The ultimate True Creation shenanigans?

[AnonymousPepper]

Step one. Be a human LN Cleric into Hathran.

Step two. Dip wizard.

Step three. Have Alternate Source Spell to turn True Creation into an Arcane spell.

Step four. Have Alacritous Cogitation to turn True Creation into a full-round action.

Step five. Dip into Dweomerkeeper 4.

Step six. Buy a shield with the Time Buttress ASA. And an Ioun stone.

Step seven. Circle magic.

Step eight. Persisted Greater Consumptive Field. Lots of them.

Step nine. Activate Time Buttress shield.

Step ten. Kill your commoner followers that you have because you're a Hathran. Caster level 80 True Creation (40 with Circle Magic, then to 79 with Greater Consumptive Field, then 80 with an Ioun Stone). Create 80 cubic feet of degenerate antiproton matter. Supernatural Spell Alacrituous True Creation, quickened with a metamagic rod or turned into a standard via Arcane Spellsurge.

Step eleven. Could not find density of degenerate antiproton matter, so used the figure for the minimum density of neutron stars sourced from wiki (degenerate neutron matter); release 6358286808000000 tons of TNT worth of energy, also known as a large fraction (~1/4) of the energy released from the Sun in one year.

Step twelve. Lose your Hathran powers because you just committed a monstrously evil action, but on the plus side, you can laugh at the puny Vogon constructor fleet that wishes that they had that much explosive force on hand.

Alternatively, Contingent Plane Shift instead of time buttress.

MegaDwarf Bonus: use antiquarks or even (theoretical) antipreons, which have even higher densities.

[cosmonuts]

By RAW, alacritous cogitation and uncanny forethought do not work together with supernatural spell without permissive readings. I've been thinking about this a long time, since I've been optimizing a cheesy epic dweomerkeeper of my own. The RAW does not support it.

Alacritous cogitation and uncanny forethought allows us to reserve an open slot to cast a spell we know. But what about supernatural spell?


The spell chosen must be one that is currently available to the dweomerkeeper (that is, one that she has prepared or that she knows and has a spell slot of the appropriate level available to cast), but she can decide at the moment of casting to use this ability.

In this case, the spell that was cast through alacritous cogitation or uncanny forethought is not a prepared spell! That slot was reserved for uncanny forethought, which is not necessarily the same state as "prepared spell". What about the next clause, "that she knows and has a spell slot of the appropriate level"? Well, it's clear that in this case the reference of "[spells] she knows" is about the "spells known" mechanic of spontaneous casters like sorcerers, that is, a wizard doesn't "know" the spell by the spells known mechanic.

[Phelix-Mu]

As much as I like interpolating magic and real-world advanced physics, there is definitely a basis for the claim that the game doesn't support quantum physics, even as it doesn't much support Newtonian physics. While anything not covered by the rules follows real-world physics, the whole ability to create and remove both energy and matter from the game wholesale throws up a whole bunch of red flags to my admittedly rather distant recollection of physics.

A more interesting topic may be for the forum to consider whether there is actually a bit of rules that contradicts the idea of particle physics. I imagine that there is, since magic generally tells most of physics to get bent.

[cosmonuts]

Here's a quick intuitive math reason why D&D wouldn't support physics.

Our current models of relativistic quantum field theory and standard model string theory (?) can both produce Noetherian symmetry laws. The D&D world does not obey Noetherian symmetry.

Therefore in the D&D world we should not expect to see particle physics or quantum mechanics.

[Graypairofsocks]

Here is part of the text of True Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/trueCreation.htm) quoted as for why it wouldn't work:


Effect: Unattended, nonmagical object of nonliving matter, up to 1 cu. ft./level

Bolded part added by me for emphasis.

[cosmonuts]

A lot of advanced physics are models which predict physical phenomenon, but whose components and mechanisms have questionable ontological status.

It's not like what we're used to, trebuchets, catapults, electricity, things which are modeled whose components we can directly determine as being real, so they are ported over to the D&D rules to give the world some verisimilitude. I don't think there is a sharp demarcation where we can say "this is definitely real, ontologically, but this might not be", but it's fair to say that at some level we don't understand the physical components of our models.

But they certainly don't add verisimilitude to D&D, and the models often are inconsistent in the presence of D&D rules, so it would be a stretch to add such notions to the game as antimatter.

[deuxhero]

True Creation is broken as soon as you make it a SLA. Infinite wealth!

[Kazyan]

It's more fun to create an incredibly destructive material that D&D supports explicitly. Like...voidstones (Manual of the Planes).

[AnonymousPepper]

True Creation is broken as soon as you make it a SLA. Infinite wealth!

Heir of Siberys with the Mark of Making was what provoked this, actually, when talking with a friend of mine.

Can create 15ft^3 of platinum, worth something like 10 million gold.

[Khedrac]

At this point the DM needs to find a read an old copy of "Instant Gold" by Frank O'Rouke.

Instant any substance does not equal instant wealth, instead it equals a broken economy and a financial collapse.

