Gestalt advice?

[charlesk]

Hey there,

So my family is going to do a small campaign based on 3.5 rules. We have access to only a certain number of books, mainly the core books and several of the "Complete" books plus Spell Compendium. Also Expanded Psionics Handbook. We can sometimes talk the DM (my son) into adding other classes or making changes.

There are three players. One is going to be a rogue/scout type. The other two have to handle the arcane and divine sides and supplement in the melee area.

I'm a psionics fan and have always wanted to make a psionics character. Also feel that at least one character needs to be a full caster/manifester for utility spells and so forth.

I'd like to have one half of my gestalt be a psion and the other half something that's a secondary divine spellcaster/healer. But I'm having a bit of difficulty finding things that synergize well with the need to have high Int for the psion.

If it helps, I already rolled my abilities and they are pretty good: 18, 17, 17, 14, 13, 12.

Thanks for your suggestions. :)

[doomlord]

The Archivist (http://dndtools.eu/classes/archivist/) is a divine spellcaster that casts off of Intelligence. It's from Heroes of Horror, through, which wasn't one of the books you say you own.

But with those stats, I think you can handle a bit of MAD. They are crazy good. So you could go for Cleric or Druid or Favoured Soul without all to much worries.

What you really need to decide before you go much further is which side you are going to PrC on, as the gestalt rules forbid taking two prestige classes in parallel.

[sideswipe]

there is a wide opinion that a gestalt character should have an active side and a passive side.

for example i built a psion that took thrall herder (which keeps me going as a psion)on one side and on the other side taking one level of psion as i take the first level of thrall herder and the rest of it was taking various levels that gave passive benefits.

explaining further - my character was a level 10 full psion, with a level in cleric for some domain abilities which were passive benifits or free actions. some dragon shaman and marshal levels because as free and swift actions i healed and buffed the party in an area.
one side used all my actions (psion) and the other side just worked all the time with the occasional swift action to switch out.

an example of another gestalt would be a sorcerer or wizard that uses ray spells as attacks. and the other side being rogue.

so one side uses actions, the wizard side. and the other, the rogue side, just gave every ray sneak attack damage on top of normal as it is a "weapon like spell" and rogue gives passive benefits like evasion and skill ranks.



if you want to go 2 casters for utility. just for more options. then there is the archivist from hero's of horror which is an int based divine caster which has a spell book like a wizard. the good thing about archivist is that it can learn ANY divine spell. so it can learn paladin, ranger and druid only spells. meaning that paladin spells that a paladin would only get at high levels you can get at very low levels and the like.

i was going to build a wizard/archivist. but it was so expensive to learn spells. so psion/archivist would be viable.

EDIT - swordsaged EDIT EDIT - SWORDSAGED RED FEL

[Red Fel]

Here's the big issue I see with your proposed build.

One of the bits of common advice about gestalt is to have an "active" and a "passive" side to your build. That is, you could have a whole slew of abilities, but you can only use so many in a round, so it's best to have some which augment you and some which are more direct. Casters are typically applied in one or both of these roles - casters who primarily use damage or battlefield control spells are "active," casters who primarily use buffs are "passive."

Psion is typically seen as an "active" class. Most of its powers are active - dealing damage, imposing status ailments or penalties, moving objects, etc. Some are passive, it's true - for example, Empathic Feedback is a passive buff, and Egoist is a fine discipline for a passive-side Psion - but as a whole, the class tends towards the active side of the spectrum.

If you go with a secondary spellcaster/healer, that will likely also be active, because healing. A buff-caster could be comfortably passive, mind you, but healing is an irritatingly active (and inefficient) choice. Be aware, however, that divine casting generally focuses on Wis (and, to a lesser degree, Cha) rather than on Int.

If you really want to play a divine caster, just play a Cleric. You'll be MAD, but you've got decent stats for it, and the Cleric's buffs can carry your passive side comfortably.

[charlesk]

Thanks for the advice! I'll ask about the Archivist.

