Player Help Need help on second part of a gestalt build [Archive]

Agamemmnoth

2014-05-29, 03:24 AM

This sounds super high OP, yes? Otherwise, I advise against planar sheppard. It is all upside without giving up a darn thing, and can get stupid amazing silly very easily.

But other than that, what exactly do you want to do with the character?

Yes this campaign will be super high opness. I need tons of cheese. So much it's coming out of every hole I have.

I'm dead set on planar shepherd and Dal Quor. Eggynack suggested factotum up to shadowseve in another post since it makes sense to have a more passive class on the opposite side. So i thought it would work for me as well. I seem to agree pretty much with what Eggy says on druids. He also suggested the dip in sword sage. Though he humbly recommended me to come here for the other side of the gestalt.

I'm curious if I should ditch the cleric part or not and if I did what to take in it's place. The druid side is set in stone. It'll be hard to really gimp the character since I'm going planar shepherd. But I'm all about Cheese>than concept. Just my nature I suppose. :smallbiggrin:

shadowseve

2014-05-29, 05:02 AM

I think part of the problem is when you'll be getting the cleric levels.

TO me if you're going cleric the I would put those levels first.

for example druid 5/planar 10/ druid 5//cleric11/sword sage 1/factotum 8 would seem the best if you're wanting cleric buffs and spells plus a few maneuvers and the benefit of factotum.

Druids seem to be hard to build a proper gestalt class on the other end. Factotum works well but the others..... Factotum 20 could work unless your dead set on DMM persist.

Baroknik

2014-05-29, 05:09 AM

shadowseve

2014-05-29, 05:27 AM

Pick up Factotum 20 on the other side. Cast Gate every minute you experience in your bubble and then go back to Druid brokenness...

Or if you really want to go Factotum, Chameleon always seems sexy with it to me.

I agree with factotum 20.

It's the way I'm going.

druid 5/ Planar shepherd 10/ druid /5//factotum 20

Though I'm going the holy angelic route. If Dal Qour didn't have the evil Qouri as the native outsiders I would consider it. However, as you're cheese>than concept, I'm concept > cheese. though the 10:1 ratio is insane.

Agamemmnoth

2014-05-29, 05:36 AM

Pick up Factotum 20 on the other side. Cast Gate every minute you experience in your bubble and then go back to Druid brokenness...

Or if you really want to go Factotum, Chameleon always seems sexy with it to me.

I thought as the druid casting the bubble you couldn't do anything since you're concentrating on maintaining the "bubble"

shadowseve

2014-05-29, 05:57 AM

Pick up Factotum 20 on the other side. Cast Gate every minute you experience in your bubble and then go back to Druid brokenness...

Or if you really want to go Factotum, Chameleon always seems sexy with it to me.

gate is a lv 9 spell. Factotum gives you up to 7th level spells, not bad though but you won't be casting gate with that class. Besides maintaining the bubble requires "concentration". Still factotum is nice and you won't go wrong hanging in there. One good thing I like is it really helps our reflex saves.

John Longarrow

2014-05-29, 07:07 AM

Agamemmnoth
Features Sword Sage gives you that help in wild shape are
2nd level - Wisdom to AC (Includes Touch)
4th level - Widsom to Damage (if DM considers your natural attacks as meeting discipline focus)
Versatility in battle with select maneuvers

Talk to your DM first if you want to go this way. In a high OP game this could be +10 to AC and +10 damage for some of the fun stuff you are doing.

shadowseve

2014-05-29, 07:23 AM

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2014-05-29, 08:11 AM

Two levels of (Unarmed) Swordsage will definitely give you your Wis bonus to AC, even when Wild Shaped. Also note that a Swordsage gets x6 skill points at 1st level, instead of the normal x4, while most consider this a typo the official errata got past that point without changing it before it fell flat, so RAW it still stands. You can also pick up one or more Shadow Hand teleport maneuvers, Sudden Leap, Hunter's Sense, etc. I'd say it's definitely worth considering.

Take a single level of Cloistered Cleric, trade your free knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion, and get the Undeath and Planning domains for Extra Turning and Extend Spell. With a single Cleric level the Undeath domain gives you Extra Turning and Detect Undead, benefits that an enemy of the undead would want in their arsenal. Alternatively, get three, five, or seven levels of Cleric spellcasting with different domains. Take the Initiate of Mystra feat and the Spell domain, use Anyspell for (DMM: Persistent) buffs like Shield and Wraithstrike, you can use 3rd level Pearls of Power to use Anyspell more than once, and if you get seven levels of Cleric casting you'll get Divine Power.

I'd include Warshaper 4 or 5 in those last five levels after you've finished Planar Shepherd. By that point you should be spending all your time in Wild Shape, and the benefits it gives are just too good to pass up. The only reason not to take five levels of that would be to squeeze in a level of Master of Many Forms, which allows you to speak when wild shaped. Also note that any form you take that has limbs can perform somatic components of spells, so if you dip MoMF early (going Druid 6/ PS 10/ Druid 4) you won't even need to spend a feat on Natural Spell.

