Classes for TWF [3.5]

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys. So, I want to make a lawful evil TWFighter. And I'm wondering what class to pick. Low-mid optimization (I still want to pick a good class with bonus damage and the like). Just to make things difficult I don't want to go rogue, or any TOB class. Thanks, and as always, go nuts.

[sideswipe]

how about ranger? it gets some two weapon fighting feats for free and bonus damage progression.

any information about the campaign setting?

[gorfnab]

Ranger + Scout with the Swift Hunter feat.
Swift Hunter Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103)

[Teapot Salty]

how about ranger? it gets some two weapon fighting feats for free and bonus damage progression.

any information about the campaign setting?

No clue, it's just a concept I have in mind.

[sideswipe]

No clue, it's just a concept I have in mind.

ok. its just the ranger's favoured enemy can be manipulated to heavily favour the campaign. for example in an urban environment you can select a guild instead of a type of creature.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Skirmish (via scout) is probably your best bet if you don't want to go rogue. You will, of course, go Swift Hunter, because the ranger chassis and spells are just so much better. Now all you need is a way to get pounce or free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement)of your choice. LE means a Barbarian dip is off the table, but cloistered cleric for Knowledge Devotion and Travel Devotion is a solid option; you might even grab a third Devotion feat that way for more options. (Fharlanghn can give you Air (50% miss chance vs ranged attacks) or Protection; Animal Devotion would be wonderful if you could swing it)

[Darrin]

Ranger + Scout with the Swift Hunter feat.
Swift Hunter Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103)

Seconding Swift Hunter. Lawful Evil rules out Bardblade, which is probably #1 in damage output, followed by either Rogue/Daring Outlaw or Swift Hunter. And you said no Rogue.

Also:

TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook).

[Urpriest]

Are you willing to go with Precision damage at all? Because a build with Avenging Executioner and Ghost-Faced Killer would be pretty fun.

[Andezzar]

Ranger + Scout with the Swift Hunter feat.
Swift Hunter Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103)You cannot use TWF unless you use a Full Attack. Skirmish damage is only added if you move 10 ft or more. So TWF and Skirmish damage do not work well together.

Otherwise Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 with the Daring Outlaw Feat and possibly Craven should do reasonably well, even though its pretty feat intensive.

[Diovid]

Build: Fighter 5 / Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon) 1 / Fighter + 4 / Scarlet Corsair (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050805b) 10
Race: Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs)
Fighter variants: Zhentarim Fighter (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter), Dead Levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a), Skilled City-Dweller (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) and either Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) or Hit-and-Run Fighter (Drow of the Underdark).

Focus skills/feats/skill tricks/traits on bluffing, feiting, intimidation, sneak attacks and of course TWF. See also: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8759.0

[Fouredged Sword]

Disciple of Dispater crit fisher with light maces for lightning mace multiple attacks?

Fighter X / DoD X, take the prereq feats and improved critical for high crit threat ranges, and thus the ability to attack tons of times.

Avoid the cheese of aptitude weapons.

[Zombulian]

Hey guys. So, I want to make a lawful evil TWFighter. And I'm wondering what class to pick. Low-mid optimization (I still want to pick a good class with bonus damage and the like). Just to make things difficult I don't want to go rogue, or any TOB class. Thanks, and as always, go nuts.

Some of the best things you can do for TWF is getting your hands on bonus damage on hit. Evil Incarnate dip, Scout for Skirmish, Rogue for Sneak Attack, etc.

Depending on what look you're going for you can do some interesting things.
Going Fighter with EWP Bastard Sword as well as Oversized TWF, Power Attack and Shock Trooper+Leap Attack. Then moving into Exotic Weapon Master. Get Pounce so you can full attack on your charge and blammo, x4 (minimum) PA damage on both weapons.

Otherwise you can go for things like a Cloistered Cleric dip for Knowledge and Travel Devotion, into a Scout/Rogue Swift Ambusher build.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dragonsplits + Exotic Weapon Master (for Uncanny Blow) allows you to Power attack with them as if you were two-handing them, so you get 1:2 power attack ratio with them, that alone can increase your damage output to decent levels, add in other melee tricks like Leap attack and/or shocktrooper and go to town. You might want to nab pounce though.

[Urpriest]

You cannot use TWF unless you use a Full Attack. Skirmish damage is only added if you move 10 ft or more. So TWF and Skirmish damage do not work well together.


Luckily, literally no-one builds a melee Scout that can't move and full attack in the same round, so that never comes up.

[DMVerdandi]

Wizard.

Prepare Extended heroics out the wazoo. Gain all necessary fighter feats.
Buff to high heaven, be better than fighter.
If you can, find way to reduce cost of persistent spell. If you can, then everything is all good.

