Paragon Paths for Heroic Tier

[SpawnOfMorbo]

So I been chatting with a few friends about 4e and a common theme came up. We all pretty much hate higher level playing but we love Paragon Paths.

In 3.P a lot of the time we would gestalt a Prestige Class onto a base class from level to spice things up a bit and make everyone very different/special. Themes and backgrounds in 4e are all nice and everything but give a smaller impact, we like a bit more oomph to our PCs.

So I've been thinking of making some general rules for allowing Paragon Paths to be used from level 1 to Level 8 since we tend not to go past level 8.

Basic Rules

Level 11 PP features are gained at level 1
Level 12 PP features are gained at level 2
Level 16 PP features are gained at level 4
Level 20 PP features are gained at level 8

Anytime you gain permanent or encounter length resistance to an element reduce it by half. If it increases a resistance you get from another source then increase it by half of what the PP path says it increases (an increase of 5 is now an increase of 2).

If a power gives ongoing damage that is represented by a fixed number (ongoing 15 necrotic damage) reduce this ongoing damage by half.

Anytime an attack has damage, reduce that damage by 1 |Dice| or 1 |W| to a minimum of 1 |Die| or 1 |W|.


Are there any specific paragon paths that could wreck this idea? I don't have all my books on me but from what I can see from PHB2 PP bringing these Paragon Paths into heroic tier shouldn't be much of a problem.

[Mando Knight]

Champion of Order and Hospitaler.

Then again, those are two extremely good PPs in general, and basically the whole point of playing PHB1-only Paladin at all.

Champion of Order, for example, gives the Strength Paladin a very strong disable (Certain Justice has a massive attack bonus and only deals 1[W] anyway... and sets up a potentially encounter-long daze + weaken) and an attack of opportunity as an extra source of mark retribution damage (on top of Divine Challenge's base damage).

[Anlashok]

Isn't that just what a Theme is?

[Kurald Galain]

Are there any specific paragon paths that could wreck this idea?

I think it is fine in general, but there are a handful of paragon paths that are overpowered even at paragon tier, so you probably shouldn't allow those at heroic.

Candidates include Battle Captain, Battle Engineer, Champion of Order, Divine Oracle, Entrancing Mystic, Flame of Hope, Hospitaler, Justicar, Kulkor Arms Master, Life Singer, Malec-Keth Jannisary, Master Thief, Morninglord, Voice of Thunder, and War Chanter. Still, that's only fifteen out of hundreds of paths available.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I think it is fine in general, but there are a handful of paragon paths that are overpowered even at paragon tier, so you probably shouldn't allow those at heroic.

Candidates include Battle Captain, Battle Engineer, Champion of Order, Divine Oracle, Entrancing Mystic, Flame of Hope, Hospitaler, Justicar, Kulkor Arms Master, Life Singer, Malec-Keth Jannisary, Master Thief, Morninglord, Voice of Thunder, and War Chanter. Still, that's only fifteen out of hundreds of paths available.


Champion of Order and Hospitaler.

Then again, those are two extremely good PPs in general, and basically the whole point of playing PHB1-only Paladin at all.

Champion of Order, for example, gives the Strength Paladin a very strong disable (Certain Justice has a massive attack bonus and only deals 1[W] anyway... and sets up a potentially encounter-long daze + weaken) and an attack of opportunity as an extra source of mark retribution damage (on top of Divine Challenge's base damage).

I (with input from my group of course) will either make new rules to accommodate the power paragon paths or just keep them on a ban list.

Is what makes them strong their features or their powers? One of the ideas we were throwing around is just giving the PC the PP features and not any of the powers. This way there is less to keep track of and it comes off more like bonus feats (firstborn of Moradin's feature is actually a heroic feat now, if you get hit by a crit you get a saving throw to negate the crit... Love that feat).


Isn't that just what a Theme is?

Sort of, except PP give more than what themes do. Most themes don't pack the punch that Paragon Paths do.

[Kurald Galain]

Is what makes them strong their features or their powers?

Could be either of them. Things to watch out for are giving bonuses to hit equal to an ability modifier (e.g. Battle Captain does that on his inspiring words), and debuffs that last the entire combat with no save (e.g. Champion of Order's L11 power), and bonuses that automatically apply to every single attack you make (e.g. Divine Oracle's roll-twice ability).

[Mando Knight]

Could be either of them. Things to watch out for are giving bonuses to hit equal to an ability modifier (e.g. Battle Captain does that on his inspiring words), and debuffs that last the entire combat with no save (e.g. Champion of Order's L11 power), and bonuses that automatically apply to every single attack you make (e.g. Divine Oracle's roll-twice ability).

Broadly speaking, too much damage from any one source is only a concern with some Striker paths, particularly since adding a paragon path early is already giving your team a significant buff to their effectiveness.

As mentioned in the quote, all the other effects, which are completely untouched by the originally suggested adjustments, are generally the more powerful effects, and usually the reason people pick certain paths.

[Yakk]

I'd push it back a touch:

Level 4: Level 11 PP features (encounter attack, features)
Level 6: Level 12 PP features (utility)
Level 7: Level 15 PP features (features)
Level 8: Level 19 PP features (daily)

[MrUberGr]

Why not start out leve l8 or 10 if you don't get past them? What is it that you hat in the high levels? Aren't you tired of fighting goblins? :P

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Why not start out leve l8 or 10 if you don't get past them? What is it that you hat in the high levels? Aren't you tired of fighting goblins? :P

Goblins? My level 1 games fought a Lich and a group of Beholders.

