
Except for Miko, and his hardy band.
The great trees which once stood tall.
Are now decrepit, frozen and poised to fall.

So Miko, the Sentry of Snow, built a wall of permafrost tree.
Looking acrossed which one can know all one can see.
And so he stood against storm after storm.
No fires he kept, no coats to keep warm.
So cold it had gotten that Miko's men froze.
But Miko did not, noticing the loss as the morning sun rose.

The people all laughed at poor Miko's crew.
But Miko just grinned, for endurance he knew.
One day he'd return in a rain of hail and blood.
To the land they all mocked, to the permafrost wood.

To sum this all up in a much longer story.
Miko is was a leader of a group of sentries at a far northern outpost. He helped to construct a fort made of the surrounding trees that were frozen solid, using his Axe to hew them into shape.

One night a particularly brutal blizzard blew through and, since the more central nobility was less than kind to him and his men, they lacked anything to keep warm with.

Despite ice being an excellent insulator, his men froze. But Miko was a bit more hardy. Being forced to return to the southern lands to report the death of his men got him a lot of ridicule, especially considering how they died.

Even though him and his men had fought the worst the north had to offer in terms of wildlife for years, he still hadn't earned any respect with the nobility. So he plans to one day return and truly conquer the north, and the nobility of the south.

[GPuzzle]

You accidentally went off on a tangent that's great for you, who should be looking for accuracy and damage.

Permafrost/Frost Cheese.

Using a way to generate cold damage, the Wintertouched Heroic Feat and the Lasting Frost feat - you get CA and +5 damage, which your allies can build around to get more damage, since it's vulnerability.

The obvious way is to take a Frost Weapon. But since you want to multiclass Barbarian, Winter Fury is perfect for you. Its key feature is its level 16 feature, which makes it so your powers without a type deal Frost Damage. This allows you to pick something like a Chieftain's Weapon.

By the way, take Inevitable Wave as one of your at-wills, and Brash Assault as the other. One gives you some nice bonuses, because now your allies gain bonuses when they charge (Inevitable Wave), and the other has a small feat that you should take - Harlequin Style. What it does is simple - whenever you hit with that power, you gain a bonus to all defenses equal to your Charisma modifier. Attack the target that the Paladin has marked for added insanity.

[Tegu8788]

Nice backstory. It could certainly fit into your idea.


But am I the only one that's seeing this scream Berzerker?



But as Gpuzzle mentioned, Frost Cheese would actually be a good combo for you to pick up. It boosts your own damage, as well as enable your party to do more damage by giving monsters a vulnerability. It also means that, if everyone does use the Frost cheese, you could save them a feat, which is a nice thing to do. However, I prefer not to wait until 16th level for things to work. In my mind, if the build isn't functional by level 4, it's not worth much in actual play. Grab that Frost Weapon for now if you want to go this route, just realize it'll take a while to get it all done.

[killer_monk]

My At Wills were Brash Assault and Wolf Pack Tactics. My Encounter is Luring Focus, and my Daily is Lead by Example.

Far from optimized, but I'm getting places.

Our combat yesterday didn't go so good either. I found out the paladin has a rocking 16 in most of his stats, and the ranger doesn't enjoy engaging.

So it took me 6 rounds to beat a level 4 human to death with a paladin who barely does damage and rarely hits, and a ranger who was elsewhere at the time. Still level 1 too.

Thank the GM that brash assault was really speeding things up.


Anyways, I really like winter fury. I feel like I'm on really netting one good feature from it though, while Nocturnal gets me a lot of phasing stuff, and at least one or two neat powers as well as a free charge on an AP (Fits Bravura perfectly!). Is there any other way to get Frost damage besides weapons? Any items or something? And how good is immobilization? If not I'll heavily consider my options between the two.

Scream Berserker? Maybe. I don't play a particularly angry character, just one who's all too anxious to jump in and smash faces. But I would like to hear any advice you have for Berserking.

For now I'll leave frostcheese, since I can't use it for a long time anyways. But I'll probably eventually pick it up.

Can anyone direct me to the stats for the summoned pack creatures? I know you get 5, but I'm not sure exactly what they are supposed to do?

[Epinephrine]

Thank the GM that brash assault was really speeding things up.
Yes, enabling your allies only works if they have anything to enable :P


Can anyone direct me to the stats for the summoned pack creatures? I know you get 5, but I'm not sure exactly what they are supposed to do?
They are conjurations, so they follow the rules for conjurations; basically, they don't have stats. They exist in the squares that they occupy; enemies can't move through them, and they flank with your allies. That's all that they do. No attacks, no defenses, can't be harmed by anything. You can use them to block an enemy from moving away from you, to pin an enemy into a corner (if they're already there), to pop up flanks for everyone in the party (yay! Combat advantage!).

