Grappler Build: One More Try

[Red Fel]

Okay. So the last two times, I got bogged down in minutiae and thoroughly confused and overwhelmed. I got caught up in an image, then in a class, then in the spells, then in the templates, and I got thoroughly spun around. My bad. I'm going to give it one last try here before I give up on the concept and just grab a generic grapplemancer instead.

So here's the poop. I've fallen in love with a particular combination of race and templates which is easily gouda, possibly muenster. It comes in two flavors.

Flavor the first: Half-Minotaur Primordial Half-Giant. Details in spoilers:
Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) starts with: +2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con. +1 LA. Giant type, (Psionic) subtype. Low-light vision, naturally psionic, Powerful Build, Fire Acclimated. Stomp 1/day.
Primordial Giant adds: -4 Str, -2 Con, +4 Int, +4 Cha. +0 LA. At-will Invisibility, Invisibility Purge, or Levitation, choose one. (I'd choose Invisibility.) +1 CL to SLAs, +2 skill points per level, +2 to Spellcraft and UMD, gain one Knowledge skill as a class skill.
Half-Minotaur adds: +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int. +1 LA. Size increases to Large. This causes additional stat changes: +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 natural armor, -1 AC/attack. +10 ft speed, +2 natural armor, +4 to escape mazes or locate north, +2 to Search, Spot and Listen. Gain gore attack based on size, Darkvision, Scent, Track feat.
Total ability list: +10 Str, -4 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Int, +4 Cha. +2 LA. Giant (Psionic), Large. 40 ft land speed, +4 natural armor, -1 AC/attack, skill bonuses. Powerful Build, Low-light vision, Darkvision, Scent, Track, Fire Acclimated. Gore attack. Invisibility at-will, Stomp 1/day.
The pro of this is that it's a massive, invisible-at-will terror. Powerful Build stacks with Large size, making him count as Huge. (Even bigger if he ends up using spells/powers to grow.) He is strong, he is surprisingly clever, he is invisible, he will find you, he will trail you, he will crush you.

Flavor the second: Feral Half-Minotaur Goliath. Details in spoilers:
Goliath (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=5) starts with: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con. +1 LA. Monstrous humanoid, Large. Powerful Build, Mountain Movement, Acclimated. +2 Sense Motive.
Half-Minotaur adds: +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int. +1 LA. Size increases to Large. This causes additional stat changes: +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 natural armor, -1 AC/attack. +10 ft speed, +2 natural armor, +4 to escape mazes or locate north, +2 to Search, Spot and Listen. Gain gore attack based on size, Darkvision, Scent, Track feat.
Feral adds: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis. +1 LA. +10 ft land speed. +6 natural armor. Two claw attacks that scale with size. Darkvision and fast healing that scale with HD. At 1 HD, Improved Grab. At 4 HD, Pounce. At 8 HD, Rake. At 12 HD, Rend.
Total ability list: +20 Str (!), -6 Dex, +10 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis. +3 LA. Monstrous humanoid, Large. 50 ft land speed, +10 (!) natural armor, -1 AC/attack, skill bonuses. Two claws and a gore attack. Powerful Build, Mountain Movement, Acclimated, Low-light vision, Darkvision, Fast Healing, Scent, Track, Improved Grab, Pounce, Rake, Rend.
The reason this build is awesome is the Feral template. Alas, it applies only to humanoids and monstrous humanoids, so it won't work on Half-Giants. But a Goliath is a monstrous humanoid, so everything's just peachy. Decidedly so - Grab, Pounce, Rake, and Rend, along with claw attacks, make this thing an absolute terror in grapples. Again, Large size stacks with Powerful Build, making him Huge when grappling; Improved Grab lets him take hold of pretty much everything; Pounce lets him hit with unarmed strikes, claws and gore on a charge; and Rend lets him double his claw damage.

Disclaimers: Yes, I know grappling is shut down by Freedom of Movement. A good enough build won't be solely grappling-dependent. For example, Flavor the Second can simply charge an enemy and rip him to pieces, no grappling required. Flavor the First, with PsiWar levels (maybe Tashalatora?) could do all sorts of mean little things. But I know that Freedom of Movement trumps grappling. Yes, I know that Shapechange + Balor Nimbus wins at grappling. I'm aware that casters make better grapplers than grapplers. But I would prefer an actual grappler, as opposed to a grapplemancer. Having some caster/manifester levels to augment grappling is fine; but as soon as we get into a proper grapplemancer, there's simply no further point in playing a grapplemancer - you're playing a full caster, go win the game like a normal person. "An actual grappler" means that the classes are primarily melee or gish-based classes. A few levels of pure-caster are okay; a majority is not.
Bottom line, three questions.

First: Is either of these flavors a good chassis for building a grappler? (I think they are, but I could be mistaken.)

Second: If so, how would you go about it? Assume LA buyoff is in effect, full levels available, any alignments, 3.0/3.5 sources (no PF, no third party).

Third: Is there something better that I could do with either of them? A better use of the abilities and such?

[Urpriest]

Most DMs interpret the "monster HD" in the Feral template to refer to RHD, which would mean you don't get Pounce et al from it.

Invisibility isn't all that amazing for a grappler, since it's easy to land touch attacks so at best it's a defensive option.

[Red Fel]

Most DMs interpret the "monster HD" in the Feral template to refer to RHD, which would mean you don't get Pounce et al from it.

Possible. Looking at the specifics, it doesn't say that the abilities scale up with HD. In fact, the relevant language:

A feral creature gains additional special attacks depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below. It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice, plus all those in previous rows. If the base creature possesses a duplicate ability, the feral creature uses whichever version of the ability is better.
(Emphasis added.)

