Need help with a build please!

[lvl20psionftw]

Hey guys, my DM is running a lvl 20 campaign and i need a good Psion build. We'll be going up against 6 Great Wyrm Gold Dragons and 6 lvl 16-20 Clerics. I need mid-optimization, no cheese, and some good ideas. Thanks in advance! :smallsmile:

[PotatoNinja]

DM here, i can approve all builds suggested on this thread. I'm generally ok with powerfull builds, but cheese such as the Auto-Save game psion and infinite PP are out. To further help the forum build a capable psion i will give some background info on the encounters;

Each gold dragon is most likely going to be paired with a cleric. Separating them will be possible, but will need to be heavily planned and roleplayed out to make possible. The party will have a Cleric, a Wizard, and a Psion, and MAYBE and NPC helper who will most likely be a level 12 crusader from the TOB who also happens go be a troll.

The party has not done any preliminary research on the targets, so they don't know the full extent of power for their foes or what their foes will specialize in. There is also an epic level Cleric who rules over the other 6 who must be dealt with as well. What little i can say about the NPC's to help the group build a psion is thus;

Galeen – High Cleric of Abertin. Worshippper of the good gods. Runs a tyrannical Theocratic city state and is very oppressive towards anybody who he deems an enemy of the state. He has six people he considers disciples

Mozren – Female - is the Head magistrate
Tiflar - Male - Captain of the Gaurds
Sandran - Male - Scret Police chief
Carl - Out preaching the country side, north
Vinnie - out preaching the country side south
Debora Aglin – Director of commerce and trade


All splat boots are open, ECL 20.
No Dragon Mags.
No Homebrew.


Thanks in advance playground :D

[Soranar]

Ok, try this

Race: Warforged
Template: dragonborn of bahamut (mind, for blindsense at 30 ft. Flight is easy to acquire for a psion)

reasons: immunities + blindsense are both very relevant in high level encounters

since a psion has limited resources (AKA powers known) you have to closely consider how you're going to supplement your failings with magic items and feats.

feats I'd recommend

-improved fortification (can be taken despite not having an armor anymore according to DnD FAQ) which provides immunity to crits
-psiforged body (extra PP are always nice)

magic items I'd recommend

-carpet of flying (flight)
-cortical armor (body slot, provides mind blank)
-banner of the storm's eyes (immunity to stunning/fear, can be held or worn but you don't really use a weapon anyway so I'd hold it)
-Hathran Mask of True Seeing (face slot, true seeing 24/7)
-ring of freedom of movement
-belt of battle (ini improvement, extra actions)
-boots of swift passage (cheap teleportation effect)

powers known (must haves)

damage power that ignores everything (crystal shard)
summon power that summons anything (astral construct)
action economy (schism, temporal acceleration, hustle)
a dispel magic power
fly
metamorphosis or metaphormic transfer, forget the exact name
a save or suck power of your choice

With all of this you still have several empty magic item slots which you can fill with whatever you want. Being a dragonborn warforged, you get a +4 to CON which should help keep you alive a bit. Normally I'd recommend a venerable necropolitan elan but you'll be facing an epic cleric and he could just turn you so that doesn't sound so good.

where to go from here

There are several options as to what kind of specialization to take as a psion, personally I find an erudite to be much stronger due to his larger power knowns. Expanded knowledge is your friend, it'll get you the best each specialty has to offer so keep that in mind. also read up on how to use a psycristal to it's maximum power, check with your DM if it gets feats or not (up to interpretation), many people turn them into juggernauts through metamorphosis and use them as a pet fighter (much like a druid with his animal companion)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Would a cohort via Leadership, Thrallherd, or similar be built by the player or by the DM?

If Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm) is extended, manifest during Temporal Acceleration, or similar, is the character still able to act normally under its effect?

How many characters are in the party and what are they planning to make?

[PotatoNinja]

Would a cohort via Leadership, Thrallherd, or similar be built by the player or by the DM?

If Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm) is extended, manifest during Temporal Acceleration, or similar, is the character still able to act normally under its effect?

