LGBTAI+ 51: Lay That Hammer Down!

[Miriel]

I'm ashamed to say it's only been the past few years that I've really become more aware of feminism and begun to adopt a more critical, scrutinous eye for the media I consume. And in light of looking at things from that new perspective, I'm often shocked by what now seems to be glaring, blatant examples of sexism, transphobia, and homophobia in media I used to enjoy. I ask myself how I could possibly have just swallowed that sort of thing, before realising that most of society does exactly that: swallows it down and sees nothing wrong with the way so much media portrays these bigotries as not only casual and nothing to pay much heed to, but natural.
You don't have to swallow it, but it's not because it's sexist that you have to throw it away. I love Tolkien, yet it's absurdly sexist and racist. Media that's already written is already written. What we can do, however, is write new media without the oppression.

[Lord Raziere]

Speaking as someone who intends to be an author themselves someday:
If I wanted to portray any sort of LGBTAI character in a story, I'd probably make it a plausible focus of the plot and how the character deals with it, so that I can focus on it and really do it justice. I'd rather write a single story where this sort of thing is portrayed well, than try to make multiple ones were its like included as a side thing, y'know?

that and romance is kind of tricky to portray in my mind, even when its the "typical" kind and any sort of LGBTAI character is probably going to involve romance in some way or another. in short, for a LGBTAI character of any kind to be done justice, the plot has to have romance in it, and not just be tacked in, but be a major focus of it, and that comes with all the problems romances are prone to. you have to develop the relationship right so that its believable that they're really in love and not just puppy love or love at first sight, you have to make sure both characters are done justice so that it doesn't look one sided, but if you make them fight too much it doesn't really look like they're in love at all, and if you make the various romantic relationships too convoluted it risks becoming too much of a distraction from other parts of the plot, you have to include just the right mix of conflict and close bonding for the relationship to be believable- its the kind of thing that if your not careful with, you'll write yourself into a quagmire.

sort of why if I want to do such a thing justice, I'd want it to be well-integrated and well thought out before hand, it has to somehow be important to the story, because its a major part of the character's relationship with the people around them, and how it affects them. I mean sure a given character could be gay or whatever in any given plot, but unless its an important part of the story, its probably not worth bringing up.

[Lix Lorn]

I was particularly impressed by the Girl With a Dragon Tattoo series. There are main characters who are bi or lesbian, but there's also one supporting character. You don't find out he's gay until book 2/3 where it casually mentions his boyfriend. That's kinda ideal for me. If a minor male character has space in their dialogue to mention their girlfriend or wife, why not boyfriend/husband instead?

[KerfuffleMach2]

The overwhelming number of gay artists and the almost total lack of gay representation in art is definitely due to homophobia. It doesn't mean the art is homophobic; artists are making gay art and it's being ignored by a culture totally disinterested in the lives and stories of gay people. That's the homophobia.



God that was preachy and boring, I'm sorry.

Didn't know there was a lack of known gay artists out there. Mostly because I don't really look into the person's personal life.

[Miriel]

Hugs?


Speaking as someone who intends to be an author themselves someday:
If I wanted to portray any sort of LGBTAI character in a story, I'd probably make it a plausible focus of the plot and how the character deals with it, so that I can focus on it and really do it justice. I'd rather write a single story where this sort of thing is portrayed well, than try to make multiple ones were its like included as a side thing, y'know?

that and romance is kind of tricky to portray in my mind, even when its the "typical" kind and any sort of LGBTAI character is probably going to involve romance in some way or another. in short, for a LGBTAI character of any kind to be done justice, the plot has to have romance in it, and not just be tacked in, but be a major focus of it, and that comes with all the problems romances are prone to. you have to develop the relationship right so that its believable that they're really in love and not just puppy love or love at first sight, you have to make sure both characters are done justice so that it doesn't look one sided, but if you make them fight too much it doesn't really look like they're in love at all, and if you make the various romantic relationships too convoluted it risks becoming too much of a distraction from other parts of the plot, you have to include just the right mix of conflict and close bonding for the relationship to be believable- its the kind of thing that if your not careful with, you'll write yourself into a quagmire.

sort of why if I want to do such a thing justice, I'd want it to be well-integrated and well thought out before hand, it has to somehow be important to the story, because its a major part of the character's relationship with the people around them, and how it affects them. I mean sure a given character could be gay or whatever in any given plot, but unless its an important part of the story, its probably not worth bringing up.
I'm going to say the opposite: I prefer if it's totally meaningless to the story. A good gay or trans character is an otherwise good character who happens to be gay or trans.

Say you have a great story with a great plot and everything, and it's about -- say -- giant killer robots or whatever. Why couldn't Robot Killer dude be trans without that fact change anything about the story? In really life, trans people are also normal people. I think we need more trans people who are mostly other things in media, instead of plots centered around that.

[Kindablue]

Didn't know there was a lack of known gay artists out there. Mostly because I don't really look into the person's personal life.

That's not what I'm saying. The gay artists make straight art because they have to eat and the other kind doesn't sell.

[Kesnit]

Yeah, that does clarify it better. And I see where you're coming from and mostly agree with you. Having the token gay guy is better than ignoring the existence of gay people for no articular reason.

I disagree. IMO, having the "token" makes it worse because it's clear the character in question is a token. That the character (or the character's orientation) was added only for the purpose of saying "see, I have a gay character."

An author I really like wrote a series of books that include several gay characters. (The main character of one trilogy in the series is a gay man, and another 5 books have a gay man as one of the main characters. There's also a few lesbians, though none are main characters.)

She has written other series that have no gay characters. Are those series homophobic because she didn't include a gay character? Even though it would not really make sense to say one of the secondary characters is gay. (One specific series I'm thinking of focuses on 2 main characters - a man and a woman - who eventually end up in a relationship with each other. There are other characters, but the romantic lives of those characters is not applicable to the story.)

TL;DR: It's fine to have gay characters, if there is a point to having a gay character (or it makes sense to have a gay character). But there is a huge difference between "there's no gay characters in this book" and "this book is homophobic because there's no gay characters"

[BladeofObliviom]

I'm going to say the opposite: I prefer if it's totally meaningless to the story. A good gay or trans character is an otherwise good character who happens to be gay or trans.

Say you have a great story with a great plot and everything, and it's about -- say -- giant killer robots or whatever. Why couldn't Robot Killer dude be trans without that fact change anything about the story? In really life, trans people are also normal people. I think we need more trans people who are mostly other things in media, instead of plots centered around that.

Agreed here. In fact, whenever I write a non-heterosexual character, I usually go out of my way to ensure that it is not the most important (or worse, only) factor in their personality. That's not to say that I relegate it to total unimportance, since that way lies tokenism and such a thing can change a person's "backstory" enough to have noticeable effects on the way they see and do things, but not every story involving a non-heterosexual character has to be specifically about that.

(The same presumably applies to trans characters, except that I have yet to actually write a trans character so I shouldn't say so when discussing my past writing practices.)

[Lord Raziere]

Say you have a great story with a great plot and everything, and it's about -- say -- giant killer robots or whatever. Why couldn't Robot Killer dude be trans without that fact change anything about the story? In really life, trans people are also normal people. I think we need more trans people who are mostly other things in media, instead of plots centered around that.

Ok, but how would you bring up that they're trans without it being contrived? at one point would this be mentioned about robot killer dude? how would you make it something that isn't blatantly shoved in detail?

[Athedia]

I think my big problem in books is a little different. You don't really see ace characters represented at all, unless they are the loner or the weirdo freak.

[BladeofObliviom]

Ok, but how would you bring up that they're trans without it being contrived? at one point would this be mentioned about robot killer dude? how would you make it something that isn't blatantly shoved in detail?

Developing characters without being heavy-handed, incongruous with the greater story's tone, or boring is one of many challenges that make writing hard. Maybe the robots can adapt their bodies to whatever they wish in a matter of minutes and this causes our protagonist to envy them somewhat? Maybe this protagonist is ashamed of that emotion because they're supposed to hate the killer robots instead of being fascinated with them? I dunno, I'm grasping at straws here, but I'm sure a more talented writer than I could come up with something.


I think my big problem in books is a little different. You don't really see ace characters represented at all, unless they are the loner or the weirdo freak.

This one causes me some bother too. I generally just pretend that otherwise well-adjusted characters who aren't displayed showing interest in other characters are asexual and that makes me feel better about it for a while.

[Miriel]

Ok, but how would you bring up that they're trans without it being contrived? at one point would this be mentioned about robot killer dude? how would you make it something that isn't blatantly shoved in detail?
Depends on the story. The author can do it, though, as JK Rowling with Dumbledore. Dumbledore is an entirely legit character with an awesome everything, and we also know he's gay. Or just reveal it about something minor, like the boyfriend/girlfriend thing with gay people, or perhaps make it a minor point in some interaction, for instance by having Robot Killer dude snap at some transphobic comment and say they are trans as a result. Or, for extra daring, in visual media, you could have a totally not passing character whose lack of passing is not a plot point.

[Togath]

Or, for extra daring, in visual media, you could have a totally not passing character whose lack of passing is not a plot point.

If tabletop rpgs count(which they might, since I end up describing scenes and npcs the party encounters), I did do something similar with a lesbian couple in my current campaign.
They're admittedly not as visible as a trans character, but I figure it's still an interesting inclusion*:smallsmile:
*though I'm not sure if any of the party members have gotten that they're lesbians, it'll be interesting to see if the subject ever pops up

[Lix Lorn]

...I've noticed that in games I run, every major character tends to be female.
...except the villains.

If my players ever catch on to this INCREDIBLY COMPLEX CODE, things may become difficult.

[SiuiS]

Anyone ever re-read older things and be struck by the casual sexism that you missed as a kid?

Actually, not just older books. I read a book set in the future and noticed several moments of transphobia and homophobia.

Actually, I—


I'm ashamed to say it's only been the past few years that I've really become more aware of feminism and begun to adopt a more critical, scrutinous eye for the media I consume. And in light of looking at things from that new perspective, I'm often shocked by what now seems to be glaring, blatant examples of sexism, transphobia, and homophobia in media I used to enjoy. I ask myself how I could possibly have just swallowed that sort of thing, before realising that most of society does exactly that: swallows it down and sees nothing wrong with the way so much media portrays these bigotries as not only casual and nothing to pay much heed to, but natural.

All of this.


The overwhelming number of gay artists and the almost total lack of gay representation in art is definitely due to homophobia. It doesn't mean the art is homophobic; artists are making gay art and it's being ignored by a culture totally disinterested in the lives and stories of gay people. That's the homophobia.

God that was preachy and boring, I'm sorry.

Naw, we need some of that sometimes.

Also, hi! I see you're a flower again. Did we ever decide which kind of bee was your gender flip?


...I've noticed that in games I run, every major character tends to be female.
...except the villains.

If my players ever catch on to this INCREDIBLY COMPLEX CODE, things may become difficult.

Hee~

[Ifni]

In the fantasy series I'm thinking of (just as an example), almost every minor male character has a woman he thinks about. It's not a big deal, but they read letters from girlfriends / ogle pretty women in bars / joke about marrying ugly women for their money etc. And at the end pretty much everyone ends up paired off in male/female relationships. (I'm pretty sure the only exceptions are pre-pubescent kids.) Their straightness isn't a plot point, but it is not really possible to read the books and get the impression that any of the adult characters could possibly be gay or ace or any orientation other than straight. (At least for the male characters. The "good" adult female character is in love with one of the guys, but in the first series it's fairly subtle and can be read as purely platonic.) Thinking about other series I've read, this is pretty ubiquitous - people talk about their partners, people get introduced as "so-and-so's boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife", people stress about who likes who / is sleeping with who, people notice other people's attractiveness, even in books where none of this is the focus of the plot.

(As others have said, ace people tend to be pretty unrepresented. I look for characters who show no apparent interest in sex or romance. It's rare! I can only think of one off-hand who actually explicitly said that she wasn't interested in sex with either men or women.)

I think it shouldn't be too hard, at that level, to acknowledge that not everyone is attracted to the opposite gender, and I've read series that manage it just fine. Or, what Lix said :smallwink:

(Again, though, I wasn't saying that any books without gay characters are homophobic. I was saying that in a particular series I read, there was no active homophobia due to a total lack of gay characters, but I'm not really comfortable with saying that series isn't at all homophobic, because it did happily reinforce the idea that Absolutely Everyone Is Absolutely Straight, and that feels like an aspect of homophobia, to me.)

It might be harder to write this sort of no-big-deal acknowledgement of trans characters just because gender-assigned-at-birth isn't a constant presence in stories the way that attraction/relationships are - a well-written passing trans character is probably pretty much indistinguishable from a well-written cis character of the same gender, unless you get to see inside their thoughts or backstory (like with Caroline's suggestion that they might snap at a transphobic comment), or unless challenges specific to their trans-ness come up. But the author can simply state it, as Caroline says. Or in series or books where you see scenes from multiple time periods, the reader could possibly encounter the person as a child and then later as an adult. Non-binary characters might actually be easier to include in a way that makes it clear that they're non-binary without it being any kind of big deal (and I would dearly love to see more well-written non-binary characters).

Not to poke at you, Raziere, but "it has to be important to the story" is also something I've seen people say about including female characters: "Why would I make the innkeeper female? There's no need for that character to be female". And it seems to go back to the assumption that male/straight/cis/white characters are the default, that you don't need any reason for a character to have those attributes, but anything else is a deviation from that standard of normality and has to be justified. (I'm not accusing you of this, just saying that seems to be a common feeling.) Of course, the odds of a random person being gay are significantly lower than the odds of them being female, but they're not negligible.

On tokens vs total non-representation: yeah, this is why I said "in some ways" I'd rather have cliched female/minority characters rather than their total non-existence. I'm not happy with either option, but I know from experience that I can read and enjoy books with stereotypical female characters (I can usually find some elements I sympathize with), but the one time I made it through a 1000-page tome where an alien could've read the book and not realized that humans had more than one gender (with that one gender being Very Definitely Male, and with no in-setting justification for it, the author just didn't seem to see any reason to write women as people), that book went on my very short list of "never read again". I can easily see other people having different opinions on this, just erasure seems to bother me personally at least as much as tokenism.

