Monk/Wizard vs Wizard/Initiate of the Sevenfold

[m149307]

I am curious as to which of these builds are stronger. I am not allowed cheese (at all.) I am level 8 playing in the Forgotten Realms setting. I have 30 point buy with 18-20 taking 2 points instead of 1 (so like from 18-19 score would be 2, then 19-20 would be another 2). I get feats at 1st level and every even level after that with full health at each level (d6 min, so wizard instantly get 6 at each level without a Con score). So... anyone wanna help me decide which to run?

[eggynack]

The initiate is stronger. By a lot. Just going straight wizard 20 would be significantly more powerful than a wizard/monk, and a wizard/initiate of the sevenfold veil is significantly more powerful than a straight wizard 20.

[cosmonuts]

Unless I'm missing something, this wiz/IotSV is better.

eggynack said as much. :smallredface:

Although, there was a thread recently where a monk build was submitted to fight elder evils. Rubik submitted the build IIRC, although I don't remember much else about the thread.

[m149307]

Ok, so I can go into IoSV at level 9 (I think). What kind of spells should I cast to complement the initiate? Damage spells, Debuff, buff, etc

[Zweisteine]

The first and fifth commandments of optimization (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=517.0):

Thou shalt not give up caster levels.

IotSV is better. By a lot.

[Reathin]

Ok, so I can go into IoSV at level 9 (I think). What kind of spells should I cast to complement the initiate? Damage spells, Debuff, buff, etc

Well, since you're going into it as a Wizard, by level 9 you should be taking in a considerable amount of gold with any decent amount of adventuring, which will give you a big pile of scrolls to learn from.

At level 9, Wizards get some nice toys. Teleport's a great option, as it lets you get around many challenges and make it MUCH harder to murder your entire party. Wall of Stone's got tons of options, cover-wise (or imprisoning your opponents). While trapping an opponent with that requires a reflex save, it doesn't use a mechanism that can be resisted by many creatures (it's not mind affecting, paralysis etc.). Permanency is nice for a few things, but make sure you have spells compatible with it before taking it. Persistent image is endless fun, if you know your opponent isn't likely to see through them.

Below that, consider taking spells like Stoneskin at level 4 to increase survivability, Fly for mobility options (eliminate melee as a problem), Haste (excellent party support spell). There's lots more, but those are some decent basic options. My advise is to try and think outside combat. You don't have to fireball your opponent if you can cause the ceiling drop on them. Put up cover, increase your party's ability scores, lockdown your target's movement and options. Take spells with lots of possibilities (Bestow Curse is INCREDIBLY useful, some of the aforementioned things like Fly to give you 3 dimensional movement, Wall of Force to cut off escape, that sort of thing).

Good luck, and enjoy PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER!

[Darkweave31]

One of my favorite builds is Abjurer 3/ Master Specialist 6/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/ Master Specialist 4

It makes for a great defensive caster that has strong flavor as well. You specialize in the magic of magic and have focused your studies on one of the most powerful defenses available to spellcasters. Mechanically, Master Specialist provides 2 of the 3 feats you need for Initiate and has the third (spell focus) as a prerequisite anyway. It really streamlines the qualifications the build needs.

For additional optimization, see if you can replace 3-4 of those master specialist levels with levels in Incantatrix. With extend and persist metamagic it becomes an incredibly powerful combination. And since Incantatrix is basically focused on abjuration (at least in flavor) the entire build seems like a natural progression for a mage that wants to master magic.

[m149307]

Incantrix is banned. Unfortunately.

[JKTrickster]

Trust me - you don't need it.

You have Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. You're pretty much as safe as a casual DnD player can ever get. In terms of optimization you're already in "Only if the DM wants to specifically screw you over" territory.

[chaos_redefined]

I am curious as to which of these builds are stronger. I am not allowed cheese (at all.) I am level 8 playing in the Forgotten Realms setting. I have 30 point buy with 18-20 taking 2 points instead of 1 (so like from 18-19 score would be 2, then 19-20 would be another 2). I get feats at 1st level and every even level after that with full health at each level (d6 min, so wizard instantly get 6 at each level without a Con score). So... anyone wanna help me decide which to run?

"I am not allowed cheese" and "I want to play Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil"
???

[ryu]

"I am not allowed cheese" and "I want to play Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil"
???

His definition of cheese and that of his group is likely significantly different from yours.