[gomipile]

Here is part of the text of True Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/trueCreation.htm) quoted as for why it wouldn't work:



Bolded part added by me for emphasis.

In physics, antimatter is a type of matter. Generally, matter is defined as that which possesses rest mass, which antiprotons do.

[Gemini476]

I'm somewhat sure that atoms aren't something that exist in standard D&D. Everything on the material plane is made out of elemental Fire, Air, Water, Earth, and Positive and Negative Energy. In the Inner Planes they only have some of those, and on the Outer Planes everything is made out of Good/Evil/Law/Chaos. I guess there's also Shadow and whatever kinds of unmatter the Far Realm may be made of, but yeah.

Is there any kind of indication that antimatter is a thing that exists beyond the "as reality unless told otherwise" rule? Because everything being running on platonic elements seems to rule out quantum physics.

[gomipile]

I'm somewhat sure that atoms aren't something that exist in standard D&D. Everything on the material plane is made out of elemental Fire, Air, Water, Earth, and Positive and Negative Energy. In the Inner Planes they only have some of those, and on the Outer Planes everything is made out of Good/Evil/Law/Chaos. I guess there's also Shadow and whatever kinds of unmatter the Far Realm may be made of, but yeah.

Is there any kind of indication that antimatter is a thing that exists beyond the "as reality unless told otherwise" rule? Because everything being running on platonic elements seems to rule out quantum physics.

I don't see why it would rule out quantum physics. Quantization works for quite a few simplified "thought experiment" formulations of physics, and many phenomena dependent on quantum physics exist in D&D anyway.

Also, the existence of elemental magic doesn't rule out the existence of a realistic physics substrate. There are at least a few fantasy universes which have both.

[cosmonuts]

I don't see why it would rule out quantum physics. Quantization works for quite a few simplified "thought experiment" formulations of physics, and many phenomena dependent on quantum physics exist in D&D anyway.

Also, the existence of elemental magic doesn't rule out the existence of a realistic physics substrate. There are at least a few fantasy universes which have both.

The issue is as I've stated above in the thread.

Very few physical models like QFT or SUSY work in D&D because D&D cannot even get a simple thing right. The differential symmetry of action (probably done in L_1 space as opposed to Euclidean) in D&D does not have a corresponding conservation law, and this is a notion that is certainly built into QFT and SUSY (but excuse me if it isn't, I'm not as familiar with math physics as I'd like to be).

Well, okay, so what. Classical field theory and thermodynamics in D&D have trouble being consistent, since they too are reliant on Noetherian symmetry. But we still have things like catapults, electricity, gravity, etc in D&D.

Note, however, these effects are modeled vaguely after real life (rather poorly) and not meant to be accurate, merely adding realism to the game. Right, so we can add elements of QFT and SUSY to D&D selectively and call it "realism", right?

You could, but they don't add verisimilitude. Indeed, the only reason why I can see to add them is science fetishization. And I don't think that's a good reason to add things, but groups differ. Using scientific notions in Star Wars d20 that refer to real things makes some people happy.

[Kazudo]

There really should be a "Catgirls Killed" count going on in threads like these.

Honestly, were most of this beyond my level of expertise, I'd likely have more to offer than just that.

A bigger question is that if you can make all of that matter instantaneously, why not use it to generate far too much helium in one place far too many times? You'd eventually shift the chemistry of the very atmosphere which COULD have a lot of negative effects on things.

[deuxhero]

At this point the DM needs to find a read an old copy of "Instant Gold" by Frank O'Rouke.

Instant any substance does not equal instant wealth, instead it equals a broken economy and a financial collapse.

This would be true if... 1: D&D world has functional economics, and the fact that you little literal wheelbarels of gold to make purchases at high levels, ancient tombs are full of junk worth more than the average guy will see in their life and spells components somehow enforce value says otherwise 2:You were limited to making only one thing 3: With teleport, you're can easily follow demand (even mundane travel can work when you aren't carrying your [level] cubic feet a day), undercut the competition, and then trade your something for nothing goods for stuff you can't create like land 4: various monopolys (some of which are even in place today) show that if you control access, it doesn't matter if the actual resource is infinite.

[Anlashok]

Alacritous cogitation and uncanny forethought allows us to reserve an open slot to cast a spell we know. But what about supernatural spell?
Dude. The part right after the section you bolded...

[cosmonuts]

Dude. The part right after the section you bolded...

I addressed it already, but I found another nail in the coffin.


a spell slot of the appropriate level available to cast

Reserving a spell for alacritous cogitation and uncanny forethought is not a slot available to cast. That notion is something only a spontaneous caster has. For prepared casters, a slot is either prepared or not, and in this case, the slot is reserved, which is not necessarily the same thing as "available to cast".

It still could be the same thing, but strong arguments need to show that something is. Could be is not a strong enough of a qualifier.

[gomipile]

The issue is as I've stated above in the thread.

Very few physical models like QFT or SUSY work in D&D because D&D cannot even get a simple thing right. The differential symmetry of action (probably done in L_1 space as opposed to Euclidean) in D&D does not have a corresponding conservation law, and this is a notion that is certainly built into QFT and SUSY (but excuse me if it isn't, I'm not as familiar with math physics as I'd like to be).