... oof, too long, sorry. Ah well, apologies for the wall of text.

[Jaycemonde]

That's not what I'm saying. The gay artists make straight art because they have to eat and the other kind doesn't sell.

One word. Furries. Another word. Tumblr.
Anyone who can't find buyers for "gay art" just isn't looking in the right place.


It's free, actually. Pretty decent massively multiplayer shooter. All the rainbow decals and stuff are player-created, not actually created by Sony, but it's nice that they approved it.

Actually, the Full Spectrum decal is official Sony. You can tell because they bunked up on it and made it look like it was at an angle instead of full-on, so it looks ridiculous on shoulder armor and MAX chestplates :> Love Free is a player decal, though.
As for the game itself, the main thing setting it apart is that instead of having a bunch of individual 10-vs-10 or so matches in a vacuum in space and time, it's all one big server (or, well, more like five, but they're gonna merge them in a few months) where all the battle lines are constantly ebbing and flowing and you have to get reinforcements in the form of other players from other parts of the continent you're on, so there are always convoys of troops and big formations of carriers moving around and stuff around your little combat zone.

[Ifni]

...I've noticed that in games I run, every major character tends to be female.
...except the villains.

If my players ever catch on to this INCREDIBLY COMPLEX CODE, things may become difficult.

... wait. But. This innocent well-meaning Solar... the one who Glass is grumpily trying to be sort-of-nice toward, in defiance of her allegiances and training... he's a guy. (Yeah, I'm one of Lix's players.)

LIX I TRUSTED YOUR NPCS TO BE CUDDLY AND ADORABLE :smalltongue:

(And the Worst Immaculate Monk Ever is a guy too! Actually, thinking back, I think you are fibbing: your NPCs seem well gender-balanced to me. I'm going to assume all the male NPCs I like just count as minor characters :smallwink:)

[Kindablue]

Also, hi! I see you're a flower again. Did we ever decide which kind of bee was your gender flip?
The yellow kind? Are there other kinds?


One word. Furries. Another word. Tumblr.
Anyone who can't find buyers for "gay art" just isn't looking in the right place.
You can also interpret "eat" as a metaphor for wanting fame and recognition and not literally food and money, but regardless of motivations, that only the straight stuff gets to the top is homophobia. And I meant in the past, but that wasn't clear except by the context (books you read as a kid).

Oh, I just reread my post and got where Kerfuffle misread me. I meant "gay representation" as in gay characters in the stories, not gay writers.

[Marnath]

This one causes me some bother too. I generally just pretend that otherwise well-adjusted characters who aren't displayed showing interest in other characters are asexual and that makes me feel better about it for a while.

Hmm. You know, it doesn't really bother me. Probably because so many people don't care if they never see you dating so it never comes up. Asexuality as an invisible trait is the way it goes in real life a lot of times, why not in books?

[KerfuffleMach2]

...I've noticed that in games I run, every major character tends to be female.
...except the villains.

If my players ever catch on to this INCREDIBLY COMPLEX CODE, things may become difficult.

I don't really run any games, cause that takes skills I don't have, but...

I've noticed that pretty much anything I play, be they tabletop, computer, or console, I go for a female character if I can. Not sure why. I just do.

[ArlEammon]

I'm lonely. Lately I've been feeling more like a female than a male.
I want to be held in a big, hunk of a man and be his sweet fem boy girl, and for him to be my MAN.

It's odd. I've considering myself straight since child hood until around ten years ago. Then I just started to get less and less heterosexual as time goes by.

Im so lonely. It's like no one loves me. Girls never talk to me. The guys never talk to me.

I feel like (triggers spoiler)_ cutting myself again. . . It's a good thing I"m not addicted to it anymore. But everything just feels out of control.

There's no such ****ing thing as love in my world.

[Heliomance]

I FINALLY got an appointment through from CX! On the other hand, I've been on the waiting list for Exeter for about a month now, and I've heard they're better. I don't know what to do :/

[Miriel]

I'm lonely. Lately I've been feeling more like a female than a male.
I want to be held in a big, hunk of a man and be his sweet fem boy girl, and for him to be my MAN.

It's odd. I've considering myself straight since child hood until around ten years ago. Then I just started to get less and less heterosexual as time goes by.

Im so lonely. It's like no one loves me. Girls never talk to me. The guys never talk to me.

I feel like (triggers spoiler)_ cutting myself again. . . It's a good thing I"m not addicted to it anymore. But everything just feels out of control.

There's no such ****ing thing as love in my world.
*hug offer*

Yeah... Love, etc., is hard. Especially when you're not straight. I don't know what else to say...


I FINALLY got an appointment through from CX! On the other hand, I've been on the waiting list for Exeter for about a month now, and I've heard they're better. I don't know what to do :/
Yay :smallbiggrin:

You can start at Charing Cross, and if you get news from Exeter, switch there during the process?

[Lex-Kat]

I FINALLY got an appointment through from CX! On the other hand, I've been on the waiting list for Exeter for about a month now, and I've heard they're better. I don't know what to do :/

*hug offer*

Yeah... Love, etc., is hard. Especially when you're not straight. I don't know what else to say...


Yay :smallbiggrin:

You can start at Charing Cross, and if you get news from Exeter, switch there during the process?

This is the advice I was thinking. Would there be a problem with switching?

[Mono Vertigo]

Sooo I've finally poster the LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?356522-General-LGBTAI-Questions-and-Discussion-thread!&p=17621724#post17621724). As announced in the title, it's meant for information. (Warning: I don't think there are going to be trigger warnings or banned subjects or words beyond what general politeness would imply.)
If anyone wishes to answer or ask questions, they're welcome.
Thanks again for your feedback!

[Zorg]

Might be useful to copy over the glossary maybe?

[Mono Vertigo]

I was not sure about the ethics of copying an important part of another thread's OP without asking. Would anybody here mind if I copied this thread's glossary?

[Athedia]

Hmm. You know, it doesn't really bother me. Probably because so many people don't care if they never see you dating so it never comes up. Asexuality as an invisible trait is the way it goes in real life a lot of times, why not in books?

Because there are genuine struggles with it. Sure I am good at passing, but my not desiring sex at least in this country makes me a freak. Add to that the fact that I do want romance and a close attachment to someone else and of the people I have dated, the first I never came out too, the second was accepting but I sabotaged the relationship out of fear and the third felt a need to "fix" me. Then people I consider my friends make jokes about my "relationships" their quotes. I want to see a character struggling with these issues.

[Zorg]

I was not sure about the ethics of copying an important part of another thread's OP without asking. Would anybody here mind if I copied this thread's glossary?

Well I re-wrote the list into it's current form so I certainly don't :smalltongue:

[Mono Vertigo]

That certainly makes things much easier. :smallbiggrin:
Thanks a lot! I copied the list with credits.

[Arachu]

I'm lonely. Lately I've been feeling more like a female than a male.
I want to be held in a big, hunk of a man and be his sweet fem boy girl, and for him to be my MAN.

It's odd. I've considering myself straight since child hood until around ten years ago. Then I just started to get less and less heterosexual as time goes by.

Im so lonely. It's like no one loves me. Girls never talk to me. The guys never talk to me.

I feel like (triggers spoiler)_ cutting myself again. . . It's a good thing I"m not addicted to it anymore. But everything just feels out of control.

There's no such ****ing thing as love in my world.

*Isn't really sure what to say either, but hugs close*

~Bianca

[Miriel]

Because there are genuine struggles with it. Sure I am good at passing, but my not desiring sex at least in this country makes me a freak. Add to that the fact that I do want romance and a close attachment to someone else and of the people I have dated, the first I never came out too, the second was accepting but I sabotaged the relationship out of fear and the third felt a need to "fix" me. Then people I consider my friends make jokes about my "relationships" their quotes. I want to see a character struggling with these issues.
I agree. Asexuality is hard in some ways, and we have real issues.

In my case, I'm more or less out as asexual because most people can guess than I'm not interested in sex, but the result is that basically everyone, I feel, thinks I must also be uninterested with relationships. Not so.

[Marnath]

I agree. Asexuality is hard in some ways, and we have real issues.

In my case, I'm more or less out as asexual because most people can guess than I'm not interested in sex, but the result is that basically everyone, I feel, thinks I must also be uninterested with relationships. Not so.

I wonder how much of my views on my sexuality are actually due to being aromantic. It seems like I've been conflating them a bit. I guess that's why I don't have a problem with the lack of representation in the media, not because there isn't an associated stereotype but rather it just doesn't personally apply to me.

Hah, it feels a little strange to admit but I know as little about being romantic as I do about being trans. It's just one of those things I can only research and try to understand on an intellectual level.

[Miriel]

I wonder how much of my views on my sexuality are actually due to being aromantic. It seems like I've been conflating them a bit. I guess that's why I don't have a problem with the lack of representation in the media, not because there isn't an associated stereotype but rather it just doesn't personally apply to me.

Hah, it feels a little strange to admit but I know as little about being romantic as I do about being trans. It's just one of those things I can only research and try to understand on an intellectual level.
I don't know much about romance, but I want to have a person (on the feminine side of the spectrum) with whom I have a strong, unique and exclusive relationship. And I also want children eventually. So I guess that counts as being homoromantic.

[Athedia]

I don't know much about romance, but I want to have a person (on the feminine side of the spectrum) with whom I have a strong, unique and exclusive relationship. And I also want children eventually. So I guess that counts as being homoromantic.

That is what I want too, though I am fine with whatever gender. Though in RL I pass as hetero just because of where I live.

[KerfuffleMach2]

I'm lonely. Lately I've been feeling more like a female than a male.
I want to be held in a big, hunk of a man and be his sweet fem boy girl, and for him to be my MAN.

It's odd. I've considering myself straight since child hood until around ten years ago. Then I just started to get less and less heterosexual as time goes by.

Im so lonely. It's like no one loves me. Girls never talk to me. The guys never talk to me.

I feel like (triggers spoiler)_ cutting myself again. . . It's a good thing I"m not addicted to it anymore. But everything just feels out of control.

There's no such ****ing thing as love in my world.

On the point of feeling alone and unwanted, I know what that's like. I've been feeling that way for...well, at least a year or two now.

PM me and I can talk with ya. Sometimes it's good to just talk about this stuff.

[Lix Lorn]

... wait. But. This innocent well-meaning Solar... the one who Glass is grumpily trying to be sort-of-nice toward, in defiance of her allegiances and training... he's a guy. (Yeah, I'm one of Lix's players.)

LIX I TRUSTED YOUR NPCS TO BE CUDDLY AND ADORABLE :smalltongue:

(And the Worst Immaculate Monk Ever is a guy too! Actually, thinking back, I think you are fibbing: your NPCs seem well gender-balanced to me. I'm going to assume all the male NPCs I like just count as minor characters :smallwink:)
Trust you to come and post the post after I say that. :smalltongue:

But hey, if it's not coming across that way, awesome. Does Joy count as a villain? I mean, he seems like a cool guy, but he DID throw zombies at you.

[Ifni]

Trust you to come and post the post after I say that. :smalltongue:

But hey, if it's not coming across that way, awesome. Does Joy count as a villain? I mean, he seems like a cool guy, but he DID throw zombies at you.

I think the guy who created infectious zombie hordes and threw them at a city counts as a villain, yeah, even if he was out of his league :smallwink:

So far the only people I would count as villains are Joy and possibly the new akuma (not really enough evidence there yet), so ok, 100% of your villains are male by that metric, but it's a small sample size, and you have male non-villainous NPCs.

Aaaanyway back to the topic of the thread :smallwink:

[Comrade]

So I've been looking into methods of permanent hair removal... and ****ing hell is it daunting.

Apparently, the two prime choices currently available are laser removal, which is costly and seems to come with the significant possibility that even with repeated sessions it won't permanently remove the hair, and electrolysis, which appears to have originated as an ancient Chinese torture method. And considering how much hair I have in sensitive places around my face like my throat, electrolysis seems just that much more excruciating. But it's cheaper and guarantees permanent removal of the hairs... ;_;

[Coidzor]

So I've been looking into methods of permanent hair removal... and ****ing hell is it daunting.

Apparently, the two prime choices currently available are laser removal, which is costly and seems to come with the significant possibility that even with repeated sessions it won't permanently remove the hair, and electrolysis, which appears to have originated as an ancient Chinese torture method. And considering how much hair I have in sensitive places around my face like my throat, electrolysis seems just that much more excruciating. But it's cheaper and guarantees permanent removal of the hairs... ;_;

I don't know that electrolysis is quite that bad for everyone. My mother isn't the most stoic of people, and she never mentioned or complained of pain from the process.

[Miriel]

So I've been looking into methods of permanent hair removal... and ****ing hell is it daunting.

Apparently, the two prime choices currently available are laser removal, which is costly and seems to come with the significant possibility that even with repeated sessions it won't permanently remove the hair, and electrolysis, which appears to have originated as an ancient Chinese torture method. And considering how much hair I have in sensitive places around my face like my throat, electrolysis seems just that much more excruciating. But it's cheaper and guarantees permanent removal of the hairs... ;_;
My opinion, reading on the Internet, etc., is that laser is good to start with, and then you kill the remaining hair with electrolysis.

Do you have pale skin and dark hair? If so, laser is probably more efficient to start with. If not, electrolysis, period.

One big advantage of laser is you get to shave. AFAIK, you have to go unshaven to electrolysis sessions. + it's a much more heavy commitment. Although every hour is less costly, I think, you will need a lot more hours. I'm doing laser right now, and it's one appointment a month, and it doesn't last very long each time.