[eggynack]

His definition of cheese and that of his group is likely significantly different from yours.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. I mean, there's clearly not a ridiculous amount of optimization in this game, given the title of this thread, and PrC's seem capable of falling within cheese parameters, given the fact that his game has banned incantatrix. I suppose the third possibility is that the OP will use the class improperly, but the class does most of its stuff out of the box. Chaos' claim, that the cheese block is incongruous next to initiate, seems a fair one in this context.

[m149307]

His definition of cheese and that of his group is likely significantly different from yours.
Exactly. IoSV is allowed, but something like Planar Shepard, Incanatrix, Artificer, etc is banned with such a swiftness.

[ryu]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. I mean, there's clearly not a ridiculous amount of optimization in this game, given the title of this thread, and PrC's seem capable of falling within cheese parameters, given the fact that his game has banned incantatrix. I suppose the third possibility is that the OP will use the class improperly, but the class does most of its stuff out of the box. Chaos' claim, that the cheese block is incongruous next to initiate, seems a fair one in this context.

What I mean is that the group is banning things like prestige classes individually over things like individual tactics from what we've seen here. OP? Probably working based on a list of class options that aren't allowed at the table. The other poster? Likely thinking of the tactics those actual PrCs allow for rather than the PrCs themselves. I know it might seem like a quibbling difference, but it tells you a lot about how a group bans things, how likely it is that they've had experience with large chunks of the system, and how wide the power variation is likely to be in any given game.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wear a Monk's Belt, it adds your Wis bonus to your AC. Take the feat Carmendine Monk from Champions of Valor, and it switches that to your Int bonus. There's no need to waste potential caster levels on Monk levels.

[m149307]

Would need to be a member of Zealots of the Written Word monk order for that feat

[Phelix-Mu]

Tier 1 and full caster stuff is stronger for almost every definition of stronger that comes to mind.

I would, however, suggest that the OP play a monk/wizard. Why? Because you will pretty much be able to pull off a good deal more optimization before getting cheesy. Tier 1s, especially with solid-gold backup like IotSV, really will start pinging on your DM's radar pretty fast. Certainly faster than anything that rhymes with monk.

And monk/wizard can be all kinds of fun. My basic setup would be some int-based monk/conjurer, go for Abrupt Jaunt ACF, Sun School, and Obtain Familiar, aim to eventually pick up Abjurant Champion. If good-aligned is in, go for the luminous armour from BoED, have an AC of "no." Greater/mighty wallop (Races of the Dragon) and wraithstrike (Spell compendiumn) mean that you can be pretty sure to hit and inflict decent damage. Extra points for use of the familiar and benign transposition. Sun School lets you get a free attack whenever you teleport adjacent to a target, IIRC, which is a really fun tactic (especially in conjunction with Abrupt Jaunt...immediate action provokes free attack).

If ToB is in, maybe pick up swordsage levels to get some maneuvers and get Shadow Blade and Assassin's Stance for extra damage. Also be sure to pick up Snap Kick, since it should work off of the free attack granted by Sun School.

Anyway, there are about a half-dozen very excellent threads that explore at some length the optimization limits of monk, and many don't even involve any wizard levels. Suffice it to say that, between the self-nerf/flavor of monk and the toolbox of the wizard, you should be able to come up with something that is both interesting and fun/effective to play.

Sure, a full Tier 1 could nuke it out of the water or render it profoundly obsolete. Good thing that isn't what the game's about, eh?:smallamused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Would need to be a member of Zealots of the Written Word monk order for that feat

There's no entry requirements for that order, what would prevent you from joining?

[Aquillion]

"I am not allowed cheese" and "I want to play Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil"
???IotSV is slightly overrated. Don't get me wrong, it's a hugely powerful class in that it gives you powerful abilities on top of wizard abilities; but its main powers don't directly enhance your wizard powers the way an Incantrix's do, so it isn't going to break your game -- the veils are like gluing a few extra per-day SLAs onto a wizard, basically, even if they're really good SLAs. And that's just an incremental improvement over what they already have, whereas metamagic cheese straight-up breaks everything.

[Phelix-Mu]

The xp/component-free nature of SLAs is actually pretty darn useful. But I do agree that Incantatrix is pretty much the textbook case of way, way too many goodies in one bag.

