removing from existence

[Raishoiken]

a friend and i had a debate yesterday that had me wondering something: would you count somehow removing, via wish or other means, as killing someone? yes or no, and why?

[Urpriest]

For what purpose? Presumably it could count as killing in some contexts and not in others, depending on why you want it to count as killing.

[Red Fel]

Agreeing with Urpriest.

Functionally, it's the same, in that they're no longer around to bother you. But the effects vary.

For example, something "removed from existence" could not be resurrected by anything short of direct divine action. (See e.g. the Unname spell from ToM). A Lich so removed would not regenerate either, because there is no Lich to come back, whether his phylactery exists or not. Similarly, a contingent effect set to trigger "If I am ever killed" will not trigger, because death has not actually happened - the thing hasn't died, it simply isn't there anymore.

[Raishoiken]

For what purpose? Presumably it could count as killing in some contexts and not in others, depending on why you want it to count as killing.

it concerned the wood wose spell. the wood wose created by the spell
...cannot be killed, but it
dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage
from area attacks . would trying to simply remove it from existence count as "killing"?

[Telonius]

In order to have been killed, it must have (at some point) been alive. If something is removed entirely from the timestream, there was never a point at which it was alive. It's not "killing" it, it's more like negating it entirely.

Note that if you have enough power to remove something from the timestream, using that ability against a nonthreatening nature spirit (that will dissipate after 6 hp damage from an area effect spell) might be just a tiny bit of overkill.

[Raishoiken]

In order to have been killed, it must have (at some point) been alive. If something is removed entirely from the timestream, there was never a point at which it was alive. It's not "killing" it, it's more like negating it entirely.

Note that if you have enough power to remove something from the timestream, using that ability against a nonthreatening nature spirit (that will dissipate after 6 hp damage from an area effect spell) might be just a tiny bit of overkill.

that's a different case, at least in my opinion. that's a case of making it so it never existed. i do get (and did get during the debate) what y'all're saying. the only thing i can think of as an argument so far is that in removing it from existence, you're still ending its life, but i'm haven't been too sure about the strength of the argument which is why i brought the issue here. how would one go about getting around something like a wish (or another effect, i know how wish itself can be stopped) that removed you from existence. would you count it s an effect that outright destroyed a creature?

[Urpriest]

it concerned the wood wose spell. the wood wose created by the spell . would trying to simply remove it from existence count as "killing"?

The description answers that question. It can't be killed, but it can "dissipate", so clearly it can cease to exist in other ways besides via death.

Note that this also depends on what sort of ability you're using to "remove it from existence", unlike Magic the Gathering there really isn't a clear category of removal effects in D&D.

[NoACWarrior]

If you put the woodwose into a bag of holding then ruptured the bag of holding - then by RAW it disappears and is "lost forever".

It doesn't die.

Most DMs would say that the contents dump out into the astral plane - it simply makes much more sense that way.