The first part is ambiguous as to whether it scales with HD. But the second part specifically says "monster Hit Dice," which could mean RHD. Because that particular flavor has none, it loses out on those abilities.

That stinks on ice.


Invisibility isn't all that amazing for a grappler, since it's easy to land touch attacks so at best it's a defensive option.

Invisibility doesn't have to specifically benefit grappling. Invisibility is its own reward. It's like eating a candy egg and discovering the little toy inside. The toy has no relevance to the candy egg, the candy egg was delicious and you would gladly eat another one, but hey, little toy, bonus! Of the three, it seemed the most useful. Although, looking back, I'm not so sure. Invisibility is invisibility. Invisibility Purge is nice, a little bubble of yes-I-can-see-you, but it seems it could just as easily be counterproductive (i.e. if people in the party are trying to be invisible). And Levitate really doesn't strike me as beneficial to the caster. Being able to move up and down, whatever. It strikes me as more useful from a tactical perspective - take a threat and lift him helplessly into the air, for instance. But that would mean an action not spend crunching faces.

Any other thoughts?

[Urpriest]

If Feral doesn't scale, it probably isn't worth the LA.

In general, you'll have better combat stats from the Goliath setup, while the Half-Giant gives better mental stats and Invisibility. If you want to figure out whether Invisibility is worth it you should probably look at the classes you're using to put together this build and see whether you can get comparable abilities another way.

[sideswipe]

scorpion claws. gotta love them.

[Red Fel]

If Feral doesn't scale, it probably isn't worth the LA.

In general, you'll have better combat stats from the Goliath setup, while the Half-Giant gives better mental stats and Invisibility. If you want to figure out whether Invisibility is worth it you should probably look at the classes you're using to put together this build and see whether you can get comparable abilities another way.

I guess so. The Goliath setup, sans Feral, is still pretty combat-stable and grapple-ready.

And I don't know if Invisibility is worth it based on the classes I'm using, because I don't know what those classes are yet. I tried that in my last thread, and learned two things immediately: First, that I had chosen the wrong class, and second, that people were going to offer designs around that class rather than around the "right" class. So this time, blank slate. I'm not considering any classes - I'm open to all suggestions. (I do have some ideas, but I'm reluctant to skew my results by mentioning them.)


scorpion claws. gotta love them.

You mean the Scorpion's Grasp feat from Standstorm? The one that requires IUS and Improved Grapple, meaning that a first-level Monk could qualify for it? The one that grants the equivalent of Improved Grab, which is granted by the Feral template a single-level dip in the Spirit Bear Totem ACF Barbarian?

Just trying to clarify. I may have heard of it.

[Azoth]

Since I saw a flavor at +3LA...Have you considered Lolth Touched, Half Minotaur, Quasilycanthrope Human with the feat Jotunbrud?

Quasilycanthrope opens up Warshaper and gives you DR10/silver. Warshaper 3 is always nice. Immunity to crits, extra reach, bigger damage, free +4str/con, and IIRC (afb atm) Fast healing2.

Lolth touched +6str/con and immune to fear.

Half Minotaur you already know

Jotunbrud is basically Powerful Build without wielding larger weapons.

[WinWin]

8 levels of Black Blood Cultist. 1 level of Soul Eater.

Race does not even matter, so long as it isn't humanoid and has natural attacks.

Clarifying with your DM how Energy Drain functions will determine whether you need a Necklace of Natural Weapons with the Necrotic Focus enchantment, or not.

Scaled Horror is another means of obtaining Improved Grab, the Chameleon Creature template may assist in this regard.

You may as well just pick an absurd race, such as Taer, Skarn or Darfellan, add templates, then base classes to meet PrC prerequisites, such as Battle Dancer, Monk or Totem Barbarian. Take a level of Scaled Horror, then levels of Black Blood Cultist until you can afford Soul Eater. You still have some levels to play around with, so round off the build with anything you feel like. Primeval is good, but you're probably short of feats by this point.

[Red Fel]

Since I saw a flavor at +3LA...Have you considered Lolth Touched, Half Minotaur, Quasilycanthrope Human with the feat Jotunbrud?

Quasilycanthrope opens up Warshaper and gives you DR10/silver. Warshaper 3 is always nice. Immunity to crits, extra reach, bigger damage, free +4str/con, and IIRC (afb atm) Fast healing2.

Lolth touched +6str/con and immune to fear.

Half Minotaur you already know

Jotunbrud is basically Powerful Build without wielding larger weapons.

Okay. First problem, Jotunbrud does nothing. Unlike Powerful Build, which says you're treated as "one size larger," Jotunbrud says you're "treated as Large." With Half-Minotaur, you already are Large, so nothing gained.

Lolth-Touched is a nice +6/+6, immune to Fear, +4 to stealth skills, but it makes you CE and does nothing else. Nice ability boosts, but I don't know that it's worth the LA just to get those numbers.

Quasilycanthrope (yay, I found the link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a)!) gives me the shapechanger subtype, DR, and Disguise Self, and that's it. For a +0 LA, instead of a +1, I could take a Changeling, gain a better disguise trick (nonmagical, so it can't be seen through), and the shapechanger subtype. So really, I'm paying the +1 LA for DR. Yeah, it's DR 10/silver, which is pretty nice, but again, I'm basically taking an LA for DR 10/silver.

Although I do love Warshaper.


8 levels of Black Blood Cultist. 1 level of Soul Eater.

Race does not even matter, so long as it isn't humanoid and has natural attacks.

