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Lord Tataraus
2007-02-17, 10:38 PM
My gaming group is currently setting up characters for my next campaign which is naval based (i.e. the party will spend most of its time on boats or in port cities). The party is supposed to be a group of mercenaries hired by a merchant to protect his ship and cargo from pirates, monsters, etc. One player, Captain, asked if he could become the captain of a ship and utilize the Legendary Captain PrC in Stormwrack during the campaign. I agreed to this though mentioned he would have to begin as a mercenary. All seemed well until he recently came and asked what class he should start in. So I suggested Ranger because of high skill points, high Wis and Dex, and casting ability (the campaign is extremely low magic, with only Paladin and Ranger as allowed casters). He seemed to a gree but then said his fighting style would be to start combat with one shot with his pistol (this is based with 1700s technology) then fight with only a rapier! as a Ranger! He said that he didn't want to use the Ranger's twf or archery abilities because, and I quote, "Why can't I have the handicap? It will make it more fun."

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Does anyone have any ideas about how to handle him, he is refusing to change his mind and he is completely blowing off the entire mercenary bit and thinks he will be captain within a few hours of game play.

jjpickar
2007-02-17, 11:09 PM
Just handle pistol and rapier use with twf. You might even let him pistol whip things with his off hand.

His strategy is actually pretty much how they fought back then so as far as flavor goes he's in the right.

The_Snark
2007-02-17, 11:16 PM
If he really wants to start off with a pistol shot and then go with a rapier, it sounds like fighter or rogue is what he wants to go more; maybe a multiclass fighter/rogue. The fighting style is pretty cool, though it's hard to pull off. Or just give him bonus feats in place of combat styles as a compromise.

And make sure he knows it might be a while before he becomes a ship captain. This part is trickier to handle, really. Maybe point out he won't qualify for the class for a while, or (if he will) warn him that he won't be able to find a ship of his own for a while.

oriong
2007-02-17, 11:20 PM
Well, the only significant problem is that he seems to not really want to play as a ranger. There's nothing that makes ranger a particularly desirable seafaring class so just suggest that if he's going to ditch the core benefit of being a ranger maybe he should go to another class.

The most obvious fit for his suggested fighting style would be a Swashbuckler, a Rogue, or some combination of the two. Like the Ranger the swashbuckler gets more skills than the fighter and has access to a more 'piratey' skill selection.

If he insists on playing as a ranger then let him. it's his own pot, if he wants to stew in it he can.

As far as his belief that he simply can jump right into what he wants to be then hopefully he'll see that this just isn't so in game, tell him straight out it's not going to happen that soon.

Ashes
2007-02-17, 11:44 PM
What's the problem if he doesn't want to use either TWF or Archery style? I've done that a lot of times as well. If you like the other things Ranger gives you, then why not disregard what you don't like? And besides, it's not like he'll be totally crippled for not choosing TWF :smallamused:
What I would suggest though, is taking the Archery route and just using at least the first feat for his pistol, on the few occasions he'll use it. Better than nothing.

And well, tell him that he'll have to earn his ship. And then let him earn it. It shouldn't be that hard.

oriong
2007-02-17, 11:49 PM
...yes he will be crippled if he doesn't use his fighting style. The fighting style abilities are the only things that keep the ranger marginally competetive with any of the other classes.

He also can't use his ranger feat with his pistol, since the pistol would get only a single shot rapid shot won't actually do anything.

EDIT: There does exist a ranger variant ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger ) that gives up their fighting style in exchange for wild shape and fast movement. This might appeal to the guy.

cupkeyk
2007-02-18, 01:11 AM
Yup, The Unearthed Arcana's Simple Ranger gives him +10 to speed and he won't get Combat stYle at level 2. Since he will be PRC'ing out after level five that should be fine. Honestlt TWF'ing sucks for a fighter anyway.

Pistols are in the DMG, or Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, available to gnomes, Lantan and Nelanther Isles. Lousy reload times but good damage and requires exotic weapon proficiency.


He is better off Swash3, Rog2 Then Legendary Capation or Dread Pirate. But Ranger is fine if he is the bounty hunter kind and he can just swap out combat style and and get a monkey or a parrot. Hohohoho.

Dervag
2007-02-18, 02:24 AM
Suggest that his character become a sword-and-dagger fighter.

Rapier and dagger was a well known and well established fighting style in that era. The dagger might not be devastatingly effective, but it's better than nothing, and would allow him to exploit the ranger's two-handed fighting abilities to some degree.