[Zorg]

I've had (and continue to have) electolysis and some areas don't hurt much, a little stinging, but some areas it's like having flaming nails driven into your face. Personally the area just under the nose and by my ear are the worst as there's lots of nerves there. Even though I've never been one who could have anything approaching facial hair beyond looking slightly unshaven (but not in a designer stubble way) I've had around 110 hours of treatment and am almost done. The average for facial hair according to my tech is around 250 hours, the most she's done was a client who took around 500 hours. I started by getting three hours a week at first, and they alternated my face and neck, but now I just get an hour every 3-4 weeks since there's almost nothing left now. Probably also going to get some done on my eyebrows too so I don't have to pluck as much.

And as Caroline said you can't be clean shaven beforehand as they need to be able to see the hair to know which follicle to probe and also to be able to grip it to pull it out. You will be very red, bumpy and possibly slightly bleeding afterwards, and you have to keep the skin dry for several days afterwards so also makeup free if that's a thing.

Also electrolysis has a 90-95% success rate when they zap a hair, so you will get some ingrown hairs and I've had some really bad ones as they're growing right from the base (I once had one that by the time I couldn't take it any more [I was hoping to survive til my next session] it was about 15mm long and totally ingrown ouch).

But all that aside it really works and while it does hurt seeing the hair not come back was wonderful.

[Comrade]

Do you have pale skin and dark hair? If so, laser is probably more efficient to start with. If not, electrolysis, period.

I have dark hair but somewhat olive-ish skin. Also, it seemed to me that laser usually doesn't permanently remove the hairs, it just causes them to be slower in growing and less prominent. Is that true in your experience?


I don't know that electrolysis is quite that bad for everyone. My mother isn't the most stoic of people, and she never mentioned or complained of pain from the process.
I guess it depends on where you get it done and to what extent. The majority of the stories I've found on the internet seem to concur with Zorg (in other words, flaming nails). Which isn't very encouraging, because I have a terrible tolerance for pain. :v

[Lentrax]

It should come as no surprise that I consider my tolerance lower as well.

Though if, and his is my opinion based on my experiences, so YMMV, I can think about what is to happen, and realize I have to let it happen, then the pain I expect is worse than the pain in fact.

So I suppose this is in order...

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain"

[Astrella]

I have dark hair but somewhat olive-ish skin. Also, it seemed to me that laser usually doesn't permanently remove the hairs, it just causes them to be slower in growing and less prominent. Is that true in your experience?

It's called not permanent hair removal but rather hair reduction since it won't get rid of 100% of the hairs. (or at least not without a completely unreasonable number of sessions) Hair follicles are also tough and sometimes regenerate again between sessions. Not to mention that hair grows in cycles too. I've only had three sessions so far and I've had a pretty significant reduction already.

Oh, the thing I seem to remember though is that while you have high T-levels laser will be less effective cause there could still be new hair follicles appearing, undoing progress. (Which is why it's generally advised to wait until starting HRT) I'm not sure if the same is true for electrolisis though. It's probably best to just contact a few people about it and ask.

[golentan]

I have given any hypothetical daughter blanket permission to kick me in the nethers if I threaten someone she dates like the iconic stereotypical dad. I've put a couple of friends in charge of enforcing this should I backpedal.

I think part of the reason I hate that whole thing is the anti-feminist double standard that boys are supposed to go forth and conquer and girls need to be protected from anything sexual. How the hell are they supposed to find mr/ms right if I chase everyone they bring home out of the house? And yeah, I hope their dating goes well, but I can't shelter them from the hazards of it and still expect them to grow into a healthy adult capable of recognizing and holding onto a healthy relationship. Is it so bad that I want my hypothetical kids to wait until they're ready and have someone worth having sex with, but when that happens I hope they have a lot of (safe, sane, and consensual) fun? I'd rather they have sex safely with someone or under circumstances which I disapprove than sneak behind my back and have unsafe sex because they're afraid I'll find their birth control and attack their date... (I knew a girl that happened to in high school... Her dad beat up her boyfriend when he found their condoms so she stopped using birth control, and wound up pregnant senior year).

Plus, it always seemed kinda creepy. It often comes off as sexual jealousy. A reverse oedipal complex. :smallyuk:

[Heliomance]

You could always go equal opportunities by threatening the girls your hypothetical son brings home too :smallbiggrin:

[golentan]

Because the issue with patriarchy is that the inequality is awful, but the oppression when directed at everyone equally is good fun for the whole family? :smallconfused:

[Comrade]

Because the issue with patriarchy is that the inequality is awful, but the oppression when directed at everyone equally is good fun for the whole family? :smallconfused:

I'm no authority on humour or anything, but I'm led to believe through a combination of context, smiley application, and general intuition that Heliomance was joking.

[golentan]

I'm no authority on humour or anything, but I'm led to believe through a combination of context, smiley application, and general intuition that Heliomance was joking.

Shhh... most good jokes need a straight man. And since they're in short supply in this thread, I had to fake it...

[SiuiS]

Because the issue with patriarchy is that the inequality is awful, but the oppression when directed at everyone equally is good fun for the whole family? :smallconfused:

Yes, actually! That level of discrimination moves from sexist to lovable grump~

[golentan]

Yes, actually! That level of discrimination moves from sexist to lovable grump~

In the words of Gaiman and Pratchett...


Shadwell hated all southerners and, by inference, was standing at the North Pole... [Shadwell] was racist in such a glowering undirected way that it was quite inoffensive; it was simply that Shadwell hated everyone in the world regardless of caste, colour or creed, and wasn’t going to make exceptions for anyone.

[Comrade]

It's called not permanent hair removal but rather hair reduction since it won't get rid of 100% of the hairs. (or at least not without a completely unreasonable number of sessions) Hair follicles are also tough and sometimes regenerate again between sessions. Not to mention that hair grows in cycles too. I've only had three sessions so far and I've had a pretty significant reduction already.

Oh, the thing I seem to remember though is that while you have high T-levels laser will be less effective cause there could still be new hair follicles appearing, undoing progress. (Which is why it's generally advised to wait until starting HRT) I'm not sure if the same is true for electrolisis though. It's probably best to just contact a few people about it and ask.

... my antipathy at the prospect of somebody sticking needles into places like my throat and face and then sending electric shocks through them is such that opting for a completely unreasonable number of laser sessions honestly seems like the preferable recourse :v Seriously, my pain threshold is miserable-- at least when it comes to sharp, flaring sorts of pain. You know, like somebody sticking needles into places like my throat and face and sending electric shocks through them.

On the subject of HRT and electrolysis: apparently (from what I've gleaned from a cursory internet search) it's easier and takes less 'zaps' to properly inhibit regrowth when you've already started HRT, so I guess on that front it's the same for both laser and electrolysis.

[Coidzor]

This may be of interest (http://fromonesurvivortoanother.tumblr.com/post/88776688035/common-misconceptions-about-trigger-warnings). It discusses Trigger Warnings and rebuts arguments against using them.

[Astrella]

... my antipathy at the prospect of somebody sticking needles into places like my throat and face and then sending electric shocks through them is such that opting for a completely unreasonable number of laser sessions honestly seems like the preferable recourse :v Seriously, my pain threshold is miserable-- at least when it comes to sharp, flaring sorts of pain. You know, like somebody sticking needles into places like my throat and face and sending electric shocks through them.

I haven't done electrolysis, but I've found laser to be very manageable with the numbing cream I got prescribed and I am really sensitive to pain.

[Lex-Kat]

So I've been looking into methods of permanent hair removal... and ****ing hell is it daunting.

Apparently, the two prime choices currently available are laser removal, which is costly and seems to come with the significant possibility that even with repeated sessions it won't permanently remove the hair, and electrolysis, which appears to have originated as an ancient Chinese torture method. And considering how much hair I have in sensitive places around my face like my throat, electrolysis seems just that much more excruciating. But it's cheaper and guarantees permanent removal of the hairs... ;_;
Just my 3 cents...

Electrolysis didn't work for me. Maybe I wasn't patient enough. Perhaps the technician didn't do a very good job. All I can be sure of is that it was painful, and after a year (12 treatments), I didn't see any difference. And it was costing me $60 for an hour of torture.

I tried Laser Hair Reduction, done by a professional. And though I saw some reduction, I stopped going because they were having computer problems, and they couldn't schedule an appointment for about a week. And when I was suppose to call back, to schedule an I forgot to do so. By the time I remembered, it'd been about a year, and I just let it go.

Now I'm using a Tria Laser at home, and after just 3 sessions, I can already see a difference. Here are couple links to, what looks to be, independent sites that may help you decide. Hair Removal Journal.org- 7 Myths (http://www.hairremovaljournal.org/myths/) (Talks about 7 myths of Hair Removal) & About.com Hair Removal (http://hairremoval.about.com/od/laser/a/tria-laserhair.htm) (6 part editorial from Naomi Torres on her use of the Tria Laser, which covers all the way to a year after her last treatment). Both these sites also have links to other editorials that you can investigate.

Hope this helps. :smallsmile:

[Comrade]

Hope this helps. :smallsmile:

It definitely does! It's comforting to know such good results can be achieved with a laser (and one used at home, at that), because I really was not looking forward to the prospect of getting repeatedly shanked and shocked in the face and throat... to say nothing of the hair elsewhere. That thing's not cheap, but it sure as hell seems like it's worth the price tag!

[Miriel]

On the subject of HRT and electrolysis: apparently (from what I've gleaned from a cursory internet search) it's easier and takes less 'zaps' to properly inhibit regrowth when you've already started HRT, so I guess on that front it's the same for both laser and electrolysis.
While that is true, another point of view is to start ASAP, because hormones or no, it will be a long process. If you can start facial hair removal before being full-time, you won't have to live with the discrimination and harassment, yet your transition will be on its way. Living as a woman with facial hair is very unpleasant.

The third (mine) is to do what you can with watever finances you have. I started laser several weeks after getting HRT because that's when my grandmother agreed to pay for it. I wouldn've sarted in November if my parents had done the same.

[Comrade]

While that is true, another point of view is to start ASAP, because hormones or no, it will be a long process. If you can start facial hair removal before being full-time, you won't have to live with the discrimination and harassment, yet your transition will be on its way. Living as a woman with facial hair is very unpleasant.

Yep. I definitely intend to start looking into my options with that as soon as possible-- it seems like that Tria laser is a great investment, as it's easy to use and cheaper in the long run, but then again the extra cost of professional work might be worth having it done by somebody who actually knows what they're doing. But as soon as possible is definitely my plan!

[Heliomance]

I'm doing IPL at the moment. I've had about 13 sessions so far, each 5-10 minutes long, and I'm noticing definite patchiness. Pain isn't too bad - it stings a bit, and makes me do a whole body flinch with each zap, but it's bearable. It's costing me £99 for every six sessions, and the technician thinks I'll probably need about 24 to get rid of it all. I'm dubious, I think it may need more, but it is going.

[KerfuffleMach2]

I have given any hypothetical daughter blanket permission to kick me in the nethers if I threaten someone she dates like the iconic stereotypical dad. I've put a couple of friends in charge of enforcing this should I backpedal.

I think part of the reason I hate that whole thing is the anti-feminist double standard that boys are supposed to go forth and conquer and girls need to be protected from anything sexual. How the hell are they supposed to find mr/ms right if I chase everyone they bring home out of the house? And yeah, I hope their dating goes well, but I can't shelter them from the hazards of it and still expect them to grow into a healthy adult capable of recognizing and holding onto a healthy relationship. Is it so bad that I want my hypothetical kids to wait until they're ready and have someone worth having sex with, but when that happens I hope they have a lot of (safe, sane, and consensual) fun? I'd rather they have sex safely with someone or under circumstances which I disapprove than sneak behind my back and have unsafe sex because they're afraid I'll find their birth control and attack their date... (I knew a girl that happened to in high school... Her dad beat up her boyfriend when he found their condoms so she stopped using birth control, and wound up pregnant senior year).

Plus, it always seemed kinda creepy. It often comes off as sexual jealousy. A reverse oedipal complex. :smallyuk:

See, with my possible future children, I'm just gonna try to embarrass them when I can. Because it's funny. And, sometimes, actually makes them look better.


Shhh... most good jokes need a straight man. And since they're in short supply in this thread, I had to fake it...

Hey, we got at least one here.

[Philemonite]

Hey, we got at least one here.

We have Matthew for that, our token cis-straight guy.:smallbiggrin:

[Kesnit]

I have given any hypothetical daughter blanket permission to kick me in the nethers if I threaten someone she dates like the iconic stereotypical dad. I've put a couple of friends in charge of enforcing this should I backpedal.

I think part of the reason I hate that whole thing is the anti-feminist double standard that boys are supposed to go forth and conquer and girls need to be protected from anything sexual. How the hell are they supposed to find mr/ms right if I chase everyone they bring home out of the house?

You could always do what my brother-in-law did when I started dating my wife. (My b-i-l is 6'1"/185cm and built like an American football linebacker.) He looked at me and said "if you hurt my sister, I'll kill you." That way, you aren't really intimidating/scaring the guys off. They know they are safe as long as they don't hurt your daughter.


See, with my possible future children, I'm just gonna try to embarrass them when I can. Because it's funny. And, sometimes, actually makes them look better.

My mother-in-law did that. Not long after my wife and I started dating, her parents invited me over for dinner. Her mother broke out the baby pictures. (I'd met her parents a few times before this visit, but it was the first time I'd been to their house.)

[Athedia]

My mom breaks out the "checklist". It is kind of amusing to watch at times even if embarrassing.

[bladequeen420]

Are at home laser treatments any good

[Comrade]

According to this link (http://hairremoval.about.com/od/laser/a/tria-laserhair.htm) Lex-Kat posted up above, they seem to be pretty damn effective.

[Zorg]

To the boys who may one day date my daughter:


http://youtu.be/KcIwZ1Dth0c

[Miriel]

Through a new trans friend, I'm back in the roleplaying world. Made myself a trans girl elf bard in Pathfinder ^^ She's stealth, so no one but me knows she's trans :smallsmile: (Gave her super high stealth, bluff and disguise ranks, stuff like that. The "Deceitful" feat felt like a poor choice of word, though...)