I do understand the active/passive thing. It's just been a long time and I'm not sure what's good for "passive" to complement the psion.

Another option would be to go with some sort of "fightery" thing like a fighter. Maybe a psychic warrior for more PP? But I wanted to mostly stay out of melee and cast.

Would Psion//Druid be a good option?

I also was thinking about something like Paladin//Wilder, but the Wilder strikes me as just too limited in ability choices.

[sideswipe]

Would Psion//Druid be a good option?

dose it contain the word druid? then yes the option is good. :smallwink:

this could work. i know you can feat to cast in wildshape. is there a feat that allows manifesting too?

if so then your druid side could be "passive enough" by you saying i am now a powerful beast, and then using your psion powers on top of that.

[Red Fel]

Thanks for the advice! I'll ask about the Archivist.

I do understand the active/passive thing. It's just been a long time and I'm not sure what's good for "passive" to complement the psion.

Another option would be to go with some sort of "fightery" thing like a fighter. Maybe a psychic warrior for more PP? But I wanted to mostly stay out of melee and cast.

Would Psion//Druid be a good option?

I also was thinking about something like Paladin//Wilder, but the Wilder strikes me as just too limited in ability choices.

Druid is always a great option, active or passive. 20 levels of Druid can basically give you anything you want. As a bonus, Psion powers can be used even while Wild Shaped.

Ordinarily, for Int synergy, I might suggest a Warblade. But the fact is that Warblade is a pretty active class too, so you lose your active/passive synergy. Crusader has some good passive abilities, but would drop you in the middle of melee.

Honestly, for Int-based divine casting, I'd go Archivist; for better divine casting passives, I'd go Cleric. For something completely different, I'd go Artificer (which is also Int-based) and craft your party's magic items on the side.

[sideswipe]

i will add that an archivist can learn druid spells.

[charlesk]

Artificer has already been ruled out. Not sure about Warblade.

I'm not averse to getting into melee if need be, and there's only 3 of us so it may not be an option.

Druid is seeming quite interesting if Archivist is not allowed.

Thanks again for the ideas!

[Morbis Meh]

A great passive Int focused class is the factotum, it has limited healing and a slew of abilities that will make you quite Int SAD. It is a skill monkey so you may wish to make it more of a knowledge monkey so you don't steel on the rogue's toes. Now as for healing if you're past level 3 all you need are wands of cure light wounds and UMD, a skill the factotum definitely has.

[charlesk]

DM seems more likely to allow Warblade than Archivist, so I may go that route. That does mean giving up my idea of being a secondary healer, but psions do at least have some self-healing and this thing would be a beast as a front-liner.

Or psion/druid. If I made a shaper I could have astral constructs and summons do all the heavy lifting. ;)

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see... a Psion//Unsure.

Let's see... Psion tends towards "active", and you seem to primarily want to play a psion, so we'll stick with that.

Psions have d4 hit dice, half BAB, and only one good save (Will). So the other side, ideally, has at least good Fort, a d8 hit die, and is ideally Int-based. Now, part of this depends on how much you want to optimize (in general, you don't want to be significantly more optimized than the others at your table), but you might consider something along the lines of a Ranger or Fighter going into Duelist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/duelist.htm). Or, crazy thought: Monk. Don't laugh, it's a great passive chassis when you've got another source of something actually threatening to do. To make the build shine, you'll need one of: Kung-fu Genius (Dragon 319), Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor), or Ascetic Psion (Secrets of Sharlona) - all of which change the Monk's Wis bonus to AC to Int (which is going to be really useful for you).

Alternately, as armor doesn't interfere with Psionics at all, you could, very easily, do something like a Psion//Fighter, wear full plate and a tower shield, put your 12 in Dex (you're going to be wearing full plate anyway), the 18 in Int, one of the 17's in Con, the other 17 in Wis (everyone needs Will saves), and assign the others randomly. Depending on your gaming table, this will be optimized enough without further work. Stuck in melee? Full plate and a d10 hit die. Need a tool? You're a Psion. Think your way out of it. Scouting? There's a standard-action power for that. Stuck in an APF? Full plate, full BAB, d10 hit die. You'll be FINE. Plus, of course, the Fighter Bonus Feats (focus on defense and crowd control).