Clarifying with your DM how Energy Drain functions will determine whether you need a Necklace of Natural Weapons with the Necrotic Focus enchantment, or not.

Scaled Horror is another means of obtaining Improved Grab, the Chameleon Creature template may assist in this regard.

You may as well just pick an absurd race, such as Taer, Skarn or Darfellan, add templates, then base classes to meet PrC prerequisites, such as Battle Dancer, Monk or Totem Barbarian. Take a level of Scaled Horror, then levels of Black Blood Cultist until you can afford Soul Eater. You still have some levels to play around with, so round off the build with anything you feel like. Primeval is good, but you're probably short of feats by this point.

Okay. So, basically, you're saying BBC for grappling goodies, Soul Eater for the energy drain, and then some other classes. Yeah, I agree that makes sense. The problem is which other classes.

For example, as mentioned above, I could take Monk for IUS and Improved Grapple, grab Scorpion's Grasp, and go that way, but I'd be stuck with Lawful. Or I could go with Spirit Bear Totem Barb, with Whirling Frenzy, and go that way, but I'd be stuck with non-Lawful. As a plus, I could still get my IUS fix from Battle Dancer (which requires Chaotic, here we go again). In fact, I'm not certain whether Battle Dancer's Cha-to-AC stacks with Swordsage's Wis-to-AC (despite having the same name), which might or might not make it desirable to dip both. I note that the first template stack has a positive Cha modifier (thanks to Primordial) which may make Battle Dancer's bonus more desirable, whereas the latter bunch has a positive Wis (thanks to Feral, which may or may not be worth it) which is better for Monk/Swordsage.

Lots of stuff, not clear. S'why I'm asking. Telling me "Take this PrC" is all well and good, but I could use some help getting there.

[WinWin]

If you're running with a Soul Eater/Black Blood Cultist, every successful grapple check (even if it is triggered by Improved Grab) will allow you to deal damage with every natural attack. If your natural attacks all have an Energy Drain rider, then you mess enemies up very quickly. eg. An Unseelie Fey Chameleon Taer Half Minotaur Full Retard has 2 slams, a gore, 2 claws and a bite, so will inflict 6 negative levels in addition to damage for every natural attack, for every successful grapple attempt. Add more natural attacks for more negative levels.

Every negative level inflicted increases the odds of successive successful grapple checks. It also increases the odds that your opponent will fail their saving throws vs. whatever other conditions you or your party can throw out. The Chokehold feat from OA is an example. Poison is another example.

If you need something to fill in remaining class levels, just pick something that will advance Rage or grant you natural attacks. Such as Totemist and Totem Rager for a few levels. Or assuming you gain Improved Grab from the Feral Template, just take 7 levels of Soul Eater along with 8 levels of Black Blood Cultist. It really does not matter.

[Red Fel]

If you're running with a Soul Eater/Black Blood Cultist, every successful grapple check (even if it is triggered by Improved Grab) will allow you to deal damage with every natural attack. If your natural attacks all have an Energy Drain rider, then you mess enemies up very quickly. eg. An Unseelie Fey Chameleon Taer Half Minotaur Full Retard has 2 slams, a gore, 2 claws and a bite, so will inflict 6 negative levels in addition to damage for every natural attack, for every successful grapple attempt. Add more natural attacks for more negative levels.

Every negative level inflicted increases the odds of successive successful grapple checks. It also increases the odds that your opponent will fail their saving throws vs. whatever other conditions you or your party can throw out. The Chokehold feat from OA is an example. Poison is another example.

If you need something to fill in remaining class levels, just pick something that will advance Rage or grant you natural attacks. Such as Totemist and Totem Rager for a few levels. Or assuming you gain Improved Grab from the Feral Template, just take 7 levels of Soul Eater along with 8 levels of Black Blood Cultist. It really does not matter.

Okay. Let's go through this step by step.

First, BBC. Alignment requirements (CE, CN or NE) pretty much preclude Monk unless I'm willing to play out an alignment shift, but Barb (and Battle Dancer/Swordsage) are an easy fit there. Skill ranks are easy to come by. IUS is free with Battle Dancer/USS dip, and Track is free with Half-Mino, fine. Frankly, your earlier suggestion of Scaled Horror seems somewhat redundant, unless I use Spirit Lion Barb and need a separate source of Improved Grab.

Now, about the race and templates you picked... Unseelie Fey Chameleon Taer Half-Minowha? I don't get the point of Chameleon, except to get the reptilian subtype (a tongue for touch attacks? okay for Soul Eater, I guess), but Taer? +4 Str, +2 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha; good physical stats, anticipated mental penalties, sure. Climb speed is nice. But it adds 2 RHD, and those can't be bought off. (Although that does open up options with Feral.) So its +1 LA is really +3, and 2 of those are basically a loss. Not feeling it.

Frankly, Unseelie Fey barely seems needed in this build. I mean, yeah, the Str and Con penalties are barely noticeable, the Dex bonus helps offset the Dex penalties, and the bonus Cha is nice, but I won't be using much in the way of saves, so Winter's Chill kind of loses its appeal. (And taking penalties from touching metal can start to suck when enemies wear it. I know, I'll get letters.)

In any event, if I really wanted a natural weapons Soul Eater monstrosity, I'd just dip Totemist for about four levels. That gives me 4 melds shaped at once, which should pretty much cover my bases in terms of creating natural weapons. (I mean, how many natural weapons can I have? Girallon Claws, obviously, maybe wings, tail, bite, but there aren't many others after that.) I suppose one level Barb, one level Battle Dancer, four levels Totemist, dive right into BBC? I could swallow the two feats and grab Soul Eater, I guess.

