Disjunction and Epic Spells

[Someonelse]

Maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but so far I haven't found anything anywhere that clearly states how disjunction interacts with epic level spells. Can a 9th level spell disjoin a high powered epic buff spell? Should the caster receive some kind of caster level check or spellcraft check relevant to the epic spell's DC or caster level? Should the target get a will save like they would with a magic item? Or does Disjunction just disjoin everything that isn't an artifact?

As an aside, I wonder how disjunction works with spells cast by a god (aka a creature with divine rank).

[Kazudo]

Epic spells cannot be stored in magical items. They can only be stored in artifacts.



Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)


This would lead me to believe that you have a 1% chance to affect an epic spell. Though I have no direct RAW, it would appear that aside from that caveat it works as normal.

EDIT: Ah, I found it. It ends the effect just as Dispel Magic does. Greater Dispel Magic says this in Epic Spells:



A lucky nonepic spellcaster casting greater dispel magic might be able to dispel an epic spell. The game mechanics do not change, and epic spells do not occupy any privileged position allowing them to resist being dispelled other than their presumably high caster level. Likewise, epic spells using the dispel seed can dispel nonepic spells. Such epic spells use the same game mechanic: The check to dispel is 1d20 + a specified number (usually dispeller’s level), and the DC is 11 + the spellcaster’s level.


Which tells me that, since Disjunction just works as Dispel Magic, that it doesn't work since you need Greater Dispel Magic to do it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Disjunction works the same against epic spells as it does against non-epic spells, unless you use the Ward seed to protect against it.


A lucky nonepic spellcaster casting greater dispel magic might be able to dispel an epic spell. The game mechanics do not change, and epic spells do not occupy any privileged position allowing them to resist being dispelled other than their presumably high caster level

It doesn't outright mention Disjunction but since there's no specific rule the general rules applies (all magic is ended as if subject to a successful dispel).

[Kazudo]

Dispel Magic, however, specifically has a maximum caster level of +10, which would mean a maximum result of 30. Epic Spells can be cast by spellcasters with a spellcaster level of 21, which would mean that the DC to use normal Dispel Magic on an Epic Level Spell would be at minimum 32 (11+CL, which is 21 at minimum).

You can't Dispel Magic on an Epic Level Spell due to a mathematical cliff. You have to use Greater Dispel Magic. Mage's Disjunction specifically says that it uses Dispel Magic.

[Someonelse]

Ah...
Looks like I didn't look hard enough after all.
You have my apologies and my gratitude

[Someonelse]

but what about disjoining spells cast by a god?

[Melcar]

Normal spells and epic spells interact just like normal spell and normal spells do, exept epic are considered level 10. Mordenkainen's Disjunction does indeed disjoin epic spells.

EDIT: And epic magic items - and follows the standard rule for artifacts!

[Max Caysey]

If the god in question has a saliant divine ability making it immune to mortal magic then no. If nothing like that is pressent, then Mordenkainen's Disjunction does affect magic cast by divine and primordial beings. Know this. Mordenkainen's Disjunction is really a very very powerful spell. Make no mistake!

[Darkweave31]

Yes disjunction defeats even epic magic, one of the few ways to actually take it down.

[Gullintanni]

Dispel Magic, however, specifically has a maximum caster level of +10, which would mean a maximum result of 30. Epic Spells can be cast by spellcasters with a spellcaster level of 21, which would mean that the DC to use normal Dispel Magic on an Epic Level Spell would be at minimum 32 (11+CL, which is 21 at minimum).

You can't Dispel Magic on an Epic Level Spell due to a mathematical cliff. You have to use Greater Dispel Magic. Mage's Disjunction specifically says that it uses Dispel Magic.

You're reading the description of Disjunction incorrectly. There is no caster level ceiling on the spell. Instead, spells targeted by Disjunction are ended automatically with no chance to save per the following:

All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined.

There is no qualifying language, and specific trumps general, therefore, the wording here trumps any language in any other spell description. The bold language here,

"That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item. An item in a creature’s possession uses its own Will save bonus or its possessor’s Will save bonus, whichever is higher."

...refers specifically to how the targeted spells and spell-like abilities resolve being ended. That is to say, spells and spell likes affected by Disjunction are affected identically to spells and spell like abilities that are successfully ended by a Dispel Magic. In all cases, Disjunction mimics exclusively castings of Dispel Magic that have won their caster level checks.

Items and Artifacts resist disjoining as per the spell description.