Creating a Boneclaw boss!

[Xaroth]

So I was looking through Monster Manual III and I looked at the Boneclaw monster (page 17) and I thought to myself "Huh, this thing's pretty neat..." so one thing led to another and now I'm looking up stuff for undead.

There's a cleric in the party so I need to be able to beat the Cleric's Turn/Rebuke Undead stuff.

Anyone got any ideas? I don't know why, but I can see it being a boss somewhat like Nashandra (http://youtu.be/AHasCn_87qk?t=1h23m38s).

[Rama]

What kinda party do you have? Numbers/levels?

[Xaroth]

What kinda party do you have? Numbers/levels?

Well rather than giving the levels when the party is levelling up constantly due to me throwing XP at them, I'll say I'm going for a CR of 30-35.

However, the party's races and Classes are as follows:
Mindflayer Archivist/Demonwracker/Bard
Minotaur Bard/Mounteback
Fire Giant Cleric
Giant Owl Druid/Ranger
Frost Giant Barbarian
Yuan-Ti Pureblood Ranger/Warblade/Dragon Disciple


I nerfed the higher levelled races so that everything is the same ECL.

[Xaroth]

I think Evolved Undead and Beast of Xvim and MAYBE Spellstitched so far?

[TheMooch]

Disclaimer: At these levels its hard to give good advice without knowing the specific playstyle and detailed builds of your players

Build:
spell stiched is a must take that and pump in as much good options as you can. 1/day buffs or out of combat options like animate dead are nice
beast of xvim is meh i wouldn't use it

I think you should stack on a version of the king of smack on to this so some levels in psychic warrior or psion would be good (if there is a Cha based psionic class that works take that), make sure to do the psycrystal/share pain trick

Now that you have the power covered you need some fun. I would suggest taking Telflammar Shadowlord, shadow dancer(or dark template, HiPS is what you are after) and a few levels in swordsage (then master of nine if you have the feats). make sure to pump hide/move silently sky high

i think that fits the flavor pretty well you have a manifester that is hard to find and hard to kill. I'm sure there is

Encounter:
have the encounter in a dark cave, perferably somewhere the torches go out and magical light is dimmed or dispelled.

the boneclaw is buffed up and read, claws of the vampire, schism, superior invis etc the whole nine yards

Surprise round: shadow pounce in and get a full attack. Hide afterwards
every round after: shadow pounce like crazy then hide in the dark and recover your manuevers then repeat

[Vaz]

Posting images from books is a bit of a nono. They have an Open Gaming License for a reason and can cause the Wizards legal team to get a bit antsy with c+d order triggers.

[chainer1216]

you must make him a spellstitched psychic warrior, and have him say BONECLAW IS READY! after he buffs himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8I43bF840s

[Coidzor]

Well, he needs minions/allies to not get splatted. With that kind of CR to work with starting from a CR 5 though, he should be able to supply his own minions.

He's got a good base Charisma, so building upon that for a spellcaster isn't too bad and I suppose you could make 'im into some sort of Gishy type. Quite nice for gishing, actually, with its +10 Str, +8 Dex, & +8 Cha.

Its charisma will be even better with a better base Charisma than 11 to add its racial adjustment to. Giving it the Elite Array is free if you're giving it PC class levels. Giving it a better than Elite Array ability score generation method/array may count as a CR+1 increase even with the PC classes.

Every 2 Sorcerer(or other spellcaster) levels count as +1 to its CR until it has 10 levels in a spellcasting class, then it's a 1-to-1 ratio of levels to CR. So that's +25 to +30 CR or around 50-60 levels if you fill it up with the right chaining into PrCs in order to take this CR 5 goon & make it into a CR 30-35 threat. Non-associated levels are wonderful, aren't they? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#nonassociatedClassLevels)

So I would say Boneclaw 10/Sorcerer 9/Heartfire Fanner(or PrC Bard or Warrior Skald) 1/Sublime Chord 9/Casting PrC 1 would get you CR 5+10 = CR 15 & 9th level spells. Throw on Ur-Priest 9 & Mystic Theurge 9 for CR 24 & 9th level spells from Sorcerer, Sublime Chord, and Ur-Priest. Find a way to throw Yathrinshee on there & you could have a recursive loop for its caster level when creating its undead servitors.

For something relating to natural weapons... Boneclaw 10/Sorcerer 9/Totemist 2/Soulcaster 9 for CR 5+5, CR 10 for a base with 18 levels of sorcerer casting, 11 levels worth of Totemist essentia and binds, and you could then go with Gish PrCs to fill up or throw on some Wilder(?)/Ardent/Psychic Warrior+Slayer or the like for some psionic enhancements to your gishing.

Standard gish build would probably be something like Boneclaw 10/Hexblade 4/Paladin of Slaughter 2/Sorcerer 4 for BAB 13 upon hitting 20 HD since he can't get 16 BAB or better without losing his undead RHD from Boneclaw. Followed by 2 more levels of Sorcerer for 3rd level spells & then Abjurant Champion for 4 levels, Swiftblade for 9 levels. That gives us 5 + 13 = CR 18 with BAB 13, Cha to Saves twice(ish), Mettle, and 17 levels of Sorcerer casting. After we've filled up we'll probably want to go ahead and take Swiftblade 10 as our last level. At that point since Epic Saves and Epic Attack Bonus takes over, so it's just going after class features & casting progression. Sandshaper 1 gives a bunch of spells known which is always appreciated. Heartfire Fanner adds Bardic Music progression & combined with levels in Virtuoso will give good skills & casting progression while also giving bardic music that will help it and its undead minions in exchange for Requiem. Ur-Priest > Theurging gives a very nice CL to Ur-Priest spells.