As an additional aside, I note that BBC has a lot of overlap with my racial choices. For example, like the Feral template, BBC grants claws and rend. Like Half-Mino, BBC grants Scent. It's like they knew I was coming.

BBC raises an interesting question. At BBC 5, you can perform a coup de grace as a move action. Is there a way to render an opponent helpless with a grapple? Choke Hold is an option, but it's a severe one - not just grapple, but pin. Fort save. Oh, and it requires Stunning Fist, which means either taking a Monk dip (and subsequent alignment hit) or waiting until my BAB is high enough and hoping the Dex penalty doesn't cripple me. Reaping Mauler 3 gets the equivalent, but same problems apply, plus it requires a three-level dip.

Poison is also an option, true, but unless I decide to become poison-immune somehow and then coat my body in a contact poison that induces unconsciousness or paralysis or something, it seems applying it mid-grapple might be a bit complicated. (Maybe one of those poison ring things?)

So let's step back. It seems that BBC is the obvious choice. (I'm still open to other options, of course.) What do I do to get there? Barbarian/Battle Dancer/Totemist? Other suggestions? Do I take my Soul Eater dip before, during, or after? Which racial build stub (or modification thereupon) should I use?

[Piggy Knowles]

Here's a ranged grappler I built using Totemist and BBC, if it helps give you any build ideas: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16959544&postcount=130

Basically, it uses Manticore Belt, Kraken Mantle and the BBC's savage grapple alongside Ranged Pin to fire off volleys of grappling spines that each deal pretty impressive damage. It's also a very silly build concept, but it does get pretty good at grappling.

[sideswipe]

You mean the Scorpion's Grasp feat from Standstorm? The one that requires IUS and Improved Grapple, meaning that a first-level Monk could qualify for it? The one that grants the equivalent of Improved Grab, which is granted by the Feral template a single-level dip in the Spirit Bear Totem ACF Barbarian?

Just trying to clarify. I may have heard of it.

no i actually mean the weapon scorpion claws from sandstorm which give +4 to grapple checks.

less sarcasm please i was actually offering something i thought may be useful.

[Red Fel]

Here's a ranged grappler I built using Totemist and BBC, if it helps give you any build ideas: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16959544&postcount=130

Basically, it uses Manticore Belt, Kraken Mantle and the BBC's savage grapple alongside Ranged Pin to fire off volleys of grappling spines that each deal pretty impressive damage. It's also a very silly build concept, but it does get pretty good at grappling.

Um... I think some of the mechanics are questionable. I mean, yes, Savage Grapple says "on a successful grapple check," but RAW or not, I doubt a DM will look at that and say, "Of course, you pinned him to a tree from range with some quills, so now you've successfully clawed, bitten and gored him. Because that makes perfect sense."

I'm pretty sure that I'll just get a book-shaped indentation in my face instead.

By RAW, it's pretty nice, I admit; and the Kraken Mantle is a great grappling soulmeld, I agree. But I don't think I can get away with that at a table.


no i actually mean the weapon scorpion claws from sandstorm which give +4 to grapple checks.

less sarcasm please i was actually offering something i thought may be useful.

Sorry about that. I was confused because I hadn't actually thought about them, and figured you were talking about the feat.

My first instinct looking at the weapon was that, as an Exotic Weapon, it's a pain to have them just for a +4 to grapple. But then I realized that you get the bonus whether you have proficiency or not - it's only the attack bonus that gets penalized from nonproficiency. Which was nice, until I realized that using them would probably prevent me from using claws, which would interfere with BBC abilities, particularly INA and Savage Grapple.

So, yeah. Smart idea, thanks, but probably not ideal.

Stepping back, another question emerges. I think Urpriest was right, and without RHD, I don't get Feral's juicier abilities (namely, Improved Grab, Pounce, Rake, Rend, Darkvision and Fast Healing). That means it's just a bag of stats, natural armor (which I've just noticed does not stack with, but may replace base natural armor), a movement speed increase, and claws. And I've been dismissive of templates which are just a big bag of stats. The question is whether the additional stuff (+6 natural armor, +10 feet land speed, claws) is worth the level adjustment. BBC grants claws while raging, which eventually become permanent, but that's a ways off. On the other hand, I can take levels of Totemist and get myself claws just fine that way. So, is it worth the +1 LA for the stats, natural armor, speed and claws? Or should I save the xp for either another template or just a quicker level?

[Piggy Knowles]

Um... I think some of the mechanics are questionable. I mean, yes, Savage Grapple says "on a successful grapple check," but RAW or not, I doubt a DM will look at that and say, "Of course, you pinned him to a tree from range with some quills, so now you've successfully clawed, bitten and gored him. Because that makes perfect sense."

I'm pretty sure that I'll just get a book-shaped indentation in my face instead.

By RAW, it's pretty nice, I admit; and the Kraken Mantle is a great grappling soulmeld, I agree. But I don't think I can get away with that at a table.

I DID say it was a silly build :smalltongue:

That said, it's actually a pretty effective grapplemancer on its own right, even without the ranged Savage Grapple usage - trap your enemy with a ranged pin via Manticore Belt as you approach and tear their face off.

(As an aside, I would totally allow Kraken Mantle, Manticore Belt and Ranged Pin to work together, as long as the player described little tentacles growing from each spine that grabbed at the enemy...)

[WinWin]

I mentioned the Chameleon template because it is a means of aquiring the Reptillian subtype. That is a prerequisite for the Scaled Horror PrC from Savage species. One level in SH will grant you Improved Grab. The Chameleon tongue attack is not great, though it does have reach and can be used to deliver touch spells. The reach is the only benefit for this build, though certainly not the reason you would take the template.