[Gadora]

Skirmish (via scout) is probably your best bet if you don't want to go rogue. You will, of course, go Swift Hunter, because the ranger chassis and spells are just so much better. Now all you need is a way to get pounce or free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement)of your choice. LE means a Barbarian dip is off the table, but cloistered cleric for Knowledge Devotion and Travel Devotion is a solid option; you might even grab a third Devotion feat that way for more options. (Fharlanghn can give you Air (50% miss chance vs ranged attacks) or Protection; Animal Devotion would be wonderful if you could swing it)

Doesn't lawful evil also rule out cleric of Fharlanghn?

[Baroknik]

TWF'ing on a spellthief could be fun. AFAIK each sneak attack gives the option of stealing a spell. Purge the witch!

[sideswipe]

use travel devotion and a few other movement things if you wish.

my favourite method is to optimise tumble so that you can easily make the DC40 tumble check for a 10ft step. meaning you can just walk around your target 2 squares, triggering skirmish. and since it counts as a 5ft step you can make a full attack.

maybe be a raptorian too so that movement is even easier.

[SoraWolf7]

Are you willing to go with Precision damage at all? Because a build with Avenging Executioner and Ghost-Faced Killer would be pretty fun.

How would that work in build, because that does sound pretty fun? With everything from both classes, that's 6d6 of sudden strike damage, not counting anything from the five levels in a full BAB class to qualify for both classes.

[Baroknik]

How would that work in build, because that does sound pretty fun? With everything from both classes, that's 6d6 of sudden strike damage, not counting anything from the five levels in a full BAB class to qualify for both classes.

Sneak Attack Fighter may help there, full BAB and SA.

[Urpriest]

How would that work in build, because that does sound pretty fun? With everything from both classes, that's 6d6 of sudden strike damage, not counting anything from the five levels in a full BAB class to qualify for both classes.


Sneak Attack Fighter may help there, full BAB and SA.

SA doesn't really help with that too much though, since Avenging Executioner can only trigger Sudden Strike.

Thinking harder about this, Dread Commando might be a better thing to put in than Ghost-Faced Killer, the same amount of Sudden Strike in fewer levels.

In general, I'd browse the Lists of Stuff for sources of Sudden Strike that don't sacrifice much (or any) BAB. Ghost-Faced Killer has some cool aspects, but the per-day limit on its abilities is kind of annoying. Pile up Sudden Strike, trigger it with Avenging Executioner, and get your first fear going with Dreadful Wrath or something similar. Maybe look into Fighter-based intimidation, although the two don't work together that well.

[SoraWolf7]

SA doesn't really help with that too much though, since Avenging Executioner can only trigger Sudden Strike.

Thinking harder about this, Dread Commando might be a better thing to put in than Ghost-Faced Killer, the same amount of Sudden Strike in fewer levels.

In general, I'd browse the Lists of Stuff for sources of Sudden Strike that don't sacrifice much (or any) BAB. Ghost-Faced Killer has some cool aspects, but the per-day limit on its abilities is kind of annoying. Pile up Sudden Strike, trigger it with Avenging Executioner, and get your first fear going with Dreadful Wrath or something similar. Maybe look into Fighter-based intimidation, although the two don't work together that well.

At the moment, it looks like Sneak Attack Fighter 5 combined with Dread Fang of Lolth for five levels, and then Avenging Executioner, and Dread Commando seems to be the best bet at first glance.

[dextercorvia]

Doesn't lawful evil also rule out cleric of Fharlanghn?

Sure, but you can fluff an ideal to fit any two domains you want.

[Kennisiou]

If you're evil... have you considered a ranger/assassin build (probably with some dip to get easier assassin access into bard/rogue/factotum for skills). You get sneak attack progression, full BaB, good HD, and a spell list. Assassin's not an A-List TWF class for sure, but it's definitely no slouch either, especially if you can get easy access to poison and means of getting more poison use out of your weapons before having to reapply it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Hm, no ToB class, but are feats okay?

Spellthief 1/Drow Fighter 2, whirlpounce barbarian 1 and cloistered cleric 1 to taste, add whatever else fits for you. Feats of import: TWF, Weapon Finesse, Martial Study, Martial Stance, Shadow Blade, Craven. Get 2x dexterity to damage and 1d6+HD sneak attack.

Or, since TWF is the requirement... you could TWF like a STRONG MAN.

Whirlpounce Barbarian 1/Ranger 2/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6, TWFing with a two hander and armor spikes. Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper, tone down where necessary.

[Immabozo]

Fighter 2 and psychic warrior 2 gives you 4 feats, 3 BAB, 3 PP and 3 1st level powers known (I suggest Share Pain and take Psicrystal Affinity for effectively Hardness 8). TWF is feat intensive. At level 4, Kalashatir (for bonus PP) and 2 flaws will give you 6 feats.