If not using fractional BAB, i.e. if a Fighter 1/ Wizard 19// Sorcerer 20 would get a +20 BAB because one of his classes grants +1 BAB at every level, then it would be worthwhile to dip Fast Movement Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) at 1st level. Keep in mind that you would keep that fast movement when Wild Shaped, and it stacks with the bonus from Longstrider.

For extreme cheese, dip Shiba Protector from OA to add your Wis bonus to all of your attack rolls and damage rolls, and that's not limited to weapon attacks so it includes spell damage rolls as well.

Agamemmnoth
Features Sword Sage gives you that help in wild shape are
2nd level - Wisdom to AC (Includes Touch)
4th level - Widsom to Damage (if DM considers your natural attacks as meeting discipline focus)
Versatility in battle with select maneuvers

Talk to your DM first if you want to go this way. In a high OP game this could be +10 to AC and +10 damage for some of the fun stuff you are doing.

Discipline Focus only adds your Wis bonus to damage when executing a strike-type maneuver of your chosen discipline, it doesn't work on just any attack. You could pick Tiger Claw and use Wolf Fang Strike to make two attacks, adding your Wis bonus to damage on each, it wouldn't matter what types of weapons you're making those attacks with because all that matters is that you're executing a martial strike maneuver from your chosen discipline.

Doc_Maynot

2014-05-29, 08:22 AM

shadowseve

2014-05-29, 08:39 AM

You do know Factotum can fuel DMM, right?
Their Opportunistic Piety feature lets them turn undead 6+ Wis Modifier/day at Level 20, 3+Wis Modifier by default.
However in an Int/Wis Build, Chameleon is something to consider.

I agree with the the factotum. I've heard that strait factotum>chameleon but I could be wrong.

shadowseve

2014-05-29, 08:44 AM

Two levels of (Unarmed) Swordsage will definitely give you your Wis bonus to AC, even when Wild Shaped. Also note that a Swordsage gets x6 skill points at 1st level, instead of the normal x4, while most consider this a typo the official errata got past that point without changing it before it fell flat, so RAW it still stands. You can also pick up one or more Shadow Hand teleport maneuvers, Sudden Leap, Hunter's Sense, etc. I'd say it's definitely worth considering.

Take a single level of Cloistered Cleric, trade your free knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion, and get the Undeath and Planning domains for Extra Turning and Extend Spell. With a single Cleric level the Undeath domain gives you Extra Turning and Detect Undead, benefits that an enemy of the undead would want in their arsenal. Alternatively, get three, five, or seven levels of Cleric spellcasting with different domains. Take the Initiate of Mystra feat and the Spell domain, use Anyspell for (DMM: Persistent) buffs like Shield and Wraithstrike, you can use 3rd level Pearls of Power to use Anyspell more than once, and if you get seven levels of Cleric casting you'll get Divine Power.

I'd include Warshaper 4 or 5 in those last five levels after you've finished Planar Shepherd. By that point you should be spending all your time in Wild Shape, and the benefits it gives are just too good to pass up. The only reason not to take five levels of that would be to squeeze in a level of Master of Many Forms, which allows you to speak when wild shaped. Also note that any form you take that has limbs can perform somatic components of spells, so if you dip MoMF early (going Druid 6/ PS 10/ Druid 4) you won't even need to spend a feat on Natural Spell.

If not using fractional BAB, i.e. if a Fighter 1/ Wizard 19// Sorcerer 20 would get a +20 BAB because one of his classes grants +1 BAB at every level, then it would be worthwhile to dip Fast Movement Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) at 1st level. Keep in mind that you would keep that fast movement when Wild Shaped, and it stacks with the bonus from Longstrider.

For extreme cheese, dip Shiba Protector from OA to add your Wis bonus to all of your attack rolls and damage rolls, and that's not limited to weapon attacks so it includes spell damage rolls as well.

Discipline Focus only adds your Wis bonus to damage when executing a strike-type maneuver of your chosen discipline, it doesn't work on just any attack. You could pick Tiger Claw and use Wolf Fang Strike to make two attacks, adding your Wis bonus to damage on each, it wouldn't matter what types of weapons you're making those attacks with because all that matters is that you're executing a martial strike maneuver from your chosen discipline.

why would you ever delay planar shepherd? Also why wouldn't it be fractional BAB sense you're still multi-classing?

Edit:

The other caution is warshaper and master of many forms is that you're losing 5 caster levels which hurts. In my opinion, while druids make good face beaters, their real power lies in their caster and summon abilities. This is just my opinion. If anything I would take levels of sword sage on the side of the factotum and change nothing on the druid side.

John Longarrow

2014-05-29, 08:50 AM

Also why wouldn't it be fractional BAB sense you're still multi-classing?

Fractional BAB is optional. Some DMs play with it, some don't.

shadowseve

2014-05-29, 08:52 AM

Fractional BAB is optional. Some DMs play with it, some don't.