Anyway. Personal, private stuff ahead.

I'm really looking forward for SRS, and I basically can't wait to get it done -- the sooner, the better. I should have both my reference letters, + medical evaluation and endo letter by mid July. I need a year full-time, so that'd be in November.

However, I'm worried about timing because of convalescence (10 days, according to the documentation) and post-op recovery. I'm starting my master's program soon. Normally, school involves reading, moving around with a computer, pens and paper, reading material, etc., and obviously having a decent level of concentration and motivation.

I'd be ready to take a short sabbatical in the Fall semester if needed, or perhaps make special arrangements with my professors, but I can't in the Winter because my advisor is giving his seminar. In the summer, I'm planning a 2-month trip (perhaps longer) to Europe to work on my research, so if I don't do it in November/December, well... it won't be before August or September next year.

I would like to know how much time off should I take between surgery and going back to my normal state of activity.
1) Is it realistic to do the surgery in early/mid December and start school again in early January? (This would mean I could keep my Fall semester.)
2) How long should I expect to be out of the picture academically?
3) Is there anything I haven't thought about?

[Comrade]

Nice! Yeah, I can see why given the context a feat called 'Deceitful' might be a bit... uh, unfortunate.

Anyway. This has been getting at me, so forgive a brief delve into unrelated things, but...

Am I the only person sick outta my mind of the 'women in video games cost too much!' argument? I just saw this argument broached yet again and I can't believe some people honestly, actually espouse it. I just can't make sense of it-- how can people just sit behind their computers and say it's more important to cut costs just a tad bit than it is to stop excluding female characters from ninety per cent of mainstream video games? When will people stop looking at female characters as just another box somewhere far down the checklist to maybe check off, just maybe, if those darn politically correct feminazis make enough of a big deal about it?

And then they ask 'Why can't you just be happy you're getting another game instead of trying to find a reason to whine?' Ugh. Why.

[Mina Kobold]

Anyway. This has been getting at me, so forgive a brief delve into unrelated things, but...

Am I the only person sick outta my mind of the 'women in video games cost too much!' argument? I just saw this argument broached yet again and I can't believe some people honestly, actually espouse it. I just can't make sense of it-- how can people just sit behind their computers and say it's more important to cut costs just a tad bit than it is to stop excluding female characters from ninety per cent of mainstream video games? When will people stop looking at female characters as just another box somewhere far down the checklist to maybe check off, just maybe, if those darn politically correct feminazis make enough of a big deal about it?

And then they ask 'Why can't you just be happy you're getting another game instead of trying to find a reason to whine?' Ugh. Why.

It's an argument that irks me a lot, yes. I actually ended up writing several paragraphs, almost an entire essay, in a comment on an article to explain why it's nonsensical. The very idea that women are some extra add-on feature, that GRSM people only need to exist if we absolutely have to, that people of colour are optional at best, and so on, is just plain creepy. The way things default to a very narrow type of character is deeply problematic, and has gotten so very painfully obvious (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85M3LnoHz6o). Even if it was so difficult to add a woman, it shouldn't be the case that it's many many times more likely that a woman has to be an add-on, an extra, in a game with plenty of men. It never seems to be the case that men cost too much, that cis people weren't included due to budget or that there wasn't time to add straight romance. Always the normative option first, then maybe the rest of us can play too. >_<

One thing that's a bit uplifting, even if it reveals that Ubisoft is being facepalm-inducing, is that even the people working for them are calling them out (http://www.themarysue.com/ubisoft-called-out/) (warning, the article uses an ableist insult at one point, unfortunately ;_;)

Hopefully it'll soon be so ridiculous to claim that it's too difficult to have women in games that they have to acknowledge that they don't have an excuse, even if it's really terrible that it's still taken seriously at this point. >_<

[Comrade]

Oh god, the comments on that youtube video ;_; why did I even bother looking

But the second link was a welcome, refreshing, and incredibly heartening read after that dismal delve into the wretched pits of youtube comment sections! "#womenaretoohardtoanimate meanwhile let's create a whole new physics engine to make water more realistic". I loved that.

[Jaycemonde]

I think the guy who created infectious zombie hordes and threw them at a city counts as a villain, yeah, even if he was out of his league :smallwink:

The lowest qualifying point on the Villain-O-Meter goes to Professor Nakayama.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TohHEC4YDEQ

So anything more competent than that can't be too bad!


"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain"

My dad had that and other Dune quotes all over the house. Literally. On pieces of paper taped to things.


"#womenaretoohardtoanimate meanwhile let's create a whole new physics engine to make water more realistic". I loved that.

Yeah, Ubisoft (and Pixar) are pretty full of horse droppings. It's good that so many other studios are calling them out on it on a professional level.

[Lix Lorn]

Yes, actually! That level of discrimination moves from sexist to lovable grump~


In the words of Gaiman and Pratchett...
...the funny thing is that when you posted that, I was probably reading that book.


The lowest qualifying point on the Villain-O-Meter goes to Professor Nakayama.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TohHEC4YDEQ

So anything more competent than that can't be too bad!
(Snrks)
Joy: It was nothing personal! We just wanted your gold is all.

[KerfuffleMach2]

We have Matthew for that, our token cis-straight guy.:smallbiggrin:

Since when was I Matthew?


My mother-in-law did that. Not long after my wife and I started dating, her parents invited me over for dinner. Her mother broke out the baby pictures. (I'd met her parents a few times before this visit, but it was the first time I'd been to their house.)

At the Senior Awards Banquet in my high school, they had a karaoke machine present.

My mom thought it'd be fun to use it. Before she starts the song, she makes sure to announce to everybody that she is my mom. She then sings "I Love Rock n' Roll" by Joan Jett, her karaoke standard.

Afterwards, everybody thought she was awesome.

[noparlpf]

Does anybody know how good Assassin's Creed 3: Liberation was? It's the only one with a female protagonist, apparently.

[Miriel]

I told my parents I wanted surgery. Nothing too bad happened, but they took it as a shock. My father didn't say anything, but he seemed to take it badly.

[Arachu]

So, my mom seems to finally be mostly accepting give or take of my identity even if she still doesn't use the right name or pronouns very often at all. On the one hand, it's awesome that she made so much progress but on the other she's moved on to 'cautioning' me against being poly (based on the false assumption that it's just sex with whoever and another assumption that that's a bad thing) and getting SRS (citing how they discard testicles as being a problem, even though I'm the one that told her about that). Our conversations are like sitcom dialogue or something, it's actually pretty silly. :smalltongue:


I told my parents I wanted surgery. Nothing too bad happened, but they took it as a shock. My father didn't say anything, but he seemed to take it badly.

*Hugs close* I hope stuff goes alright.


~Bianca

[Comrade]

I told my parents I wanted surgery. Nothing too bad happened, but they took it as a shock. My father didn't say anything, but he seemed to take it badly.

I'm glad the immediate reaction seems to have been none too catastrophic, but I hope it goes well from there!

[Miriel]

I did a transition timeline. (http://dolcissimafragola.tumblr.com/post/88917225428/my-transition-timeline-full-time-for-seven) Click on the images for the description.


*Hugs close* I hope stuff goes alright.
Thanks.

Sorry about your parents stuff... *hugs back*

[Arachu]

I did a transition timeline. (http://dolcissimafragola.tumblr.com/post/88917225428/my-transition-timeline-full-time-for-seven) Click on the images for the description.

You're pretty! ^_^


Sorry about your parents stuff... *hugs back*

*Snuggles* They are getting better, even if it's taking a while. Plus, every time they do stuff like that it gives me a chance to stand up for myself and feel all strong and whatnot. X3


~Bianca

[KerfuffleMach2]

I told my parents I wanted surgery. Nothing too bad happened, but they took it as a shock. My father didn't say anything, but he seemed to take it badly.

Just give him some time. I'm sure it's at least somewhat of a shock/surprise to him, and he needs time to digest this new info.

I see the fact that he didn't say anything as a good sign. Not the best sign, but a good one.

[Philemonite]

Since when was I Matthew?

I guess we have two now. That means Matthew is no longer special.:smallconfused::smalltongue::smallamused:


I did a transition timeline. (http://dolcissimafragola.tumblr.com/post/88917225428/my-transition-timeline-full-time-for-seven) Click on the images for the description.

I remember that first picture. You were cute then (in a nervous kinda way), but now you'we gotten way prettier.:smallbiggrin:

[Miriel]

You're pretty! ^_^

:smallredface:


I remember that first picture. You were cute then (in a nervous kinda way), but now you'we gotten way prettier.:smallbiggrin:
:smallredface: That's what I think too.

[KerfuffleMach2]

I guess we have two now. That means Matthew is no longer special.:smallconfused::smalltongue::smallamused:

Well, not for being the only one, at least. He can still claim to be the first.

[Jormengand]

Well, not for being the only one, at least. He can still claim to be the first.

And I know we're not the only ones,
And we were not the first,
But unapologetically
We'll stand behind each word....

*Ahem.* Sorry about that. :smalltongue:

[Irish Musician]

We have Matthew for that, our token cis-straight guy.:smallbiggrin:
*waves*

Shhh... most good jokes need a straight man. And since they're in short supply in this thread, I had to fake it...
You rang?

You could always go equal opportunities by threatening the girls your hypothetical son brings home too :smallbiggrin:
In Texas, we should polish our shotguns in front of potential dates for our daughters.....ya know, just because :smallamused:

Well, not for being the only one, at least. He can still claim to be the first.
I wouldn't say the first, I don't think. But one of the only in the past while to be sticking around.....in spirit at least. Grown quiet lately, giving space to my LBGTA+ brothers and sisters, but always sitting in the corner watching the conversation move along. :smallsmile:

M

[Serpentine]

I did a transition timeline. (http://dolcissimafragola.tumblr.com/post/88917225428/my-transition-timeline-full-time-for-seven) Click on the images for the description.Not quite sure why, but I find the second last one extra-cute. I think you look good with your hair up.

[golentan]

Man I wish I knew where I could go to meet people.

[Miriel]

Not quite sure why, but I find the second last one extra-cute. I think you look good with your hair up.

Thanks! I think it looks good too, but I was never able to get the same result. Luck was involved, I think.

[Lentrax]

Man I wish I knew where I could go to meet people.

To do that, you must leave and go inside the Asylum. Nice place at some points, but mostly full of sick minded people who are unsure of their place in reality.

[LokiRagnarok]

sick minded people who are unsure of their place in reality.

Aren't we all? :D

[SiuiS]

Phoenix, an off-topic question if I may?

How would one go about finding an actual taiqijuan class, and not just trumped up qigong? Everyone knows there was a split but no one wants to admit to teaching just qigong.

[Miriel]

I have a date :smallsmile:

[Ifni]

I have a date :smallsmile:

Congratulations, Caroline! Hope it goes well.

[KerfuffleMach2]

I did a transition timeline. (http://dolcissimafragola.tumblr.com/post/88917225428/my-transition-timeline-full-time-for-seven) Click on the images for the description.

Every picture makes me think you're scared of the camera. Strike a pose! Get silly with it!


Man I wish I knew where I could go to meet people.

Me too.


I have a date :smallsmile:

Awesome! Hope it goes well for ya.

[golentan]

I have a date :smallsmile:

Congrats!

Dish! Give us salacious details!

[Miriel]

Thanks people :smallsmile:

Congrats!

Dish! Give us salacious details!
It's a trans girl I met over the Internet and who invited me to her gaming group. We talked for hours in her car, so apparently it clicks.

She's very nice, and she apparently finds me very pretty :smallsmile: :smallredface:


Every picture makes me think you're scared of the camera. Strike a pose! Get silly with it!

Haha, but I am scared! :smallredface: I'm better at being cute than at being silly.

[Coidzor]

I have a date :smallsmile:

Sweet. A date and gaming. That'll be fun. :smallbiggrin:

[golentan]

Thanks people :smallsmile:

It's a trans girl I met over the Internet and who invited me to her gaming group. We talked for hours in her car, so apparently it clicks.

She's very nice, and she apparently finds me very pretty :smallsmile: :smallredface:

SQUEEEEEEE! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Gamer girls are the best! I hope it works out for you!

[Miriel]

SQUEEEEEEE! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Gamer girls are the best! I hope it works out for you!

Squee indeed :smallbiggrin:

And it's a gamer trans girl! Only trans girls will listen to me ranting about SRS for hours ^^

[Eldest]

Hooray for dates! I don't get enough of those, even thought I somehow ended up with in a FWB situation with a guy I was very into in high school. But that is certainly not dating.

[SiuiS]

I have a date :smallsmile:

Woo!
Glad things are up and upping for you!

[Mina Kobold]

I have a date :smallsmile:

Congratulations! Hope it goes super-duper amazingly well. ^_^

On a related note: Why wouldn't one be scared of cameras? They're frightening and capture you on pictures that you can't escape from. ._.

[Lex-Kat]

I have a date :smallsmile:
Awesome! Best wishes. :smallsmile:

On a related note: Why wouldn't one be scared of cameras? They're frightening and capture you on pictures that you can't escape from. ._.
I agree. Cameras are evil. I even hear they suck out your soul and hold it hostage in their evil realm, forever. :smalleek:

[Kesnit]

Thanks people :smallsmile:

It's a trans girl I met over the Internet and who invited me to her gaming group. We talked for hours in her car, so apparently it clicks.

She's very nice, and she apparently finds me very pretty :smallsmile: :smallredface:

Congrats! Hope it goes well.

[Heliomance]

Mrr. Just had snarky friend gushing about her boyfriend to me. On the one hand, it's totally adorable. On the other, damn her for being straight!

so lonely

[Athedia]

Squee indeed :smallbiggrin:

And it's a gamer trans girl! Only trans girls will listen to me ranting about SRS for hours ^^

If you bribe me with food I will listen.