[m149307]

So I can just join the order by putting it in my background? And I would do the incantrix if I could cuz of brokenness with thesis and the class ability.

[aleucard]

Since anyone paying attention can immediately answer the above question in a normal campaign, I propose a modification to make it more interesting.

Which is better (in a 1x1 against each other, in general play, against something World's Biggest Dungeon-wards, whichever metric you wish to look at), a Monk//Wizard Gestalt or a Wizard/IotSV build (non-Gestalt)? Would the various buffs that Monk brings to the table (especially in melee, which is an area that basically everyone admits that Wizards have hard times with) be better than a standard Sevenfold build? Assume equal optimization.

[ryu]

Since anyone paying attention can immediately answer the above question in a normal campaign, I propose a modification to make it more interesting.

Which is better (in a 1x1 against each other, in general play, against something World's Biggest Dungeon-wards, whichever metric you wish to look at), a Monk//Wizard Gestalt or a Wizard/IotSV build (non-Gestalt)? Would the various buffs that Monk brings to the table (especially in melee, which is an area that basically everyone admits that Wizards have hard times with) be better than a standard Sevenfold build? Assume equal optimization.

All monk questions are countered by one simple retort. Defensive veils of timestop. Initiate of the veils wins.

[m149307]

Veil of timestop? How?

[eggynack]

Since anyone paying attention can immediately answer the above question in a normal campaign, I propose a modification to make it more interesting.

Which is better (in a 1x1 against each other, in general play, against something World's Biggest Dungeon-wards, whichever metric you wish to look at), a Monk//Wizard Gestalt or a Wizard/IotSV build (non-Gestalt)? Would the various buffs that Monk brings to the table (especially in melee, which is an area that basically everyone admits that Wizards have hard times with) be better than a standard Sevenfold build? Assume equal optimization.
I'd probably go with the initiate. I just don't think monk and wizard have all that much synergy. Intelligence is pretty low on a monk's list, and wisdom is pretty low on a wizard's, which is somewhat problematic, and monk fighting abilities aren't all that great. It's a class that has its moments, but those moments largely involve spending large quantities of cash on stuff that's totally irrelevant to wizardry. Initiate just fits better with a wizard's general inclination.

[ryu]

Veil of timestop? How?

Contingent timestop triggered by activation of reactive warding. This is especially brutal when you consider that you have plenty of time to put up multiple wards of pain at very little cost, position as you choose, and buff yourself against the danger.

[aleucard]

I'd probably go with the initiate. I just don't think monk and wizard have all that much synergy. Intelligence is pretty low on a monk's list, and wisdom is pretty low on a wizard's, which is somewhat problematic, and monk fighting abilities aren't all that great. It's a class that has its moments, but those moments largely involve spending large quantities of cash on stuff that's totally irrelevant to wizardry. Initiate just fits better with a wizard's general inclination.

Well, if you want to do the Gish thing, this is a decent enough way to do so out of the box. You're not going to be much sturdier than the nearest Rogue, but still. You're also more equipped than anyone save the Cleric (DMM Persist especially) to do buffs, and it's only better since you can take meaningful use from your own as well as your min-*cough* er, party.

Yeah, the Wizard doesn't have much use for a lot of the things that a Monk does, but he has more than one attribute, and unless if he's using point buy that only lets him get 18 Int and 10 Dex/Con, they are not going to be non-existent. Wizards are notorious for needing the least WBL to stay active, so some of that excess can be used for other things that wouldn't be viable without the Monk Gestalt.

To be honest, yeah the Initiate's probably going to rock the Gestalt's world (quite literally, in some cases), but I was thinking that at least the Gestalt would have a chance of victory above 5%. Exploring what can be done with them would be an interesting way to burn an afternoon, at least.

[Vaz]

Contingent timestop triggered by activation of reactive warding. This is especially brutal when you consider that you have plenty of time to put up multiple wards of pain at very little cost, position as you choose, and buff yourself against the danger.

That is adding even more cheese to a build. Short of Craft contingent spell, a broken feat in its own right, you can't get higher than 6th (or 7th woth Sanctum Spell) level spells.with Contingent spell.

[Aquillion]

Since anyone paying attention can immediately answer the above question in a normal campaign, I propose a modification to make it more interesting.