I've never heard of that. is there anything written on that by any chance? I've always thought it was fractional.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2014-05-29, 09:10 AM

why would you ever delay planar shepherd? Also why wouldn't it be fractional BAB sense you're still multi-classing?

Edit:

The other caution is warshaper and master of many forms is that you're losing 5 caster levels which hurts. In my opinion, while druids make good face beaters, their real power lies in their caster and summon abilities. This is just my opinion. If anything I would take levels of sword sage on the side of the factotum and change nothing on the druid side.

Delaying it by a single level saves you a feat, since you don't need to get Natural Spell, plus it lets you wild shape into humanoid forms.

Warshaper and MoMF wouldn't lose any caster levels at all, I suggested taking them along side of Druid levels.

I've never heard of that. is there anything written on that by any chance? I've always thought it was fractional.

Unearthed Arcana p73, sidebar titled House Rule: Fractional Base Bonuses.

shadowseve

2014-05-29, 09:14 AM

Delaying it by a single level saves you a feat, since you don't need to get Natural Spell, plus it lets you wild shape into humanoid forms.

Warshaper and MoMF wouldn't lose any caster levels at all, I suggested taking them along side of Druid levels.

Unearthed Arcana p73, sidebar titled House Rule: Fractional Base Bonuses.

yep I read your post wrong.

Just got off of work. Reading comprehension is not the greatest atm.

thanks for the page on fractional bab I've never heard of that until now.

Doc_Maynot

2014-05-29, 09:27 AM

I agree with the the factotum. I've heard that strait factotum>chameleon but I could be wrong.

Depends on the play style, if you want to go Druid 10/ Planar Shepard 10|Factotum 11/Chameleon 9 you got the best of all in my opinion.
That'll give you:
Any arcane up to 6th
Any divine up to 6th
Druid 9ths
+4 to Int or Wis
The hallowed Floating Feat
7 + Wis Mod Turn attempts/Day
The ability to ignore SR or DR
Extra Standard Actions
Factotum SLAs
+Int to AC (Assigned against a foe on your turn)
+Int to Initiative, Str Checks, and Dex Checks
+Int to attacks, damage, or saves (Which can be done while wild shaped)

The only loss will be to skills, a feat at level 1, the ability to ignore damage 1/day, improved cunning dodge, and the Cunning Brilliance ability

But in the end, it not the best route. Just one worth considering.

Agamemmnoth

2014-05-29, 09:28 AM

Two levels of (Unarmed) Swordsage will definitely give you your Wis bonus to AC, even when Wild Shaped. Also note that a Swordsage gets x6 skill points at 1st level, instead of the normal x4, while most consider this a typo the official errata got past that point without changing it before it fell flat, so RAW it still stands. You can also pick up one or more Shadow Hand teleport maneuvers, Sudden Leap, Hunter's Sense, etc. I'd say it's definitely worth considering.

Take a single level of Cloistered Cleric, trade your free knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion, and get the Undeath and Planning domains for Extra Turning and Extend Spell. With a single Cleric level the Undeath domain gives you Extra Turning and Detect Undead, benefits that an enemy of the undead would want in their arsenal. Alternatively, get three, five, or seven levels of Cleric spellcasting with different domains. Take the Initiate of Mystra feat and the Spell domain, use Anyspell for (DMM: Persistent) buffs like Shield and Wraithstrike, you can use 3rd level Pearls of Power to use Anyspell more than once, and if you get seven levels of Cleric casting you'll get Divine Power.

I'd include Warshaper 4 or 5 in those last five levels after you've finished Planar Shepherd. By that point you should be spending all your time in Wild Shape, and the benefits it gives are just too good to pass up. The only reason not to take five levels of that would be to squeeze in a level of Master of Many Forms, which allows you to speak when wild shaped. Also note that any form you take that has limbs can perform somatic components of spells, so if you dip MoMF early (going Druid 6/ PS 10/ Druid 4) you won't even need to spend a feat on Natural Spell.

If not using fractional BAB, i.e. if a Fighter 1/ Wizard 19// Sorcerer 20 would get a +20 BAB because one of his classes grants +1 BAB at every level, then it would be worthwhile to dip Fast Movement Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) at 1st level. Keep in mind that you would keep that fast movement when Wild Shaped, and it stacks with the bonus from Longstrider.

For extreme cheese, dip Shiba Protector from OA to add your Wis bonus to all of your attack rolls and damage rolls, and that's not limited to weapon attacks so it includes spell damage rolls as well.

Discipline Focus only adds your Wis bonus to damage when executing a strike-type maneuver of your chosen discipline, it doesn't work on just any attack. You could pick Tiger Claw and use Wolf Fang Strike to make two attacks, adding your Wis bonus to damage on each, it wouldn't matter what types of weapons you're making those attacks with because all that matters is that you're executing a martial strike maneuver from your chosen discipline.

SO what would your final build be?