Taer is not a great race. It is a Medium sized Giant and that alone should tell you all you need to know. The only things going for it as a racial option is Stench Grease, 2 slam attacks and Battle Jump. Battle Jump is awesome. Combine Battle jump with improved grab and it becomes stupid good. Double damage means double negative levels, by the way. Noone actually plays a Taer though, they just take Cross Class ranks in Knowledge (Local) in order to meet the prerequisite for their Regional Feat.

Skarn do not require a template to qualify for Scaled Horror, and they also have natural attacks of their own. So if you're looking for a simple means to gain Improved Grab, Skarn is the way to go. It's cheaper than 5 levels of Barbarian They are humanoids, so they qualify for most of the templates already mentioned. They will need to take a type-altering template if they are going to qualify for Soul Eater though.

I like Totem Rager to finish off this kind of build simply because of the synergy between Cobalt Rage and triggering multiple instances of damage, with mutipliers. Primeval makes you buff, Fighter grants you feats you might use for stuff like Shock Trooper, which is the 'only' way to add Power Attack to a grapple. Warblade can provide access to Manuevers like Wolverine Stance as well as some nice lead-in attacks for Improved Grab to take advantage of. I may seem ambivalent, but that is because I don't see any of these options as better, or the best, with the obvious exception of the two PrC's I keep harping on about.

As for alignment...Chaotic Evil. You're a big, sadistic bully that drink tears and tears small men to peices. No conflict with Battle Dancer, Chaos Monk, Soul Eater or Black Blood Cultist.

This is just my $0.02. So I'll stop labouring the point.

[Red Fel]

I mentioned the Chameleon template because it is a means of aquiring the Reptillian subtype. That is a prerequisite for the Scaled Horror PrC from Savage species. One level in SH will grant you Improved Grab. The Chameleon tongue attack is not great, though it does have reach and can be used to deliver touch spells. The reach is the only benefit for this build, though certainly not the reason you would take the template.

Okay. Let's take a quick look at sources of Improved Grab: Feral template Spirit Bear Totem Barbarian (1 level) Snatch (1 feat, requires Huge) Scaled Horror (1 level) Geomancer (7 levels) Scorpion's Grasp (1 feat, requires 2 other feats)
There are a few others I saw (Illithid Grapple, Barbed Stinger) but they apply only to a special appendage (tentacle, stinger), not to all attacks.

I will say that the Chameleon Creature template does not strike me as worth the +1 LA. Just doesn't. I note, however, that Scaled Horror requires reptilian or aquatic subtypes. The Amphibious Creature template can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid, costs +0 LA (as opposed to Chameleon's +1), grants the Aquatic subtype, plus a swim speed (with attendant bonus on Swim checks and ability to take 10), plus ability to breathe water or air equally well, and the only downside is the -2 Dex. Yes, Chameleon can deliver touch attacks (i.e. Soul Eater Energy Drain) but that LA seems unnecessary.


Taer is not a great race. It is a Medium sized Giant and that alone should tell you all you need to know. The only things going for it as a racial option is Stench Grease, 2 slam attacks and Battle Jump. Battle Jump is awesome. Combine Battle jump with improved grab and it becomes stupid good. Double damage means double negative levels, by the way. Noone actually plays a Taer though, they just take Cross Class ranks in Knowledge (Local) in order to meet the prerequisite for their Regional Feat.

Yeah, Battle Jump is... Okay. I'm not sure that double damage means double negative levels. I just don't see it as worth it.

Also, Half-Giant is a medium Giant. But unlike Taer, it gets Powerful Build.


Skarn do not require a template to qualify for Scaled Horror, and they also have natural attacks of their own. So if you're looking for a simple means to gain Improved Grab, Skarn is the way to go. It's cheaper than 5 levels of Barbarian They are humanoids, so they qualify for most of the templates already mentioned. They will need to take a type-altering template if they are going to qualify for Soul Eater though.

See, if Feral worked, it'd be perfect, because it turns the base into a Monstrous Humanoid. I agree, otherwise; Skarn would be great (irritatingly Lawful tendencies notwithstanding).


I like Totem Rager to finish off this kind of build simply because of the synergy between Cobalt Rage and triggering multiple instances of damage, with mutipliers. Primeval makes you buff, Fighter grants you feats you might use for stuff like Shock Trooper, which is the 'only' way to add Power Attack to a grapple. Warblade can provide access to Manuevers like Wolverine Stance as well as some nice lead-in attacks for Improved Grab to take advantage of. I may seem ambivalent, but that is because I don't see any of these options as better, or the best, with the obvious exception of the two PrC's I keep harping on about.

I'll be honest... Totem Rager doesn't wow me. Obviously, it's trying to theurge Totemist and Barb, and I like the idea, but it just doesn't... do anything for me. I don't know. It feels like I'm wasting those levels if I'm just going more Totemist/Barb, rather than Soul Eater or Scaled Horror or whatever.


As for alignment...Chaotic Evil. You're a big, sadistic bully that drink tears and tears small men to peices. No conflict with Battle Dancer, Chaos Monk, Soul Eater or Black Blood Cultist.

Yeah, I think that kind of becomes inevitable. (A bit reluctant to use Chaos Monk, frankly, but it is what it is.) Barb is obviously mandatory, the only question being Spirit Lion or Spirit Bear. If I go Spirit Bear, Scaled Horror is unnecessary, but I lose out on Pounce. I figure open with Barb, take the Battle Dancer dip (or Chaos Monk, but I don't have that issue of Dragon Mag, so I don't know the details) for IUS, pluck away at Totemist for awhile until I can get into BBC. Find some time to dip SE before finishing off BBC. Let's see... That's 10 levels of BBC, one each of Barb, BD and SE, so that leaves plenty for Totemist. I only really need 4 there, but taking it up to 7 gives me 5 soulmelds, 2 bound, and 5 essentia capacity, which is nice.

