The Fighter is Out Damaging the Avenger!

[NotScaryBats]

Hey guys, I have 3 (very rarely 4) players in my game. The characters just hit level 5

Dual wielding (tempest?) Dwarf Fighter. An axe and a hammer, Iron Armbands of Power, and about +10 to hit for 1d10+4 dmg twice as a standard action.

Avenger Eladrin. A spear, Eladrin soldier, and about +10 to hit for 1d8+7 dmg once as a standard action.

Does the Eladrin Soldier feat apply to, say, a Greatspear?

Any other ways to make the Avenger feel like he does a bit more damage? It's sort of become a joke that the dwarf is just the biggest threat of the party.

[Kurald Galain]

That's normal: avengers deal less damage per hit, but are more accurate than other classes (due to their roll-twice ability). Plus the fighter went for a damage build whereas the avenger went for a reach build, and the fighter has better magical items.

Note that the dwarf can't attack the same person twice with his dual hit power, though.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Hey guys, I have 3 (very rarely 4) players in my game. The characters just hit level 5

Dual wielding (tempest?) Dwarf Fighter. An axe and a hammer, Iron Armbands of Power, and about +10 to hit for 1d10+4 dmg twice as a standard action.

Avenger Eladrin. A spear, Eladrin soldier, and about +10 to hit for 1d8+7 dmg once as a standard action.

Does the Eladrin Soldier feat apply to, say, a Greatspear?

Any other ways to make the Avenger feel like he does a bit more damage? It's sort of become a joke that the dwarf is just the biggest threat of the party.

How it a joke that the fighter is the biggest threat? They are a top of the line death machine even when you don't go a more striker route.

The fighter made a striker and not a defender it seems like.

[NotScaryBats]

so as far as I can tell, the spear doesn't have reach. He just uses a spear. Does the feat grant prof in Greatspears, the exotic weapon? It says 'all' but I don't know.

I did not know the fighter could not hit the same target twice -- are you sure about that? I actually haven't audited the sheets (she was adding her str to dmg, but we found out she wasn't supposed to be).

Ostensibly, the fighter is a defender and the avenger is a striker, so logic would dictate the avenger would do more damage and kill more things. This has not been the case, so it has become a bit of a joke that 'the dwarf is a better striker than the avenger.' Ofc, as you said, the fighter is built to be more of a striker.

[Kurald Galain]

Does the feat grant prof in Greatspears, the exotic weapon? It says 'all' but I don't know.
Yes.


I did not know the fighter could not hit the same target twice -- are you sure about that?
And yes.


Ostensibly, the fighter is a defender and the avenger is a striker, so logic would dictate the avenger would do more damage and kill more things.
On the other hand, practically speaking the fighter is a top tier class and the avenger is not.

[Yakk]

Ok, let us fix this.

First, note that the Dwarf has to attack 2 targets -- dual weapon attack was errata'd to be 2 targets. Second, tempests fighters require off-hand weapons for the to-hit and damage bonus, so hand axes/hammers and 1d6+2(tempest)+2 (armbands)+2 (dwarf weapon training) at +1 more accuracy than the above is a better build. Third, he may be multiclass ranger (so can use large weapons in offhand), in which case should be using waraxes/craighammers (1d12 and 1d10B2 respectively) if he really wants to use big weapons (cost: 1 accuracy).

Next, let use look at the avenger. The avenger's first problem is that they don't get a wisdom bump for their race. That costs them 1 damage and 1 accuracy on all of their attacks.

The next problem is that EWT grants proficiency in ALL spears, which includes the greatspear -- +3 prof 1d10 damage reach 2 polearm/spear.

For some extra damage on the eladrin, the next item that drops should be a +2 frost greatspear with a level 3 cold dragonshard.

Assumed:
1) Spear Expertise (+1 to hit, +1 to damage on a charge)
2) EWT (proficiency, +2 to damage)
3) 18 wisdom
4) Level 5
5) Above weapon
6) Iron Armbands

+4 (stat)+2(level)+3(prof)+2(enhance)+1(expertise)=+1 2 to hit, roll twice
1d10 ([W])+4(stat)+2(feat)+1(frost shard)+2 (armbands)+2(enhance)=1d10+9 damage

On a hit, average of 16.5 on a 1[W] power. This doesn't match the dwarf's total damage output, but it does exceed the dwarf's single target output but a lot.