Immabozo

2014-05-29, 10:52 AM

Yes this campaign will be super high opness. I need tons of cheese. So much it's coming out of every hole I have.

I'm dead set on planar shepherd and Dal Quor. Eggynack suggested factotum up to shadowseve in another post since it makes sense to have a more passive class on the opposite side. So i thought it would work for me as well. I seem to agree pretty much with what Eggy says on druids. He also suggested the dip in sword sage. Though he humbly recommended me to come here for the other side of the gestalt.

I'm curious if I should ditch the cleric part or not and if I did what to take in it's place. The druid side is set in stone. It'll be hard to really gimp the character since I'm going planar shepherd. But I'm all about Cheese>than concept. Just my nature I suppose. :smallbiggrin:

I have no problem with cheese, as long as you know what you are getting into. This is the whole dairy farm.

But if you are going to be in melee, Nature's Warrior has a variety of bonuses it can give, improved nat AC, make your natural weapons +3 magical weapons (assuming I am reading it correctly) and quite a few other cool bonuses, War shaper can give you reach, immuneity to crits and sneak attack, +4 str, +4 con, fast healing and a concentration check to heal 10 and a few other bonuses, MoMF gives you more shapes you can assume.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2014-05-29, 02:46 PM

SO what would your final build be?

Since you seem to want to be a non-melee primary spellcaster, I'd go Strongheart Water Halfling, Druid 5/ Planar Shepherd 10/ Druid 5// Unarmed Swordsage 2/ Cloistered Cleric 7/ Factotum 8/ Warshaper 3. That can DMM: Persist Divine Power for when you need it, Anyspell and Pearls of Power for DMM: Persistent Shield, Wraithstrike, etc., Initiate of Mystra so you can still cast and keep your buffs in antimagic and dead magic areas, and you can even do DMM: Persistent Fell Drain Cloud of Knives. Besides Knowledge Devotion and Spell, your last domain must be picked from Good, Illusion, Magic, and Rune, there really isn't a 'best' choice in those so it's up to personal preference. You need to be within one step of either NG or LN, the current Mystra is NG but the old dead Mystra was LN and the current Mystra still recognizes worshipers of the old Mystra. You want to be good aligned for sanctified spells such as (DMM: Persistent) Elation and (Greater) Luminous Armor, and for ultimate cheese get Natural Bond and Exalted Companion for a Warbeast Celestial Dire Eagle at a net total 'level -1' and give it Vow of Poverty.

Agamemmnoth

2014-05-29, 03:45 PM

shadowseve

2014-05-29, 04:27 PM

Anyway to max out MOMF and warshaper on the other side of the build. I know you can't have two PRc's on both sides at the same time But I like the shape at will from warshaper and immunities, and all of the forms from momf.

I'm thinking maybe

druid 5/planar 10/druid 5 // MOMF 1/warshaper 4/ factotum 10/ warshaper 1/momf 4

That gets the turn undead, all the goodies from warshaper and some nice things from momf.

eggynack

2014-05-29, 04:33 PM

I'm thinking maybe

druid 5/planar 10/druid 5 // MOMF 1/warshaper 4/ factotum 10/ warshaper 1/momf 4.
This doesn't really work, cause prerequisites.

Immabozo

2014-05-29, 04:35 PM

I'm thinking maybe

druid 5/planar 10/druid 5 // MOMF 1/warshaper 4/ factotum 10/ warshaper 1/momf 4

That gets the turn undead, all the goodies from warshaper and some nice things from momf.

How exactly are you planning to qualify for MoMF at level 1 and Warshaper at level 2?

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2014-05-29, 04:42 PM

Anyway to max out MOMF and warshaper on the other side of the build. I know you can't have two PRc's on both sides at the same time But I like the shape at will from warshaper and immunities, and all of the forms from momf.

You don't need to max out Master of Many Forms, you can use Enhance Wild Shape to gain the extraordinary special qualities of your assumed form and feats like Frozen Wild Shape, Aberration Wild Shape, and Dragon Wild Shape to gain access to more forms. Take Assume Supernatural Ability: Eye Rays and Aberration Wild Shape into a Beholder, its Eye Rays supernatural ability is a single ability for all of its eyes except the central one, so you'll be able to use all of those at will as a free action every round. Frozen Wild Shape gives you 12-headed Cryohydra form, Enhance Wild Shape gives you its Fast Healing 22, and you can use Robilar's Gambit to make a 12-bite AoO whenever you're attacked, plus with DMM: Persistent Bite of the Werecreature you'll be a destroyer of worlds.

Immabozo

2014-05-29, 04:59 PM

You don't need to max out Master of Many Forms, you can use Enhance Wild Shape to gain the extraordinary special qualities of your assumed form and feats like Frozen Wild Shape, Aberration Wild Shape, and Dragon Wild Shape to gain access to more forms. Take Assume Supernatural Ability: Eye Rays and Aberration Wild Shape into a Beholder, its Eye Rays supernatural ability is a single ability for all of its eyes except the central one, so you'll be able to use all of those at will as a free action every round. Frozen Wild Shape gives you 12-headed Cryohydra form, Enhance Wild Shape gives you its Fast Healing 22, and you can use Robilar's Gambit to make a 12-bite AoO whenever you're attacked, plus with DMM: Persistent Bite of the Werecreature you'll be a destroyer of worlds.