That way, he remains period authentic without nerfing his character's combat abilities.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-18, 02:32 AM
Not everyone wants to use every possible advantage their character can access. I know, it sounds crazy to me too, but there's no accounting for play style. However, like oriong said, ignoring the key class ability of a relatively low-powered class seems like it could cause problems. I'd recommend recommending the Swashbuckler, or the rapier-and-dagger TWF style, both of which are recommended above. Yeah, I guess I'm parroting, but my point is that you shouldn't get so agitated about a player being suboptimal. Just recommend ways to fit his character idea to the rules, and if he still insists, let him do it, and if he's not effective in combat, well, you warned him.

I mean, hell, it's not as if he can't just pick up a dagger in the middle of combat and start TWFing if he decides he wants to.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-18, 03:22 AM
Make him write it down and sign it. Later when he complain he is being pwoned, show him the agreement he wrote down.

Ashes
2007-02-18, 07:07 AM
A Ranger will not get more or less "pwned" by not TWFing!

TWF sucks for a Ranger. If anything, he will hit more than he would otherwise. So he is not being crippled anymore than a wizard will be crippled for not using Detect Undead (ie. a suboptimal class feature)

oriong
2007-02-18, 07:13 AM
That's not true at all. Against almost all opponents two attacks at -2 are better than 1 attack at full bonus. Now, a ranger will suffer compared to a power attacker since he can't hope to equal the same damage output, but statistically a ranger with a one handed weapon and a light weapon off-hand is better than a ranger with just a one-handed weapon.

cupkeyk
2007-02-18, 08:15 AM
Gettiong the +10 to speed gives him a +4 to his jump checks. Two Dashes vs. TWF is better; 2xDash wins.

If he opts away from a rapier (say a cutlass from FR for pirate fluff), he can easily make the standing long jump check DC 20 to Leap Attack. It's very swashbuckler-y, IMHO.

Ikkitosen
2007-02-18, 08:58 AM
Write an alternative Combat Style comprising 3 feats you think would suit him. Imp. Disarm, Einhander and whatever would suit a rapier wielder perhaps.

The Prince of Cats
2007-02-18, 10:40 AM
If they have quick-draw, might I suggest a historical practice?

In the early days of pistols and swashbuckling, it was common practice for a pirate to carry as many pistols as they could. They take a long time to reload but firing them is easy.

As a DM, I would rule that using a pistol you already have prepared in melee (against your melee target) wouldn't cause an attack of opportunity, which actually brings up another style of combat - rapier and pistol.

I would also say that I used to play a gun-toting swashbuckler ranger in Ravenloft. (using six-shooters and silver bullets, I will admit, though I started out with flint-lock pistols) If nothing else, the image was fun.

Thomas
2007-02-18, 12:51 PM
Straight Rangers are never competitive in combat with TWF Rogues or archery Fighters. If you add in some multiclassing or a good prestige class, a Ranger can be very playable, but that's about it.

Using only a rapier as a ranger isn't a real issue; you're ignoring a few bonus feats that would make you suck more. The real problem is not having the feats to be good with the rapier, either. Suggest that the player try out the Scout (like a Ranger with no spellcasting, but better) or the Swashbuckler (prestige into Duelist for asskickery, or rather not getting yours kicked).

Also, going off what Prince of Cats says, it'd be fitting and realistic for the character to carry several braces of loaded pistols, quick-drawing them and firing two at once (using TWF). Technically, if the DM allows all the free actions, you can get your full number of attacks each round this way - you Quick Draw two pistols, fire them, drop them, Quick Draw two more, fire them, drop them...

OzymandiasVolt
2007-02-18, 01:15 PM
Let him be as self-crippled as he wants. Then when he dies he'll have no one to blame but himself, and will conclude that he needs to stop making things harder on himself than they already are. Or maybe he won't die and will end up having more fun. It's a win-win situation.

Thomas
2007-02-18, 01:18 PM
Self-crippled = Ranger, I presume...

Dr. Weasel
2007-02-18, 01:53 PM
Going swashbuckler or rogue does seem to be the way to go, though. If he's a captain (or if he's going to be a captain) social skills and some of the fluff skills like forgery would be appropriate and the class would probably just generally be more fitting.

If he does want to go Ranger, though, modifying the class a bit like Ikkitosen says by giving different feats would probably be the way to go. Instead of Rapid Shot/Manyshot or Two Weapon Fighting, give him something more fitting to his style, not necessarily anything good even. Quickdraw, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Einhander, Improved Disarm or whatever else as bonus feats would not be unbalancing at all and seem like they would better fit what he wants to do.