EDIT: not share pain, thats a second level power. But you can take Expansion for the bonus str, gnomish quickrazor + Iajatsu focus + the psionic feat to allow you to resolve your attacks as a touch attack will rip.

[dextercorvia]

But you can take Expansion for the bonus str, gnomish quickrazor + Iajatsu focus + the psionic feat to allow you to resolve your attacks as a touch attack will rip.

Only one attack, and you have to expend your focus to make it happen. I've never been able to justify taking that feat, a feat intensive build would certainly be missing something better if they do.

[Darrin]

Only one attack, and you have to expend your focus to make it happen. I've never been able to justify taking that feat, a feat intensive build would certainly be missing something better if they do.

If you want all your attacks to be touch attacks, just use the Poison Ring from Dragon Compendium. Only does 1 damage, but on a sneak attack/skirmish build, you're golden.

[Zombulian]

If you want all your attacks to be touch attacks, just use the Poison Ring from Dragon Compendium. Only does 1 damage, but on a sneak attack/skirmish build, you're golden.

Wat. that's genius.

[lytokk]

Haven't read all of the entries yet, but in my game one of the players is playing a psychic warrior focusing on twf using kukris with I think corrosive weapon and quickdraw. Since there doesn't seem to be a duration on the power, he spends his downtime casting it on as many masterwork kukris as he can find and investing heavily in bandoliers and belts to carry as many as possible into battle. I think he also took weapon finesse since they're all light weapons.

[Psyren]

I vote Psychic Rogue. You get precision damage and Hustle so that you can move your speed as swift action and then full attack. You can also use Hustle + Improved Feint (or just Psionic Feint (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723c) to feint as a swift action, then add in Surprising Riposte (DotU) to keep them flatfooted for the entire round and get off a full-sneak-attack yet again. Combines well with Schism also.

[Zombulian]

Haven't read all of the entries yet, but in my game one of the players is playing a psychic warrior focusing on twf using kukris with I think corrosive weapon and quickdraw. Since there doesn't seem to be a duration on the power, he spends his downtime casting it on as many masterwork kukris as he can find and investing heavily in bandoliers and belts to carry as many as possible into battle. I think he also took weapon finesse since they're all light weapons.

This reminds me of a question I had recently. I know switching which hand a weapon is in is a free action, but if you already have a weapon in hand and don't want to drop it, could you say, put both light weapons in 1 hand and not try to attack with them?

[Immabozo]

Only one attack, and you have to expend your focus to make it happen. I've never been able to justify taking that feat, a feat intensive build would certainly be missing something better if they do.

I see your point. But I love the poison ring idea! That one rips!


If you want all your attacks to be touch attacks, just use the Poison Ring from Dragon Compendium. Only does 1 damage, but on a sneak attack/skirmish build, you're golden.

Can Gnomish Quickrazor + Iajatsu Focus + Sneak attack + poison ring all stack together? Cause that would rip!

[Zombulian]

I see your point. But I love the poison ring idea! That one rips!



Can Gnomish Quickrazor + Iajatsu Focus + Sneak attack + poison ring all stack together? Cause that would rip!

Poison Ring itself is a weapon and so is the quickrazor, so no on those.
As an aside, any piercing weapon can get the impaling property that lets it target touch AC 3/day.
Also the Blurring or something enhancement let's you make your opponent flatfooted 3/day.

[Rubik]

You could always do a psychic warrior build. Use weapons that aren't wielded with your hands (such as a braid blade and armor spikes) and use a combination of natural attacks and TWF. Alternately, a monk/psywar Tashalatora build will let you use TWF unarmed strikes along with claws and a bite attack from your powers. Go elan so you can nab Rapidstrike, and you can end up with a monk TWF flurry/claw/claw/claw/claw/bite/snap kick routine for fun times, after buffing, of course.

And optimize your equipment, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) of course. You ARE a monk, after all, and they need all the help they can get.

[Immabozo]

Poison Ring itself is a weapon and so is the quickrazor, so no on those.
As an aside, any piercing weapon can get the impaling property that lets it target touch AC 3/day.
Also the Blurring or something enhancement let's you make your opponent flatfooted 3/day.

I thought it was a ring, like for your finger. Do you attack with said ring? or am I misunderstanding?

[Rubik]

I thought it was a ring, like for your finger. Do you attack with said ring? or am I misunderstanding?Yes, it's a finger-ring. It has a needle on it, and you slap it against your target (as a touch attack) to deal 1 point of damage. This is to deliver wound-based poisons, but it works with sneak attack just as well.

[Immabozo]

Yes, it's a finger-ring. It has a needle on it, and you slap it against your target (as a touch attack) to deal 1 point of damage. This is to deliver wound-based poisons, but it works with sneak attack just as well.

that is GLORIOUS!!!!

Also would work with Luhix, an injury administered drug, and the second dose is a DC 25 fort save or die.