[charlesk]

Hey thanks. I did think about fighter but was trying to go for something more "interesting".

That said, my DM is not likely to go for esoteric classes. As it is he agreed quickly to Warblade before realizing it involved learning these new "maneuvers" which i don't really know myself. I asked him to read over the class fully, and he might change his mind and say no. :) He's worried about me making too uber a character because last time we played (when he wasn't DM) I turned a simple cleric into a walking death machine, lol.

I get the active/active bit but often find my problem is "running out of stuff I can do". Monk is interesting but I want to exploit the ability of the psion to use full armor if I can. So maybe I will just go psion/fighter.

What about psion / psy warrior? More PP is good.

I was also toying with wilder//paladin. But again, the restriction on number of powers is excessive.

I've also always been intrigued by the favored soul and wonder if I could work that in somehow. :)

[charlesk]

Okay, so my DM not only approved the warblade, he seems excited to see what I can do with it. I've been reading up on it and the synergy especially with the Diamond Mind maneuvers seems amazing.

One thing I'm confused about, though.. if I want my maneuvers to progress, am I stuck with either remaining warblade all the way to 20 or using one of the Tome of Battle prestige classes? The latter mostly either don't seem to synergize well or have restrictions/requirements this character may have difficulty with.

Thanks.

[WinWin]

Eternal Blade is a good Warblade prestige class that benefits from a high intelligence. The limitation is obviously your racial choice, as Eternal Blades must be Elves.

Warblade 20 is not bad either.

[Jeff the Green]

One thing I'm confused about, though.. if I want my maneuvers to progress, am I stuck with either remaining warblade all the way to 20 or using one of the Tome of Battle prestige classes? The latter mostly either don't seem to synergize well or have restrictions/requirements this character may have difficulty with.

Yes and no. Your initiator level will increase with every other non-Warblade level (which is why entering at 5th level isn't a bad idea for some builds, since you can start off with 2nd-level maneuvers). You won't get more maneuvers or stances. And yeah, you're right that most of the classes won't be great for you; most of them work for a Warblade, but the only ones I'd suggest for you are Deepstone Sentinel or Eternal Blade.

Incidentally, if you want to wear heavy armor, a dip in Marshal would give you Charisma to Initiative (among other things) if you put one of those good rolls in it; Fighter or Psychic Warrior would give you a bonus feat or two; and Cleric would get you the ability to use wands, Turn Undead, and some domain powers or devotion feats.

[charlesk]

Thanks for the replies.

What I meant is that if I choose a PrC not from Tome of Battle, they don't "know" about initiator level so I'd be stuck at whatever I was at when I changed classes.

I was looking at Eternal Blade. Elf is not exactly my first choice for this character, but it might be worth it.

However, according to the Gestalt rules, is it true you can't be in a prestige class on both sides at the same time? If so, since Eternal Blade requires +10 BAB and its best ability takes 10 levels, that would preclude me taking any PrC on the psion side from levels 11 to 20, another pretty big restriction. Or am I reading this wrong?

Maybe the PrC's on the psion side aren't that exciting so it wouldn't matter so much. I'm still doing a lot of reading. :)

[Jeff the Green]

However, according to the Gestalt rules, is it true you can't be in a prestige class on both sides at the same time? If so, since Eternal Blade requires +10 BAB and its best ability takes 10 levels, that would preclude me taking any PrC on the psion side from levels 11 to 20, another pretty big restriction. Or am I reading this wrong?

Maybe the PrC's on the psion side aren't that exciting so it wouldn't matter so much. I'm still doing a lot of reading. :)

You're reading it right. It is a stupid rule that a lot of people ignore, however, so ask your DM. Note, though, that there are very, very few full manifesting PrCs (unlike casting PrCs), even if you use the adaptations suggested by WotC.