How many characters are in the party and what are they planning to make?

Leadership is right out. Way to much room for abuse that i don't feel like dealing with.

Psionic powers - i dont know, you would have to explain to me what this allows the players to do for me to make a call on weather or not it is too cheesy. I am inclined to say it doesnt look too bad, but i may be wrong, invulnerable for multiple apparent rounds while you cast other powers? i can think of worse offenders (time stop)

There will be a Mid Op Cleric with persist spells and tons of metamagic abuse with nightsticks. No clue on if he'll melee primarily or cast spells (i allow irriative attacks to all be made at full BAB, so he may decide to just full out attack with full BAB up and zen archery)

There will also be a God Wizard who will focus on buffing and debuffing primarily who is a wizard/masterspecialis/fatespinner/wizard of high sorcery/archmage/. This player is newer to mages and may not be able to 100% juggle all the metamagic and her capabilities to their fullest but i will be coaching her on her abilities prior to the game.

And NPC of some sort to fill the fourth gAP, probably a troll crusader with 12 levels in crusader. Just to fill in as a tanky damage absorbing type.


The gold dragons will be slightly oped out with feats for casting and fly by attacks, but wont be touched to much from their original content because they are already CR 27 each.

[PotatoNinja]

Ok, try this

Race: Warforged
Template: dragonborn of bahamut (mind, for blindsense at 30 ft. Flight is easy to acquire for a psion)

reasons: immunities + blindsense are both very relevant in high level encounters

since a psion has limited resources (AKA powers known) you have to closely consider how you're going to supplement your failings with magic items and feats.

feats I'd recommend

-improved fortification (can be taken despite not having an armor anymore according to DnD FAQ) which provides immunity to crits
-psiforged body (extra PP are always nice)

magic items I'd recommend

-carpet of flying (flight)
-cortical armor (body slot, provides mind blank)
-banner of the storm's eyes (immunity to stunning/fear, can be held or worn but you don't really use a weapon anyway so I'd hold it)
-Hathran Mask of True Seeing (face slot, true seeing 24/7)
-ring of freedom of movement
-belt of battle (ini improvement, extra actions)
-boots of swift passage (cheap teleportation effect)

powers known (must haves)

damage power that ignores everything (crystal shard)
summon power that summons anything (astral construct)
action economy (schism, temporal acceleration, hustle)
a dispel magic power
fly
metamorphosis or metaphormic transfer, forget the exact name
a save or suck power of your choice

With all of this you still have several empty magic item slots which you can fill with whatever you want. Being a dragonborn warforged, you get a +4 to CON which should help keep you alive a bit. Normally I'd recommend a venerable necropolitan elan but you'll be facing an epic cleric and he could just turn you so that doesn't sound so good.

where to go from here

There are several options as to what kind of specialization to take as a psion, personally I find an erudite to be much stronger due to his larger power knowns. Expanded knowledge is your friend, it'll get you the best each specialty has to offer so keep that in mind. also read up on how to use a psycristal to it's maximum power, check with your DM if it gets feats or not (up to interpretation), many people turn them into juggernauts through metamorphosis and use them as a pet fighter (much like a druid with his animal companion)


Whats the LA on the dragonborn?

EDIT 0? Really? You get to much good stuff for a zero LA. gonna rule that one out or put it at a higher level adjustment. What would the playground suggest as a LA for this combo? Nutters.

[Sir Chuckles]

Whats the LA on the dragonborn?

It is +0. filler

[Xerlith]

EDIT 0? Really? You get to much good stuff for a zero LA. gonna rule that one out or put it at a higher level adjustment. What would the playground suggest as a LA for this combo? Nutters.

0. The abilities can be easily replicated by a level 3 wizard.

[eggynack]

EDIT 0? Really? You get to much good stuff for a zero LA. gonna rule that one out or put it at a higher level adjustment. What would the playground suggest as a LA for this combo? Nutters.
It's quite good, but it's nothing game changing, and the fact that it strips the base race of a lot of abilities is somewhat problematic, and means that you're somewhat limited in how you apply it. It really should be a +0 as a result. I mean, if we're being serious here, you're trying to negotiate away a couple of minor abilities on a class that can potentially tear a campaign in half, if such is their desire. It just feels like small potatoes.