Well, okay, so what. Classical field theory and thermodynamics in D&D have trouble being consistent, since they too are reliant on Noetherian symmetry. But we still have things like catapults, electricity, gravity, etc in D&D.

Note, however, these effects are modeled vaguely after real life (rather poorly) and not meant to be accurate, merely adding realism to the game. Right, so we can add elements of QFT and SUSY to D&D selectively and call it "realism", right?

You could, but they don't add verisimilitude. Indeed, the only reason why I can see to add them is science fetishization. And I don't think that's a good reason to add things, but groups differ. Using scientific notions in Star Wars d20 that refer to real things makes some people happy.

Assuming that d&d doesn't have the right Noether symmetries to build gravity and chemistry based on the rules text is as silly as using the rigid 5 foot cubical grid of possible positions in combat as the only possible group of rigid body translations in d&d physics.

If chemistry doesn't work(because QED, etc doesn't work,) then there would be no humans. The designers' choice to put real world animals in d&d implicitly includes all the physics that makes those animals function. In that light, any rules text that contradicts real world physics must be seen as an approximation to keep the game flowing easily, or part of a "magic layer" that temporarily and or locally suspends some physics to make aspects the game work.

[Phelix-Mu]

Assuming that d&d doesn't have the right Noether symmetries to build gravity and chemistry based on the rules text is as silly as using the rigid 5 foot cubical grid of possible positions in combat as the only possible group of rigid body translations in d&d physics.

If chemistry doesn't work(because QED, etc doesn't work,) then there would be no humans. The designers' choice to put real world animals in d&d implicitly includes all the physics that makes those animals function. In that light, any rules text that contradicts real world physics must be seen as an approximation to keep the game flowing easily, or part of a "magic layer" that temporarily and or locally suspends some physics to make aspects the game work.

Eh, no. Things in the game can exist because, once upon a time, long ago, some god wished living beings into existence. Now those beings continue to live. We can't assume that, just because they are called humans and look like humans, that they are just like irl humans. In fact, some of the rules run directly counter to how irl humans work. Real-life respiration isn't really a thing in core, AFAIK, since air is treated like air, and although oxygen may exist, it is apparently not consumed by fire or by living beings. This suggests that in-game humans work according to some kind of faux-science that is only coherent insofar as is quantified by the extremely selective and non-exhaustive ruleset (and even then, is only marginally coherent). For all mechanical purposes, living beings are Platonically conceived. They don't need telomeres, they degrade at fixed intervals, and can only reproduce by fluff (due to lack of an ability in the game that results in the creation of offspring).

The problem is that the system leaves a lot up to inference, but then says that inferences should be drawn parallel to the real world, while all the stuff they didn't leave up to inference largely contradicts real-world inferences.

EDIT: To clarify, while I am against extreme RAW like drown-healing, I do think they underestimated just how much the RAW really does explicitly imply.

[cosmonuts]

1) You can still have Noetherian symmetries in L_1 spaces, which includes D&D.

2) Chemistry doesn't work in D&D, but many human-level interactions (dissolving, electricity, heat, gravity) present in D&D can be said with some robustness to exist ontologically in real life, no less in a manner that we closely relate to. So for verisimilitude they are ported over to D&D.

3) The existence of animals in D&D only assumes the presence of phenomenon that are close to us for the purposes of modeling human-level interactions, like the animal is made of meat, which is what is relevant for us in the context of meeting animals in D&D, but not that the animal's tissues are being driven by motor proteins. The latter assumption only holds if the D&D world attempts to make the notion of motor proteins important.

4) You can put particles, gravitons, antiprotons, and the like in D&D, and give them whatever properties you want, but in a hypothetical world that behaves according to D&D RAW, we should not expect that they exist just because the rest of the world does.

5) Thus these particle and quantum physics things wind up being practically homebrew. Taking them as default in D&D is assuming too much, because we should not expect that they are implied by D&D's mechanics.

EDIT

Also, about the Noetherian symmetry in L_1 spaces, this surprised me when I found it as well. I thought Noetherian symmetries only worked in Euclidean-like spaces, but Markov chains are a thing in statistical mechanics, should behave by Noetherian symmetry, and are on L_1 spaces. So it follows that there can be Noetherian symmetries in L_1 spaces.

TOO LONG, DIDN'T READ

Essentially, it doesn't really matter if you use advanced physics in D&D, but doing so is homebrew, because you cannot expect that they exist in D&D. You can ignore the physics above, it's just red herring to justify that the D&D physics is so out of whack with any model that can hold particles or quantum effects. None of these matter if you still choose to use advanced physics, but as I said above, doing so is purely homebrew because you can't expect them to work by default in D&D.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think it might be okay to think that there is some kind of particles or chemistry at work in D&D, but it really can't work the way it does in real life, not without substantial alteration to some of the RAW stuff that definitely doesn't jive, or alteration to what "particle" and "chemistry" mean and what laws are at work, which is also fine, but, as noted, is essentially homebrew.