You could also do Boneclaw 10/Dread Necromancer 8 or 9/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/other Casting PrCs until you finally decide which one to take to 10th level or you hit your CR cap. Ur-Priest is probably relevant to its interests as well for bringing a way to cast Desecrate in-house.

[Xaroth]

Well, he needs minions/allies to not get splatted. With that kind of CR to work with starting from a CR 5 though, he should be able to supply his own minions.

He's got a good base Charisma, so building upon that for a spellcaster isn't too bad and I suppose you could make 'im into some sort of Gishy type. Quite nice for gishing, actually, with its +10 Str, +8 Dex, & +8 Cha.

How did you determine the ability bonuses? Is there a set method?

[Vaz]

Subtract 10 from even scores, 11 from odds.

[Xaroth]

Subtract 10 from even scores, 11 from odds.

*facepalm* I'm an idiot.

[Xaroth]

In my campaigns I don't really run psionics at all. Part of the Mindflayer's nerf was removing its psionic abilities but letting it keep Telepathy.

[Coidzor]

Oh, right. I just realized that it may be possible to go ahead and take all 10 levels in a PrC without losing the non-associated levels edge by advancing the Boneclaw by 1 HD, since that'd put its HD at 11 & not increase its CR since CR only increases every 4 Undead HD you advance a creature by. Though this is probably even cheaper than laying it on thick as I've already presented.

But, then again, it is supposed to be a boss at Epic Levels, so my conscience is clear.

One strategy that just occurred to me is to take advantage of its superior reach to deliver touch attacks. Though that may be more appropriate to some underling/allies of the boss rather than the main event itself. Which wouldn't be too out of place when combined with making him into a Clericzilla-type with a bunch of mindless & rebuke>controlled undead as backup.


*facepalm* I'm an idiot.

Yep, it's got a pretty decent +4 Int & +4 Wis as well, so something like Divine Crusader + PrCs that grant Domains/expand spell list might combo well with Sorcerer/Sublime Chord casting or you could just use more traditional Wis or Int based casting classes.

[Vaz]

As someone mentioned to me a while ago, you are adding on class levels for a reason. They should always be associated. The CR syatem is borked, no,need to really break it. After all, you can optimize this as much as you like and I'll bring out a CR13 Epic Spellcasting Steel Dragon.

[Xaroth]

Oh, right. I just realized that it may be possible to go ahead and take all 10 levels in a PrC without losing the non-associated levels edge by advancing the Boneclaw by 1 HD, since that'd put its HD at 11 & not increase its CR since CR only increases every 4 Undead HD you advance a creature by. Though this is probably even cheaper than laying it on thick as I've already presented.

But, then again, it is supposed to be a boss at Epic Levels, so my conscience is clear.

One strategy that just occurred to me is to take advantage of its superior reach to deliver touch attacks. Though that may be more appropriate to some underling/allies of the boss rather than the main event itself. Which wouldn't be too out of place when combined with making him into a Clericzilla-type with a bunch of mindless & rebuke>controlled undead as backup.

Yep, it's got a pretty decent +4 Int & +4 Wis as well, so something like Divine Crusader + PrCs that grant Domains/expand spell list might combo well with Sorcerer/Sublime Chord casting or you could just use more traditional Wis or Int based casting classes.

CR 30-35 was only really there because I know people can think better when they have a rough goal. I don't really care what its CR is so long as its less than 80 and greater than 29.

[Coidzor]

Shadow (+1 CR) Boneclaw(CR 5) Clericzilla. Grab Deathbound and Undeath or Planning Domains. Go Cloistered Cleric and maybe trade out Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion. Maybe pick up Hunger or the other of Undeath/Planning through Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment, as I can't remember if Boneclaws have a bite natural weapon or not.

Pick up the standard Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM: Persist Spell feat combo. Maybe Quicken & DMM: Quicken as well.

Undead 10/(Cloistered) Cleric 3/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 1/Bone Knight 10/Epic Bone Knight 10 + Shadow Template = CR 32 If we treat all class levels as associated.

All you're interested in from Bone Knight is the Bonecraft Weapon and Armor for aesthetic purposes, Master of the White Banner for bolstering minions' turn resistance with that sweet, sweet charisma; & the Bone March ability, so those levels could be substituted out for something else. CR 32, has a CL of 25 for animating undead & can get 150 HD of undead through animate dead in one casting & then take over 4 Undead with 20 HD via Bone March so at maximum capacity they're rocking 230 HD of undead, say 10 undead with 20 HD & 1 undead with 30 HD. Rebukes as Cleric 23, so could add some other undead to the roster. Casts as a Cleric 25. Divine Oracle gives some better scrying abilities, the oracle domain, and "evasion" even in heavy armor while Contemplative is just a convenient dip for another domain.

If it wanted to be LE or NE instead of CE it could worship Hextor and get Ordained Champion though that would throw off the domains it could take.

[Xaroth]

Shadow (+1 CR) Boneclaw(CR 5) Clericzilla. Grab Deathbound and Undeath or Planning Domains. Go Cloistered Cleric and maybe trade out Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion. Maybe pick up Hunger or the other of Undeath/Planning through Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment, as I can't remember if Boneclaws have a bite natural weapon or not.