Which is better (in a 1x1 against each other, in general play, against something World's Biggest Dungeon-wards, whichever metric you wish to look at), a Monk//Wizard Gestalt or a Wizard/IotSV build (non-Gestalt)? Would the various buffs that Monk brings to the table (especially in melee, which is an area that basically everyone admits that Wizards have hard times with) be better than a standard Sevenfold build? Assume equal optimization.I think I'd probably go with Monk//Wizard gestalt at that point, but it's hard to say.

There's not a huge amount of synergy from Monk//Wizard, but wizards do gain something simply from the permanent movement bonuses, the rise to 3/4 BAB (which helps with targeting spells), the higher HD, and the various other Monk defensive buffs -- these are all things a wizard could use spells or magic items to cover, sure, but not having to worry quite as much about them is nice. Usually the Monk's defensive buffs aren't so good because the party is only as tough as its weakest member, but the Wizard is usually that weakest member defensively (until they start expending spells for defense, which, as mentioned, comes at the cost of spells they could have applied elsewhere), so stacking them on a Wizard is worth something.

Additionally, ItoSV is not entirely free to enter -- there are other things you could spend those feats on, which make me inclined to just take the "free" monk Gestalt instead.

However, the melee benefits aren't worth much. Meleeing means not casting spells, which is generally a waste. Even if you use buffs or Polymorph (which do synergize well with monk abilities in theory), you'd be better off casting those on someone else in your party, so they can stomp face while you keep casting; I mean, you could cast one of the self-only Wizard spells that weakens or turns off your spellcasting and stack it with Monk powers, but come on, that's never going to be an optimal strategy (even if it might be fun.)

[Zirconia]

If you are considering the Wizard/Monk, which as mentioned could still be a lot of fun to play and depending on other party members may be good for not overshadowing them as much, definitely consider either Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius (Dragon Magazine 319) to replace Wis with Int for the Monk powers. I've got a friend running that in an all gestalt X/Wizard campaign, and it works quite well, even more versatility than a straight Wizard. Use a couple of battlefield control spells, then hit things alongside your buddies when the fight is under control.

[Phelix-Mu]

Ditto on Int-based monk. It's not optimal in the same sense that high tiers can be optimal, but I really like that concept, more skill points, and better synergy for any kind of build involving dipping Int-focused classes. I'm a pushover for a skill monkey, and the idea of a savant-type who grew up in the library of the monastery, or the product of some kind of wizard-devised, synaptic-learning, super-soldier project, or the person who is so smart that they can learn to fight simply by highly accurate analysis of watching others (Downy Jr's Sherlock Holmes, for instance)....

All of those ideas just seem awesome to me.

[Zombulian]

Unless I'm missing something, this wiz/IotSV is better.

eggynack said as much. :smallredface:

Although, there was a thread recently where a monk build was submitted to fight elder evils. Rubik submitted the build IIRC, although I don't remember much else about the thread.

That was Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial. Every build was a monk build.


To the OP... Sevenfold is significantly "stronger." But I mean, maybe you're not going for that.

[m149307]

Well, which can be better sooner? I mean, I am level 8 right now and I want to be of use in fights and also out of combat.

[ryu]

Well, which can be better sooner? I mean, I am level 8 right now and I want to be of use in fights and also out of combat.

Sevenfold veils. Mainly because access to the warding veil mechanic is hilarious very early on and is in addition to more caster levels. More spells and access to better spells trumps pretty much everything that doesn't include that.

[Rubik]

Since anyone paying attention can immediately answer the above question in a normal campaign, I propose a modification to make it more interesting.

Which is better (in a 1x1 against each other, in general play, against something World's Biggest Dungeon-wards, whichever metric you wish to look at), a Monk//Wizard Gestalt or a Wizard/IotSV build (non-Gestalt)? Would the various buffs that Monk brings to the table (especially in melee, which is an area that basically everyone admits that Wizards have hard times with) be better than a standard Sevenfold build? Assume equal optimization.Other than saving throws, a wizard with a monk's belt is pretty much on par with a wizard//monk.

[m149307]

Ok, a question for the double warding ability: what are some good combos?

[ryu]

Ok, a question for the double warding ability: what are some good combos?

Non-magical projectile deflection, and magical projectile deflection are pretty nice if threatened from range. Fort save or die and forced plane shift are nice in some melee situations. Either that or you could try doubling up on whatever elemental damage you think will work if the attacker is suspected to just die to that much punishment.