Next, the Avenger needs to focus on off-turn attacks. There are two top-notch non-standard action level 3 Avenger powers. Get it.

If the avenger has 13 strength, pick up fighter multiclass battle awareness for a free MBA 1/fight (requires melee training).

If the avenger worships ioun, pick up power of skill. You can now charge cheese your way into more damage. If not, melee training for a weak version. Houseruling that your the diety has the skill domain, or that the avenger can pick up the feat regardless, also works.

Another MBA requiring bit would be to MC swordmage and Eladrin Swordmage Advance (turns the eladrin racial teleport into an awesome thing). But that is 2 feats for a 1/encounter MBA on a non-standard action: the fighter feat is 1 feat for a similar benefit.

---

Another approach is to homebrew.

Homebrew Avenger Feats:

Eladrin Avenger's Oath: When you use your Fey Step power to teleport closer to the target of your Oath, you can make an at-will Avenger power attack on the target of your Oath as a free action.
Ripped off of Eladrin Swordmage Advance
Doomblade: When you use a melee basic attack, you can replace it with an Avenger single target melee power. If you do so, the avenger single target melee power deals radiant damage.
MBA, and radiant, for a top-notch feat
Blood of Vengeance: When you are attacked or damaged by a creature that is not subject to your oath, you can shift 1 square as a free action after the triggering event. In addition, you gain a bonus to the damage roll of your next attack on the target of your oath equal to half the damage you took on the triggering event, or your intelligence modifier, whichever is larger.
A feat-based version of the Censure, but it both lets you avoid being cornered (free shifts) and generates bonus damage. Does not require being hit.
Pursuit of Vengeance: When you move towards the target of your oath, you gain a bonus to the damage roll of your next attack on the target equal to 1 per square (increasing to 2 at paragon and 3 at epic). Closer in this case ignores obstacles. This bonus cannot exceed your dexterity modifier plus your level, but stacks with itself up to that. You are aware when you this ability activates.
A feat-based version of Censure of Pursuit, but does not require the foe flee.
Radiant Doom: If you start your turn adjacent to the target of your oath, they gain vulnerability against your radiant damage until the end of your turn equal to the higher of your dex or int, plus 1/2 your level.
Gets the Avenger into the Radiant Vulnerability game early on. Note that because of the wording, it only goes off the second turn the target is under your oath, and it only lasts for your turn, and if the foe flees/gets away you cannot use it, so adds to the tactical mini-game.

All of these are intended to be top-notch feats, as if your problem is your Avenger is too gimpy, suggesting mediocre feats won't help much now will it?

[Sception]

Yeah, it looks like your fighter is doing too much damage (single target especially) by the books, while your avenger is deliberately shy due to not using an ideal weapon given what's available to them, and yes, in general fighters do a lot of damage, and 'defend' by threatening with even more damage should the opponent violate their mark, while the avenger does relatively little damage per hit compared to other strikers, and makes up for it with higher accuracy (so their damage is more consistent) and better critical threat. So yes, damage rolls for the avenger won't look all that much better than the fighter in general.

The fighter multiclass is a good idea, and while the avenger has good level 3 powers (ie, the ones that don't say 'standard action'), if the player does multiclass fighter, they should strongly consider novice power for Rain of Blows at level 7.

At paragon levels, some nice things come into play for the avenger. Painful Oath should be their first feat at level 11. Lasting Frost and Wintertouched should follow soon after, unless you're letting them take morninglord, and even then they should probably stick with frost and just retrain it after level 16.

[GPuzzle]

At paragon levels, some nice things come into play for the avenger. Painful Oath should be their first feat at level 11. Lasting Frost and Wintertouched should follow soon after, unless you're letting them take morninglord, and even then they should probably stick with frost and just retrain it after level 16.
They're different kinds of vulnerability - in other words, +2 to hit and +15 damage. I'm not sure, though.

Then again, I think I might have forgotten the rules.

[Sception]

The issue is the keywords. Lasting frost gives a creature cold vulnerability after hitting with a cold power. A frost weapon can make your power a cold power, but it won't also be a radient power, even if it originally was, and even if you're still dealing radiant-and-necrotic extra damage from painful oath. Morninglord's level 16 works basically the same way. If you hit with a radient power, the target gains radiant vulnerability for a round. You can make all your powers radiant via a sunblade or a radiant weapon, but they they aren't cold, so you'll inflict radiant vulnerability but not cold vulnerability.

