Charm Person/monster help

[tim01300]

So my group and I had some issues on the charm person spell and what is allowed with it. Namely the bold section below.



This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly; see Influencing NPC Attitudes, page 72). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.

The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn't ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed). An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but a charmed fighter, for example, might believe you if you assured him that the only chance to save your life is for him to hold back an onrushing red dragon for "just a few seconds". Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

As I read this the caster can ask the subject to do dangerous tasks, holding off a onrushing red dragon is not safe. My players argue that it doesn't necessarily mean harm... The situation was the parties charmed barbarian was told that there was a threat to the party in a tree below the cliff he was on and that he needed to attack it. This lead to two different arguments, the first that a charmed person can't be asked to fight because it would fall under the obviously harmful order. As far as I've always known this has been what people use the spell for the most, charm a monster or person and get them to fight for you for a bit.
The second that he wouldn't try to jump into the tree because it would be suicidal (only a 40ft fall for a level 10 barbarian at full health). He did fail the charisma check. This lead to the question of how much would be okay to ask the character to jump? 10 feet, 20 feet, 30? Should his jump skill matter on how high is ok? The player said 30 feet was ok but anything more wasn't. Then when I asked if would scale the cliff down to the tree instead of jumping he said it depended on how dangerous the cliff was. I guess I feel that if he fails his charisma check the player should be able to be put into danger like in the books example. Aside from that options are walk away, or stand still.

Can anyone help me out with some examples or what is allowed more specifically?

[Segev]

Your players are flat wrong, honestly. It wasn't suicidal, and if your best friend in the world told you he knew of a danger to the party, you probably will at least consider his words. You might not leap into a tree waaay down there just on his say-so, though, particularly if you don't have reason to think it's nearly so urgent as he's suggesting. (Whether you justify it as "he's such a joker" or "he exaggerates" or whatnot is up to you.)

It is worth noting that charm is not suggestion. If it is something he has reason to actually disbelieve (which is QUITE possible, since the idea that there's a threat in the tree that only he knows about is a bit sketchy), he might not leap straight into the fray. However, the opposed Charisma check should still get him acting directly on it. If only in the "Okay, son, I'll do the 'make the monsters leave the closet' dance. Again. For the third time tonight" sort of sense. That IS what the Cha check is for: to see if your charm-inducing "friend" is able to persuade you based on your friendship to do something for him.

So, if the Barbarian had good reason to doubt the legitimacy of the threat, he still should go investigate. Just maybe not in the high-risk way his "friend" suggested. If it was the ONLY way (or even the hands-down best way, assuming that his "friend" is not going to back-stab him...which, of course, the charmed person would believe since friends don't backstab friends), the Barbarian should take it. Possibly with a slight bit of reluctance, but he should do it upon losing the Cha contest. He was talked into it.

If it's not the only/best way, however, he's easily able to take his own better way to check it out.


The reason the "onrushing dragon" is an example is because it's very immediate and very obvious. It's also quite believable that the Fighter is the guy who can hold it off "for a few rounds." If the charmed character was the mousy wizard who was out of spells, he would turn down the obviously suicidal order even if he lost the Cha check. His sacrifice would be meaningless as the Standard action it would take the dragon to eat him alive wouldn't be enough to help the charming individual get away. Meanwhile, the charmed Fighter has reason to believe that not only could he slow it down, but that he might be able to get away after a round or two if he plays his cards right. He's a fighter; this kind of thing is what he does.


In all, your Barbarian absolutely should have investigated the tree. If he's the sort to take long leaps to the ground when he wants to do something fast, he should have. Otherwise, a more measured approach to getting down there would be reasonable. But he should act on his "friend's" concerns, since the Cha check came up "charmer persuades barbarian."

[tim01300]

Part of the issues is my players reading the An affected creature never obeys obviously harmful orders. Where is the line for this, because clearly holding off a dragon for even a few rounds is harmful. But they argue it doesn't have to be that's why its the example (which is just bullpoop imo).

Then the charisma check vs anything the character wouldn't normally do. My players argue a check for just about anything, even if the player is just ordered to stand still, because that isn't what he would normally do in a fight, same as run away etc etc. My understand of the charisma check would be more for dangerous instructions or asking a good character to kill a puppy, that sorta thing.

If a PC fails the charisma check is it viable to have him attack a party member? If say the caster of charm person told the PC that the party member was a spy or under control of a another wizard?

Basically I feel my players are trying to neuter one of the oldest and best spells in the game because a few of them made characters with horrible will saves and didn't buy any items to help themselves.