Very true, I love the Bite of the Were x line of spells.

But "Assume Supernatural Ability: Eye Rays" doesn't exist. You dont declare one SU ability to take and can only take that one. You take Assume Supernatural Ability feat and choose anew each time you shift into a form with SU abilities

shadowseve

2014-05-29, 05:02 PM

This doesn't really work, cause prerequisites.

I so need to learn to read the fine print.

Agamemmnoth

2014-05-29, 05:10 PM

what about

what about druid 5/planar 10/druid 5//swordsage 4/MMOF 1/factotum 10/ warshaper 5

Though the feat requirements suck.

This stuff makes my head hurt.

thedmring

2014-05-29, 05:13 PM

I so need to learn to read the fine print.

{Scrubbed}

shadowseve

2014-05-29, 05:19 PM

{Scrub the original, scrub the quote}

very well. I won't clog this post any further.

Immabozo

2014-05-29, 05:21 PM

what about

what about druid 5/planar 10/druid 5//swordsage 4/MMOF 1/factotum 10/ warshaper 5

Though the feat requirements suck.

This stuff makes my head hurt.

you cannot qualify for MoMF at level 5. You can at level 6. Unless you can get wild shape at level 4

eggynack

2014-05-29, 05:23 PM

very well. I won't clog this post any further.

The solution to silliness of that variety is generally to just ignore it and report it, rather than to do in accordance with the silliness.

Immabozo

2014-05-29, 05:26 PM

{Scrub the original, scrub the quote}

You could have said that in a much less harsh manner. Perhaps YOU need to stop posting until you learn some manners, forum etiquette and realize there is a human being on the other end of that computer.

shadowseve just need to be taught, corrected and made a better player. We were all new at one time or another and someone showed us how to play better. shadowseve, do not stop posting, just read and listen and force yourself to learn. Do the opposite, ask questions and increase you knowledge. Just do it in the appropriate threads

Agamemmnoth

2014-05-29, 05:30 PM

you cannot qualify for MoMF at level 5. You can at level 6. Unless you can get wild shape at level 4

Let me revise said build

swordsage 5/MOMF 1/ factotum 9/warshaper 5

thedmring

2014-05-29, 05:32 PM

You could have said that in a much less harsh manner. Perhaps YOU need to stop posting until you learn some manners, forum etiquette and realize there is a human being on the other end of that computer.

shadowseve just need to be taught, corrected and made a better player. We were all new at one time or another and someone showed us how to play better. shadowseve, do not stop posting, just read and listen and force yourself to learn. Do the opposite, ask questions and increase you knowledge. Just do it in the appropriate threads

Truth is truth. Report me if you must. I just tell it like it is. How many times has he been corrected for not reading? Reading is not hard....

Immabozo

2014-05-29, 05:36 PM

Let me revise said build

swordsage 5/MOMF 1/ factotum 9/warshaper 5

But, then you run into the problem of another PrC (and a much better one) on the other side of the gestalt. Level 6 is the first level of Planar Sheppard

Truth is truth. Report me if you must. I just tell it like it is. How many times has he been corrected for not reading? Reading is not hard....

call it like it is, fine. Correct someone, is fine. Just dont rip them a new one because they got something wrong. Point it out, send them a PM if you have to, give them a friendly warning.

bekeleven

2014-05-29, 05:37 PM

Very true, I love the Bite of the Were x line of spells.

But "Assume Supernatural Ability: Eye Rays" doesn't exist. You dont declare one SU ability to take and can only take that one. You take Assume Supernatural Ability feat and choose anew each time you shift into a form with SU abilities
Page 30-31:

ASSUME SUPERNATURAL ABILITY [General]
You can use a supernatural ability of an assumed form.
[...]
Benefit: You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph spell or similar effect.
[...]
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. You cannot apply itmore than once to the same special ability in order to improve the will save DC. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a different special ability.

Agamemmnoth

2014-05-29, 05:44 PM

But, then you run into the problem of another PrC (and a much better one) on the other side of the gestalt. Level 6 is the first level of Planar Sheppard

call it like it is, fine. Correct someone, is fine. Just dont rip them a new one because they got something wrong. Point it out, send them a PM if you have to, give them a friendly warning.

Damn it. I always over look one detail.

Lets try this again........ druid 5/ shepherd 1o/druid5//swordsage 4/Momf 1/factotum 10/ warshaper 5

That should work.

thedmring

2014-05-29, 05:47 PM

But, then you run into the problem of another PrC (and a much better one) on the other side of the gestalt. Level 6 is the first level of Planar Sheppard

call it like it is, fine. Correct someone, is fine. Just dont rip them a new one because they got something wrong. Point it out, send them a PM if you have to, give them a friendly warning.