I could simply go Barb 1/ BD 1/ Totem 4/ BBC X/ SE 1/ BBC 10-X/ Totem 3. That's a straightforward enough build, isn't it? Drop a level of Totem if I need Scaled Horror (pick up the Amphibious template, I guess). Works for either Half-Minotaur Primordial Giant (he's a Giant) or Half-Minotaur Goliath (he's a Monstrous humanoid). Either one is only +2 LA, which is nicer than when I started.

[WinWin]

Totem Rager: The selling point for me is the extra rages and the extended rage duration. Their Totem Rage allows you modify your essentia at the start of every combat when you rage, which has a thematic tie in to Cultist's Feral Rage ability. YMMV.

Black Blood Cultist: 8th level cut off. It's capstone ability is kind of worthless, because if you have no rage uses per day left, it's well past nap time. Taking 9th level for the extra DR is an option, but I probably would not take it. BBC levels stack for determining Barbarian Rage, so the extra 2 levels are not a total loss.

Powerful Build: Is not that great IMO. You count as being Large(r) for most purposes, with the notable exception of reach and spacing. I would prefer to have the extra reach and spacing, especially for a melee centred character. Powerful build is the consolation prize given to small men in a bodybuilding contest. Actual size increases are the trophy as far as I'm concerned. If forced to choose between Size increase and Powerful Build, prioritize increased Size. If you can get both, that's different, just so long as you're not sacrificing an opportunity to be Huge.

Energy Drain: Is like damage and subject to multipliers. eg. A wight that scores a critical hit deals 2 negative levels instead of one.

Barbarian: Anything that enables extra uses of rage will lengthen your workday. Spirit Lion Totem is good if you can't otherwise gain pounce from another source, such as through Snow Tiger Berserker or template. Otherwise, take Improved Grab, unless you were planning on obtaining it via other means, such as Bear Warrior, Scaled Horror, or through a template. I'm sure there is a handbook out there that details what Barbarian class features can be traded out for something more fitting.

Half Minotaur: It's worth noting that this template can be combined with the Half Ogre template from the same Dragon issue, for a net +1 LA

[Red Fel]

Piece by piece.


Totem Rager: The selling point for me is the extra rages and the extended rage duration. Their Totem Rage allows you modify your essentia at the start of every combat when you rage, which has a thematic tie in to Cultist's Feral Rage ability. YMMV.

Extra Rage is at TR 2 and 8. I'm unlikely to get the second. I acknowledge that an extra 1/day on my Rage is nice. Since I'm only taking the one Barb level, I'm going to need all the Extra Rage I can get (at least until I hit BBC and the levels stack). So, point made there.

The Cobalt Rage prereq is nice, being able to invest essentia for a damage bonus while Raging. Totem Rage increases the capacity and gives me extra essentia, which I can put into Cobalt Rage, also nice. Basically, it's a free damage output augment while Raging. I dig it, but that alone doesn't sell me as far as class abilities go.


Black Blood Cultist: 8th level cut off. It's capstone ability is kind of worthless, because if you have no rage uses per day left, it's well past nap time. Taking 9th level for the extra DR is an option, but I probably would not take it. BBC levels stack for determining Barbarian Rage, so the extra 2 levels are not a total loss.

Okay. Let's see what I miss in the last two levels. I miss a +2 increase in my DR/silver, no big loss there. And I miss the ability to have my natural weapons made permanent. You observe that if I've already run out of Rage, I've run out of utility for the day. Let's check that, shall we? Assuming only Barbarian 1 and BBC 10, I'm up to 3/day Rage, which has been upgraded. Even at BBC 8, it's up to 3/day, but it's not upgraded.

Now, if I intend to make this build Rage-focused (e.g. using Totem Rager, etc.) then yes, part of my utility vanishes once I'm out of Rage. But if I go up to BBC 10, the only thing I'm out of when my Rage expires... Is Rage. I still have my natural attacks (improved), Scent, DR, my Energy Drain from Soul Eater, all that good stuff. I'm just out of Rage - or, really, Whirling Frenzy.

Admittedly, if I needed those levels for something else, I could afford to lose them, I agree. And there's something thematically satisfying about growing fangs and claws when Raging. But I think you're downplaying the convenience of not having to be in Rage to receive BBC's full benefits - and the fact that Barb 1 + BBC 10 = Greater Rage, which I miss out on if I only go to BBC 8.


Powerful Build: Is not that great IMO. You count as being Large(r) for most purposes, with the notable exception of reach and spacing. I would prefer to have the extra reach and spacing, especially for a melee centred character. Powerful build is the consolation prize given to small men in a bodybuilding contest. Actual size increases are the trophy as far as I'm concerned. If forced to choose between Size increase and Powerful Build, prioritize increased Size. If you can get both, that's different, just so long as you're not sacrificing an opportunity to be Huge.

There are advantages to not actually being uberhuge. From an RP perspective, and certainly from a spelunking perspective, literally towering over people would put a bit of a damper on matters. But in this character build, Powerful Build counts where it matters - grappling.


Energy Drain: Is like damage and subject to multipliers. eg. A wight that scores a critical hit deals 2 negative levels instead of one.

Did not know that. Thanks; I learned something.