[PotatoNinja]

It's quite good, but it's nothing game changing, and the fact that it strips the base race of a lot of abilities is somewhat problematic, and means that you're somewhat limited in how you apply it. It really should be a +0 as a result. I mean, if we're being serious here, you're trying to negotiate away a couple of minor abilities on a class that can potentially tear a campaign in half, if such is their desire. It just feels like small potatoes.

I see what you mean and i think you are right. Fair enough!

Back on track, any builds and suggested powers/diciplines and feats? Or were they all covered already amd is this thread considered fufilled? :)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Leadership is right out. Way to much room for abuse that i don't feel like dealing with.

Psionic powers - i dont know, you would have to explain to me what this allows the players to do for me to make a call on weather or not it is too cheesy. I am inclined to say it doesnt look too bad, but i may be wrong, invulnerable for multiple apparent rounds while you cast other powers? i can think of worse offenders (time stop)

There will be a Mid Op Cleric with persist spells and tons of metamagic abuse with nightsticks. No clue on if he'll melee primarily or cast spells (i allow irriative attacks to all be made at full BAB, so he may decide to just full out attack with full BAB up and zen archery)

There will also be a God Wizard who will focus on buffing and debuffing primarily who is a wizard/masterspecialis/fatespinner/wizard of high sorcery/archmage/. This player is newer to mages and may not be able to 100% juggle all the metamagic and her capabilities to their fullest but i will be coaching her on her abilities prior to the game.

And NPC of some sort to fill the fourth gAP, probably a troll crusader with 12 levels in crusader. Just to fill in as a tanky damage absorbing type.


The gold dragons will be slightly oped out with feats for casting and fly by attacks, but wont be touched to much from their original content because they are already CR 27 each.

Leadership is out, but Thrallherd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm) gets followers as class features, in exchange for manifester levels. It costs a lot more than a feat, would that be available and if so would the player (or the community) be able to design their thrall(s)?

Let's say the character uses a swift action to use Temporal Acceleration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm), gaining one round of apparent time. In that round he uses the standard action to manifest an Extended Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm), and a move action to regain his psionic focus using Psionic Meditation. That Timeless Body lasts for two actual rounds. When the Temporal Acceleration ends, he returns to his normal round, which he's only spent a swift action from. He has a standard action and a move action, or a full round action, yet to use on the current round, then everyone else will act. He'll act on his next turn, everyone else will act again, and then as soon as his following turn begins Timeless Body will end. This gives him two full rounds to act, and two full rounds for everyone else to act, during the duration of Timeless Body. The question is, does the immunity granted by Timeless Body affect his own natural movement modes, his own ability to manifest powers that don't target himself, etc. or would it render him immobile and unable to act during its duration? I've seen DMs rule the latter since it's such a strong power, but IMO that goes beyond what the power actually does.
Just to note, you can use Overchannel and Metapower to add Persistent Power (3.0 XPH but still valid for 3.5 by RAW, also found here: wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf) to Timeless Body at 20th level so it lasts 24 hours. This is almost certainly too cheesy for your game, though.
Also, are you using magic/psionics transparency so the dragons' SR works vs psionic powers, so dispel magic works on psionics and dispel psionics works on magic, and so antimagic field works against psionics and null psionics field works against magic, or are you not using that optional rule?

If the Cleric is stacking Night Sticks with DMM: Persist and archery, he should get a stack of +1 Spell Storing Arrows with (Lesser Rod of) Maximized Shivering Touch in them. That deals 18 Dex damage to anything it hits with no saving throw, as long as the target doesn't have the cold subtype. Shivering Touch is in Frostburn, it's the dragon killer. The Spell Storing weapon property isn't on the ranged weapon table, indicating it cannot be discovered as random loot on ranged weapons, but there's nothing in its description prohibiting it from being put on a ranged weapon via normal item creation methods.