My friendly warning was given to him a while back. Eggynack and others constantly correct him. If he hasn't learned by now I doubt he ever will. Now if you'll excuse me I've got a session to run with real players.

shadowseve

2014-05-29, 05:57 PM

thanks guys for having my back. As much as I dislike that chic she has a point though. In my efforts to help I somehow manage not to read the fine print and make an ass out of myself. :smallbiggrin:

I've posted in the because this has relevance to me as I'm in a similar situation as what to take for my gestalt side besides factotum. I'm also going planar shepherd/ druid so obviously I'm interested in what other people can come up with.

eggynack

2014-05-29, 06:11 PM

Eggynack and others constantly correct him.
Well, yeah. I correct a lot of people. It's pretty difficult to do large quantities of D&D high optimization without making mistakes, or falling on the wrong side of a rules argument on occasion. I mean, I could probably find some of my odd past rules mistakes with some reasonable level of alacrity, if you'd like.

Vaz

2014-05-29, 06:17 PM

Damn it. I always over look one detail.

Lets try this again........ druid 5/ shepherd 1o/druid5//swordsage 4/Momf 1/factotum 10/ warshaper 5

That should work.

MoMF requires Wild Shape at ECL4, to qualify by ECL5. You do not gain that prerequisite until ECL5, delaying your entry to ECL6, making it clash with Planar Shepherd.

However, Multimorph isn't really necessary, so MoMF 1/Warshaper 4 works. on the other hand, MoMF 1 sucks kinda bad.

You can already get Divine Metamagic; Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) allows it.

Have you considered Wu Jen? They have a spell called Body Outside Body. Although they cannot cast spells, they can still use Su Abilities. This includes Wild Shape, and Planar Bubble.

Alternatively, if you're an Elf, become an Eternal Blade?

bekeleven

2014-05-29, 06:18 PM

My favorite gestalt factotum build of all time has thus far been my Factotum 20 // LA+1 / Wizard 1 / Human Paragon 3 / Chameleon 10 / Exemplar 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Marshal 1.

Use Kung-Fu Genius, Faerie Mysteries Init, Academic Priest, Keen Intellect to get int to everything. Get int to 45+ and have a billion low level spells. Use Planar Touchstone to get 7ths and 8ths on your Chameleon casting, which is off of every spell list, arcane or divine.

Annoying to get 9ths - You can't use Earth Spell + Extra Slot off of your chameleon spells since chameleon casting can't be used as a prereq, and I don't think you can do it off of catalogues either. But every 8th level spell off of every 8th level list at once is pretty great. With 46 int you cast 4 arcane and 4 divine 8ths per day.

Meantime, you have Int to AC 2-3 times (Monk's Belt, Improved Cunning Defense, Cunning Defense w/insp), Int to saves (Keen Intellect for Will, all factotum w/insp), HP (Faerie Init), Damage (Swashbuckler, Factotum w/insp), Skills 1-2 times, and attack rolls. Use Undersong and save replacers to get int and BAB to saves and succeed on ones.

One of my favorite tricks is body outside body with a 7th level arcane chameleon slot, then spam factotum spells from each clone. Only possible with Chameleon or Wu-Jen, or various other spell-grab tricks like Wyrm Wizard.

Agamemmnoth

2014-05-29, 06:26 PM

MoMF requires Wild Shape at ECL4, to qualify by ECL5. You do not gain that prerequisite until ECL5, delaying your entry to ECL6, making it clash with Planar Shepherd.

However, Multimorph isn't really necessary, so MoMF 1/Warshaper 4 works. on the other hand, MoMF 1 sucks kinda bad.

You can already get Divine Metamagic; Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) allows it.

Have you considered Wu Jen? They have a spell called Body Outside Body. Although they cannot cast spells, they can still use Su Abilities. This includes Wild Shape, and Planar Bubble.

Alternatively, if you're an Elf, become an Eternal Blade?

I may skip mmomf all together. I want to keep factotum. Swordsage dip was recommended to me by eggynack as well as factotum and I kinda really trust him on druid stuff.

I may just go with druid 5/shepherd 10/druid5// swordsage5 (for ninja fleshraker and bear :smallbiggrin:)/factotum 1o/warshaper 5

Immabozo

2014-05-29, 06:45 PM

HOLY WALL OF TEXT BATMAN! You've been warned

Page 30-31:

that feat still does not require you to declare which SU ability you are applying it to, when you pick up the feat. If you shift into a form with, say, three SU abilities, you choose one, and you can use only that one, until you shift again.

If you take the feat twice, you get to use two SU abilities.

Taking the feat more than once, from the limited discussion of it I have personally seen, is considered more than needed.

Damn it. I always over look one detail.

Lets try this again........ druid 5/ shepherd 1o/druid5//swordsage 4/Momf 1/factotum 10/ warshaper 5

That should work.