Pick up the standard Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM: Persist Spell feat combo. Maybe Quicken & DMM: Quicken as well.

Undead 10/(Cloistered) Cleric 3/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 1/Bone Knight 10/Epic Bone Knight 10 + Shadow Template = CR 32 If we treat all class levels as associated.

All you're interested in from Bone Knight is the Bonecraft Weapon and Armor for aesthetic purposes, Master of the White Banner for bolstering minions' turn resistance with that sweet, sweet charisma; & the Bone March ability, so those levels could be substituted out for something else. CR 32, has a CL of 25 for animating undead & can get 150 HD of undead through animate dead in one casting & then take over 4 Undead with 20 HD via Bone March so at maximum capacity they're rocking 230 HD of undead, say 10 undead with 20 HD & 1 undead with 30 HD. Rebukes as Cleric 23, so could add some other undead to the roster. Casts as a Cleric 25. Divine Oracle gives some better scrying abilities, the oracle domain, and "evasion" even in heavy armor while Contemplative is just a convenient dip for another domain.

If it wanted to be LE or NE instead of CE it could worship Hextor and get Ordained Champion though that would throw off the domains it could take.

He's beginning to look less like a Boneclaw and more like this guy: http://24.media.tumblr.com/5c8f63828fb5e37f96bfa05d31d23a59/tumblr_n4lhqbkYbf1tzixowo1_500.gif

I love it. But why Epic Bone Knight, and where can I find it?

What does DMM Stand for and how does DMM differ to the original spell? And does casting as a Cleric 25 mean it has access to the 9th level cleric spells or does that merely mean he's treated as 25 for the purpose of X/level effect of spells

A Boneclaw does not have a bite attack, its attacks are 2 Piercing claws. It's a Large undead, and its claws can stretch out to an extra 20ft.

[Coidzor]

He's beginning to look less like a Boneclaw and more like this guy: http://24.media.tumblr.com/5c8f63828fb5e37f96bfa05d31d23a59/tumblr_n4lhqbkYbf1tzixowo1_500.gif

I love it. But why Epic Bone Knight, and where can I find it?

What does DMM Stand for and how does DMM differ to the original spell? And does casting as a Cleric 25 mean it has access to the 9th level cleric spells or does that merely mean he's treated as 25 for the purpose of X/level effect of spells

A Boneclaw does not have a bite attack, its attacks are 2 Piercing claws. It's a Large undead, and its claws can stretch out to an extra 20ft.

Well, you know, it needs some weapons and armor in order to have a big ol' bone scythe and a skirt made out of skeletons. :smallwink:

Epic Bone Knight you'll have to "make" yourself, though mostly I treated it as "progresses Bone Knight features that rely upon Bone Knight Class level & provides casting progression." I suppose you could give it more features and uses per day of its Save or Die attack, but the only thing I was using it for was the Bone March & casting progression which isn't that crucial and the entirety of the levels can be done away with and replaced by something else. Though the Bone Knight's Bone March filled with 10 HD undead isn't going to do much... Though I guess it could fill those slots up with some Necrosis Carnexes for healing of their undead horde.

As a Cleric with Cleric 25 casting it mostly just means that his caster level is 25 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicCleric) and he has the spells per day of a Cleric 20. So he has 9th level spells.

Divine Metamagic(Complete Divine) AKA DMM is a feat you take that lets you sacrifice X uses of Turn/Rebuke Undead instead of making a spell take up a slot X levels higher than normal. You have to take it for each specific metamagic feat you want it to apply to as well, post-errata. So using, say, Nightsticks & Extra Turning & having a high Charisma from the racial ability modifier to get a lot of uses of Turn Undead would all you to use 7 of them(IIRC) to make Divine Power last all day so that your Boneclaw's got Full BAB all day long. IIRC, an Extend would stack with that for 2 days worth of Full BAB, as well as allowing for a rotating series of 48 hour buffs. Other popular spells to persist are Resist Energy & Lesser Vigor. Since the Boneclaw is saddled with 10 Undead HD that give Half BAB, it needs Divine Power even more than most melee cleric types.

Then depending upon exactly how you wanted it to go, a bite may or may not be relevant to your interests. Could be thematically appropriate though.

[WhamBamSam]

Since Epic Bone Knight would require homebrew, and you can afford to lose a few CLs without losing any spell slots (though losing CLs is still a little bad), it might not be a bad idea to try to go Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9 instead (or just RKV 10 with a few Martial Study feats to qualify).

Spellcasting would be more effective, but since I'm getting the sense that you want this guy charging into the fray, he might as well do it right. War Master's Charge+Leading the Charge+Army of Undead/Pet Pit Fiends/whatever is always fun.

[Xaroth]

Well, you know, it needs some weapons and armor in order to have a big ol' bone scythe and a skirt made out of skeletons. :smallwink:

Epic Bone Knight you'll have to "make" yourself, though mostly I treated it as "progresses Bone Knight features that rely upon Bone Knight Class level & provides casting progression." I suppose you could give it more features and uses per day of its Save or Die attack, but the only thing I was using it for was the Bone March & casting progression which isn't that crucial and the entirety of the levels can be done away with and replaced by something else. Though the Bone Knight's Bone March filled with 10 HD undead isn't going to do much... Though I guess it could fill those slots up with some Necrosis Carnexes for healing of their undead horde.