[Vaz]

Gestalt on the other hand makes it more flexible.

For example, metamind is considered a terrible PrC, due to its half-manfesting progression. If you go Psion 10/Metamind 10, then on the llevels where you don't progress manifesting taok e level of Psion. Of course this means your 'passive' side is limited to 15 levels.

Bear in mind that your 'active' side can be a manifestifester, or spellcasting class, just take hour/level duration spells.

Sorry about spelling etc on tablet

[Dread_Head]

You said you'd decided on Warblade but going to mention this anyway, for a Psion Gestalt I would recommend Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) on the other side for good BAB, Fort, Reflex, 6+int Skill points and the utility of WS. Additionally as a Psion you can manifest fine in animal form. Possibly take some Master of Many Forms or Warshaper levels later on in the build to give more power to your Wild Shaping but not necessarily.

[charlesk]

Thanks for the further suggestions!

DM is allowing prestige on both sides so Eternal Blade is tempting. Though I really don't want to be an elf.

The class I do want has a LA (was considering half-giant). Even taking it on one side, I hate the idea of losing the warblade's dual stance ability OR losing the psion manifesting level. So I'm not sure what to do there. :)

[charlesk]

Anyone have any thoughts on whether it's worth losing a level for LA on one side of a warblade//psion, and if so, which? :) I'm assuming the warblade side, but I don't know how powerful the 20th level Stance Mastery ability is that I'd lose. On the psion side I lose a manifester level and a bunch of PP, which I'm assuming is a no-no.

Thanks. :)

[torrasque666]

How is your DM handling level adjust? Because given the definition from Wizards,
Certain monsters can used as the basis for interesting, viable player characters. These creatures have a level adjustment entry, which is a number that is added to the creature's total Hit Dice to arrive at its effective character level. Its not actual levels, but a modifier to the ECL, and thus can't be applied to one side of the gestalt. RHD is a level though and can be. So are you talking about RHD or LA?

[charlesk]

He's just treating it as a skipped level as I understand it. Actually, Complete Psionic shows example progressions for classes with level adjustments and I'd just use that on whatever side I select.

If I have to apply it to both sides I definitely won't do it.

[Dread_Head]

If you can use LA buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) then definitely go for it, if not, consider how much of the campaign will be at low levels when the LA will be most useful and how much at high levels when it will drag you down.

You can always take Practised Manifester to boost your manifester level back up to full (although you still have slower progression of powers) if you take it on your Psion side.

Or just play a LA0 race, there's plenty of good ones, here's a list. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281.0)

[charlesk]

We generally haven't played with that.

I realized that usually by the time we get to level 20 everyone is getting bored of the characters anyway, so I may just go half-giant simply for the fun of swinging around a large greataxe. :)

I'll probably take the adjustment on the warblade side.

[sideswipe]

i think the people helping do not understand that your DM has house ruled that level adjustments only effect 1 side of your gestalt progression

my DM did this as well. on one side full progression manifester and the other side had some LA templates and some passive classes.

[WinWin]

You might consider looking into mixing up the Tiger Claw discipline with Claws of the Beast. If you just want to be big, utilise the Expansion power. Google "The King of Smack" for more information. It might give you some inspiration.

[Coidzor]

Hey there,

So my family is going to do a small campaign based on 3.5 rules. We have access to only a certain number of books, mainly the core books and several of the "Complete" books plus Spell Compendium. Also Expanded Psionics Handbook. We can sometimes talk the DM (my son) into adding other classes or making changes.

There are three players. One is going to be a rogue/scout type. The other two have to handle the arcane and divine sides and supplement in the melee area.

I'm a psionics fan and have always wanted to make a psionics character. Also feel that at least one character needs to be a full caster/manifester for utility spells and so forth.

I'd like to have one half of my gestalt be a psion and the other half something that's a secondary divine spellcaster/healer. But I'm having a bit of difficulty finding things that synergize well with the need to have high Int for the psion.