As said, you cannot get wildshape before ECL 5, delaying entry to SCL 6, clashing with Planar Sheppard.

My friendly warning was given to him a while back. Eggynack and others constantly correct him. If he hasn't learned by now I doubt he ever will. Now if you'll excuse me I've got a session to run with real players.

Enjoy your gamin session. And if you do not have the patience to correct him, then dont. If he wont learn, then at the very least, it is easy to forget thid, but he is a human being and in the grand scheme of things, how is his mistake and yelling at him, more important than the welfare of a human being?

thanks guys for having my back. As much as I dislike that chic she has a point though. In my efforts to help I somehow manage not to read the fine print and make an ass out of myself. :smallbiggrin:

I've posted in the because this has relevance to me as I'm in a similar situation as what to take for my gestalt side besides factotum. I'm also going planar shepherd/ druid so obviously I'm interested in what other people can come up with.

Just learn from your mistakes, grown from them and dont make us look bad for standing up for you.

And what do you want to do with your character? Two different goals, will have two different builds. Usually.

Well, yeah. I correct a lot of people. It's pretty difficult to do large quantities of D&D high optimization without making mistakes, or falling on the wrong side of a rules argument on occasion. I mean, I could probably find some of my odd past rules mistakes with some reasonable level of alacrity, if you'd like.

I had a thread where I rules lawyered for being able to get templates onto an animal, have it be your were animal, and then be able to use alter self ability of lycan template to break the rules. I still think I was right, but many thought I was wrong. It happens. I generally find you, Eggy, have a pretty good head on your shoulders, though.

However, Multimorph isn't really necessary, so MoMF 1/Warshaper 4 works. on the other hand, MoMF 1 sucks kinda bad.

You are right, MoMF 2 is where the goodies start coming.

I may skip mmomf all together.

A good idea if you do not want to commit, a 2 level dip, in my opinion, is the minimum dip of MoMF. However, MoMF 2 and War Shaper 3 I think is a much better idea. Although Nature's Warrior 1 might be a nice dip for you to look into. Some dip friendly abilities there to be had.

eggynack

2014-05-29, 06:56 PM

I may just go with druid 5/shepherd 10/druid5// swordsage5 (for ninja fleshraker and bear :smallbiggrin:)/factotum 1o/warshaper 5
You should probably alter the order on swordsage and factotum, such that your initiator level will be higher.

I generally find you, Eggy, have a pretty good head on your shoulders, though.

Glad ya like my doings of various kinds. I think my biggest rules error was probably when I was pushing for using fey ring to call up a spirit of the land, despite the size limitation on the former. That was a sweet trick, before it collapsed into nothingness. I still occasionally mourn its passing.

Agamemmnoth

2014-05-29, 07:06 PM

Ok so then I think my final build on the flip side will be

factotum 10/swordsage 5/ momf 2/ warshaper 3 unless anyone else has something even better.

Immabozo

2014-05-29, 07:40 PM

Glad ya like my doings of various kinds. I think my biggest rules error was probably when I was pushing for using fey ring to call up a spirit of the land, despite the size limitation on the former. That was a sweet trick, before it collapsed into nothingness. I still occasionally mourn its passing.

I know what you mean. Although, sometimes it is glorious when you are on the right side!

I am still working on a build that makes black holes out of pigs whose mechanics were worked out in one of my earlier threads. I'll present it soon!

Ok so then I think my final build on the flip side will be

factotum 10/swordsage 5/ momf 2/ warshaper 3 unless anyone else has something even better.

I like it, just as an option, consider Nature's Warrior dip for

Earth's Resilience: The nature's warrior gains damage reduction 3/—.

or

Water's Flow: To use this ability, the nature's warrior must be able to use wild shape to take the form of an elemental. Three times per day as part of a move action, the character may transform her body into a flowing rush of water. She may move at her base land speed while in this form but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while doing so. She may do nothing but move while in this form. At the end of her move, she immediately changes back into whatever form she was in prior to activating this ability. She may use this ability while not in wild shape form.

or

Wild Growth: The nature's warrior gains fast healing 1.

or

Wings of the Hurricane: If the nature's warrior is in an avian form or air elemental form, she increases her base fly speed by 30 feet and improves her maneuverability by one category (thus good maneuverability becomes perfect).

all are with a 1 level dip into Nature's Warrior

Agamemmnoth

2014-05-29, 07:51 PM

I know what you mean. Although, sometimes it is glorious when you are on the right side!

I am still working on a build that makes black holes out of pigs whose mechanics were worked out in one of my earlier threads. I'll present it soon!