As a Cleric with Cleric 25 casting it mostly just means that his caster level is 25 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicCleric) and he has the spells per day of a Cleric 20. So he has 9th level spells.

Divine Metamagic(Complete Divine) AKA DMM is a feat you take that lets you sacrifice X uses of Turn/Rebuke Undead instead of making a spell take up a slot X levels higher than normal. You have to take it for each specific metamagic feat you want it to apply to as well, post-errata. So using, say, Nightsticks & Extra Turning & having a high Charisma from the racial ability modifier to get a lot of uses of Turn Undead would all you to use 7 of them(IIRC) to make Divine Power last all day so that your Boneclaw's got Full BAB all day long. IIRC, an Extend would stack with that for 2 days worth of Full BAB, as well as allowing for a rotating series of 48 hour buffs. Other popular spells to persist are Resist Energy & Lesser Vigor. Since the Boneclaw is saddled with 10 Undead HD that give Half BAB, it needs Divine Power even more than most melee cleric types.

Then depending upon exactly how you wanted it to go, a bite may or may not be relevant to your interests. Could be thematically appropriate though.

This actually sounds pretty damn awesome. It'll require quite a bit of work, but it's work I'm gonna be more than happy to put in. If you'd like to know the encounter style I had in mind, expand the spoiler.

For the record, I'm thinking of actually making this dungeon an undead-only. So in order to enter it the players need to become undead.

The entrance: "You enter the room through the grand, skeletal doors. Upon stepping in, a sense of evil washes over you. The room is dark, even those with Darkvision can hardly see anything. But in your limited vision, You see that the room is... empty. Silent. Unmoving. Then, just when the situation blurs to you, a feminine voice echoes around the room. "You who walk the path of undeath... you intend to stray from this path, do you not?"
PC: "We didn't intend to become undead in the first place."
"I see... then..."
From the middle of the floor, a 12 foot tall skeletal creature rises in a fog of pure malice, swinging a scythe of bone and wearing skeletons as armor.
"I shall destroy you as you are."
Roll initiatives."


Within range of the scythe: Nashandra casts a spell (undetermined at the moment) that raises a malicious circle that deals damage to those within an X-foot radius of her. (Circle of Death is kinda out of the picture since it'd have no effect on these PCs but I guess spellcraft could come into account with making a spell)
Within range of the scythe post-spell: Nashandra swings her scythe, aiming to trip the opponent she deems to be the largest threat (which she determines by what spells the PCs use and/or which one is largest and/or which one has damaged Nashandra the most). If she succeeds, she attempts to skewer them as her next action. If she fails to skewer with her Scythe (assuming she still has an attack left) she knocks them out of her threatened ares.
Within range of claws but not scythe: Nashandra extends her claws and stabs with them.
Out of range of claws - PCs are together: Nashandra casts a High damage AoE spell with a radius short of her and but large enough to hurt most - if not all - of them.
Out of range of claws - PCs are spread out: Nashandra casts a High damage (or otherwise appropriate) single-target spell on the one that she deems to be the largest threat (which she determines by what spells the PCs use and/or which one is largest and/or which one has damaged Nashandra the most).

[PraxisVetli]

Coidzor, you don't create creatures.
You create ART.

[Coidzor]

One thing to mention, though it seems you've moved away from that direction, which is probably for the best when facing Epic PCs... If you finagled things as the DM and let its Charisma count for Rage/Frenzy(possibly by having it take a homebrew'd up feat that just switches the duration of rages/frenzies from being based on Con to based on Cha), and allowed Frenzied Berserker's Deathless Frenzy to let Nashandra be taken to 0 HP or lower and survive, that'd make for quite the melee beast as well, though it would preclude casting except for buffing before the fight.

All in all, it's probably more something of interest for the heaviest melee minion of a boss or the like...


Since Epic Bone Knight would require homebrew, and you can afford to lose a few CLs without losing any spell slots (though losing CLs is still a little bad), it might not be a bad idea to try to go Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 9 instead (or just RKV 10 with a few Martial Study feats to qualify).

Spellcasting would be more effective, but since I'm getting the sense that you want this guy charging into the fray, he might as well do it right. War Master's Charge+Leading the Charge+Army of Undead/Pet Pit Fiends/whatever is always fun.

True that. I'm kind of embarrassed that I forgot about the Windicator.

Yeah... come to think of it, I sort of wish Warhulk didn't completely gimp the character's ability to take PrCs/feats because Warhulk+minion support would work with the theming here.


Coidzor, you don't create creatures.
You create ART.

Hmm? :smallconfused: Thank you. It's nothing special, though, I just thought over what "Gish" Divine PrCs there are for clericzillas that a CE creature could take and Bone Knight stood up at the fore as already being necromantically themed.

It's easy to make something when you've got around 30 levels to play around with, putting things together and getting the prerequisites and feats all lined up for PrC chaining within 20 levels is the real artform.

There might be some Frank and K homebrew from their Tome of Necromancy (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1059011) which might fit here, come to think of it. Hmm. No, other than the Lord of the Damned it doesn't seem to be the case, and that one draws upon their necromantic creation feats, making it a bit messier to crib. I thought I was thinking of the Boneblade Reaper, but that's one you can't be an Undead and enter.

[Xaroth]

One thing to mention, though it seems you've moved away from that direction, which is probably for the best when facing Epic PCs... If you finagled things as the DM and let its Charisma count for Rage/Frenzy(possibly by having it take a homebrew'd up feat that just switches the duration of rages/frenzies from being based on Con to based on Cha), and allowed Frenzied Berserker's Deathless Frenzy to let Nashandra be taken to 0 HP or lower and survive, that'd make for quite the melee beast as well, though it would preclude casting except for buffing before the fight.