Matthew
2007-02-18, 03:19 PM
Straight Rangers are never competitive in combat with TWF Rogues or archery Fighters. If you add in some multiclassing or a good prestige class, a Ranger can be very playable, but that's about it.

Using only a rapier as a ranger isn't a real issue; you're ignoring a few bonus feats that would make you suck more. The real problem is not having the feats to be good with the rapier, either. Suggest that the player try out the Scout (like a Ranger with no spellcasting, but better) or the Swashbuckler (prestige into Duelist for asskickery, or rather not getting yours kicked).

Exactly. Combat Style is hardly the key advantage of being a Ranger and even if it was, this Player should be allowed to play however he wants. Two Weapon Fighting is the Combat Style he should follow (as it's the most likely to come in handy in this type of campaign), but he is under no obligation to use it. The more you try and force him to, the less he is going to want to, and it's just not worth it.
Jumping on board an enemy ship, Rapier in one hand and Pistol in the other is perectly fine. He has plenty of combat options after that, including making Rapier attacks in combination with Unarmed Strikes, but it is up to him what to choose from round to round.

Lord Tataraus
2007-02-19, 12:09 AM
Thanks for the input, I was considering changing the combat style feats or using a variant Ranger. Did suggest he use a more 'gunslinger' style with tons of pistols but he didn't buy it. The biggest fear I have is that he seems to think he won't be in much combat, which is far from the truth since the rest of the party are munchkins so I boost the CR of all encounters so they scrape by with low hp by the end of it. I am planning on talking to him about changing the Ranger feats and see what he thinks, though I might be too soft and should toughen up and say if he gets killed, its his problem.

Fhaolan
2007-02-19, 12:55 AM
Okay, let me understand this.

You convince him to take a character class because of several factors (high skill points, high Wis and Dex, and casting), and then you get upset because he's not playing the character the way you want him to. In addition, he's playing a non-optimal character in a playing group where all the other players are, as you say, combat-optimized "muchkins". [The munchkin bit is a quote from you, not my opinion of your playing style. I have no idea how you play, beyond the postings I've just read.]

Yep, this is a problem. The problem is, he's in the wrong gaming group. There is nothing wrong with your playing style. There is nothing wrong with his playing style. The problem is, those styles aren't normally compatable. Honestly, you (and the rest of the group) are just going to get more and more frustrated with him, and he will get more and more frustrated with you. He wants to play a swashbuckling pirate-type straight out of the movies. You want him to play a combat-optimized Ranger so he will survive what you need to put the rest of the party through. This will not end well. Neither of you are going to get what you want.

Sorry, but that's my opinion. It's not worth much, but you did ask.

As for what to do about it. You need to talk with him privately, and then you need to talk with the entire group, him included. You have to decide whether continuing to play this game is going to be worth the frustration on both sides. Remember, though, this is NOT his fault, nor is it yours. There is nothing wrong with what he is doing, or what you are doing. He is just not playing the same game you are. He may have no interest in the kind of game you want to play. That is his choice.

Thomas
2007-02-19, 06:51 AM
The biggest fear I have is that he seems to think he won't be in much combat

He's a Ranger. There's no way for him to be good in combat unless he multiclasses or takes a good prestige class. Suggest that he try a Scout?

Premier
2007-02-19, 07:34 AM
If they have quick-draw, might I suggest a historical practice?

In the early days of pistols and swashbuckling, it was common practice for a pirate to carry as many pistols as they could. They take a long time to reload but firing them is easy.

Good point. IIRC, Blackbeard (aka Edward Teach) was carrying either 6 or 8 pistols in the fight where he was killed.

Also, regarding captainship... Depending on the setup of the group, it might involve much less actual power than swashbuckling movies make it out to be. Historically, pirate captains were often elected by the crew, and could be recalled by the crew as well. And in many cases, the captain was an authority exclusively during battle - out of it, everything was put up to vote.

Thomas
2007-02-19, 07:47 AM
Also, regarding captainship... Depending on the setup of the group, it might involve much less actual power than swashbuckling movies make it out to be. Historically, pirate captains were often elected by the crew, and could be recalled by the crew as well. And in many cases, the captain was an authority exclusively during battle - out of it, everything was put up to vote.

This electoral process was also known as "mutiny" ... who's going to prosecute a bunch of criminals for murdering their criminal leader? (Or leaving him stranded on an island, I suppose.) :smallamused: And what's drowned at sea stays at sea...

