Carmendine Monk

[m149307]

Is there a way that I can use Carmendine Monk with Monk's belt without being an actual monk? I am thinking of using Monk Belt with a wizard (and using the feat to get the AC boost to a stat that I don't dump) without going into Monk.

[animewatcha]

What you want is kung fu genius feat.

[Curmudgeon]

Neither of these work without Monk levels. Carmendine Monk requires you to be a member of Zealots of the Written Word Monk order. Kung Fu Genius benefits all Monk special abilities that normally rely on Wisdom, whereas a Monk's Belt doesn't grant actual Monk abilities, just a bonus that's like what Monks get.
If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.

[m149307]

So then if I wanted that extra AC, I would need to go into monk either way?

[animewatcha]

I can understand where He is coming from. however... The bonus being 'like the monk' is mainly that you need to be unarmored and unencumbered to get it. Carmendine would require a monk level or something like it due to fluff. Kung fu genius must be taken at 1st level of monk or before it. The main thing I'm getting at with KFG is that the 'before' never comes due to you never taking a level in monk. KFG also has it that you don't need to have the ac ability in the first place. Just you use int instead of wis for monk sterf.

[prufock]

Kung Fu Genius benefits all Monk special abilities that normally rely on Wisdom, whereas a Monk's Belt doesn't grant actual Monk abilities, just a bonus that's like what Monks get.
Does not compute.

The belt ability (B) functions "just like the monk's AC bonus (M)."
M can be keyed off intelligence instead of wisdom using Kung Fu Genius.
Therefore, B can be keyed off intelligence instead of wisdom using Kung Fu Genius.

[Elderand]

Does not compute.

The belt ability (B) functions "just like the monk's AC bonus (M)."
M can be keyed off intelligence instead of wisdom using Kung Fu Genius.
Therefore, B can be keyed off intelligence instead of wisdom using Kung Fu Genius.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b9/MagrittePipe.jpg

[Vaz]

Bear in mind that Curmudgeon rules excessively in favour of over strict rulings looking at them in minutiae that games designers probably didn't overthink too much.

Most people tend to ignore such rulings, except in TO arguments, so feel free to ask your DM if you can use KFG to qualify for Int to AC. After all, it is a feat, and there are often better ways to get access to higher AC than with a feat.

[m149307]

Better ways to get AC?

[Telonius]

CoV does describe the order as an order of monks, but it doesn't say that the organization requires levels of Monk to join. There's not much other information on the Zealots of the Written Word otherwise - apparently there's a mention of it in a 2nd edition source (Faiths and Avatars) but I don't have access to that.

[Darkweave31]

I don't see why you'd need the monk's belt in the first place. Just do what all the other wizards do and alter self/polymorph into something with +silly natural armor, cast mirror image/displacement and dance around the fighter who now has a lower AC than you. At higher levels use mystic shield + ghost form to simply become immune to physical attacks. As a wizard, you have access to a near infinite number of better ways to not get hit than +int to AC.

As for the rules question... Kung Fu Genis would work since it must be taken at or before the first level of monk taken (I guess so long as you plan to take monk at around level 1862983746 you're good). Carmendine Monk assumes you are part of a specific monastic order, which the book seems to imply requires monk levels.

[m149307]

Darkweave, i didn't know about those spells. How long would it take to cast them all, and how long do they last?

[Darkweave31]

Many can be found in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm) or spell compendium... I would recommend browsing several wizard guides (Google will help with that) to get some other ideas on good spells to use since those are just a few that came to mind.

Ideally, if you play it right you won't need AC because you'll never give the enemy a chance to act (of course that's not always possible which is what contingency plans are for). At higher levels AC also becomes a bit useless since attack bonuses grow much faster.

Spells and effects that offer miss chances become more useful since it doesn't matter how high the attacker's roll is. Mirror image, displacement, (superior/greater) invisibility, (greater) blink, and ghostform are all good for that.

Spells that grant alternate movement forms can be good for simply avoiding attacks. Fly/overland flight negates any melee attacker that can't also fly.

Spells that control the battlefield are probably the best way to protect yourself (a good offense and whatnot). Web, Glitterdust, solid fog, stinking cloud, black tentacles, etc are all great for making sure that the enemy never actually targets you with an attack. Dispelling screen is a wall spell that blocks any spell that is cast through it. Prismatic wall/sphere is fun for stopping pretty-much everything.