It's not amazing, but it can certainly change the way a combat flows. Conjure them as a minor, move them if you wish with a move action, and you can block doorways, fence enemies apart, etc.

[killer_monk]

It says they sustain as a minor action. How long can i sustain them for?

[Inevitability]

I believe until the end of the encounter or for 5 minutes is the general rule, but if the power says otherwise, use that.

[Tegu8788]

... or until you stop sustaining by spending a minor action each and every turn.

[killer_monk]

Okay, so I've got a few questions:

When I AP, and i have the Nocturnal AP, does my Bravura presence trigger on both attacks or just one?

I've heard a lot about berserker's badges. Is this an item I really need?

Is there a way to get a Barbarian At Will without paragon multiclassing?

I'd love to take Invincible Vanguard (mostly because I've Googled if a few times and nobody seems to have actually used it. And it looks like exactly what I want.) but i cant afford to drop Eternal Seeker. Any thoughts that don't involve paragon multiclassing?

I'd also like to thank GPuzzle for the Brash Assault At Will suggestion. It's really paying for itself. But is there anyway to start using my powers at the end of a charge?

[GPuzzle]

Okay, so I've got a few questions:

When I AP, and i have the Nocturnal AP, does my Bravura presence trigger on both attacks or just one?

I've heard a lot about berserker's badges. Is this an item I really need?

Is there a way to get a Barbarian At Will without paragon multiclassing?

I'd love to take Invincible Vanguard (mostly because I've Googled if a few times and nobody seems to have actually used it. And it looks like exactly what I want.) but i cant afford to drop Eternal Seeker. Any thoughts that don't involve paragon multiclassing?

I'd also like to thank GPuzzle for the Brash Assault At Will suggestion. It's really paying for itself. But is there anyway to start using my powers at the end of a charge?

Your Bravura Presence doesn't trigger on your attacks. So, no.

They make it so you don't provoke OAs while charging - it saves up a lot of resources simply because you can move around the battlefield without a care in the world, because you won't be taking damage.

Hybriding, but even though it's quite hard to screw up a Barbarian|Warlord, I'd reccomend that you do not do it.

You can use Invincible Vanguard - you're a Martial Class!

Thanks! Brash Assault+Harlequin Style is awesome.

The only way to use a power at the end of a charge is:

a) That power counts as an MBA (Eldritch Strike, for example).

b) That power says that you can use it in place of an MBA at the end of a charge (Marauder's Rush, for example).

c) That power is an encounter power and you have the Boots of the Mighty Charge (its encounter power allows you to use an encounter power such as Hail of Steel at the end of a charge).

[killer_monk]

It's only a level 2 magic item, right? So i should definitely get one ASAP?

Understood. I'll wait on going hybrid, at least until I've memorized the rules.

Although I'm able to use invincible Vanguard, I'm not sure I want to lose my barbarian stuff. Actually. I'm definitely sure I don't want to lose it. I think I'll take it if i ever decide to hybrid. Has anyone here ever used this ED?

I don't have Harlequin Style yet. I can't seem to find it in any of my books?

Okay, thanks! I'll just have to work on which powers I can use on a charge.

[Inevitability]

It's only a level 2 magic item, right? So i should definitely get one ASAP?


If you are going to charge, yes you should.


Understood. I'll wait on going hybrid, at least until I've memorized the rules.

A wise decision.


I don't have Harlequin Style yet. I can't seem to find it in any of my books?

It's in dragon magazine 373.



Okay, thanks! I'll just have to work on which powers I can use on a charge.

Amusingly, I believe you can use any of the enabling powers. I don't know, but I think the mental image of a warlord dashing across the battlefield and then just commanding someone else to attack is hilarious.

[Epinephrine]

Okay, thanks! I'll just have to work on which powers I can use on a charge.

This is one spot where the combat style feats can help; some of the styles offer the ability to use certain powers on a charge, though they are typically paired with a weapon, so it might affect weapon choice. Otherwise, very few powers can be used on a charge, most of them will have a line that says "this power can be used instead of a melee basic attack when charging" or something similar, but the style feats can add several other powers to the list.