Switch that Troll Crusader to a War Troll (MM3) Crusader 2, they're more inclined to work as mercenaries and fire doesn't go through their regeneration, considering they're up against fire-breathing dragons.

[m149307]

I would say to go Elan and not Warforged. Elan can basically (with enough PP) negate all damage done to them. And since Psions should have a ton of PP, they will also be able to use powers while not taking much damage.

[PotatoNinja]

Leadership is out, but Thrallherd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm) gets followers as class features, in exchange for manifester levels. It costs a lot more than a feat, would that be available and if so would the player (or the community) be able to design their thrall(s)?

Let's say the character uses a swift action to use Temporal Acceleration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm), gaining one round of apparent time. In that round he uses the standard action to manifest an Extended Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm), and a move action to regain his psionic focus using Psionic Meditation. That Timeless Body lasts for two actual rounds. When the Temporal Acceleration ends, he returns to his normal round, which he's only spent a swift action from. He has a standard action and a move action, or a full round action, yet to use on the current round, then everyone else will act. He'll act on his next turn, everyone else will act again, and then as soon as his following turn begins Timeless Body will end. This gives him two full rounds to act, and two full rounds for everyone else to act, during the duration of Timeless Body. The question is, does the immunity granted by Timeless Body affect his own natural movement modes, his own ability to manifest powers that don't target himself, etc. or would it render him immobile and unable to act during its duration? I've seen DMs rule the latter since it's such a strong power, but IMO that goes beyond what the power actually does.
Just to note, you can use Overchannel and Metapower to add Persistent Power (3.0 XPH but still valid for 3.5 by RAW, also found here: wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf) to Timeless Body at 20th level so it lasts 24 hours. This is almost certainly too cheesy for your game, though.
Also, are you using magic/psionics transparency so the dragons' SR works vs psionic powers, so dispel magic works on psionics and dispel psionics works on magic, and so antimagic field works against psionics and null psionics field works against magic, or are you not using that optional rule?

If the Cleric is stacking Night Sticks with DMM: Persist and archery, he should get a stack of +1 Spell Storing Arrows with (Lesser Rod of) Maximized Shivering Touch in them. That deals 18 Dex damage to anything it hits with no saving throw, as long as the target doesn't have the cold subtype. Shivering Touch is in Frostburn, it's the dragon killer. The Spell Storing weapon property isn't on the ranged weapon table, indicating it cannot be discovered as random loot on ranged weapons, but there's nothing in its description prohibiting it from being put on a ranged weapon via normal item creation methods.

Switch that Troll Crusader to a War Troll (MM3) Crusader 2, they're more inclined to work as mercenaries and fire doesn't go through their regeneration, considering they're up against fire-breathing dragons.

SHivering Touch is one of the very very few things i ban as a DM, too powerfull and completely borked in the parties favor. I feel as if it removed to much of the challenge of dealing with Dragons.

I do use transparency just to keep things simple between magic and psionics.

My trolls are asgardian trolls, and are only damaged by lightening damage. Home ruled troll, acts just like a normal one, just replace damage vulnerabilities.

Thralls are out, simply because it's too much book keeping and breaks the action economy just a little to much for the encounters as planned. it's still just a little to close to leadership for me to feel comfortable with.

God, im sorry guys, i feel like a bad DM now, saying no to all of this stuff, generally i'm ok with most stuff x_x;

As for the psionic power combo, I will err on the side of caution and say that the two work as you intend, where the psion can not act during this combination. I'm going to be a little more conservative than normal i think because it's been a while since i've played with a high level group. (I'm much more accustomed to low to mid level, mid to high op. High level high op still scares me quite a bit as a DM)


Thank you for the invaluable input and help, and clarification on that psionic trick!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are certain things that the Psion should definitely use:

Take Psicrystal Affinity to get a Psicrystal. Keep the power Share Pain constantly active on it, so the Psion takes half damage from all sources. The Psicrystal's Hardness 8 reduces every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain by that much, regardless of the original attack's type. He can put the Psicrystal in a compartment on his person so opponents will never have line of sight or line of effect to it, they cannot attack it directly and it cannot be affected by area effects of any kind. He can share beneficial powers he manifests with it, such as Vigor and Psionic Repair Damage. The Psicrystal can use magic items, so he should give it a Healing Belt which it can use to heal him or itself when needed. Note that energy resistance such as from Energy Adaptation will be of no benefit against damage the Psicrystal takes from Share Pain, as it's untyped. Energy resistance on the Psion will still reduce incoming damage, but it's his choice whether to reduce the damage before it's split with the Psicrystal or afterward. For example, Energy Adaptation, Specified gives him Fire Resistance 30, a great wyrm gold dragon uses maximize breath to hit him for 240 fire damage. He can choose to reduce it to 210 damage before he splits it with the psicrystal, him taking 105 and the psicrystal taking 97 due to hardness, or he can choose to reduce it after he splits it with the psicrystal, him taking 90 after resistance and the psicrystal taking 112 after hardness. This is an extreme example and I'm sure the Cleric and/or Wizard will be kind enough to make sure Energy Immunity from SC is cast on each of the characters prior to the battle, but it's a good example of how effects that reduce damage interact with Share Pain.

After reading the above, he should definitely be a Warforged so he can benefit from Psionic Repair Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRepairDamage.htm), which is significantly more efficient than Body Adjustment. It restores 3d8+20 hp for only three power points, and can be augmented to 13d8+20 (average 78.5) with Overchannel. Body Adjustment restores 1d12 hp for five power points, and can be augmented to 10d12 (average 65) with Overchannel. Either of those can be shared with his Psicrystal every time he uses them.

He should definitely learn Schism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm) and use it to manifest additional powers every round. It can manifest Psionic Repair Damage to restore 3d8+16 hp for 3 pp, it can manifest an augmented Vigor to give him and his psicrystal each 70 temporary hp for 14 pp, it can manifest Psionic Freedom of Movement to get him out of a bind, it can use Energy Missile to destroy opponents' gear, spell components, divine focus, etc.

He should have Control Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm) and Solicit Psicrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/solicitPsicrystal.htm). He can use Control Body targeting himself, then Solicit Psicrystal to have his psicrystal take over concentrating on the power and using its own actions to control his physical actions. He can spend his own actions to take purely mental actions, such as manifesting powers and regaining his psionic focus via Psionic Meditation. The Psicrystal can have him move, attack, draw/sheathe weapons, wands, and other held items, take full defense actions, etc. You would still use your own intelligence bonus for your body's attack, damage, and AC as standard for the power, since you're the one who manifest it.

Since Persistent Spell is being used, he should have Persistent Power (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf), it's from the 3.0 Psionics Handbook but RAW any 3.0 feats, spells, classes, items, etc. are still valid for use in 3.5, though if it was reprinted then the most recent copy is the one that must be used. Persistent Power has not changed since its original printing. He can spend a feat on Metapower in CP to reduce the cost of using that by two for one specific power each time he takes it. Combined with Overchannel, he can use Persistent Power on 9th level powers, though the only ones that may be worth using it on are Greater Metamorphosis and the already-nerfed Timeless Body. He should definitely use Persistent Power with Schism at the very least.

He'll end up spending a considerable portion of his daily powerpoints augmenting his (persistent) buffs. Combined with spending extra powerpoints every round via Schism, he'll want to go into the fight with his full powerpoint pool available to him. That means either using all his buffs prior to resting the previous day, or using a recharge method such as Midnight Augmentation + Bestow Power. His Schism can actually use Bestow Power on him to recharge his powerpoints during combat. With Midnight Augmentation, Bestow Power will cost 3 powerpoints to grant 2 powerpoints, and for every 1 additional powerpoint he spends to augment it, it will grant an additional 2 powerpoints. So spending 5 powerpoints on it will grant himself 6 powerpoints, or spending 12 powerpoints on it will grant himself 20 powerpoints. That's only +8 powerpoints per round, but if the fight goes long enough for everyone to be low on spells and daily abilities, it will be enough to keep him going indefinitely.