Barbarian: Anything that enables extra uses of rage will lengthen your workday. Spirit Lion Totem is good if you can't otherwise gain pounce from another source, such as through Snow Tiger Berserker or template. Otherwise, take Improved Grab, unless you were planning on obtaining it via other means, such as Bear Warrior, Scaled Horror, or through a template. I'm sure there is a handbook out there that details what Barbarian class features can be traded out for something more fitting.

Not sure if Snow Tiger works, actually - are natural weapons considered light weapons? Frankly, given how much easier it seems to be to get Improved Grab than to get Pounce, Spirit Lion seems a bit of a better choice.

Whirling Frenzy is obviously still optimal, though, for grappling and trips.


Half Minotaur: It's worth noting that this template can be combined with the Half Ogre template from the same Dragon issue, for a net +1 LA

Several points.

First: Both Half-Mino and Half-Ogre have size-ups. However, these size-ups only apply to Small or Medium creatures. Whichever applies first changes the base creature's size to Large, thus preventing future size-ups. So that won't stack. Nor will the speed increases, which only apply if the template changes the creature's size.

Second: Both give +2 natural armor, which is nice, along with Darkvision 60.

Third: But Half-Mino gives +2 Str, +2 Con, and -2 Int, while Half-Ogre gives +2 Str, -2 Int, and -2 Cha - a net penalty for Ogre. Further, Half-Mino gives Scent, Track, a gore attack, and various skill bonuses, while Half-Ogre gives... Giant Blood. Giant Blood is in fact all that Half-Ogres get, other than the size increase (with speed), natural armor, Darkvision, and stats.

Fourth: And both templates are +1 LA. So that's a net +2, not +1.

Overall, I wouldn't find Half-Ogre to be worth it, but for one detail. Giant Blood allows you to be treated as a Giant. If (and only if) that qualifies you for the Primordial template, that could be huge (pardon the pun). It goes from a +1 template that grants size increase, natural armor, Darkvision, and +2 Str, -2 Int, and -2 Cha, to a template that grants a size increase, natural armor, Darkvision, choice of SLAs, bonus skill points and various skill bonuses, and -2 Str, -2 Con, +2 Int and +2 Cha. That's actually... Not terrific, frankly, now that I look at it. Really quite disappointing. At least until I take the size change into account. Now that looks more like +6 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Int, +2 Cha, as well as another +2 natural armor... For +1 LA. Now we're talking. At least purely statwise, that's a spicy meatball.

Now, if I then took Half-Mino on top of that, I wouldn't get the size increase or speed upgrade from Half-Mino, and I'm pretty sure the Darkvision wouldn't stack, but I'd get extra natural armor, all the other Half-Mino stuff, plus those stats would go to +8 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha. If I slapped all of that mess on top of a Goliath, it'd be +3 LA (+1 Goliath, +1 Half-Ogre, +0 Primordial, +1 Half-Mino) but stat-wise I'd be at +12 Str, -4 Dex, +8 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha, which is pretty sick. Also Large plus Powerful Build. But if I didn't have Half-Ogre in there (and by extension, didn't have Primordial), I'd still have +6 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, before size increases (+14 Str, -4 Dex, +8 Con, -2 Int after increases) - which, all things considered, is pretty nice, and doesn't lose me much for the +1 LA difference.

Short version? I don't see the benefit of the Half-Ogre template at all, except to qualify one as a giant. (Be nice on a Human, I suppose.)

[WinWin]

Natural Weapons are light weapons. So Snow Tiger berserker should work. You wont be able to pounce with manufactured weapons, unless they are light though.

Half Ogre is +1 LA, if the template results in a size increase. Otherwise it's +0 (or same as base creature). I only bring it up because of Giant Blood, which can enable Feral and Primordial Giant on the same creature. So you can have a Feral, Aquatic, Half Minotaur, Half Ogre, Primordial Giant, Unseelie Fey Goliath for +3 LA. Family reunions will be a nightmare.

Unseelie Fey: Only mentioning it because of the potential for flight and blindsense or tremorsense. The Vernal touch ability allows you to negate fatigue with a touch, which could be useful for eliminating post Rage or Frenzy penalties. I prefer the Summer Caress ability, which is a way of protecting yourself from Summon Spam. DR will allow your natural attacks to count as Cold Iron, which when combined with Black Blood Cultist, makes them Cold Iron and Silver.

Rage: Barbarian rage stacks with Black blood cultist. So a Battle Dancer 1/Barbarian 4/Cultist 8 will have 4 uses of Greater Rage per day. If you're going to take all 10 levels of BBC, then you only need 2 levels of Barbarian for the same number of Greater Rage uses.

[Piggy Knowles]

Energy Drain: Is like damage and subject to multipliers. eg. A wight that scores a critical hit deals 2 negative levels instead of one.

Do you have a rules citation for this? I know it's true for ability damage, but I just flipped through Rules Comp and the SRD and didn't see anything that backed this up.

[Red Fel]

Natural Weapons are light weapons. So Snow Tiger berserker should work. You wont be able to pounce with manufactured weapons, unless they are light though.

Ahh. See, I knew unarmed strikes were considered light weapons; wasn't sure about natural weapons.


Half Ogre is +1 LA, if the template results in a size increase. Otherwise it's +0 (or same as base creature). I only bring it up because of Giant Blood, which can enable Feral and Primordial Giant on the same creature. So you can have a Feral, Aquatic, Half Minotaur, Half Ogre, Primordial Giant, Unseelie Fey Goliath for +3 LA. Family reunions will be a nightmare.