If it helps, I already rolled my abilities and they are pretty good: 18, 17, 17, 14, 13, 12.

Thanks for your suggestions. :)

I certainly hope they're not throwing away the value of Gestalt by going Rogue//Scout. :smallconfused: At the very least they could put a martial class on the other side from one of those two and be able to hold their own in a fight and take care of skillmonkeying. Or be a shifty-eyed spellcaster (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240) of sorts.

As far as your healer woes go, these (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710.0)may be of interest (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1520.0). Aside from emergencies, you really should be healing using good gp to hp ratio items. Although, IIRC, it only takes 3 levels of the Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c)PrC to get everything you need as a Psion to play at being a healer.

Since I saw Warblade mentioned earlier, I'll also point out that Crusader offers one way to combine martial skill and in-combat healing at the same time, while also having several abilities that allow them to act as tanks and attract enemy attention/deny enemy attention to the rest of the party. That would push you towards gishing though.

[sideswipe]

is there an initiator/warlock dual progression class?

if so. and this was a thought, i have never tried anything like this in a build.

eldrich claws from drag mag. full eldrich blast progression. and initiator tiger style manoeuvres mix. gain pounce from 1 level of barbarian. psionic side to boost this in some way (i have never played a boost psion so i wouldnt know).

then the psion side could give flight ect.

just throwing ideas out there.

idea would be you pounce from flight and full attack (whirling frenzy) with about 4 attacks at mid levels which would each deal about claws + bonuses +10d6 ish damage.

[chaos_redefined]

A warblade can be a passive side kinda. You have the diamond mind low-level save-replacing maneuvers, Sudden Leap, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Iron heart focus, etc... Just look at the boosts and counters, and less at the strikes.

However, factotum would be the better way to go, in my opinion. Especially since you said you wanted healing stuff. (Even if it's just some oppurtunistic piety) And you get use magic device, which opens up wands of lesser vigor/wands of cure light wounds.

[charlesk]

I took a look at Factotum and I see its utility, but it's just not what I'm looking for in this character. I also think it would make my young DM's head explode. :)

So I'm going half-giant psion//warblade, but I cannot figure out which side should eat the level adjustment. The warblade, if I take it to 20, would give me dual stance mastery. But the psion, if I take the LA there, I lose a manifester level, 2 powers known, 32 PP (a lot!) and a bonus feat to boot.

Thoughts? :)

[Jeff the Green]

Are you allowed LA Buyoff? If so, put it on the Warblade side. If not... still put it on the Warblade Side. Maybe go into Eternal Blade, Master of Nine, or Deepstone Sentinel, since you won't be giving up Warblade's capstone by taking them.

[sideswipe]

warblade is good even if you lose levels in it. manifester levels lost hurt more.

[Red Fel]

Are you allowed LA Buyoff? If so, put it on the Warblade side. If not... still put it on the Warblade Side. Maybe go into Eternal Blade, Master of Nine, or Deepstone Sentinel, since you won't be giving up Warblade's capstone by taking them.

Very much this. 9th-level maneuvers are awesome, but spells (and powers) are much, much better. The cardinal rule of casters is "Thou shalt not sacrifice thine CL," and ML is much the same. If you can buy off the LA, you end up getting both in the end, but if you can't, your ML is much more valuable than your IL.

And once you write off reaching Warblade 20, as Jeff points out, you are freed from the laborious decision between Warblade 20's awesome capstone and one of the many useful and/or fun PrCs you can branch into.

[charlesk]

That was along my line of thinking.. never want to lose caster levels. Though maneuvers are affected by initiator level, it seems less significant.

Can't do the LA buyoff thing. We don't keep track of XP closely, and it would just basically end up giving me a +1 race for free. :)

May not go PrC on the warblade side at all as nothing seems like it would fit well. I'll be focusing probably mostly on Diamond Mind for its excellent capabilities and synergy with psion. Eternal Blade requires elf race. Deepstone is based on the stone maneuvers which I read somehwere are weak, but I haven't looked at in detail. Master of Nine has insane requirements I have no idea how I could fill even if I wanted to. :) Even if I could, I'd have to use up pretty much every feat slot to do so, and probably take some maneuvers I don't really want.