[Irish Musician]

Squee indeed :smallbiggrin:

And it's a gamer trans girl! Only trans girls will listen to me ranting about SRS for hours ^^
Go get her girl! Congrats :smallbiggrin:

Mrr. Just had snarky friend gushing about her boyfriend to me. On the one hand, it's totally adorable. On the other, damn her for being straight!
I have mixed feelings for you, dear. Both happy and sad.....but mostly hugs.

M

[golentan]

Mrr. Just had snarky friend gushing about her boyfriend to me. On the one hand, it's totally adorable. On the other, damn her for being straight!

so lonely

I would offer cuddles if you would accept them.

[Jaycemonde]

{scrubbed}
Anyway, what all is up in this place? I've been playing Planetside a lot. Tried to do some art, didn't go too well, BUT I did get a sketch from someone really awesome!
http://38.media.tumblr.com/89d02e48b33d4fca628f873473238631/tumblr_n78loxTQ8T1qkgxqwo1_1280.png
Credit to Birdologist (http://birdologist.tumblr.com/), who is also FtM (and nonbinary)!

[Arachu]

I have a date :smallsmile:

Yay. :smallbiggrin:


Mrr. Just had snarky friend gushing about her boyfriend to me. On the one hand, it's totally adorable. On the other, damn her for being straight!

so lonely

*Gives big hug*


{scrubbed}

*Doesn't wanna insult anybody, but does think that the thread itself is taking off quite smoothly with several pages devoted to asexuality and misconceptions about it*


Anyway, what all is up in this place? I've been playing Planetside a lot. Tried to do some art, didn't go too well, BUT I did get a sketch from someone really awesome!
http://38.media.tumblr.com/89d02e48b33d4fca628f873473238631/tumblr_n78loxTQ8T1qkgxqwo1_1280.png
Credit to Birdologist (http://birdologist.tumblr.com/), who is also FtM (and nonbinary)!

Neat~ ^_^


~Bianca

[Athedia]

Wait what thread? Where is it? Can I see? Can I see?

[Jormengand]

Wait what thread? Where is it? Can I see? Can I see?

Boop. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?356522-LGBTAI-Questions-Information-and-Discussion-thread!) Here you go.

[Philemonite]

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?356522-LGBTAI-Questions-Information-and-Discussion-thread!):smallwink:

[Athedia]

I opened both links just because! Thanks both of you!

[Philemonite]

I opened both links just because! Thanks both of you!

You're welcome.:smallwink:

Jayce, could you add the link to to new discussion thread to the OP? You might add it next to the arts and crafts thread.

[Heliomance]

I would offer cuddles if you would accept them.

Cuddles gratefully accepted :)

I really want to find a girlfriend. The dating pool as a trans lesbian is kinda tiny, though :/

Oh well, I'm starting a new job next week. Maybe I'll hit it off with someone there!

[Philemonite]

Cuddles gratefully accepted :)

I really want to find a girlfriend. The dating pool as a trans lesbian is kinda tiny, though :/

Oh well, I'm starting a new job next week. Maybe I'll hit it off with someone there!

Well, I'm not trans, and I'm not lesbian, but I can definitely relate. It's really hard to find someone for a serious relationship when you are deep in the closet and there is no option to come out. At least not one that will not severely endanger my safety.:smallfrown:

[golentan]

Preaching to the choir on the difficulty of finding dates. Though I'm REALLY good at getting rejected.

[Jaycemonde]

Jayce, could you add the link to to new discussion thread to the OP? You might add it next to the arts and crafts thread.

Added. It's directly under the Welcome portion, for convenience.

[SiuiS]

Hidden blessings!



Yeah... Oy. That's a train wreck. The guy already blocked half the people responding to him for being so mean to him and insisting that scientific evidence is more accurate than a sense of squick.

Ah well. No need to fuel the fire yes? I'll behave.

[Jaycemonde]

Yeah, let's talk about something else. Maybe space armies with sensible armor? I get hopelessly obsessed with talking about things I'm into regardless of their relevance I'm sorry

[SiuiS]

Pffffffff-hahahahaha!

Who would build those?! You're being silly~

[Comrade]

Next you'll tell me a set of armour's effectiveness isn't actually determined by how cool it looks!

Also, random unrelated bit of complaining borne of a momentary loss of temper:

I really, really, really ****ing hate when the staff of a website seems to expect you to grovel at their feet because apparently they're under the impression their website is the greatest thing you'll ever have the privilege of witnessing. Y'know, staff who hold themselves to a completely different standard of behaviour than the members and can't stand it when some rank-and-file peasant of a member calls them out on it. And you can't really do anything when they taunt and bait you, because if you let it get to you, all they're gonna do is pounce on it as an excuse to ban your ass. Which, as someone who's more prideful than I'd like to be, is just the bane of my existence. I mean, you'd think puerile **** like baiting and taunting the members of your site isn't the kind of thing you want people on your staff doing.

[Jaycemonde]

Pffffffff-hahahahaha!

Who would build those?! You're being silly~

http://i.imgur.com/MIheLLM.png

[Miriel]

Also, random unrelated bit of complaining borne of a momentary loss of temper:

I really, really, really ****ing hate when the staff of a website seems to expect you to grovel at their feet because apparently they're under the impression their website is the greatest thing you'll ever have the privilege of witnessing. Y'know, staff who hold themselves to a completely different standard of behaviour than the members and can't stand it when some rank-and-file peasant of a member calls them out on it. And you can't really do anything when they taunt and bait you, because if you let it get to you, all they're gonna do is pounce on it as an excuse to ban your ass. Which, as someone who's more prideful than I'd like to be, is just the bane of my existence. I mean, you'd think puerile **** like baiting and taunting the members of your site isn't the kind of thing you want people on your staff doing.

What happened?

[Comrade]

Someone on a particular site posted something in which they referred to people on welfare as 'lazy ass bums'. Somebody, very rightly, took offence to that and responded as such; a moment later, an admin showed up and said there was nothing in particular wrong with the remark, "so take a breath, _____". I said "What a condescending way to respond to a perfectly valid complaint", and they just went full douche mode on me, culminating in threatening to ban me for 'prior offences'. Oddly enough, these offences only became relevant the second I had the tremendous gall to suggest that just maybe a staff member wasn't infallible.

Frankly, I'd be compelled to say this particular admin's got it out for me, but they've brought this sort of attitude to other people in the past, so it's definitely not just me :v

[KerfuffleMach2]

Well, I'm not trans, and I'm not lesbian, but I can definitely relate. It's really hard to find someone for a serious relationship when you are deep in the closet and there is no option to come out. At least not one that will not severely endanger my safety.:smallfrown:

Pft, it's hard no matter what.


Someone on a particular site posted something in which they referred to people on welfare as 'lazy ass bums'. Somebody, very rightly, took offence to that and responded as such; a moment later, an admin showed up and said there was nothing in particular wrong with the remark, "so take a breath, _____". I said "What a condescending way to respond to a perfectly valid complaint", and they just went full douche mode on me, culminating in threatening to ban me for 'prior offences'. Oddly enough, these offences only became relevant the second I had the tremendous gall to suggest that just maybe a staff member wasn't infallible.

Frankly, I'd be compelled to say this particular admin's got it out for me, but they've brought this sort of attitude to other people in the past, so it's definitely not just me :v

When in doubt, set them on fire.

Probably won't solve the problem at all, but it should make you feel better.

[Comrade]

When in doubt, set them on fire.

Probably won't solve the problem at all, but it should make you feel better.

Unfortunately, it's exceptionally difficult to set people on fire over the internet. Pretending I can is certainly therapeutic though!

[KerfuffleMach2]

Unfortunately, it's exceptionally difficult to set people on fire over the internet. Pretending I can is certainly therapeutic though!

Yay imagination!

Also, slightly related, as a member of a family receiving food stamps, I probably would've verbally assaulted that guy quite hard.

[SiuiS]

http://i.imgur.com/MIheLLM.png

Oh, hot.


Unfortunately, it's exceptionally difficult to set people on fire over the internet. Pretending I can is certainly therapeutic though!

"I can't set you on fire with the power of my mind. But I can set you on fire with the power of kerosene! So shut the hell up."

[noparlpf]

Someone on a particular site posted something in which they referred to people on welfare as 'lazy ass bums'. Somebody, very rightly, took offence to that and responded as such; a moment later, an admin showed up and said there was nothing in particular wrong with the remark, "so take a breath, _____". I said "What a condescending way to respond to a perfectly valid complaint", and they just went full douche mode on me, culminating in threatening to ban me for 'prior offences'. Oddly enough, these offences only became relevant the second I had the tremendous gall to suggest that just maybe a staff member wasn't infallible.

Frankly, I'd be compelled to say this particular admin's got it out for me, but they've brought this sort of attitude to other people in the past, so it's definitely not just me :v

Ew. What site/why do you still go there? Do you at least have AdBlock set to prevent them from getting any ad revenue from your presence?

[Heliomance]

Is it weird that one of the things I worry about is not getting boobs until I'm too old to dress revealingly?

[Serpentine]

Is it weird that one of the things I worry about is not getting boobs until I'm too old to dress revealingly?Go wear all the pretty revealing dresses I growl at because they don't fit my (or seemingly any) boobs.

[SMEE]

Is it weird that one of the things I worry about is not getting boobs until I'm too old to dress revealingly?

Well, 7 years in HRT and I haven't grown pretty much any boobs.
Still, I dress revealingly when I deem that the situation calls for it. So dress away and have fun!

[Heliomance]

Well, 7 years in HRT and I haven't grown pretty much any boobs.
Still, I dress revealingly when I deem that the situation calls for it. So dress away and have fun!

As I recall, you have enough boobage that you can pass as the somewhat flat chested woman that you are. Low necklines are a bit harder when they'd reveal breast forms :smalltongue:

[Astrella]

Slightly embarrassing question for trans women and other amab people on HRT: Have you noticed that your bits started smelling differently / stronger and also be slightly more moist than before? (the glans that is)

[Miriel]

Slightly embarrassing question for trans women and other amab people on HRT: Have you noticed that your bits started smelling differently / stronger and also be slightly more moist than before? (the glans that is)
My sense of smell is horrible, and I haven't noticed if they have gotten moist, but a few times, there was some liquid coming out.

[Miriel]

New article on the trans stuff... in the Middle Ages (http://lucreziacontarini.com/2014/06/18/gender-transition-in-the-middle-ages/)!

Should I post these here or in the other thread?

Sorry for double-posting.

[Ravens_cry]

I was at my grandmother's funeral the day before yesterday and I thought with a firm certainty, "This is the last time I am wearing a suit." There was something very affirming about that thought.

[Athedia]

I was at my grandmother's funeral the day before yesterday and I thought with a firm certainty, "This is the last time I am wearing a suit." There was something very affirming about that thought.

Sorry about your grandmother. But I am glad you had a good thought.

[Comrade]

Ew. What site/why do you still go there?
It's a particular roleplay site I frequent. I woulda liked to indulge in a bit of admittedly juvenile retaliation and prove just how much of a 'privilege' it is to be on that site by bailing on it then and there (maybe with the classic "**** you, **** you, **** you, you're cool, **** you, I'm out!'), but that really wouldn't have accomplished much, and I have commitments on that site that aren't worth dropping on purely for my own pride.


New article on the trans stuff... in the Middle Ages (http://lucreziacontarini.com/2014/06/18/gender-transition-in-the-middle-ages/)!

As usual, it's an enlightening and interesting read!

[Irish Musician]

As usual, it's an enlightening and interesting read!
Seconded, that was a very interesting take on things. :smallsmile:

I was at my grandmother's funeral the day before yesterday and I thought with a firm certainty, "This is the last time I am wearing a suit." There was something very affirming about that thought.
I am sorry for your grandmother, but the silver lining congrats on the decision.

[Lex-Kat]

New article on the trans stuff... in the Middle Ages (http://lucreziacontarini.com/2014/06/18/gender-transition-in-the-middle-ages/)!

Should I post these here or in the other thread?

Sorry for double-posting.
Love the article.

Selfishly I must ask that, if you must choose between one or the other, you choose to post them here. I don't see myself frequenting the other thread as often.

[KerfuffleMach2]

New article on the trans stuff... in the Middle Ages (http://lucreziacontarini.com/2014/06/18/gender-transition-in-the-middle-ages/)!

Should I post these here or in the other thread?

Sorry for double-posting.

Probably should keep them here. Unless you're using them to answer a question asked over there.

[Jaycemonde]

New article on the trans stuff... in the Middle Ages (http://lucreziacontarini.com/2014/06/18/gender-transition-in-the-middle-ages/)!

Should I post these here or in the other thread?

Sorry for double-posting.

{scrubbed}

[Heliomance]

{scrubbed the original, scrub the quote}

{scrubbed}

[Jaycemonde]

{scrubbed}

{scrubbed}

[Lex-Kat]

:smalleek:

[Jaycemonde]

Yeah, it's confusing and frightening to me too. I have no idea what I did.
Anyway, uh. I still think Caroline [I remembered her name!] should post the articles on both threads. It'd benefit everyone that way.
Here's hoping I'm still allowed to post.

[Comrade]

Well, I'm not sure what all just went on, but...

Say, does anybody know of any good artists who happen to be particularly kindly-- er, which is to say, like to draw things for people too poor to pay them for it? I find myself with a bad combination of having a character I'd really like illustrated, having roughly the artistic merit of a mossy boulder, and being unable to pay anybody to do it for me.

I know it probably makes me come off incredibly selfish and demanding, but I figure it's worth it just in case there's one person out there who might be willing. :v

[Jaycemonde]

I take requests :>
Can't guarantee when it'll get done, but with classes over I have a lot more time on my hands.

[Comrade]

I couldn't send you a PM because your inbox is full, but the basic gist of what I was going to send was more or less along the lines of 'from what I've seen you're an awesome artist and I would be most honoured if you were up to do this request' :smalltongue:

[Jaycemonde]

I have to clean that thing out, I guess. I wish it was bigger. Resend in a moment?