You could use a crusader's hammer (which makes half the damage radiant, leaves the rest in place, and thus adds the radiant keyword to a power without taking away existing keywords) with a cold power, but I don't think the avenger has enough innate cold powers to really make that work.

The ideal would be that you'd have another character in the party play a morninglord, ideally an invoker, who would thus be throwing out wide areas of radiant vulnerability at a time, while potentially also sliding two allies who, if they had agile opportunist and could deal radiant damage on basic attacks, could each immediately take advantage of that vulnerability.


At epic levels, however, you'd probably still be better off going straight radiant and crit fishing with punishing radiance - an epic divine feat that makes it so whenever you crit with a divine radiant attack the target and all other enemies within 5 squares of the target gain vulnerable radiant 10 or, and heres the kicker, their existing radiant vulnerability if they have any gets 10 worse. That feat alone makes all-divine, all-radiant epic level parties insane.

[Telwar]

Part of the problem with Avenger is that the extra-damage mechanic is pretty much at the DM's whim. My otherwise good DM would have monsters that should have moved away into psychotically brave melee things so as not to trigger my Pursuit Censure. Unity is probably the least-DM-dependent, but requires constant adjustment and doesn't benefit well from a small party.

And Retribution...it really doesn't work with current math, at all.

As a result, avengers are very weapon-dependent, and generally want something anime-size, like an Executioner's Axe or Fullblade. They also don't get any benefit from reach; Oath of Enmity only works when they're adjacent to you (...and they're the only one adjacent to you). This is also why they published the fix article with some band-aid feats.

[neonchameleon]

The Eladrin shouldn't be using a normal spear with Eladrin Soldier; they can use exotic spears. Greatspear is the obvious one but better yet is the Gouge (Avengers don't really want reach).

So instead of a +2/1d8 weapon they should be using a +2/2d6 Brutal 1 High Crit weapon (or a +3/1d10/Reach weapon - either works but the reach isn't an advantage for the Avenger and they don't need the accuracy. They have Iron Armbands of Power?

[Yakk]

Gah, I forgot the gouge!

So the next item should be a +2 frost gouge with a heroic cold dragonshard, and another set of iron armbands.

Avg becomes 8+4+2+2+2+1=19, 30 on a crit, instead of 4.5+4+2+1=11.5.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The cheap (DM) way of fixing this problem is throwing minions at the avenger.

I found that, for some people, it doesn't matter if you deal 10 points of damage or 1000 points... If they kill a creature there is that satisfying sense of accomplishment that comes along with it.

There is a fine line with this but it can work. I've also found it works better for nonoptimizers though.

[Kurald Galain]

The cheap (DM) way of fixing this problem is throwing minions at the avenger.

I found that, for some people, it doesn't matter if you deal 10 points of damage or 1000 points... If they kill a creature there is that satisfying sense of accomplishment that comes along with it.

On the other hand, their teammates may point out that any character with an area effect attack is more suitable to dealing with minions, and that the striker's job is to kill something with high hit points instead. It's not rocket science.

[Yakk]

Not only are area attackers better against minions, so is the fighter.

The avenger rolls twice on one target. If 1-2 hits, the target dies.

The fighter rolls twice, each on a different target. If 1 hits, 1 dies, if 2 hit, 2 die. Plus, the fighter gets a +1 to hit from a class feature.

The avenger needs to hit harder. Simply getting the DM to drop a +2 frost gouge with a cold dragonshard (or flame gouge with fire dragonshard, etc) will boost the avengers damage-per-hit by 5.5. Throw in iron armbands for +7.5 damage, or a 65% damage per hit boost from 2 magic items. (assuming the avenger currently has a +1 spear)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Not only are area attackers better against minions, so is the fighter.

The avenger rolls twice on one target. If 1-2 hits, the target dies.

The fighter rolls twice, each on a different target. If 1 hits, 1 dies, if 2 hit, 2 die. Plus, the fighter gets a +1 to hit from a class feature.

The avenger needs to hit harder. Simply getting the DM to drop a +2 frost gouge with a cold dragonshard (or flame gouge with fire dragonshard, etc) will boost the avengers damage-per-hit by 5.5. Throw in iron armbands for +7.5 damage, or a 65% damage per hit boost from 2 magic items. (assuming the avenger currently has a +1 spear)

How do they know which are minions and which are not? I'm not sure about other DMs but I have them mixed in with non minions.