All in all, it's probably more something of interest for the heaviest melee minion of a boss or the like...

Well I COULD give her two minions that are melee based and make them the same race as each other, but a different race from Nashandra.

[PraxisVetli]

Hmm? :smallconfused: Thank you. It's nothing special, though, I just thought over what "Gish" Divine PrCs there are for clericzillas that a CE creature could take and Bone Knight stood up at the fore as already being necromantically themed.

It's easy to make something when you've got around 30 levels to play around with, putting things together and getting the prerequisites and feats all lined up for PrC chaining within 20 levels is the real artform.
True, but for someone that mainly just tempate's up his creatures, seeing you give some cracked out cass eves has dramatically changed how I view creature making. I mean, sometimes I' give something a few leves hear and there, but this is a whole new level for me. I kinda feel bad for my players lel.

Well I COULD give her two minions that are melee based and make them the same race as each other, but a different race from Nashandra.

I don't know about Tanky undead, but the Necrosis Carnex in MMIV might be of use to you. Advanced and touched up, they could prove very useful. Even not upgraded, their Unholy Burst means you could send in mobs of them.

Actually, as for Tanks, dropping a couple of Dracoliches isn't going to far, is it?

[Xaroth]

True, but for someone that mainly just template's up his creatures, seeing you give some cracked out class levels has dramatically changed how I view creature making. I mean, sometimes I'll give something a few levels here and there, but this is a whole new level for me. I kinda feel bad for my players lel.

I think your 'l' key really crapped out on you there :P But yeah, I templated the hell out of my hydra boss. Speaking of which, Coidzor, could I send you my Hydra? I think I've made some miscalculations here and there.


I don't know about Tanky undead, but the Necrosis Carnex in MMIV might be of use to you. Advanced and touched up, they could prove very useful. Even not upgraded, their Unholy Burst means you could send in mobs of them.

Actually, as for Tanks, dropping a couple of Dracoliches isn't going to far, is it?

I'm avoiding Dracoliches because dragons are primarily peaceful in this campaign (save for the BBEG that's literally the epitome of evil) and also because I'm thinking of doing a Dragon graveyard area.

[PraxisVetli]

I think your 'l' key really crapped out on you there :P But yeah, I templated the hell out of my hydra boss. Speaking of which, Coidzor, could I send you my Hydra? I think I've made some miscalculations here and there.



I'm avoiding Dracoliches because dragons are primarily peaceful in this campaign (save for the BBEG that's literally the epitome of evil) and also because I'm thinking of doing a Dragon graveyard area.

Yeah, apparently it did!
I think I'll check my keyboard later.

If you can't dragon, then I just thought of/remembered Necromentals in Libris Mortis. I've faced my players against a twinked out Fire Necromental, maybe that would be helpful? not inheritantly fire, but you know

[Xaroth]

Yeah, apparently it did!
I think I'll check my keyboard later.

If you can't dragon, then I just thought of/remembered Necromentals in Libris Mortis. I've faced my players against a twinked out Fire Necromental, maybe that would be helpful? not inheritantly fire, but you know

Don't have access to Libris Mortis :P

[PraxisVetli]

Am I allowed to say what it gives? I'm never fully sure what OGL does and doesn't let fly.
If I can, I won't get off work till about 9 (its ~4 here), but then I can.
though google might find it

[Xaroth]

Am I allowed to say what it gives? I'm never fully sure what OGL does and doesn't let fly.
If I can, I won't get off work till about 9 (its ~4 here), but then I can.
though google might find it

Pretty sure you can say what it gives, but you can't do what I initially did and post a picture from a page of the book.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Advance it to 22 HD, which only puts it at CR 8 since Undead HD are only worth +1 CR per +4 HD. We'll advance it to 24 HD and make it Huge size for another +1 CR, since that qualifies it for certain feats.

For a CR 30 boss opponent, you need to make it do more stuff. For example, give it more limbs for more attacks. The Arachnoid Creature template in Underdark cannot be applied to undead, and much of what it grants (poison attack, immune to mind-affecting) is of no benefit to an undead base creature, but it adds four additional limbs for four additional claw attacks, a climb speed, +4 Hide, +6 Jump and Spot, +4 Dex, -4 Int, a bite attack for 1d8 large size, and +2 natural armor, for only a +1 CR. Since the purpose of the bite attack is to deliver poison we'll just skip that, as well as the immunity to mind-affecting it grants since that's redundant, in exchange for not applying the -4 Int since this is a boss encounter. So that's four additional arms, +4 Dex, +2 natural armor, a climb speed, and some skill bonuses for +1 CR.

Give it Power Attack, Snatch, and Rend from the Draconomicon. This allows it to deal rend damage every time it hits with two claw attacks. Rend damage is equal to two claws plus 1.5x its Str bonus. I would also give it Improved Snatch and Multisnatch, also in the Draconomicon, so it can grab medium or smaller opponents with its Snatch feat, and it can grapple them with just the limb that it grabbed them with at a -10 instead of taking the normal -20 to do that. Just for fun, let's also give it the feats Rock Throwing and Fling Enemy from Races of Stone.