Winterking
2007-02-19, 11:48 AM
Maybe twiddle around with the ranger's combat style feats, as some have mentioned. There's no real reason I can see that rangers' melee option is two-weapon fighting as opposed to some other combat form. So replace the TWF feat with, say, finesse or dodge or combat expertise, and the improved twf with mobility or spring attack or improved feint. That lets your ranger be a swashbuckler and keep the skill points a captain really ought to have.

Alternatively, have the player choose a bard, which offers better reasons to not be in combat, works well with swashbucklery, and allows the option of captainy skills. The PrC will be farther away, but a couple fighter levels can help that. Playing as a bard, particularly, could help with the munchkin attitude of others, since bards aren't expected (generally) to be primary casters, healers, or fighters, and if the support character isn't min-maxed, it's harder to tell.

And then there's the whole dashing, charismatic captain stereotype, which plays into the bard class nicely.

Dr. Weasel
2007-02-19, 12:45 PM
Actually the bard is a really good idea (if it isn't banned for being too magic-y). The skills list would work great, he would not need to optimize for combat at all beyond ranks in perform(oratory) and concentration, and there would be a major coolness factor in it.

goat
2007-02-19, 12:51 PM
If he wants to be a LEGENDARY captain, I'd require him to be a normal captain for a while.

I don't really see how you can be a legend at something at your first try.

Matthew
2007-02-19, 12:54 PM
Good point. IIRC, Blackbeard (aka Edward Teach) was carrying either 6 or 8 pistols in the fight where he was killed.

As far as I can tell, though, that was only him, not Pirates in general. He seems to have been particularly famous for (amongst other things) carrying loads of weapons.

Olethros
2007-02-19, 01:37 PM
I'd deffinetly vote for the bard idea (I believe there are bard variants that aren’t spell-slingers). Its a ton of available skills, major "face" skills, and if you allow oratory as a performance option the bard song could even make sense for a "leader" type character. I’m picturing a gallant hero of the high seas, inciting his men to fight off the ravening hordes of zombie boarders from the cursed ghost ship, it’s very beautiful. He may not be terrible exceptional at the stabbing, but it's generally a bad idea to lead from the front anyway.

Olethros
2007-02-19, 01:45 PM
Also, regarding captainship... Depending on the setup of the group, it might involve much less actual power than swashbuckling movies make it out to be. Historically, pirate captains were often elected by the crew, and could be recalled by the crew as well. And in many cases, the captain was an authority exclusively during battle - out of it, everything was put up to vote.

This was the hallmark of the Buccaneer, which was a specific type of pirate before it was a catch all pirate term. These were the guys that sailed out of the northern Caribbean islands and the United States. Also the first group of pirates to establish permanent land based "trade" centers. They formed communities both on and off ship; if it weren’t for all the murdering, theft and general violence they’d probably be remembered well in political history.

Wolf53226
2007-02-19, 04:43 PM
As far as I can tell, though, that was only him, not Pirates in general. He seems to have been particularly famous for (amongst other things) carrying loads of weapons.

Ummm....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bartholomew_Roberts.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rackham%2CJack.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Edwardlowepicture.jpg

And that's just based on pictures of the people on Wikipedia, and a quick search, and assumes that anyone carrying multiple firearms is intending on using them at some point. One would assume, that IF this practice did strike fear into ones opponents, that pirates in general would pick up the practice, as a pirate would rather have people just give up then having to board and fight. To actually get an answer as to how pirates fought, one would have to develop a time machine and go back to witness the events.

Although the history channel has run quite a few programs where they have claimed it was common.

Matthew
2007-02-19, 04:45 PM
Yeah, I didn't mean sets of two (though one picture seems to have four), I meant the huge numbers of weapons Blackbeard sports in his pictures: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbeard

Lord Tataraus
2007-02-20, 11:40 AM
@Fhaolan
I totally agree with you, his style doesn't fit the group very well, but he's our friend and wants to play with us so what can I do about it? That is really his only flaw.

So now I have to figure out how to make it so he survives, I haven't been able to talk to him yet, but hopefully when I give him some more suggestions he'll chose a better class for his style.

@goat
Yes he will be a captain before the PrC, but considering he can't take it until he is 7th level minimum, it will still be a while before he gets to captain a boat.

And yes, Bard is too magicy for the campaign, but I have considered looking at a non-spellcasting bard, but I don't know where one is.