[Tegu8788]

Just so things are clear, you can't decide later to be a hybrid. Hybrid is your "class." Now, you may be able to rebuild your character later as a hybrid if your DM allows, but normally it's a new character.

[killer_monk]

I'll get it as soon as i can.

I had planned on charging into combat only to get close enough to Inspiring Word my allies. But hitting people with an Axe is also good.

Okay. I'll just have to search for Charge powers.

Yeah, but I'm sure the DM will give us a single rewrite for our characters. Especially since all learning the system.

[Tegu8788]

Also, in case this hasn't been clarified, Charge in 4e is a specific action. You can certainly rush into battle, but that's not the same as Charging in. A Charge is a standard action where you have to move between 2 squares up to your full speed directly towards the target and make a (usually) MBA against the target from the square you can first make the attack (no running past while charging, you gotta stop as soon as you can hit).

[masteraleph]

Also, in case this hasn't been clarified, Charge in 4e is a specific action. You can certainly rush into battle, but that's not the same as Charging in. A Charge is a standard action where you have to move between 2 squares up to your full speed directly towards the target and make a (usually) MBA against the target from the square you can first make the attack (no running past while charging, you gotta stop as soon as you can hit).

This is not quite correct (and was changed/clarified in the rules compendium). You need to move at least 2 squares, and each one needs to move you closer to the enemy, but the "directly towards the target" is not a requirement any more, nor is stopping. For example, you could take the following path (A is you, E is enemy, B is an enemy who could be in your way otherwise), avoiding an Opportunity Attack:

XXXAXXX
XXXXAXX
XXXXXAX
XXXBXAX
XXXXXAX
XXXXAXX
XXXEXXX

Also, if you have a reach weapon (or otherwise have reach), you could stop in a nonadjacent square, or adjacent; it's up to you. A pixie could stop adjacent or in the enemy's square, though that last movement (from adjacent to their square) would cost an opportunity attack unless you have something like Badge of the Berserker preventing that.

[Epinephrine]

For charges, I had previously mentioned the Ogremight style; it involves two-handed hammers or maces, but has critical hits on 19-20 on charges, and the feat reads" You can use a power associated with this feat in place of a melee basic attack when charging. Associated Powers: Blood Begets Blood, Headstrong Bravery, Sacrificial Lure, Thunderous Fury, Warlord's Strike"

Something to keep in mind :)

[killer_monk]

Yeah, I still have to check the style feats. I haven't had a chance yet. Thanks though!

Thanks. I waa actually going to bring that up. So i can weave my way around foes when trying to get to the enemy i want to charge? Good. Very good.

I have a couple more questions geared specifically for you guys:

Is there a magic item, feat or barbarian/warlord power that allows me to shift more than one square at a time in combat?

On a turn i charge; I can take my move action and minor action before, not after, correct? If so, am i not effectively taking a double move action AND a MBA/Select Power?

I read through the Combat chapter in the PHB again last night. I believe i have a firm grasp on all the rules now, though I'd like to thank you all for answering my previous rules-related questions.

I'd like to ask what makes using a hybrid character so difficult for a player who is new to 4E? I had a chance to read through the hybrid section of the PHB3, and it doesnt seem all that difficult. I'm just curious, and would like to know all of your perspectives.

Also, in the case i do go hybrid, I'm cosidering using Hide Armor. Is this a preferable choice over Scale? Especially considering i plan on finishing with a Constitution of 18? Which Feats are best for this? (besides Second Skin)

I'm going to get Heroes of Shadow, and Heroes of the Fallen Lands. Is the other Essentials book necessary?

My group wants to play Forgotten Realms, but I've heard an awful lot of hate about it. My group hadn't played it much with Pathfinder (we prefered Galorian over Toril anyways) but I've heard people say the campaign guide was "shallow" and "butchered the setting". What do you all think? Is it just more unnecessary bias towards 4E?

[Epinephrine]

Thanks. I waa actually going to bring that up. So i can weave my way around foes when trying to get to the enemy i want to charge? Good. Very good.
Yes, you simply need to get closer each step.


Is there a magic item, feat or barbarian/warlord power that allows me to shift more than one square at a time in combat?
It is hard to get this ability; rogues (and thus multiclass rogues) have a way early, I think Long Step at epic tier is available for everyone. There is also magical armour in paragon tier.


On a turn i charge; I can take my move action and minor action before, not after, correct? If so, am i not effectively taking a double move action AND a MBA/Select Power? Yes. With a +1 bonus to hit.