With magic/psionics transparency in effect, there should be a psionic version of Runestaffs available, they're found in MIC on page 224. Using the Ancestral Relic Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick is the absolute best method, especially if he can gain free wealth such as Stone to Flesh and then Flesh to Salt to make mundane stone worth 5 gp per pound, then sacrifice that to upgrade his relic from a mundane Masterwork x3, Wand Chamber x3, Elvencraft Composite Longbow to a magic item whose magical properties are worth up to 380,000 gp, and he only has to pay for the mundane item itself. This will allow him to get every persistable and hour/level power that exists at 1/day each, and he should still have a significant portion of that value to spend on things like +1 Defending on all three, making it a magical staff with charges of spells/powers (Reality Revision), etc. Since he can add staff charges to it for free via the above salt trick, he can add a +5 Inherent bonus to the ability scores of everyone in the party, wish them max HP per HD, create additional magic items beyond the standard WBL, etc. Note that you don't pay the XP cost of a spell or power on a magical staff when using it, and you don't pay any XP costs of the properties you add to your Ancestral Relic.

[Bellberith]

Hey guys, my DM is running a lvl 20 campaign and i need a good Psion build. We'll be going up against 6 Great Wyrm Gold Dragons and 6 lvl 16-20 Clerics. I need mid-optimization, no cheese, and some good ideas. Thanks in advance! :smallsmile:

At level 20 what i would do is go Gish, if you were an ardent you could get the dominant ideal and substitute power variants. Basically create your own mantles and put the powers you want in there (this is subject to DM approval). Be sure to grab your handy-dandy psicrystal with the psicrystal affinity feat. Also get Containment so it can focus for you and use it as essentially a second psionic focus.

From there with dominant ideal you can manifest a maximized empowered dissolving weapon into power storing on your weapons (id suggest 2 weapons because it drastically increases damage output using this method). This is permanent, do it at the end of every day before you rest your points back up. Also cast another empowered maximized dissolving weapon on the weapon itself (it has no time limit on the ability, next things you hit get hit hard) by level 20 if you hit with both weapons (and have deep impact so this shouldnt be a problem) you will deal 36 damage per power storing manifest. and 135 damage per dissolving weapon manifest on the weapon itself. that is a total of 342 damage with those 2 attacks not counting your base damage.

before the battle if you had manifested schism and inconstant location you should be able to appear right next to them, full attack, and dimension slide away before they can even attack you.

note with all this if you were an Elan you can negate a big counter-attack coming your way.

This is not the most optimized way to fight, however in my opinion it is the most badass. and if you are in any real danger then teleport into space and adapt body. rest up your points and try again in a few hours.

[Ellowryn]

I would say to go Elan and not Warforged. Elan can basically (with enough PP) negate all damage done to them. And since Psions should have a ton of PP, they will also be able to use powers while not taking much damage.

About this, how does the Elan Resilience ability work with the aforementioned Share Pain power? Is it reduce damage and then half or half and then reduce damage? Because if its the latter then that will give you a very hard to kill psion over a warforged. Granted not dying is not always the same as winning, being able to survive burst is very important.

[Captnq]

Go to my Sig.
Get the EVD.
Go To the folder: Psionomicon

Especially read the files:
ASTRAL CONSTRUCTS v1.01.doc
METAPSIONIC FEATS v1.03.doc
PSICRYSTALS v1.01.doc
PSION v1.01.doc
PSIONIC FEATS v1.01.doc
PSIONIC POWERS v1.02.doc

Oh, and maybe
PSIONIC RULES v1.01.doc

PM after you read all that, if you haven't gotten a bazillion ideas already, that is.

[m149307]

About this, how does the Elan Resilience ability work with the aforementioned Share Pain power? Is it reduce damage and then half or half and then reduce damage? Because if its the latter then that will give you a very hard to kill psion over a warforged. Granted not dying is not always the same as winning, being able to survive burst is very important.
I think it is the former, not sure.