EDIT: also thanks asdfasdf I didn't see the compliment on the first pass

[Miriel]

Thanks everyone :smallsmile: But I didn't think medieval studies were so controversial :smalleek:


Anyway, uh. I still think Caroline [I remembered her name!] should post the articles on both threads. It'd benefit everyone that way.
My first name is in my signature :smalltongue:

Both thread = more publicity. But I don't know... it feels too... something.

---

I learned today I needed six appointments with my primary therapist for surgery. Stupid gatekeeping requirements. But at least I can lie about the full-time requirement. And hey, it motivated me to actually call the sexologist who recommended that I take hormones. I booked two of the three appointments I will need.

[Mystic Muse]

Both thread = more publicity. But I don't know... it feels too... something.


Kind of like you're being an attention *****?

That's not what's happening at all, but I seem to have a bit of a knack for coming up with phrases people are looking for.

There's not much reason at all not to post them in both places. :smallsmile:

[Ravens_cry]

Well, I'm not sure what all just went on, but...

Say, does anybody know of any good artists who happen to be particularly kindly-- er, which is to say, like to draw things for people too poor to pay them for it? I find myself with a bad combination of having a character I'd really like illustrated, having roughly the artistic merit of a mossy boulder, and being unable to pay anybody to do it for me.

I know it probably makes me come off incredibly selfish and demanding, but I figure it's worth it just in case there's one person out there who might be willing. :v
I am building up a portfolio of work I've done for other people, so, yes, I am willing to do things for free.

[Kesnit]

I was at my grandmother's funeral the day before yesterday and I thought with a firm certainty, "This is the last time I am wearing a suit." There was something very affirming about that thought.

I did something similar at my grandmother's funeral 5 years ago. My mother asked that I go as female, which I did. I hated it, but I knew going as male would raise a lot of questions and take emphasis off my grandmother and put it on me.

[Philemonite]

Hooray for gay marriage in Luxembourg!!!!!!:smallbiggrin:

[Karen Lynn]

Slightly embarrassing question for trans women and other amab people on HRT: Have you noticed that your bits started smelling differently / stronger and also be slightly more moist than before? (the glans that is)

Yes. Gods, I thought I was the only one who could smell that. Everything smells different on my body already, especially underboob.

[golentan]

Yes. Gods, I thought I was the only one who could smell that. Everything smells different on my body already, especially underboob.

I have low testosterone and I've noticed that my bits smell different from other men's bits, though I'm not sure it's exactly an answer to the question asked.

[BladeofObliviom]

This is a few days old, but I haven't seen it here yet so I thought I'd share. (http://www.queerty.com/12-year-old-transgender-boy-granted-historic-new-birth-certificate-20140617?utm_source=bb82&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=birthcertificate)

EDIT: Oh, and as always you should probably avoid the comments. Several are supportive, but there are a few stinkers mixed in.

[Jaycemonde]

I saw that on Tumblr earlier. I tagged it as #good vibes.

[Coidzor]

I have low testosterone and I've noticed that my bits smell different from other men's bits, though I'm not sure it's exactly an answer to the question asked.

What, are you saying all mens' bits smell the same to you?

[golentan]

What, are you saying all mens' bits smell the same to you?

Of course not. My sample size isn't large enough: I haven't smelled all men's bits yet.

[Athedia]

Of course not. My sample size isn't large enough: I haven't smelled all men's bits yet.

To declare a fairly high level of confidence I would say only 10000 mens bits should need to be sniffed.

[KerfuffleMach2]

To declare a fairly high level of confidence I would say only 10000 mens bits should need to be sniffed.

Don't listen to this, golentan. Go. Smell all the men. All of them.

[Comrade]

Don't listen to this, golentan. Go. Smell all the men. All of them.

Yet another quote that belongs in a sig... but I already have three...

Alas. What is one to do.

[Coidzor]

Yet another quote that belongs in a sig... but I already have three...

Alas. What is one to do.

An extended signature somewhere, maybe? So one can rotate them in and out every so often?

[Miriel]

First draft of what I would like to bring to my college as a trans*/intersex policy.

DEFINITIONS
A "transgender person" is a person whose gender identity or gender expression does not match their birth assigned genre and/or who identifies as a gender other than "male" or "female".
An "intersex person" is a person whose sexual caracteristics are treated as ambiguous.
"Gendered spaces" are places or contexts where access is limited according to gender. For instance, bathrooms, locker rooms and groups destined to women, amongst others, are said to be gendered spaces.

MEASURES
1. Struggle against discrimination
1.1) The Universit denounces any form of discrimination targetting gender identity, gender expression or the pursuits of treatments to modify sexual caracteristics, and garantees members of the college community a sane and sage environment where they can live in their gender according to their desire.
1.2) When applying [various policies], the University rules that discrimination according to sex includes discrimination targetting gender identity, gender expression or the pursuits of treatments to modify sexual caracteristics.
1.3) The University rules that using voluntarily and repeatedly the wrong first name, the wrong grammatical gender, the wrong formula of adress, or any similar gesture questioning someone's self-identified gender or revealing publicly that someone is a transgender person, is an act of such nature as to undermines this person's dignity and physical and psychological integrity, to compromise their rights, to compromise their performance at work or in their studies and to create an intimidating and horstile working or studying environment. Such acts constitute a form of harassment.

2. Access to facilities
2.1) The University protects its students and employees' right to access gendered spaces according to their self-identified gender.
2.2) Within the means at its disposal, in order to protect the safety and privacy of members of the college community, the University takes necessary measures to limit the number of gendered spaces, especially with, but not limited to, the following measures:
- creation of gender-neutral bathrooms;
- creation of gender-neutral housing;
- creation of private gender-neutral locker rooms;
2.3) In its sport facilities, including swimming pools, the University allows users to wear any piece of clothing which serves to mask undesired sexual caracteristics.

3. Health Services
3.1) The University allows using the services of the university clinic to obtain health services related to the modification of sexual characteristics.

4. Administration
4.1) The University allows students to declare a preferred first name other than their legal name. The preferred first name is used in all situations where it is possible to use it, including the student ID, institutional email, class lists, online services (this list in not exhaustive). The legal name is treated as confidential.
4.2) In its teaching activities, the University explicitly asks student to use their preferred name. There is no obligation forcing a student to give their legal name if it does not match their preferred name.
4.3) Any person who modifies their preferred name with the University, or who has received a new permanent code as a result of a procedure of legal name or sex change, can, ask, at no cost, a new student card with the right information.
4.4) The University allows all students to change their registered gender in their student records without any external confirmation and allows them to use no gender designation or a designation other than "Male" or "Female".
4.5) The University allows all student to use the formule of adress of their choice. It does not depend on registered gender.

5. Employment
5.1) The Univeristy recognizes the discrimination targetting transgender or intersex people and protects their access to employment.

6. Sensitization
6.1) The Univerisity has the responsability to promote, in programs where it is pertinent, education on gender and sexual diversity to its students.
6.2) The Univerisity prepares its students in health sciences to the specific needs of transgender and intersex people, notably by forming them about hormonal and surgical treatments asked by some transgender people and by noting the problematic character of genital surgery on intersex children.
6.3) The University of Montreal sensitizes members of the college community to sexual and gender diversity.

7. Research
7.1) The University publicizes and promotes research on sexual and gender diversity and on transgender and intersex people.
7.2) The University calls upon its researchers to take sexual and gender diversity into account in their research and to create forms which can reflect this reality and which don't hide transgender or intersex people and their experience. This means that research forms should not only ask for binary gender (male/female), but also allow other answers and control transgender and intersex status through additional questions.

Thoughts?

[BladeofObliviom]

Thoughts?

I took it out of the quote so you can see my suggested changes more easily via the quote button, if you wish. Bolding is used to suggest what should be added in, parentheses are general notes, and slashes are used to note what should be removed. This is mostly just dealing with typos and grammatical stuff: The content in general looks good to me. :smallsmile:

A "transgender person" is a person whose gender identity or gender expression does not match their birth assigned genre Gender and/or who identifies as a gender other than "male" or "female".

An "intersex person" is a person whose sexual characteristics are treated as ambiguous.

"Gendered spaces" are places or contexts where access is limited according to gender. For instance, bathrooms, locker rooms and groups destined(?) to women, amongst others, are said to be gendered spaces.

MEASURES
1. Struggle against discrimination
1.1) The University denounces any form of discrimination targetting gender identity, gender expression, or the pursuits of treatments to modify sexual characteristics, and guarantees members of the college community a sane and sage (Safe?) environment where they can live in their gender according to their desire.
1.2) When applying [various policies], the University rules that discrimination according to sex includes discrimination targetting gender identity, gender expression or the pursuits of treatments to modify sexual characteristics.
1.3) The University rules that using voluntarily and repeatedly the wrong first name, the wrong grammatical gender, the wrong formula of address, or any similar gesture questioning someone's self-identified gender or revealing publicly that someone is a transgender person, is an act of such nature as to undermines this person's dignity and physical and psychological integrity, to compromise their rights, to compromise their performance at work or in their studies and to create an intimidating and horstile working or studying environment. Such acts constitute a form of harassment.

2. Access to facilities
2.1) The University protects its students and employees' right to access gendered spaces according to their self-identified gender.
2.2) Within the means at its disposal, in order to protect the safety and privacy of members of the college community, the University takes necessary measures to limit the number of gendered spaces, especially with, but not limited to, the following measures:
- creation of gender-neutral bathrooms;
- creation of gender-neutral housing;
- creation of private gender-neutral locker rooms;
2.3) In its sport facilities, including swimming pools, the University allows users to wear any piece of clothing which serves to mask undesired sexual characteristics.

3. Health Services
3.1) The University allows using the services of the university clinic to obtain health services related to the modification of sexual characteristics.

4. Administration
4.1) The University allows students to declare a preferred first name other than their legal name. The preferred first name is used in all situations where it is possible to use it, including the student ID, institutional email, class lists, online services (this list in is not exhaustive). The legal name is treated as confidential.
4.2) In its teaching activities, the University explicitly asks students to use their preferred names. There is no obligation forcing a student to give their legal name if it does not match their preferred name.

4.3) Any person who modifies their preferred name with the University, or who has received a new permanent code as a result of a procedure of legal name or sex change, can, ask, at no cost, a new student card with the right information. (Sentence needs to be revised. Suggestion: "Any person who modifies their preferred name with the University (or who has received a new permanent code as a result of a procedure of legal name or sex change) may obtain a new student card with updated and correct information at no cost.")

4.4) The University allows all students to change their registered gender in their student records without any external confirmation and allows them to use no gender designation or a designation other than "Male" or "Female".
4.5) The University allows all students to use the formula of address of their choice. It does not depend on registered gender.

5. Employment
5.1) The Univeristy recognizes the discrimination targetting transgender or intersex people and protects their access to employment.

6. Sensitization
6.1) The Univerisity has the responsibility to promote, in programs where it is pertinent, education on gender and sexual diversity to its students.
6.2) The Univerisity prepares its students in health sciences to the specific needs of transgender and intersex people, notably by informing them about hormonal and surgical treatments asked by some transgender people and by noting the problematic character of genital surgery on intersex children.
6.3) The University of Montreal sensitizes members of the college community to sexual and gender diversity.

7. Research
7.1) The University publicizes and promotes research on sexual and gender diversity and on transgender and intersex people.
7.2) The University calls upon its researchers to take sexual and gender diversity into account in their research and to create forms which can reflect this reality and which don't hide transgender or intersex people and their experiences. This means that research forms should not only ask for binary gender (male/female), but also allow other answers and control (Allow? Respect? Odd word to use here.) transgender and intersex status through additional questions.

[Miriel]

I took it out of the quote so you can see my suggested changes more easily via the quote button, if you wish. Bolding is used to suggest what should be added in, parentheses are general notes, and slashes are used to note what should be removed. This is mostly just dealing with typos and grammatical stuff: The content in general looks good to me. :smallsmile:

A "transgender person" is a person whose gender identity or gender expression does not match their birth assigned genre Gender and/or who identifies as a gender other than "male" or "female".

An "intersex person" is a person whose sexual characteristics are treated as ambiguous.

"Gendered spaces" are places or contexts where access is limited according to gender. For instance, bathrooms, locker rooms and groups destined(?) to women, amongst others, are said to be gendered spaces.

MEASURES
1. Struggle against discrimination
1.1) The University denounces any form of discrimination targetting gender identity, gender expression, or the pursuits of treatments to modify sexual characteristics, and guarantees members of the college community a sane and sage (Safe?) environment where they can live in their gender according to their desire.
1.2) When applying [various policies], the University rules that discrimination according to sex includes discrimination targetting gender identity, gender expression or the pursuits of treatments to modify sexual characteristics.
1.3) The University rules that using voluntarily and repeatedly the wrong first name, the wrong grammatical gender, the wrong formula of address, or any similar gesture questioning someone's self-identified gender or revealing publicly that someone is a transgender person, is an act of such nature as to undermines this person's dignity and physical and psychological integrity, to compromise their rights, to compromise their performance at work or in their studies and to create an intimidating and horstile working or studying environment. Such acts constitute a form of harassment.

2. Access to facilities
2.1) The University protects its students and employees' right to access gendered spaces according to their self-identified gender.
2.2) Within the means at its disposal, in order to protect the safety and privacy of members of the college community, the University takes necessary measures to limit the number of gendered spaces, especially with, but not limited to, the following measures:
- creation of gender-neutral bathrooms;
- creation of gender-neutral housing;
- creation of private gender-neutral locker rooms;
2.3) In its sport facilities, including swimming pools, the University allows users to wear any piece of clothing which serves to mask undesired sexual characteristics.

3. Health Services
3.1) The University allows using the services of the university clinic to obtain health services related to the modification of sexual characteristics.

4. Administration
4.1) The University allows students to declare a preferred first name other than their legal name. The preferred first name is used in all situations where it is possible to use it, including the student ID, institutional email, class lists, online services (this list in is not exhaustive). The legal name is treated as confidential.
4.2) In its teaching activities, the University explicitly asks students to use their preferred names. There is no obligation forcing a student to give their legal name if it does not match their preferred name.