I'd like to ask what makes using a hybrid character so difficult for a player who is new to 4E? I had a chance to read through the hybrid section of the PHB3, and it doesnt seem all that difficult. I'm just curious, and would like to know all of your perspectives.
It's not really that difficult, it's just that in general making a hybrid is one of the best ways to make an ineffective character. Often what you lose via hybridizing exceeds what you gain. For example, a Barbarian/Warlord hybrid doesn't start with a warlord presence (which is a big part of your effect in enabling allies) and even if they spend a feat on getting it back, they would only have the presence for one ally's action point per fight. You would lose proficiency with chain armour, and have one fewer trained skill, and one fewer heal per day (two heals less, later). Compared to a barbarian, you lose the barbarian armoured agility (which allows them decent AC in light armour) and their feral might, and you lose 1 HP per level (gaining only 5 per level instead of 6), lose a healing surge, and lose out a bit on starting HP. And that's actually not too bad, Barbarian/Warlord comes out ok, able to patch up their AC relatively easily and not leaning too much on the lost abilities, and they share a primary stat.


Also, in the case i do go hybrid, I'm cosidering using Hide Armor. Is this a preferable choice over Scale? Especially considering i plan on finishing with a Constitution of 18? Which Feats are best for this? (besides Second Skin)
Light armour relies on your Dexterity or Intelligence to get a reasonable AC. Given that you are investing in Constitution and Charisma, you don't have much left to get a decent AC with. To be competitive, you want to boost your chosen light armour-boosting defense every time you have a chance. Barbarians can get away with a little less investment, thanks to armoured agility, but they still need to put some effort into it. You'll do much better in Scale. You might even invest in plate armour later, since it sounds like you'll have the strength and constitution for it.

[masteraleph]

Yeah, I still have to check the style feats. I haven't had a chance yet. Thanks though!

Thanks. I waa actually going to bring that up. So i can weave my way around foes when trying to get to the enemy i want to charge? Good. Very good.

Yes, as long as each square brings you closer to the enemy you want to charge (i.e. from 5 away to 4 away to 3 away etc.)


I have a couple more questions geared specifically for you guys:

Is there a magic item, feat or barbarian/warlord power that allows me to shift more than one square at a time in combat?

Not off the top of my head as a general thing (at least, not in heroic- there's an Epic feat that gives +1 to shifts). There are the Boots of the Fencing Master, which grant a minor action encounter power to shift two, and whenever you shift you get a +1 item bonus to AC and Reflex. They're level 7.


On a turn i charge; I can take my move action and minor action before, not after, correct? If so, am i not effectively taking a double move action AND a MBA/Select Power?

Correct.


I read through the Combat chapter in the PHB again last night. I believe i have a firm grasp on all the rules now, though I'd like to thank you all for answering my previous rules-related questions.

I'd like to ask what makes using a hybrid character so difficult for a player who is new to 4E? I had a chance to read through the hybrid section of the PHB3, and it doesnt seem all that difficult. I'm just curious, and would like to know all of your perspectives.

The main issue is that Hybrids tend to lose more than they gain. For example, it's almost always a bad idea to hybrid two strikers together- most striker hybrids get their striker feature only on class powers. You generally lose most of your class features from both classes, and it costs a feat to Hybrid Talent to get one back, and even then, it's not necessarily the full feature (often restricted in some way). You also get the lesser of the two Armor proficiencies, which is an issue if they're significantly different. You end up with at least 1 encounter, 1 utility, and 1 daily from each class, and you might not want them. You need to make sure that the stats work together. In short, it's really easy to build a character as a hybrid that's worse than a non-hybrid.

There are a few circumstances which people tend to do hybrids in:

1) Striker|Cleric. They grab Battle Cleric's Lore to get Scale Proficiency and a Shield bonus, and there are a couple of non-standard action Strength based powers that people like to grab. Other Striker|Leader hybrids work, but not as well most of the time.

2) Defender|Warlock (or occasionally other thing |Warlock). Warlocks have Eldritch Strike, which is an MBA that can be either Charisma or Constitution based and slides.

3) Defender|Striker. Some of the Defender classes have multiattack powers (Fighter, Warden, Swordmage are all examples). Swordmage's Aegis of Assault gets you a possible extra attack in a given round. Fighter has strong dailies. On the Striker side, Barbarian does well (its striker feature isn't really an extra damage feature, and its daily powers are terrible). Executioner also does, since its striker feature works on MBAs (this is particularly popular for Charging builds). Note that not all defenders and not all strikers work for these combinations.