You don't always throw them out there, there is a balance for it, but using this tactic you can make the Avenger feel like part of the team without rebuilding the avenger or throwing a Christmas tree at him.

I'm not saying it is perfect answer, but it can work.

[Kurald Galain]

How do they know which are minions and which are not?
Most DMs in my area will tell you outright which ones are minions, on grounds that the rulebooks say that players should always have all relevant information about combat. That said, even if a DM doesn't tell, then an experienced player is going to pick up on it really quick anyway.

[Yakk]

A minion is a foe 5x weaker than those you find challenging. As much weaker than the typical grunts you fight than a huge fire breathing dragon is stronger. If minions are indistinguishable from normal critters, either the PCs are unusually ignorant, or they are in disguise.

[Sception]

Part of the problem with Avenger is that the extra-damage mechanic is pretty much at the DM's whim. My otherwise good DM would have monsters that should have moved away into psychotically brave melee things so as not to trigger my Pursuit Censure. Unity is probably the least-DM-dependent, but requires constant adjustment and doesn't benefit well from a small party.

The Avenger's extra-damage mechanic is oath, which is about as much under their control as most striker mechanics.

The censures are gravy, and all of them require party participation to get the most of them. Censure of pursuit in particular highlights how 4e parties work best when the defender is chosen to complement the striker.

In this case, you want a defender who can mark and preferably punish as well at range. Paladins with multiple ranged encounters and area marks, or, ideally, a swordmage. You base the oath target and wap them, the swordmage marks from a distance, and the enemy can either attack you (through your high defenses plus the mark penalty) and eat the defender's punishment or respect the mark and suffer your censure (or an op attack if ranged).

A pursuit avenger without a ranged defender buddy ideally uses their positioning abilities to reach and pick on artillery and other ranged enemies early in the battle - enemies who, if they do choose to sit and melee you, see a dramatic reduction in their effectiveness to do so. Even if you aren't getting the extra damage in that case, your censure is absolutely contributing to the party's success, tactically.

[Yakk]

You can also stuff the oath's target in damaging terrain, and block ways out other than away from you.

Retribution sucks, at least on the surface, because it relies not on being attacked, but being hit. On the other hand, it does give a power boost when things are going poorly, so there is that.

[Telwar]

The Avenger's extra-damage mechanic is oath, which is about as much under their control as most striker mechanics.

The censures are gravy, and all of them require party participation to get the most of them. Censure of pursuit in particular highlights how 4e parties work best when the defender is chosen to complement the striker.

True. High DPR is a large part of the avenger's schtick.

OTOH, the typical avenger hit is similar to a wet noodle without dipping into vulnerabilities and such...which everyone else can, too. The DM pointed out that the artillery that I was chasing was much happier to eat the OA that wasn't nearly as hard as if I had my Censure behind the hit, *and* Power of Skill didn't show up until late in the campaign when Divine Power was released. Oh, for a deity with Skill, Strength, and Thunder domains....

And it's actually not that hard to get your accuracy up close to the avenger's, with a significantly heftier hit, though there is a serious caveat in that it depends on the class. But I rarely miss with my halfling thief's flung shadowblades or my tiefling fire elementalist's blasts, and their hits are significantly bigger than my avenger's ever was, and less reliant on a fairly chaotic party to generate their schtick.


As a note, this is from *my* experience. As hinted at above, my party can't optimize to save our lives. We talk about doing that, and no one does. The avenger's party had a fighter who liked to use Rings of Personal Gravity as many times as he could as our defender. And even with a jagged weapon, I crit under 5% of the time on my avenger. So Mileage Varies, etc, etc.

[Cloud]

Aside from the points that everyone else has pointed out (and that Fighters are the most striker like defender, and one of the best classes in the game, while the Avenger...isn't), I'd easily believe that the Fighter is doing more damage on any given round...when he hits. It could be quite likely your Avenger has higher damage per round because he hits round after round, but those hits don't feel as impressive.

[Sception]

Avengers, like Paladins and Warlocks, definitely improved with time. I have a lot of sympathy for those who tried to make them work when first released, before web support or divine power. In particular, I would not have wanted to play one before tools like painful oath and especially melee training* or power of skill* became available. If you're able to find that support, they can be perfectly competent strikers now, though. Especially if your party is capable of supporting your choice of censure.