4.3) Any person who modifies their preferred name with the University, or who has received a new permanent code as a result of a procedure of legal name or sex change, can, ask, at no cost, a new student card with the right information. (Sentence needs to be revised. Suggestion: "Any person who modifies their preferred name with the University (or who has received a new permanent code as a result of a procedure of legal name or sex change) may obtain a new student card with updated and correct information at no cost.")

4.4) The University allows all students to change their registered gender in their student records without any external confirmation and allows them to use no gender designation or a designation other than "Male" or "Female".
4.5) The University allows all students to use the formula of address of their choice. It does not depend on registered gender.

5. Employment
5.1) The Univeristy recognizes the discrimination targetting transgender or intersex people and protects their access to employment.

6. Sensitization
6.1) The Univerisity has the responsibility to promote, in programs where it is pertinent, education on gender and sexual diversity to its students.
6.2) The Univerisity prepares its students in health sciences to the specific needs of transgender and intersex people, notably by informing them about hormonal and surgical treatments asked by some transgender people and by noting the problematic character of genital surgery on intersex children.
6.3) The University of Montreal sensitizes members of the college community to sexual and gender diversity.

7. Research
7.1) The University publicizes and promotes research on sexual and gender diversity and on transgender and intersex people.
7.2) The University calls upon its researchers to take sexual and gender diversity into account in their research and to create forms which can reflect this reality and which don't hide transgender or intersex people and their experiences. This means that research forms should not only ask for binary gender (male/female), but also allow other answers and control (Allow? Respect? Odd word to use here.) transgender and intersex status through additional questions.

Grammar, etc., is not super useful because it's in French. Admittedly, I shouldn't translate anything on my late night/early morning brain :smallsigh: But thanks for the effort!

7.2: I meant "control" as in "control this or that variable".

[BladeofObliviom]

Grammar, etc., is not super useful because it's in French. Admittedly, I shouldn't translate anything on my late night/early morning brain :smallsigh: But thanks for the effort!

7.2: I meant "control" as in "control this or that variable".

What's this "French" stuff? I'm from the US and all I know is english American! :smalltongue:

Also, that makes sense. Not sure why I didn't read it that way the first time through, given the context of research. :smallredface:

[Lentrax]

Caroline: I am no legal expert, so I can't say if you got everything, but from what I am reading, it looks well thought out and thorough.

[Serpentine]

Does French distinguish between sex and gender?

[Coidzor]

I'd suggest something about training for addressing the health concerns of transgender individuals as part of their requirements for student health staff going forward or to be enacted at some point in the near future, and including trans* concerns in their sensitivity training/materials for those who deal with students, especially those in the offices of student housing and the dean of students as well as similar apparatus of the school that deal with students in contexts where their transgender status is relevant.

Because it's not enough to just give sensitivity training to the students, you really need to give it to the faculty and staff as well.

And if they're going to be providing health services to transgender and intersex individuals, they really need to have a bit better idea of what they're doing than someone who has never had to consider such concerns before.

[ArlEammon]

Does French distinguish between sex and gender?

-edit-
nevermind.

[Miriel]

Does French distinguish between sex and gender?
Meh, not really. When theorists/feminists/trans people talk, yes, most of the time, but otherwise, "sex" is used for both to a much greater level than in English.


I'd suggest something about training for addressing the health concerns of transgender individuals as part of their requirements for student health staff going forward or to be enacted at some point in the near future, and including trans* concerns in their sensitivity training/materials for those who deal with students, especially those in the offices of student housing and the dean of students as well as similar apparatus of the school that deal with students in contexts where their transgender status is relevant.

Because it's not enough to just give sensitivity training to the students, you really need to give it to the faculty and staff as well.

And if they're going to be providing health services to transgender and intersex individuals, they really need to have a bit better idea of what they're doing than someone who has never had to consider such concerns before.
I changed most of the "students" for "members of the college community". Thanks!

I don't expect (or strongly desire) they'll give hormones or anything, mostly the easy stuff like bloodwork, health check up before surgery, etc.

[Serpentine]

Meh, not really. When theorists/feminists/trans people talk, yes, most of the time, but otherwise, "sex" is used for both to a much greater level than in English.Okay. That was just my only concern with it, talking about "birth assigned gender", and everything being gender in general.

[Coidzor]

I changed most of the "students" for "members of the college community". Thanks!

I don't expect (or strongly desire) they'll give hormones or anything, mostly the easy stuff like bloodwork, health check up before surgery, etc.

Well, no, but I'd expect them to know how to talk to and treat trans* patients to the same extent they interact with and treat cis patients. Right now, in the U.S., most doctors don't even know how to talk to gay or lesbian patients, much less transgender or intersex patients.

[Miriel]

Well, no, but I'd expect them to know how to talk to and treat trans* patients to the same extent they interact with and treat cis patients. Right now, in the U.S., most doctors don't even know how to talk to gay or lesbian patients, much less transgender or intersex patients.
Yeah, I know. But policy or no policy, we'll take care of that next year :smallsmile:

[Heliomance]

This looks potentially amazing! (http://www.bustle.com/articles/28362-amy-foxs-the-switch-may-start-the-transgender-tv-revolution)

This, however, which came into the charity shop I work at a couple of days ago, is less amazing >_>

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a265/Heliomance/2014-06-19123313_zpsf97ca61f.jpg

[golentan]

This looks potentially amazing! (http://www.bustle.com/articles/28362-amy-foxs-the-switch-may-start-the-transgender-tv-revolution)

This, however, which came into the charity shop I work at a couple of days ago, is less amazing >_>

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a265/Heliomance/2014-06-19123313_zpsf97ca61f.jpg

Cool! I hope it's a good show!

[Athedia]

This, however, which came into the charity shop I work at a couple of days ago, is less amazing >_>

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a265/Heliomance/2014-06-19123313_zpsf97ca61f.jpg

That looks... uncomfortable.

[Ravens_cry]

That looks... uncomfortable.
Aye. Imagine what your palm would look like, heck, feel like, after even half an hour of using that. Someone obviously said 'Ergonomics, shergonomics.'"

[golentan]

I know someone from highschool. A fairly good friend at the time, thought of her as good people. Now she's posted several things on facebook that pretty clearly show her gender politics date from the fifties. She has a negative opinion of feminists and is all for traditional ideas of chivalry and a gender role distribution in the household.

Is it worth it to engage on this issue?

[SiuiS]

I know someone from highschool. A fairly good friend at the time, thought of her as good people. Now she's posted several things on facebook that pretty clearly show her gender politics date from the fifties. She has a negative opinion of feminists and is all for traditional ideas of chivalry and a gender role distribution in the household.

Is it worth it to engage on this issue?

My default stance is, "is this really bad?"

Folks have preferences, and that's okay. Braz has a more traditional idea of how gender stuff should work, for example. And expressing your opinion in the place your opinions are aupposed to go (Facebook) isn't a bad thing. As long as she's not actively fighting against anything, this is no different than having different fashion sense or a favorite color you don't like.

In my opinion, anyway.

[KerfuffleMach2]

I know someone from highschool. A fairly good friend at the time, thought of her as good people. Now she's posted several things on facebook that pretty clearly show her gender politics date from the fifties. She has a negative opinion of feminists and is all for traditional ideas of chivalry and a gender role distribution in the household.

Is it worth it to engage on this issue?

I'm with SiuiS on this. Long as she isn't being a jerk about it, it's not really a big deal. It's her opinion. If that's how she likes her life to be, than good for her.

[Comrade]

I know someone from highschool. A fairly good friend at the time, thought of her as good people. Now she's posted several things on facebook that pretty clearly show her gender politics date from the fifties. She has a negative opinion of feminists and is all for traditional ideas of chivalry and a gender role distribution in the household.

Is it worth it to engage on this issue?

Meh. I think I've grown too jaded to the whole idea of arguing over feminism on the internet. It's just never worked out well; the other person merely walks away even more convinced of their noble crusade against the dreaded feminazi, and I come away from it eaten up with impotent rage. I'd like to say yeah, it's worth it just by virtue of at least fighting the battle that needs to be fought even if victory is unlikely, but at this point I probably just wouldn't bother.

[golentan]

Thanks guys. That's what I figured, but it drives me crazy to see certain things.

I mean, I'm personally pretty conservative in my tastes and activities a lot of the time. But I don't like "one true way" of doing social things, and I don't like inequality, and I especially don't like when they're combined.

[SiuiS]

Meh. I think I've grown too jaded to the whole idea of arguing over feminism on the internet. It's just never worked out well; the other person merely walks away even more convinced of their noble crusade against the dreaded feminazi, and I come away from it eaten up with impotent rage. I'd like to say yeah, it's worth it just by virtue of at least fighting the battle that needs to be fought even if victory is unlikely, but at this point I probably just wouldn't bother.

That's actually a recognized thing. Telling people they are wrong causes them to become more firmly sure of their opinion. You cannot change someone's mind (in general) by saying "you're wrong, the right answer is … and here is evidence", it's not possible.

I mean, it is possible, but not likely. I try very hard to be sway-able, for example, and take the truth as my opinion rather than making my opinion the truth, and I'm sure you can find five or more people in this thread alone that think I'm an arrogant tosser who insists on always being right.


Thanks guys. That's what I figured, but it drives me crazy to see certain things.

I mean, I'm personally pretty conservative in my tastes and activities a lot of the time. But I don't like "one true way" of doing social things, and I don't like inequality, and I especially don't like when they're combined.

Yeah.

[Comrade]

I mean, it is possible, but not likely. I try very hard to be sway-able, for example, and take the truth as my opinion rather than making my opinion the truth, and I'm sure you can find five or more people in this thread alone that think I'm an arrogant tosser who insists on always being right.

The thing is, some things simply aren't a difference of opinion: they're correct, or incorrect. For example, I remember someone on a forum stating in passing that people 'choose' to be homosexual, so I stated that this isn't true, that there are heaps upon heaps of evidence as to why that isn't true. They responded with 'we'll just have to agree to disagree', which really got to me, because you can't just agree to disagree on reality, especially with regards to misconceptions that encourage prejudice and bigotry. Reality is what it is. Some things are differences of opinion (ie "Incantation is a better band than Suffocation" (actually, that's just factually incorrect)). And some things are simply rejection and substitution of reality (ie "There are only two genders, each of which correlates incontrovertibly with one of two sexes").

[ArlEammon]

The thing is, some things simply aren't a difference of opinion: they're correct, or incorrect. For example, I remember someone on a forum stating in passing that people 'choose' to be homosexual, so I stated that this isn't true, that there are heaps upon heaps of evidence as to why that isn't true. They responded with 'we'll just have to agree to disagree', which really got to me, because you can't just agree to disagree on reality, especially with regards to misconceptions that encourage prejudice and bigotry. Reality is what it is. Some things are differences of opinion (ie "Incantation is a better band than Suffocation" (actually, that's just factually incorrect)). And some things are simply rejection and substitution of reality (ie "There are only two genders, each of which correlates incontrovertibly with one of two sexes").

I think the reason why some people think about "choice" and homosexuality and even bisexuality that way is because there are some people who do, in fact, kind of do that. It doesn't mean it has to account for most or even very many people of alternative life styles, but out of hundreds of millions of people in the world, why not have some, even if just a small percentage of homosexuals and bisexuals do it out of preference and choice rather than a default state they've been in since birth?

People seem to be so vocal. "It's not choice. . . it's not a choice. It's NOT A CHOICE!"

Well you know, I know some people, and it's a choice. (For them). It doesn't mean that there's a lot of people around like that.

One problem with saying "It's not a choice" even if it's mostly true, is that if you just leave the argument at that, there's always a chink in the armor of your reasoning and just forcing your volume over people who have legitimate criticisms never solves any sort of issue that needs to be resolved. It just turns a potential truth that you can inform someone with into a weapon to beat them over the head with. Bare in mind, I'm not claiming any sort of percentage when I bring this up, I'm just saying, that if someone knows one, two, or more people with a different sexual preference than the norm, just saying "It isn't a choice", looks like nothing more than stomping your foot in a temper tantrum.

[SiuiS]

The thing is, some things simply aren't a difference of opinion: they're correct, or incorrect. For example, I remember someone on a forum stating in passing that people 'choose' to be homosexual, so I stated that this isn't true, that there are heaps upon heaps of evidence as to why that isn't true. They responded with 'we'll just have to agree to disagree', which really got to me, because you can't just agree to disagree on reality, especially with regards to misconceptions that encourage prejudice and bigotry. Reality is what it is. Some things are differences of opinion (ie "Incantation is a better band than Suffocation" (actually, that's just factually incorrect)). And some things are simply rejection and substitution of reality (ie "There are only two genders, each of which correlates incontrovertibly with one of two sexes").

I know. It's part of the human mind, it's irrational, but it's there. There are people who believe the earth is flat and launchin. Them into space to show them the round earth will further convince them of how flat it is. Sometimes it's as simple as human brains are that much of a jerk. We all know how hard it is to say "you're right, sorry" when someone is being a pillock about you're wrong and need to admit it and apologize and do so using their preferred word choice and if you don't then you aren't repentant enough. This is just a further extension of that phenomenon. Yeah, they're still wrong. But it's not going to come out easy. Often, the best thing at this point is to leave them alone and see if the seeds of doubt you've down will root. Further attempts to make them see the truth will literally blind them to it.

Some of us would rather burn than give you the satisfaction of hearing us say "ow, fire is hot". That's even the basic premise of Gurran Lagann!

[Comrade]

One problem with saying "It's not a choice" even if it's mostly true, is that if you just leave the argument at that, there's always a chink in the armor of your reasoning and just forcing your volume over people who have legitimate criticisms never solves any sort of issue that needs to be resolved. It just turns a potential truth that you can inform someone with into a weapon to beat them over the head with. Bare in mind, I'm not claiming any sort of percentage when I bring this up, I'm just saying, that if someone knows one, two, or more people with a different sexual preference than the norm, just saying "It isn't a choice", looks like nothing more than stomping your foot in a temper tantrum.
I cited the various sources of evidence as to why sexuality isn't a matter of choice. Didn't make much of a difference.