It should have six levels of Fighter with the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape, and in the interest of making this a fun and interesting encounter let's say he deals the damage of bull rushing an opponent into a solid obstacle when he uses Fling Enemy to throw them into a solid obstacle, but not the floor. He should also have Improved Bull Rush and Knock-Back from Races of Stone, so he can smack opponents so hard they go flying back and smash against the wall. So far we have a huge six-armed opponent that's so strong it rips enemies in half, throws them through the wall, and backhands them across the room, and it's only CR 16.

In the interest of making this thing a viable threat at such a high level, I'll include Divine Crusader. We'll make it a Divine Crusader 1/ Contemplative 1/ Divine Oracle 10, with the Magic, Time, and Oracle domains. It doesn't get any better than 10th level spellcasting, but I want it to have the 10th level ability from Divine Oracle. We'll give it Selective Spell, Sudden Widen Spell, and Permanent Emanation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#permanentEmanation): Selective Sudden Widened Antimagic Field. That gives it a permanent 20-ft. radius Antimagic Field that has he and his own spells and abilities can completely ignore, but anyone else is still affected by it normally even when targeting him with spells and abilities. With Practiced Spellcaster he can have Contingency: Freedom of Movement, and he can use Spell Turning, Time Stop, Foresight, and of course Disjunction. These are all nonassociated class levels, since they don't directly improve his abilities as a bruiser, so this puts him at CR 22.

Give him ten levels of a custom adaptation of War Hulk from the Miniatures Handbook which doesn't include No Time To Think, and keep in mind that he uses Epic BAB and base saves instead of what's printed for a given class after his 20th HD. This gives him +20 Strength, some decent rock/enemy throwing abilities, and every time he makes an attack he swings in a wide arc that hits every opponent in reach. Give him Shock Trooper and say he can use Domino Bull Rush with Fling Enemy, which can be used with Massive Sweeping Boulder to basically throw one opponent to knock down an entire line of other opponents like he's bowling. This puts him at CR 32, and he has 52 HD.

[Xaroth]

Advance it to 22 HD, which only puts it at CR 8 since Undead HD are only worth +1 CR per +4 HD. We'll advance it to 24 HD and make it Huge size for another +1 CR, since that qualifies it for certain feats.

For a CR 30 boss opponent, you need to make it do more stuff. For example, give it more limbs for more attacks. The Arachnoid Creature template in Underdark cannot be applied to undead, and much of what it grants (poison attack, immune to mind-affecting) is of no benefit to an undead base creature, but it adds four additional limbs for four additional claw attacks, a climb speed, +4 Hide, +6 Jump and Spot, +4 Dex, -4 Int, a bite attack for 1d8 large size, and +2 natural armor, for only a +1 CR. Since the purpose of the bite attack is to deliver poison we'll just skip that, as well as the immunity to mind-affecting it grants since that's redundant, in exchange for not applying the -4 Int since this is a boss encounter. So that's four additional arms, +4 Dex, +2 natural armor, a climb speed, and some skill bonuses for +1 CR.

Give it Power Attack, Snatch, and Rend from the Draconomicon. This allows it to deal rend damage every time it hits with two claw attacks. Rend damage is equal to two claws plus 1.5x its Str bonus. I would also give it Improved Snatch and Multisnatch, also in the Draconomicon, so it can grab medium or smaller opponents with its Snatch feat, and it can grapple them with just the limb that it grabbed them with at a -10 instead of taking the normal -20 to do that. Just for fun, let's also give it the feats Rock Throwing and Fling Enemy from Races of Stone.

It should have six levels of Fighter with the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape, and in the interest of making this a fun and interesting encounter let's say he deals the damage of bull rushing an opponent into a solid obstacle when he uses Fling Enemy to throw them into a solid obstacle, but not the floor. He should also have Improved Bull Rush and Knock-Back from Races of Stone, so he can smack opponents so hard they go flying back and smash against the wall. So far we have a huge six-armed opponent that's so strong it rips enemies in half, throws them through the wall, and backhands them across the room, and it's only CR 16.

In the interest of making this thing a viable threat at such a high level, I'll include Divine Crusader. We'll make it a Divine Crusader 1/ Contemplative 1/ Divine Oracle 10, with the Magic, Time, and Oracle domains. It doesn't get any better than 10th level spellcasting, but I want it to have the 10th level ability from Divine Oracle. We'll give it Selective Spell, Sudden Widen Spell, and Permanent Emanation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#permanentEmanation): Selective Sudden Widened Antimagic Field. That gives it a permanent 20-ft. radius Antimagic Field that has he and his own spells and abilities can completely ignore, but anyone else is still affected by it normally even when targeting him with spells and abilities. With Practiced Spellcaster he can have Contingency: Freedom of Movement, and he can use Spell Turning, Time Stop, Foresight, and of course Disjunction. These are all nonassociated class levels, since they don't directly improve his abilities as a bruiser, so this puts him at CR 22.

Give him ten levels of a custom adaptation of War Hulk from the Miniatures Handbook which doesn't include No Time To Think, and keep in mind that he uses Epic BAB and base saves instead of what's printed for a given class after his 20th HD. This gives him +20 Strength, some decent rock/enemy throwing abilities, and every time he makes an attack he swings in a wide arc that hits every opponent in reach. Give him Shock Trooper and say he can use Domino Bull Rush with Fling Enemy, which can be used with Massive Sweeping Boulder to basically throw one opponent to knock down an entire line of other opponents like he's bowling. This puts him at CR 32, and he has 52 HD.