I especially like the fact that pursuit avengers are Dex/Wiz strikers, making them on-stat for the key scouting skills of stealth, perception, and thievery. Unfortunately their athletics lags, but a lot of the time you can get away with acrobatics alone.


* That the designers didn't think every character needed a meaningful basic attack option is one of the most egregious failings of the first few years of 4e design.

[Yakk]

With a 19% chance of critting per attack, after 50 attacks you get 10+/-6 crits 19 times out of 20.

If you crit less than 5% of the time with jagged avenger weapons, then you probably are bad at math and are wrong.

The avengers biggest problem is the same as the ranger, but worse: you can steal their striker mechanic cheaply (MC feat for avenger, race+feat for ranger).

[Telwar]

With a 19% chance of critting per attack, after 50 attacks you get 10+/-6 crits 19 times out of 20.

If you crit less than 5% of the time with jagged avenger weapons, then you probably are bad at math and are wrong.

Nope. I might be exaggerating a bit, but it was *significantly* under probability, in fact, even beneath the rate of the other players. The rest of the group even commented on my lack of crits.

I *hit* almost all the time, but I had a distressing tendency to not roll 19s or 20s on either die. I would go multiple sessions, with 3-4 combats/session, with no crits. That may have been some fault with the dice I used, actually; dice I purchased after playing the avenger have behaved much more normally.

[Signir]

Nope. I might be exaggerating a bit, but it was *significantly* under probability, in fact, even beneath the rate of the other players. The rest of the group even commented on my lack of crits.

I *hit* almost all the time, but I had a distressing tendency to not roll 19s or 20s on either die. I would go multiple sessions, with 3-4 combats/session, with no crits. That may have been some fault with the dice I used, actually; dice I purchased after playing the avenger have behaved much more normally.

I never had this problem. Probably because I choose to be elf, with carnage falchion and with gauntlets of destruction. With "Painful Oath" and radiant shard +3 and with paragon path Kensei I hit pretty hard and I´m not dependent on critting. Maybe this is the reason, why I crit too often - because I dont scare my dice with too high expectations. ;D

[zazq]

Avengers get their damage output from being super accurate. Increasing the defenses of monsters your party fights will hinder the fighter a lot more than the avenger. If everyone hits on rolls of 8+, then the avenger double-rolling isn't that great, but if you need 17+ to hit, then the avenger is in his element. Furthermore, because the fighter hits 2 targets while the avenger focuses on 1 target, you can tilt the fights in favor of the avenger by having a big nasty for him to focus on. The real answer, perhaps, is to give them both what they want. Throw a batch of 15hp guys in waves of 2 for the fighter to mow down turn after turn, and a big nasty high defenses thing for the avenger to pound on, and make sure your controller keeps both away from the other. That sounds like a winning plan to me.

[Sception]

No, needing a 17 to hit does not put an avenger in their element. Needing a 17 to hit is telling the party that they're supposed to run away, avenger included. Especially if the fighter needs a 17 to hit, as they'll often be a pip or two above the avenger in their raw to hit modifier.

needing an 8 to 10 to hit is more than enough to make the avenger's double roll feel mighty meaningful. It's when you've got a maxed out light blade thief charger or the like in the party hitting on twos or threes against at-leveled enemies that the avenger's gimmick starts to feel lackluster by comparison.

But that takes a lot of feats (expertise, feat for +1 to hit with CA, feat for basics vs. reflex with light blades, etc), maybe some items, and though you have to hunt for them, you can find feats and items to support the avenger as well.

[Auron3991]

I'm actually going to suggest the power attack feat and essentially auto-use it against your oath target. It may not increase overall damage output, but it will feel good when your hitting harder and are still more accurate than the rest of the party.

The other thing to remember is your secondary role as a controller. I seem to remember avengers having some decent options for maneuvering enemies into favorable positions. Use that to aid your other party members.

[Signir]

Actualy I play pure pursuing avenger level 18, MC fighter (battle awarenes is awesome feat!) for PP Kensei, and character work very well.

But I found some informations about hybriding avenger with executioner. It can be very good damage booster - because if You change owervhelming strike to basic attack... And PP for executioners looks very fine to me. With rapier and if you MC fighter for more fun with feat, that give You attack Reflex instead AC, well, this is the option to bring some real pain for enemies. (And feat from executioner, that give you permanent cover? I cant remember his name).