[Jeff the Green]

Master of None is generally achieved through a couple dips. A level in Unarmed Swordsage gives you IUAS, Fighter 2 gives you Dodge and Blind-Fight, and Warblade 5 gets you Improved Initiative, leaving only Adaptive Style out of your normal feats.

[sideswipe]

oh by the way what are your level adjustments?

your non initiator levels are counted as half a level. so if you have a +2 level adjust then when you take warblade 1 at level 3 then you will have initiator level of 2 (essentially caster levels).

[charlesk]

Thanks Jeff. Sounds pretty complicated. :)

sideswipe, it's just a +1 on one side.

[charlesk]

So the Master of Nine, I just noticed, you get a really big boost in number of maneuvers known and that can be readied at one time.. in addition to the special abilities. Is that enough to compensate for losing BAB, HP and other things compared to staying in warblade? Plus having to chew up all those feat slots? Even getting maneuvers from six different areas will make it hard for me to work towards the better ones in any one area.

Is it really that good? It's hard to tell, and that's the only prestige class I can realistically go for on that side of the character.

Thanks.

[WinWin]

Mo9 is 'better' for a pure class Swordsage than a pure class Warblade. Multiclassing for entry is the optimal choice though. This will mean you get higer level manuevers later though.

The bonus to manuevers known and readied is very good. The special abilities are all decent enough, the only one being slightly disappointing is the minor +1 to save DC's.

The loss of 2 points of BAB is trivial. It will stack up if you lose more BAB from multiclassing, so keep that in mind.

To aquire the feats you have several options. Fighter 2, Psy War 2, Monk 2, Cleric Domains. Keep in mind that even though these are not Martial Adept classes, they will increase Initiator Level, in all Martial Adept classes, by half. ie. Psychic Warror 2 will increase the Initiator Level of Warblade by 1. This also works with Martial Adept classes in relation to each other. So a Swordage 1/Crusader 1/Warblade 6 will have a Warblade IL of 7, Swordsage and Crusader IL of 4. Add 5 levels of Mo9 and that will look like WB 12, SS and C 9.

[charlesk]

Thanks, I think I'm just going to go straight warblade, especially since I've never played it before.

Any suggestions for good / essential warblade feats? Need to be from fairly conventional sources (including ToB of course and the "complete" books). Thanks. :)

Edit: I guess Power Attack is a no-brainer at first level anyway. :) But happy for suggestions thereafter.

[chaos_redefined]

For a Psion//Warblade ? Psychic Meditation from the SRD/Expanded Psionics Handbook. Allows you to recover your psionic focus as a move action. Considering your psionic focus can be used to take 15 on a concentration check, and Diamond Mind has more ways to make concentration checks than anyone ever thought possible...

[charlesk]

Yeah that's definitely on the list, thanks. :)

[Jack_Simth]

Thanks, I think I'm just going to go straight warblade, especially since I've never played it before.

Any suggestions for good / essential warblade feats? Need to be from fairly conventional sources (including ToB of course and the "complete" books). Thanks. :)

Edit: I guess Power Attack is a no-brainer at first level anyway. :) But happy for suggestions thereafter.
Warblades have a higher power floor than do many classes. While you will do better if you pick your feats (and manuevers, stances, skills, etcetera) deliberately, you will still do OK (pending the optimization level of the table...) if you don't.

[Coidzor]

Stormguard Warrior can be nice for a Warblade. Especially if they get a bunch of natural weapons to supplement their number of attacks per round.

[WinWin]

Deep Impact is a good feat. It allows you to expend your focus and resolve an attack as a touch attack. For an ordinary warrior, it's probably not very good. For a Martial Adept, it stacks nicely with Manuevers and has decent synergy with Power Attack.