Man, I'm torn between all of the amazing suggestions so far. But what's intriguing me so far is that I didn't know Epic BAB and Base Saves were based off of Hit Die.

Every time I see the Fling Enemy feat, I immediately think of this:
http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx196/MikuMisaka/Anime%20gif/shizuothrow.gif

[Coidzor]

True, but for someone that mainly just template's up his creatures, seeing you give some cracked out class levels has dramatically changed how I view creature making. I mean, sometimes I'll give something a few levels hear and there, but this is a whole new level for me. I kinda feel bad for my players lel.


I don't know about Tanky undead, but the Necrosis Carnex in MMIV might be of use to you. Advanced and touched up, they could prove very useful. Even not upgraded, their Unholy Burst means you could send in mobs of them.

Actually, as for Tanks, dropping a couple of Dracoliches isn't going to far, is it?

If you thought that was neat, check out Urpriest's Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook).

Necrosis Carnexes are always a great addition to any undead horde, especially if they're advanced enough to take a few more hits than normal.

Dracoliches would probably be better off as creatures in their own right because of their nature as casters, but Zombie Dragons, especially Awakened Zombie Dragons, would be great bruisers. And even better ones without the Slow Quality.


I think your 'l' key really crapped out on you there :P But yeah, I templated the hell out of my hydra boss. Speaking of which, Coidzor, could I send you my Hydra? I think I've made some miscalculations here and there.

I'm avoiding Dracoliches because dragons are primarily peaceful in this campaign (save for the BBEG that's literally the epitome of evil) and also because I'm thinking of doing a Dragon graveyard area.

I'm not the best at picking up on math errors, so you'd be better served to post it in its own thread so there's more than one set of eyes looking it over, but if you link me to that thread I'd take a crack at it, certainly.

Ooo, that'll be fun. :smallsmile:


Man, I'm torn between all of the amazing suggestions so far. But what's intriguing me so far is that I didn't know Epic BAB and Base Saves were based off of Hit Die.

Every time I see the Fling Enemy feat, I immediately think of this:
http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx196/MikuMisaka/Anime%20gif/shizuothrow.gif

Sorry about that, should've specified that myself. x.x

Yeah, it's always fun times when you can throw 'em around.

[PraxisVetli]

If you thought that was neat, check out Urpriest's Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook).

Necrosis Carnexes are always a great addition to any undead horde, especially if they're advanced enough to take a few more hits than normal.

Dracoliches would probably be better off as creatures in their own right because of their nature as casters, but Zombie Dragons, especially Awakened Zombie Dragons, would be great bruisers. And even better ones without the Slow Quality.



I'm not the best at picking up on math errors, so you'd be better served to post it in its own thread so there's more than one set of eyes looking it over, but if you link me to that thread I'd take a crack at it, certainly.

Ooo, that'll be fun. :smallsmile:



Sorry about that, should've specified that myself. x.x

Yeah, it's always fun times when you can throw 'em around.

I make every new DM to our table read Urpriest's wonderful guide.
Every.
One.
Throwing them around is great!!!! I love those feat setups. My gf's starting a campaign where most of those size catagories grant feats. So everything above Huge gets the ability to lay out smack. Which frightens and excites me :P

Anyway, Rend is great. It's a cheap easy way to smuggle in some damage. And as a CR30 boss, sometimes raw damage is great. SkeleDragons sounds great, nice Action Economy on those buggers.
Someone has to have mentioned SpellStiched by now, right? Also, Evolved Undead.


But, as promised, though slightly late, Necromental grants......
HD: d12's of course
+2 NA
retains all special attacks, that's nice. half the time you lose those.
and Gains:
Create Spawn: Any elemental slain by a necromentals Energy Drain rises 1d4 days after death.
Energy Drain: 1/round, negative level, yadda yadda. DC is normal 10+1/2 HD. gains 5 hp/ drain
has Fast Healing 3 as long as its withing 5' of its element
Abilities: Int and Cha become 1, Wisdom becomes 10
Gains Great Fortitude (yayy....)
Always NE and +1 CR


It's not that great, but eh. on a Earth Monolith (Complete Arcane), it could pose a good beefstick. Two of them, evolved a few times, you'd be good.

[Xaroth]

If you thought that was neat, check out Urpriest's Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook).

Necrosis Carnexes are always a great addition to any undead horde, especially if they're advanced enough to take a few more hits than normal.

Dracoliches would probably be better off as creatures in their own right because of their nature as casters, but Zombie Dragons, especially Awakened Zombie Dragons, would be great bruisers. And even better ones without the Slow Quality.

Sorry, when I see Dracolich I immediately think of a Skeletal dragon rather than a Dragon Lich. I'll be sure to look into Dracoliches.


I'm not the best at picking up on math errors, so you'd be better served to post it in its own thread so there's more than one set of eyes looking it over, but if you link me to that thread I'd take a crack at it, certainly.

Ooo, that'll be fun. :smallsmile:

HAIL HYDRA (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351968-Creating-a-Hydra-Boss!).

Hopefully, I'm trying to hint to the PCs to become undead (there's a character that'll do True Resurrection on them afterwards, and they should figure that out already) so that they can enter an area I've labelled "The Dark". Depending on what level they are when they finally decide to do it, they'll either face this boss or they'll face a series of bosses that I've labelled the Sinister 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?353211-Creating-a-Sinister-7!) (CR ~50 and escalating gauntlet style battle) which should be just as interesting. Once again I'm requesting assistance for it because my forté isn't optimization, it's dungeoneering.