Fun times.

Level shouldn't dictate what you fight, a good DM can modify their games. Heck a moderately decent DM like me can modify 4e pretty well.

The problem with above level 8 is classes start getting troublesome. To many options and to many little things that slow down the game... Like playing tier 1 high level in 3.5, which can be fun but tiresome.

After chatting with the group we will be dropping the powers from the PP and just giving classes the features. The features are really what makes a PP special.

[Sol]

Too many options and to many little things that slow down the game...

Of course, from the other end, I find below level 8 to have way too few options to be interesting. Lots of moving parts doesn't automatically mean slower, though of course there's a learning curve.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Of course, from the other end, I find below level 8 to have way too few options to be interesting. Lots of moving parts doesn't automatically mean slower, though of course there's a learning curve.

Well yeah, I'm not saying other people can't prefer higher than 8, heck I like it from time to time. Learning curve has nothing to do with my group or people I know, we just don't prefer higher than 8. Plus really most of 4e higher levels is just maor numbahs. The parts that are really juicy are the PP and ED features.

The idea of giving the features of PP to heroric tier is to give more interesting class features and such to lower level platers.

We actually floated the idea of turning 30 levels of 4e into 10 levels of 4e. We will be working on a way to introduce the powers of PPs.

Level 1: As Normal (Free Expertise and Defense feat)

Level 2: PP Feature 1

Level 4: PP Feature 2

Level 6: PP Feature 3

Level 8: Epic Destiny Feature (21st level) + Fluff

Level 9: Epic Destiny Feature (24th level)

Level 10: Epic Destiny Feature (30th level)

This isn't for everyone but I'll be going into more details on this and perhaps a few other things. Might make a setting out of this using inherent bonuses from Darksun and get rid of the +'s on magic items.... Hmmm..

[Yakk]

I just had a thought.

Instead of getting a Paragon Path at a fixed time, make them in-world rewards.

Each Paragon Path is broken down into 6 steps:
Feature 1
Feature 2 (both level 11)
Encounter Attack Power (level 11)
Utility Power (level 12)
Feature 3 (Level 15)
Daily Power (level 19)

Each level you gain 1 step of the above, unless there are more steps than you have levels left until 8, in which case you gain 2 or more.

If you enter the Paragon Path at level 8, you gain 6 features immediately.
If you enter the Paragon Path at level 7, you gain 3 immediately, and 3 next level.
If you enter the Paragon Path at level 6, you gain 2 per level (including 2 immediately).
If you enter the Paragon Path at level 5, you gain 2 immediately, 2 at level 6, then 1 each level afterwards.
If you enter the Paragon Pat at level 4, you gain 2 immediately, then 1 per level afterwards.
If you enter the Paragon Path at level 3 or before, you gain 1 step per level.

Now, in order to gain access to your Paragon Path, you have to join some organization, achieve some end, or otherwise story-justify the new Paragon Path.

[Angel Bob]

Goblins? My level 1 games fought a Lich and a group of Beholders.

Fun times.

Level shouldn't dictate what you fight, a good DM can modify their games. Heck a moderately decent DM like me can modify 4e pretty well.

Okay, now, you simply must tell me how you managed that.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Okay, now, you simply must tell me how you managed that.

Give the monsters attack and defense numbers fitting for level 1 monsters.

Make some of the beholders minions (or 10 - 15 HP minions... Depends on the group).

The lich can keep all their abilities with the numbers changed (perhaps get rid of the aura thing they have), they are pretty challenging but not impossible. The beholders get 2 rays per round (instead of 3) and change the status effects that they cause to be more in line with lower level creatures.

Drop the HP and resistances a bit but leave their immunities.

A standard group of 5 took out 1 Lich, 2 Beholders, 4 Beholder Minions, and human cultist that were being turned into the beholders...

Twas one of the most epic fights I ever seen from a level 1 group.*

Edit:* in any edition of D&D.

[ScrivenerofDoom]

I prefer to stick to Heroic Tier campaigns for a range of reasons so one of the things I did was reduced the level of monsters to match their hit dice in 1E (with a few exceptions).

That gives me a lot more creatures to play with and a lot more variety than simply kobolds and goblins at level 1.

The other thing I did was to create lower-level elite and solo versions of higher level monsters. For example, my hill giants are level 8 brutes (matching their 8 hit dice in 1E). A level 8 standard monster in 4E has the same XP value as a level 4 elite monster... which means I also have hill giants that are level 4 elite brutes. Going up a couple of levels, my frost giants are level 10 brutes and a level 10 standard monster has the same XP value as a level 6 elite brute or a level 1 solo brute. With the online monster builder these are all pretty simple to stat up.

Anyway, it means I can throw a lich (level 11 artillery = level 7 elite artillery = level 2 solo artillery) at a level 1 party (level 2 solo) but also have them fight it again at mid-Heroic (level 7 elite) with several allies and then near the end of Heroic (level 11 artillery) with even more allies.

Similarly, a hobgoblin is a level 1 soldier and that has the same XP value as a level 9 minion soldier. My players particularly enjoy this because it shows that their characters have progressed in power: while five hobgoblins gave them grief at level 1, at level 9 they're fighting 20 of them, with the same individual XP value, but they're craving through them like a hot knife through butter.

In short, it's another way of tinkering with the Heroic Tier, rather than simply boosting the power of the PCs, to make it the focus of the campaign.