In short, hybrid is really useful when you really understand the system and can hybrid to grab a particular awesome thing, but if you don't know it well, you make a weaker character. A Barblord can be decent, but what are you really trying to gain?


Also, in the case i do go hybrid, I'm cosidering using Hide Armor. Is this a preferable choice over Scale? Especially considering i plan on finishing with a Constitution of 18? Which Feats are best for this? (besides Second Skin)

I have to be honest- don't go CON with a Barbarian or Warlord. You need the Will defense, and CON double stacks with STR for Fort. defense.


I'm going to get Heroes of Shadow, and Heroes of the Fallen Lands. Is the other Essentials book necessary?

My group wants to play Forgotten Realms, but I've heard an awful lot of hate about it. My group hadn't played it much with Pathfinder (we prefered Galorian over Toril anyways) but I've heard people say the campaign guide was "shallow" and "butchered the setting". What do you all think? Is it just more unnecessary bias towards 4E?

I'd really go with a subscription to D&D Insider instead, to at least have access to all of the materials.

[killer_monk]

At 21st Level my Con score will be 16, assuming I never put any points into it. I'd have the same AC bonus as Scale if i put 2 points into it. As well as making my lost healing surge. I'd also no longer have that pesky speed penalty.

Plus then I'm automatically eligible for any Axe feats I may want.

But I digress, i know constitution is generally not worth it for me. But I should still be a decent in all my other stats too, even after only a 2 point drop.

Anyways, I'll take your word for it that scale is considerably better. For now that is what I'm wearing, and it's working great so far.

And I wanted hybrid for all the powers. I actually wouldn't mind have at least one power from each class in each power type.

Also, can't i pick up feral might again with a feat? Losing my Bravura sucks, but i can already see the other players never taking the gamble. Which is unfortunate since I usually roll high.

When I move diagonally, each score counts as 1 square, right? It's not like in 3.x where it costed a square and a half of movement?

Other than that I'm really appreciating the fast responses. It helps me know I'm not screwing up too much! (well, I'm super optimized already compared to the other two players. So there's at least that.)

[Inevitability]

When I move diagonally, each score counts as 1 square, right? It's not like in 3.x where it costed a square and a half of movement?

Each square you move is 1 square of movement, even diagonally.

[Epinephrine]

Armoours get hidden "masterwork" bonuses as you level up. The bonuses for heavy armours are greater than those for light armours, so you need to increase your attributes to keep up in light armour.

If you start with a 14 Dexterity in Hide armour, you have +2 Dex and +3 from Hide, for +5 total (AC 15).
Scale will grant you AC 17, a 2-point advantage.

As you gain levels, scale armour goes up in protection, so a level 26+ suit of scale provides a base AC bonus of +13, as well as the enhancement bonus.
Hide also gains a little bit of a bonus, going from +3 to +5.

At level 26, then, in +6 magical armour, your scale is now worth AC 42
The hide armour (assuming you didn't invest in Dexterity, and only have the bumps at 11 and 21) is worth AC 37, so the gap has widened to a 5-point gap.

If you invest your attribute increases (4, 8, 14, 18, and an epic destiny) you would break even, at AC 42.

This is why the light armour is a bad idea; without continual investment in Intelligence or Dexterity you will fall behind. The barbarian makes up for this by having a scaling bonus to AC in light armour; they can invest in other attributes and maintain their relative AC.

Edit - also, the other players should take the gamble, but it has nothing to do with how you roll. When they spend an action point, they make an attack roll; if they take the gamble and hit, they get a free basic attack. If they take the gamble and miss, they grant CA. Typically players hit well over 50% of the time. For an action point, you may well take it when you have a very good chance to connect, to ensure that you punish the foe; a prone enemy while you have a power bonus to attack is a good time to use your action point. Getting more attacks when the foe is vulnerable is a good thing.

[killer_monk]

Okay. Thanks dire Stirge!

Aren't there quite a few Feats that boost Light Armor AC though? But I see what your saying. Shame that light armor isn't better.

Is there any way to get the Barbarian feature that boosts light armor bonus?

I think the other players are just plain scared of dying. They don't feel confident in their abilities yet, so maybe there's hope in the future.

[Epinephrine]

No, not many feats to boost AC, and the ones that exist would be a feat bonus, so they don't stack. At 11th there are a variety of feats to gain a +1 feat bonus to AC, I think they're available for all heavy armours, for shields, and for Hide.