You're right; I misread that part about the LA. Problem is, as Urpriest pointed out above, some of the best aspects of Feral require RHD, which none of these templates add. So Feral's just not worth the +1. That said, you're also correct that I could have an Aquatic Half-Minotaur Primordial Half-Ogre Unseelie Goliath or something, which would miraculously be only LA +2.


Unseelie Fey: Only mentioning it because of the potential for flight and blindsense or tremorsense. The Vernal touch ability allows you to negate fatigue with a touch, which could be useful for eliminating post Rage or Frenzy penalties. I prefer the Summer Caress ability, which is a way of protecting yourself from Summon Spam. DR will allow your natural attacks to count as Cold Iron, which when combined with Black Blood Cultist, makes them Cold Iron and Silver.

I know and love Unseelie well. Ex flight is awesome, vision upgrades are sweet (although lacking eyes can be a bit problematic), and +0 LA is unimaginable on this thing. Vernal Touch is nice, but it's a standard action, which is a nuisance in combat. Summer Caress, I acknowledge, is pretty nice. I don't think that DR works the way you say it does, though:


Some monsters are vulnerable to certain materials, such as alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold iron. Attacks from weapons that are not made of the correct material have their damage reduced, even if the weapon has an enhancement bonus.

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

(Emphasis added.) You'll notice that the DR = weapon type clause applies explicitly to DR/magic and DR/epic. It does not explicitly apply to DR/material. And this makes sense - why, for example, would a lycanthrope, who is vulnerable to silver, have claws that deal damage as if they were silver? I don't think an Unseelie's weapons count as Cold Iron, is what I'm saying.

You do have a point, however, that weapons would basically have to count as both Cold Iron and Silver to overcome my DR.


Rage: Barbarian rage stacks with Black blood cultist. So a Battle Dancer 1/Barbarian 4/Cultist 8 will have 4 uses of Greater Rage per day. If you're going to take all 10 levels of BBC, then you only need 2 levels of Barbarian for the same number of Greater Rage uses.

Right, I observed that point. Barbarian 8 (or its equivalent) gets 3/day, Barbarian 11 (or equivalent) gets Greater 3/day, and Barbarian 12 (or equivalent) gets Greater 4/day. Thus, if I go with a one-level Barbarian dip, I can take 8 levels of BBC for regular Rage 3/day, 10 levels for Greater Rage 3/day, or 10 levels plus another Barb level (or 8 levels of BBC plus a total of 4 Barb levels) for Greater 4/day.

Frankly, I think I'm fine with Barb 1 and BBC 10, with the option of ditching 2 BBCs if I see something else I need. That would still give me Rage (or Whirling Frenzy) 3/day, regular version, which isn't terrible. It seems a bit silly to insist on taking additional levels when I could accomplish the same with an Extra Rage feat, assuming I really, really needed more than 3 Rages per day.

[WinWin]

Do you have a rules citation for this? I know it's true for ability damage, but I just flipped through Rules Comp and the SRD and didn't see anything that backed this up.

It has to do with energy drain being doubled on a critical hit. I saw a Sage discussion somewhere which related to increased critical multipliers increasing energy drain which I'll try and dig up.

That's how multipliers works, in any event. The attack is treated as though it hit multiple times. So strength and magic bonuses are applied multiple times, ability damage and ability drain is applied multiple times and energy drain is applied multiple times. Exceptions to multiplication are explicity spelled out, such as with precision damage.

I can understand that Energy Drain may be percieved to function like Poison, which is a Save Based rider that only applies once per attack, and is not subject to multiplication. Energy Drain does not function like poison though.

RE Damage Reduction: I'm probably wrong there. I agree that a Werewolf's vulnerability to silver would make it weird for them to have attacks that count as silver, however, IMHO it is even weirder that a werewolf would have difficulty in harming other lycanthropes. Perhaps I confused a house rule with RAW. It's best to assume I'm wrong on this though.

[WinWin]

Sorry for the double post. No luck in tracking down the Sage article.

The Unholy Power (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Unholy_Power_%28Epic_Weapon_Enhancement%29) weapon property provides an example of increased multiplers applying to negative levels. Also, negative levels are explicitly not bonus damage dice, yet they have a damage function (5 damage per negative level, +5 temp hp to creature that inflicted the negative level), another reason why they are subject to multiplication.

Cue Vampire Lord Uberchargers wielding Necrotic Focus Lances and Lightning Kukri's.

[CyberThread]

psi durgar is honestly very good, as you go higher in levels, the taller you can become

[Red Fel]

psi durgar is honestly very good, as you go higher in levels, the taller you can become

Well, let's look at the Psionic Duergar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/duergarPsionic.htm), then.

It's +1 LA, same as Goliath or Half-Ogre. It gets +2 Con, -4 Cha, not great. Unlike the regular Duergar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm#duergar), whose 1/day Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) SLA can only increase by one size category, the Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) power can be augmented to increase more than one size. Unfortunately, as a PLA, I'm pretty sure it can't be augmented. Further, unlike Powerful Build, SLAs/PLAs don't work within an antimagic/antipsionic area, and can only be used a limited number of times per day. Additionally, there are penalties do actually increasing size, instead of effectively increasing size as with Powerful Build. Finally, Duergar - psionic or otherwise - have Light Sensitivity, which is just frankly a nuisance.

Basically, I'd get a net negative on ability scores (although Cha is a bit of a dump stat unless I plan to Intimidate), a 1/day power (unless I take the Duergar Expansion feat) instead of an always-on-even-when-magic-is-off benefit, and Light Sensitivity.

As tempting an idea as "Giant Dwarf Face-Ripper" is, I don't think it works as well as some of these others. I think either an actual size increase (as from Half-Mino) or Powerful Build (as from Goliath) is preferable here.