Then there are the spells that simply make you immune to things. Ironguard makes you immune to any metal. Starmantle makes you immune to nonmagic weapons and only take half damage from magic ones. Ghostform again makes you immune to nonmagic attacks and gives magic ones (barring force and similar effects) a 50% chance to not affect you. Shapechange can give you a variety of immunities and resistances that can be changed as a free action every round.

So yeah, point is that as a wizard you really don't need to boost your AC all that much since you have tons of other options for avoiding damage and winning encounters.

Perhaps you should start another thread if you have more questions on spell selection since your question here has been answered. It'll help refocus the discussion and draw more attention to your new questions.

[Vaz]

Better ways to get AC?

KFG + monks belt nets you, without additional int investment, on a grey elf wizard at ECL 20, grants +7 AC

Greater Luminous Armour provides +8 for a spell slot, as opposed to a feat.

If you really optimize your Int, you can get +14, which is matched by Greater Luminous Armour and polymorphing into a troglodyte or something for a +6 Natural Armour bonus or even higher.

[John Longarrow]

KFG + monks belt nets you, without additional int investment, on a grey elf wizard at ECL 20, grants +7 AC

Greater Luminous Armour provides +8 for a spell slot, as opposed to a feat.

If you really optimize your Int, you can get +14, which is matched by Greater Luminous Armour and polymorphing into a troglodyte or something for a +6 Natural Armour bonus or even higher.

Vaz,

Your forgetting how easy Abjuration Champion is to qualify for. One feat and you can get +10 to AC by throwing up a luminous/greater luminous armor and shield. That is +10 above what these low level spells already give you...

[m149307]

John I don't see how Abjurant Champ is good unless I go all 5 levels. And that would weaken my build since I would have to wait until 10th level to be able to take it (unless i dipped into something wiht better BAB) and at 10th i was planning on entering the IoSV.

[Phelix-Mu]

Pretty much every level of Abjurant Champ is good. Full BAB, full casting, good HD, no dead levels. You definitely don't need the capstone to get sizable benefit from it, especially if you are doing anything gishy or involving a lot of rolling d20s to attack (like a lot of rays or whatever).

[m149307]

Phelix-Mu would I be able to take that and IoSV?

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, full wizard/low BAB PrC will probably delay entry quite a bit, since I believe you need +5 BAB to enter. But, other than that, just about any wizard should be able to enter, since the requirements are extremely minimal (know a couple different abjuration spells or something like that).

[Vhaidara]

Abjurant Champion has full casting progression, therefore it is almost fundamentally better than 5 levels of Wizard. You lose a bonus feat for the benefits of...
All Abjuration AC bonuses are increased by 5
All Abjurations are auto-Extended
All Abjurations of 3rd level or lower are auto-Quickened
Arcane boost if you want to play around with the melees
5 levels of d10 HD as opposed to d4
5 levels of full BAB

Unfortunately, you can't enter AbC off of pure wizard until 11 (Wiz 10/AbC 1), and you can't enter IotSV until level 10 (Wiz 9/IotSV 1). However, that still gives you room for 4 levels of AbC (Wiz 9/IotSV 7/AbC 4). This nets you
All Abjuration AC bonuses are increased by 4
All Abjurations are auto-Extended
All Abjurations of 2nd level or lower are auto-Quickened
Arcane boost if you want to play around with the melees
4 levels of d10 HD as opposed to d4
4 levels of full BAB

Also, talk to your GM about counting Wardings as Abjuration If allowed, they are auto-extended and possibly auto-quickened, depending on how much you can get away with.

[m149307]

Viels being auto-quickened/extended would def be a no, I can tell. And I get d6 HD, not d4 (another house rule that works in my favor.) but that sounds like a good idea, just wish it could come together sooner than level 20 since we level really slow.

[Muggins]

Viels being auto-quickened/extended would def be a no, I can tell. And I get d6 HD, not d4 (another house rule that works in my favor.) but that sounds like a good idea, just wish it could come together sooner than level 20 since we level really slow.
As a wizard, I believe you'll find that you're more than capable of doing these things with your base class. Initiate of the sevenfold Veil and Abjurant Champion are simply an improvement of your already immense powers.