Gestalt and Mystic Theurge

[With a box]

Wizard 12 // Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge 9
Is that bring wizard CL 21 to me, at 12th level?

Edit : obviously no sane DM would allow it...

[Aegis013]

By RAW dual progression PrCs can't be used in Gestalt. As such, they don't have a clearly laid out interaction. Ask your DM.

If this is a theoretical question and not one which you can ask a DM, I would assume that since you get the better progression of a class feature from either side, you would still be a Wizard 12 and half of the progress from MT would simply be wasted.

[animewatcha]

Technically, unearthed arcana says that it 'should be' rather than actually is. It's one of those 'ask your DM' things.

[Rebel7284]

The only sane interpretation is that it doesn't stack.



Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

[animewatcha]

Unfortunately, there is 'wacky sharing'. Not direct, but also 'What were you thinking WOTC.' This is along the same lines of uncanny trickster and legacy champion. Except this time, you have a wizard 12 // cleric 3 / Theurge 9 with the spellcasting ability ( not so much epic spells, etc. ) of 21 level wizard and 12 level cleric. Heck, why be cleric, do druid/wizard with MT and Arcane hielophant.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It doesn't work like that. Even if both sides of a gestalt increase arcane caster level you only get one. That dual-progression classes are usually not allowed in gestalt was already mentioned.

[Tantum Umbra]

It doesn't work.

You get +1 spellcasting to wizard on both sides so you only receive one.

Otherwise

Fighter 12 / warblade 12

= +24 BaB

By your interpretation.

[sideswipe]

And on top of all of that, YOU CANNOT TAKE DUAL PROGRESSION CLASSES ON A GESTALT BUILD!

another thing my DM adds is no dual progression feats.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, if you are playing gestalt, Mystic Theurge simply does not exist. Instead play a Wizard//Cleric and be done with it.

[Talothorn]

And on top of all of that, YOU CANNOT TAKE DUAL PROGRESSION CLASSES ON A GESTALT BUILD!

This is already exactly what was said. Unnecessary shouting is unnecessary.

RAW has already been covered, so i will dip into houserule. In my games, theurge classes and feats cannot advance a class feature beyond character level. This mainly helps the character who takes a multi class (like rogue and ranger) on one side of their build.

Allowing MT to boost spellcasting above character level leads to broken abilities like 9th level spells at 10th level and the like. For the preservation of fun, I strongly recommend against it.

[A.A.King]

The Real Problem with this build is ofcourse the fact that you chose "Cleric" instead of "Archivist with Academic Priest" making this build waaaaaaaaay too MAD.

Personally I would say that if we are imagining the idea that Mystig Theurge is allowed in gestalt, then on a technical reading you would have a Wizard with CL21. Mystic Theurge simply says "1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" and there already exists a precedent of having more levels in a casting class then your actual HD (Kobold Sorcerer Web Enhancement).

[Rebel7284]

There is a way to cast 9th level spells at level 10 with minimal cheese.

Cleric (with the correct domains) 7/Shadowcraft Mage 3

DMM Heighten or the Illumian DMM ability.

[SinsI]

I'd allow Theurge type classes with Gestalt only if both prerequisites for them are taken from the same side.
I.e. something like Cleric 3/ Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 // Rogue 16

[RedMage125]

I'd say, even IF your DM was inclined to allow it that you shouldn't. Because Mystic Theurge has zero class features. A Wizard 13//Cleric 13 is better than a Wiz 3/ Mystic Theurge 10// Cleric 3/Something Else10, at least as far as wizard an cleric abilities go. Personally, I'd go for classes that complimented existing class features, if not improving them.

Paragnostic Apostle, for example, is a PrC that can be for arcane and divine casters. Take it on your cleric side, and the benefits apply to your arcane and divine abilities.

You really can't go wrong with Incantatrix on your wizard side. Then...I dunno...Archmage? Maybe? It's kind of feat intensive, but one of the prereqs is Skill Focus (Spellcraft), which an Incantatrix may want anyway.

My suggestion: Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5//Cleric 5/Paragnostic Apostle 5/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10

Now you turn as a level 22 Cleric, and you can 'greater turn' a whole bunch. Not to mention that the Incantatrix's Improved/Instant metamagic do not specify that they are limited to arcane spells, so those bonuses affect using metamagic on your divine spells as well, which would also affect any Divine Metamagic cheesiness you wanted to do. That's the closest thing to being a worthwhile healer as you can get although some people disagree on how his boosted healing works (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351583-Radiant-Servant-of-Pelor-issues).

If you're going to specialize, as a wizard it makes going Incantatrix a little rougher, because Inc loses one more school of magic. But if you do, I suggest changing the arcane side to:

Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Incantatrix 10 - followed by your choice of more master specialist or archmage. MS requires spell focus in your chosen school, but then gives skill focus (spellcraft) as a bonus feat, which Incantartix's want anyway, and you're already halfway to the prereqs for archmage, should you decide to go that way.

[Synar]

The thing is this is so obvious cheese this would be banned outright, if not already impossible by RAW because of both side giving the same class feature only one is taken into acount.

But lets get a little bit more creative, shall we? What about a bard 1/wizard 4/fochlucan lyrist 10/cerebromancer 5 // cleric 3/rogue 2/crusader 5/war mind 5/ruby knight vindicator 5? There, you have the ultimate jack-of-trades, master of all, able to mimick any class or any role in the party, able to be one day a pure martial and initiator, the other day a gish, the other a full caster, and the last a buffer.

I mean, you get 19 level of wizard casting, 18 of cleric casting, 11th level bard music, 10 levels of initiator, full war mind psionic (1 to 6 level powers), and last but not least the war mind class features which are pretty good (not accounting for bardic knowledge, evasion, ruby knight features and turn undead, domains, first level bard casting, ...). On top of that, you have high BAB (probably +17-+18) and good saves, and good hit dies over all, quite better than a cleric//wizard.

But this was only a first try. If you like your spellcasting so much that you can't loose a level of it, you can still get quite some versatility just using theurge instead of fochlucan lyrist. And remimber, Ur-Priest, Eldrtitch and Divine theurge are also your friends (and that one who gave maneouvers/arcane) (or Ultimate Magus, but I don't think there is any fast arcane advancement out there). Feel free to tinker around.

EDIT: Lets not forget Sublime Chord.

[Jeff the Green]

Technically, unearthed arcana says that it 'should be' rather than actually is. It's one of those 'ask your DM' things.

Since it comes down to DM interpretation anyway, here's what I would do:

Dual-progression PrCs are banned unless they have their own unique class features. Honestly, for the early theurges I prefer replacing them with homebrew anyway.
PrCs must be qualified for on one side of the gestalt. (Not including BAB, saves, feats, or skill points, obviously, since those are shared by the whole build.)
Classes can only go on one side of the gestalt.


I think that fixes it, and some of the more abusive things like taking the levels of malconvoker, RKV, etc. on the side without casting, going Wizard 5/MT 10//Cleric 5/Crusader 10.

[Fouredged Sword]

When I DM, I generally allow duel progression PRC's, but you only get one progression of the players choice out of it. A wizard 15 // sorcerer 5 / ultimate magus 15 casts as a wizard 15 and sorcerer 15.

[jjcrpntr]

Yeah, if you are playing gestalt, Mystic Theurge simply does not exist. Instead play a Wizard//Cleric and be done with it.

I did this once, was loads of fun. Almost never ran out of spells, though the dual casting stats sucked.