Sorry about that, should've specified that myself. x.x

Yeah, it's always fun times when you can throw 'em around.

S'all good, and yeah, flinging the Royal Guard through the Royal Windows can be fun. Better yet, fling the King himself.

[Xaroth]

Oh dear lord I don't know which of these builds are best-suited to what I'm wanting. So far I think Coidzor's Bone Knight with Cleric Caster level 25 is most accurate to Nashandra, but I'm really not sure.

[PraxisVetli]

Sorry, when I see Dracolich I immediately think of a Skeletal dragon rather than a Dragon Lich. I'll be sure to look into Dracoliches.



HAIL HYDRA (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351968-Creating-a-Hydra-Boss!).

Hopefully, I'm trying to hint to the PCs to become undead (there's a character that'll do True Resurrection on them afterwards, and they should figure that out already) so that they can enter an area I've labelled "The Dark". Depending on what level they are when they finally decide to do it, they'll either face this boss or they'll face a series of bosses that I've labelled the Sinister 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?353211-Creating-a-Sinister-7!) (CR ~50 and escalating gauntlet style battle) which should be just as interesting. Once again I'm requesting assistance for it because my forté isn't optimization, it's dungeoneering.



S'all good, and yeah, flinging the Royal Guard through the Royal Windows can be fun. Better yet, fling the King himself.

I'm so down to help for that.

[Xaroth]

I'm so down to help for that.

Well, you're more than welcome to help. I'm gonna be tackling the bosses one at a time, starting with a CR ~50 Concordant Killer (Monster Manual IV pg. 34).

[Coidzor]

Oh dear lord I don't know which of these builds are best-suited to what I'm wanting. So far I think Coidzor's Bone Knight with Cleric Caster level 25 is most accurate to Nashandra, but I'm really not sure.

Well, full access to the Cleric List would allow for more spells to replicate certain effects, though we'd want to touch upon the specific sorts of effects you want and how to model them in the rules first. The other build is more pure melee monster though. And, as was pointed out in the Hydra thread, you can just give your bosses minions without necessarily giving them an explicit mechanic for them.

As far as making the PCs into the undead, I suppose you could always have someone peddling rituals of Crucimigration to make Necropolitans(essentially they lose a level after being crucified on metal crosses as part of a ritual and then gain a template that mostly just makes them undead) with additional extras they could buy like being made by a Dread Necromancer of X level & Desecration/Altar effects. Though there's also Grave-touched ghouls and ghosts as options. Someone may have some ideas to make Ghostwalk's rules workable as well, or they could just be a temporary thing and forgotten about after the dungeon.

You could also include the Savage Progression of Ghost so that they can decide how many levels they're going to temporarily convert into Ghost and/or how much of a hit they'll take to the XP they gain in the dungeon, I suppose.

[Xaroth]

Shadow (+1 CR) Boneclaw(CR 5) Clericzilla. Grab Deathbound and Undeath or Planning Domains. Go Cloistered Cleric and maybe trade out Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion. Maybe pick up Hunger or the other of Undeath/Planning through Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment, as I can't remember if Boneclaws have a bite natural weapon or not.

Pick up the standard Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM: Persist Spell feat combo. Maybe Quicken & DMM: Quicken as well.

Undead 10/(Cloistered) Cleric 3/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 1/Bone Knight 10/Epic Bone Knight 10 + Shadow Template = CR 32 If we treat all class levels as associated.

All you're interested in from Bone Knight is the Bonecraft Weapon and Armor for aesthetic purposes, Master of the White Banner for bolstering minions' turn resistance with that sweet, sweet charisma; & the Bone March ability, so those levels could be substituted out for something else. CR 32, has a CL of 25 for animating undead & can get 150 HD of undead through animate dead in one casting & then take over 4 Undead with 20 HD via Bone March so at maximum capacity they're rocking 230 HD of undead, say 10 undead with 20 HD & 1 undead with 30 HD. Rebukes as Cleric 23, so could add some other undead to the roster. Casts as a Cleric 25. Divine Oracle gives some better scrying abilities, the oracle domain, and "evasion" even in heavy armor while Contemplative is just a convenient dip for another domain.

If it wanted to be LE or NE instead of CE it could worship Hextor and get Ordained Champion though that would throw off the domains it could take.

I've decided to go with this build, but there's still quite a lot of things I'm unclear on. For bosses I take max HP for all hit die purely for the increased challenge factor, but for the Shadow Template do I count in HD from class or is it just Racial Hit Die?

[PraxisVetli]

I've decided to go with this build, but there's still quite a lot of things I'm unclear on. For bosses I take max HP for all hit die purely for the increased challenge factor, but for the Shadow Template do I count in HD from class or is it just Racial Hit Die?

generally just Racial.
Question comes up a lot with Feral Template too.

[Xaroth]

generally just Racial.
Question comes up a lot with Feral Template too.

Hm... alright.

Man I'm really not in the right frame of mind to make bosses right now.

[Coidzor]

I've decided to go with this build, but there's still quite a lot of things I'm unclear on. For bosses I take max HP for all hit die purely for the increased challenge factor, but for the Shadow Template do I count in HD from class or is it just Racial Hit Die?

Which is, I suppose, another argument in favor of upping the RHD. XD

Shadow's only really important if you want to give it the ability to hide really good though. The speed increase can be nice though.