Light armour isn't bad though; you keep up fine if you invest in it, some of the best ACs in the game are light armour classes (e.g. Swordmage with a starting 20 Int in cloth, no shield, holding a sword, with the unarmored agility feat has a base AC of 20, just like a paladin in plate with heavy shield)

The only way to get the barbarian AC benefit is to be a barbarian (or a hybrid barbarian, and to use a feat to pick it up via Hybrid Talent (note that you only get to take Hybrid Talent once, so you are picking it over something else).

[Tegu8788]

When you look at the Hybrid Talent options, you can pick any one of those you want from either class you are hybriding. For a feat. Once. And you get the hybrid version, not the full. Which you can't trade out for a different full version you could normally swab with. Warlock, for example, can get a Pact, but they don't get the Boon, or the At-Will. All they get is access to other feats and riders on powers.

Hybrid is great for getting a feature from one class into another. But not all the features.

[masteraleph]

Hybrid is great for getting a feature from one class into another. But not all the features.

This is a great way of putting it, and I was trying to say that earlier. Examples of popular hybrids:

X|Warlock: the goal here is to grab Eldritch Strike for an MBA and Warlock's Curse once per turn for extra damage. They don't really care about Warlock otherwise. This is often worth it for something like a Swordmage, who otherwise would need to spend a feat for an MBA (and SMs don't lose much when they hybrid, actually). This is really a build about improving the X hybrided with the Warlock.

Striker|Cleric: the goal here is to grab Battle Cleric's Lore for Scale proficiency and a +2 shield bonus without holding a shield. This is about building a better striker. (Note- Invoker also can get better with Cleric, for the same reasons + Cleric grants holy symbol proficiency).

Striker|Defender: The goal here is either to grab a particular power or to grab the Defender's punishment mechanism for extra damage. This is about a better striker.

X|Executioner (usually Warlock)- The goal here is to add extra damage to MBAs, usually charges. This is about a better striker.

In the case of Barbarian|Warlord, which is what you're asking for, Barbarian doesn't make the Warlord any better. The Warlord already has plenty good base armor, and Barbarian's powers aren't really better than the Warlord's. Warlords have great leader powers at pretty much every level. There are good reasons to play a Barbarian hybrid, but they're mostly about making the Barbarian a better striker, not the other class better.

[Tegu8788]

The other reason to hybrid is to fill out roles that aren't there. If I recall, and I'm so tired I can't really brain right now, you already a fighter and a ranger. You are looking to be tougher and do more damage, the exact roles you already have.

Now, a Warlord goes great with just about anything. A Sorcerer could add some minion popping, a Warlock some single target control. Neither are chargers or have innate primal flair, but refluffing is a thing, and Controller is the missing role. With higher Int a Wizard would make a wonder match, Wis an Invoker or Druid. And Druid beast form powers mix well with Lazylord, though that's not your style if I recall.

[MeeposFire]

Well you could choose to take a combo that has decent basic attacks and then use attacks that allow to attack along with your allies.

A level one example is "vengeance is mine" which allows you to make a basic attack and allows an ally to move and attack as well. If you have a decent basic attack (from either high str, a feat such as int blade master, or a power like grasping claws from the druid class) there are enough powers out there to allow you to attack directly every round while also enabling others to attack either with you or off your turn.

It isn't really a lazy warlord by most definitions since you are building it to allow you to attack it just makes heavy use of enabling.

[killer_monk]

Alright.

We are getting another player in the group too. So i wonder what role he'll choose.

To note, the paladin is going for a more leader/defender build. Or is trying to.

That's why I was hoping for a striker/leader build.

And the ranger is just a TWF Ranger. So your standard super striker.

The new person is a good friend of the group, and i think he'll either want a leader or controller role. Possible a mix of the two, focusing Leader.

I'm not sure what that means for me as a Warlord yet though. I guess we'll see.

And thanks for all the answers on hybrids!

[Inevitability]

Alright.

We are getting another player in the group too. So i wonder what role he'll choose.

To note, the paladin is going for a more leader/defender build. Or is trying to.

That's why I was hoping for a striker/leader build.

And the ranger is just a TWF Ranger. So your standard super striker.

The new person is a good friend of the group, and i think he'll either want a leader or controller role. Possible a mix of the two, focusing Leader.

I'm not sure what that means for me as a Warlord yet though. I guess we'll see.

And thanks for all the answers on hybrids!

Just for the new player, try to nudge him towards the controller role. Maybe show him the druid? Most players will like the versatility, and druids do gain a few neat buffs.