I like it, just as an option, consider Nature's Warrior dip for

Earth's Resilience: The nature's warrior gains damage reduction 3/—.

or

Water's Flow: To use this ability, the nature's warrior must be able to use wild shape to take the form of an elemental. Three times per day as part of a move action, the character may transform her body into a flowing rush of water. She may move at her base land speed while in this form but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while doing so. She may do nothing but move while in this form. At the end of her move, she immediately changes back into whatever form she was in prior to activating this ability. She may use this ability while not in wild shape form.

or

Wild Growth: The nature's warrior gains fast healing 1.

or

Wings of the Hurricane: If the nature's warrior is in an avian form or air elemental form, she increases her base fly speed by 30 feet and improves her maneuverability by one category (thus good maneuverability becomes perfect).

all are with a 1 level dip into Nature's Warrior

I think I'll leave it as is. I want to keep it as simple as possible since it's my first gestalt build.

shadowseve

2014-05-29, 07:54 PM

HOLY WALL OF TEXT BATMAN! You've been warned

that feat still does not require you to declare which SU ability you are applying it to, when you pick up the feat. If you shift into a form with, say, three SU abilities, you choose one, and you can use only that one, until you shift again.

If you take the feat twice, you get to use two SU abilities.

Taking the feat more than once, from the limited discussion of it I have personally seen, is considered more than needed.

As said, you cannot get wildshape before ECL 5, delaying entry to SCL 6, clashing with Planar Sheppard.

Enjoy your gamin session. And if you do not have the patience to correct him, then dont. If he wont learn, then at the very least, it is easy to forget thid, but he is a human being and in the grand scheme of things, how is his mistake and yelling at him, more important than the welfare of a human being?

Just learn from your mistakes, grown from them and dont make us look bad for standing up for you.

And what do you want to do with your character? Two different goals, will have two different builds. Usually.

I had a thread where I rules lawyered for being able to get templates onto an animal, have it be your were animal, and then be able to use alter self ability of lycan template to break the rules. I still think I was right, but many thought I was wrong. It happens. I generally find you, Eggy, have a pretty good head on your shoulders, though.

You are right, MoMF 2 is where the goodies start coming.

A good idea if you do not want to commit, a 2 level dip, in my opinion, is the minimum dip of MoMF. However, MoMF 2 and War Shaper 3 I think is a much better idea. Although Nature's Warrior 1 might be a nice dip for you to look into. Some dip friendly abilities there to be had.

The only difference between our builds is I plan on going with azure sky for the angels and he's going Dal Quor.

since I have the saint template it only makes sense concept wise to go with Azure sky.

Edit:
not trying to make anyone look bad.

Immabozo

2014-05-29, 08:17 PM

The only difference between our builds is I plan on going with azure sky for the angels and he's going Dal Quor.

since I have the saint template it only makes sense concept wise to go with Azure sky.

Edit:
not trying to make anyone look bad.

No worries man.

And it is all a good build, we only are giving suggestions.

And when there is a quote that you only need a small part of, and nothing else, just erase the text in the quote you don't need. You will save a lot of people from a massive headache

bekeleven

2014-05-29, 08:51 PM

that feat still does not require you to declare which SU ability you are applying it to, when you pick up the feat. If you shift into a form with, say, three SU abilities, you choose one, and you can use only that one, until you shift again.

Each time you take this feat, it applies to a different special ability.

I don't know who to believe here, but it's not you.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2014-05-29, 09:06 PM

Ok so then I think my final build on the flip side will be

factotum 10/swordsage 5/ momf 2/ warshaper 3 unless anyone else has something even better.

That's too many Swordsage levels IMO, at Factotum 10/ Swordsage 4 you have an initiator level of 9th for 5th level maneuvers. That fifth Swordsage level doesn't give you any higher level maneuvers, though it does give you one more maneuver and one more stance, but nothing you couldn't get from your spells.

You can easily get two pools of turning uses to double the effectiveness of any Extra Turning or Night Stick you get, to double the number of DMM: Persistent spells you can have. Take a single level of Cloistered Cleric, get three feats out of it via Knowledge Devotion, Planning domain, and Undeath domain, and get the Rebuke Dragons ACF in Dragon Magic which specifically still works for powering divine feats.

If you don't get a Cleric dip, put a level of Seeker of the Misty Isle in place of MoMF 2, you'll need to use an elf race to qualify so Snow Elf in Frostburn doesn't take a Con or Int penalty. That gives you the Travel domain and adds its spells to your Druid spell list, each can only be used 1/day but that should be plenty, and you can still use Pearls of Power to use them more often. You can even use the Dark Chaos Shuffle to replace your four Elf martial weapon proficiency feats with more useful feats.

Get enough 1st level Pearls of Power and Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend to put Snowsight from Frostburn on everyone in the party with only a single 1st level spell slot, and be sure to put it on your animal companion as well. If starting at a fairly low level you can make everyone else in the party pitch in 2,000 gp for those if they want that buff, which they will. Cast (Lesser Rod of Extended) Obscuring Snow also in Frostburn and have anyone else in the party who's capable of casting that do so as well. That's basically an automatic trump card against nearly every encounter you'll come across for the rest of the game, and you can do this as early as 3rd level. The entire effect of that spell needs to be blown or burned away at once, or it will just reform on your next turn, and its area is too large for a single Fireball spell or similar to completely remove it.