I know. It's part of the human mind, it's irrational, but it's there. There are people who believe the earth is flat and launchin. Them into space to show them the round earth will further convince them of how flat it is. Sometimes it's as simple as human brains are that much of a jerk. We all know how hard it is to say "you're right, sorry" when someone is being a pillock about you're wrong and need to admit it and apologize and do so using their preferred word choice and if you don't then you aren't repentant enough. This is just a further extension of that phenomenon. Yeah, they're still wrong. But it's not going to come out easy. Often, the best thing at this point is to leave them alone and see if the seeds of doubt you've down will root. Further attempts to make them see the truth will literally blind them to it.

Some of us would rather burn than give you the satisfaction of hearing us say "ow, fire is hot". That's even the basic premise of Gurran Lagann!

Yeah, you're probably right, but that doesn't mean I can't get all uselessly angry over it anyway :smalltongue:

[ArlEammon]

I cited the various sources of evidence as to why sexuality isn't a matter of choice. Didn't make much of a difference.



Yeah, you're probably right, but that doesn't mean I can't get all uselessly angry over it anyway :smalltongue:

I've just popped in on this conversation here. Just keep in mind I"m not saying that is necessarily a choice, just that there are statistical anomalies, and possibly environment contributions to this sort of thing. Even if your evidence is contrary to my premise, it's a soft premise, and not a challenge to your position.

[ArlEammon]

Aye. Imagine what your palm would look like, heck, feel like, after even half an hour of using that. Someone obviously said 'Ergonomics, shergonomics.'"

I think it looks worse than what it is. Probably clear plastic over it we can't see.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Some of us would rather burn than give you the satisfaction of hearing us say "ow, fire is hot". That's even the basic premise of Gurran Lagann!

Reminds me of a saying I'm fond of.

"Some people learn by reading. Others, by observing. And some just have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves."

[Jaycemonde]

I think it looks worse than what it is. Probably clear plastic over it we can't see.

No, I've seen mice like that in person before. Even had to use a few. They're as bad as they look.

What bothers me is the "what women want" thing on the box. Most women I know who are computer literate just want cheap Microsoft or Logitech mice. Personally, I just want a mouse that's durable enough to chuck off a building, pick up and beat someone over the head with for being wrong about my identity, and then play games with without any issues. I actually had a mouse like that once, but it had software issues and became completely unusable about four months ago.

[Serpentine]

This, however, which came into the charity shop I work at a couple of days ago, is less amazing >_>

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a265/Heliomance/2014-06-19123313_zpsf97ca61f.jpgI have one of those, or something very similar, except in pink. My dad got it for me. To go with the bright pink Hello Kitty keyboard he also gave me.

My dad is a funny guy.

[Heliomance]

I think it looks worse than what it is. Probably clear plastic over it we can't see.

Nope. It's a mouse with plastic jewels stuck to it. Because what women want is pink packaging and sparkles on everything, amirite?

On a similar but more amusing note, I've just found a book entitled "Everything Men Understand about Women". It's completely blank.

[Zorg]

Nope. It's a mouse with plastic jewels stuck to it. Because what women want is pink packaging and sparkles on everything, amirite?

Yes..? >_>

[Athedia]

Meh. I think I've grown too jaded to the whole idea of arguing over feminism on the internet. It's just never worked out well; the other person merely walks away even more convinced of their noble crusade against the dreaded feminazi, and I come away from it eaten up with impotent rage. I'd like to say yeah, it's worth it just by virtue of at least fighting the battle that needs to be fought even if victory is unlikely, but at this point I probably just wouldn't bother.

Though it wasn't an arguement, more of a discussion of a youtube video on a group I am in on Facebook I will say one person managed to slightly change my views toward feminism. Basically he explained the different directions it split into and how some of my views fit one view. I usually run away from feminism, but that time I actually didn't feel attacked by it for a first.

[Athedia]

Nope. It's a mouse with plastic jewels stuck to it. Because what women want is pink packaging and sparkles on everything, amirite?

On a similar but more amusing note, I've just found a book entitled "Everything Men Understand about Women". It's completely blank.

Well I really like things with Hello Kitty on them. But other than that I prefer blacks, dark grays, and browns.

[Jaycemonde]

Well I really like things with Hello Kitty on them. But other than that I prefer blacks, dark grays, and browns.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xcN3ZA3HL.jpg

[Athedia]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41xcN3ZA3HL.jpg

I don't use guns. Also I have mostly pink Hello Kitty stuff. Except for my DS case which is black.

[Miriel]

Nope. It's a mouse with plastic jewels stuck to it. Because what women want is pink packaging and sparkles on everything, amirite?
I'll stick to my ergonomic mouse at home and my tiny mouse for moving around.

[Ifni]

Caroline, just a couple of questions/comments on content:

A "transgender person" is a person whose gender identity or gender expression does not match their birth assigned genre and/or who identifies as a gender other than "male" or "female".

Is the inclusion of gender expression in this definition standard? I'd been under the impression that it was identity that defined someone as trans, not expression. Checking google indicates that gender expression is sometimes defined as "the expression of gender identity", in which case, okay* - but I wouldn't previously have called a guy who likes makeup and dresses (but suffers no dysphoria and identifies as a man) transgender, I would have said he's a man with feminine gender expression.

*By this definition, it seems like gender expression is how one signals one's correct gender to the world, so someone who wishes to dress and present themselves in a manner culturally associated with a gender not their own isn't actually expressing gender at all? This isn't how I understood the phrase, but I might have been using the terminology incorrectly - thoughts?


the University takes necessary measures to limit the number of gendered spaces

It seems like this could potentially be used to limit the number of sororities, fraternities and women's groups. Is this intended?

I think Comrade found all the minor word-choice issues I spotted.

[Comrade]

I think Comrade found all the minor word-choice issues I spotted.

Pretty sure that was BladeofOblivion, not me.

[Coidzor]

Caroline, just a couple of questions/comments on content:


Is the inclusion of gender expression in this definition standard? I'd been under the impression that it was identity that defined someone as trans, not expression. Checking google indicates that gender expression is sometimes defined as "the expression of gender identity", in which case, okay* - but I wouldn't previously have called a guy who likes makeup and dresses (but suffers no dysphoria and identifies as a man) transgender, I would have said he's a man with feminine gender expression.

*By this definition, it seems like gender expression is how one signals one's correct gender to the world, so someone who wishes to dress and present themselves in a manner culturally associated with a gender not their own isn't actually expressing gender at all? This isn't how I understood the phrase, but I might have been using the terminology incorrectly - thoughts?

I think there might be some haziness with gender**** and certain genderqueer individuals where gender expression is a major component of the identity, and they would fall under the umbrella? :smallconfused: Though, come to think of it, IIRC, certain forms of crossdressing fall under the umbrella as well.

It certainly seems to be a path destined for frustration to express as male while identifying as female or vice versa. Heartily enjoying gothic lolita is going to get a lot of misgendering shes and hers to those who want to be hes and hims, for instance.

I'm more familiar with a slightly similar scenario but with several heaping tablespoons of androgyny added into the mix, I must admit. :smallconfused:

[Heliomance]

Signal boosting a relevant survey.
http://aliceofblunderland.tumblr.com/post/88803199821/transgender-survey-please-help

[SiuiS]

Yeah, you're probably right, but that doesn't mean I can't get all uselessly angry over it anyway :smalltongue:

Hell, according to science, that's the appropriate response!

I think, fundamentally, the difference comes down to whether someone wants to be Right or know what's Right. The former is entirely crap. The latter means you can strongly hold an invalid opinion... Until someone comes along with proof. I know people change their minds often enough when presented with nonantagonistic and well-arranged evidence.

The former get instead a swift Shatner punch to the neck and Kidney :D


No, I've seen mice like that in person before. Even had to use a few. They're as bad as they look.

What bothers me is the "what women want" thing on the box. Most women I know who are computer literate just want cheap Microsoft or Logitech mice. Personally, I just want a mouse that's durable enough to chuck off a building, pick up and beat someone over the head with for being wrong about my identity, and then play games with without any issues. I actually had a mouse like that once, but it had software issues and became completely unusable about four months ago.

Yeah. Admittedly, some men get the same treatment. "you can tell this particular item is masculine enough for the manly men in your life because of it's sufficient amount of GRATUITOUS CAMOFLAGE!"


Yes..? >_>

Hee~

I'm sure you'd want a quality diamond stuffs pink as sparkly thing, though. Right? Like, I don't do sparkles that lack a topcoat. Ever. I don't need to be washing the damn things out of my hair in ten years...


Though it wasn't an arguement, more of a discussion of a youtube video on a group I am in on Facebook I will say one person managed to slightly change my views toward feminism. Basically he explained the different directions it split into and how some of my views fit one view. I usually run away from feminism, but that time I actually didn't feel attacked by it for a first.

Heh.

I like feminism because it makes the radical claim that women can be proficient in math or science without needing pink instruments or to have the subjects dumbed down. That's all I need it for; a lot of the rest is gratuitous baggage for me.

[Coidzor]

I like feminism because it makes the radical claim that women can be proficient in math or science without needing pink instruments or to have the subjects dumbed down. That's all I need it for; a lot of the rest is gratuitous baggage for me.

The idea that women are people is gratuitous? And baggage? :smalltongue:

[Kindablue]

The idea that women are people is gratuitous? And baggage? :smalltongue:

There is a small circle within a large circle. On the small circle is written "a lot of". On the large circle is written " all of".

[KerfuffleMach2]

On a similar but more amusing note, I've just found a book entitled "Everything Men Understand about Women". It's completely blank.

Well...that's fairly accurate...

[Coidzor]

There is a small circle within a large circle. On the small circle is written "a lot of". On the large circle is written " all of".

Darn, well now my ribbing doesn't even make sense.


Well...that's fairly accurate...

Now if it was "What Men think they know about Women, But Really..."

Actually you could probably make that into a book series. What [X] think they know about [Y] contrasted with the truth.

[Kindablue]

Darn, well now my ribbing doesn't even make sense.

They don't call me Kinda "joke fact checking" Blue for nothing! I'm watching you! >.O

[SiuiS]

The idea that women are people is gratuitous? And baggage? :smalltongue:

There is a very real argument to be made that, the first time someone hears you defend the idea that women are people, you plant the idea yourself that they aren't and that needs fixing.

Really though, I've never seen feminism as "women are people", it's always been women have rights. Starting from a base 0, the idea that women don't need special treatment covers just about everything you could complain about, because it plants te idea, unspoken, that the basis of special treatment is false – that they've been people the whole time and other people are just gits.


They don't call me Kinda "joke fact checking" Blue for nothing! I'm watching you! >.O

Man, do they? I can't even get the color right, now I'm adding a fancy quotation marked middle name phrase?

You're killing me, Partial"phrase goes here"Puce!

[Comrade]

Starting from a base 0, the idea that women don't need special treatment covers just about everything you could complain about, because it plants te idea, unspoken, that the basis of special treatment is false – that they've been people the whole time and other people are just gits.

Hm. That's an interesting perspective-- and one I don't think I've encountered before-- although I'm not sure just how effective this whole notion of planting unspoken ideas could really be, ultimately.

[Coidzor]

There is a very real argument to be made that, the first time someone hears you defend the idea that women are people, you plant the idea yourself that they aren't and that needs fixing.

Really though, I've never seen feminism as "women are people", it's always been women have rights. Starting from a base 0, the idea that women don't need special treatment covers just about everything you could complain about, because it plants te idea, unspoken, that the basis of special treatment is false – that they've been people the whole time and other people are just gits.

It's a fairly well-known quote(although the attribution is a bit different each time, curiously) and you're fairly lucky that you haven't encountered arguments to the contrary in your meatspace neck of the woods with or without having said a thing.

[Athedia]

They don't call me Kinda "joke fact checking" Blue for nothing! I'm watching you! >.O

I think you need a shorter nickname.

[SiuiS]

Hm. That's an interesting perspective-- and one I don't think I've encountered before-- although I'm not sure just how effective this whole notion of planting unspoken ideas could really be, ultimately.

It's a basis of college rhetoric. The more detail you put into refuting an idea, the more legitimate that idea seems. Have you ever noticed how after a really long pedantic argument, people seem to actually consider the opposition's edge-case contrived scenario?

If someone brings up an argument that has absolutely no merit, and you deconstruct it as if it did have merit, you've granted it merit in the eyes of your audience. It was worth your time, after all. The best thing to do is just say the idea isn't worth actually debunking anymore than your common sense statements already have.


It's a fairly well-known quote(although the attribution is a bit different each time, curiously) and you're fairly lucky that you haven't encountered arguments to the contrary in your meatspace neck of the woods with or without having said a thing.

I've seen "feminism is the radical idea that women are people, too" which means that not just men are people, but that's different connotative lot than "women are people" end of sentence full stop.

Regardless, I'm sure you can find all sorts of holes in the idea that women shouldn't be catered to. Why you would bother with a technical point about how a concept could be misconstrued due to language choice instead of treating women well is beyond me, though, and you probably shouldn't do that. See what I did there? ;P no offense meant, luv~

[Coidzor]

I've seen "feminism is the radical idea that women are people, too" which means that not just men are people, but that's different connotative lot than "women are people" end of sentence full stop.

Regardless, I'm sure you can find all sorts of holes in the idea that women shouldn't be catered to. Why you would bother with a technical point about how a concept could be misconstrued due to language choice instead of treating women well is beyond me, though, and you probably shouldn't do that. See what I did there? ;P no offense meant, luv~

No, not really. You still failed to get the reference. I may not have delivered it perfectly, but that does not negate that I had to spell it out for you for you to actually get the reference.

Yeah, don't call me "luv," ever again, please. I can deal with the occasional love, but luv just... no. Please, no.

[Miriel]

Caroline, just a couple of questions/comments on content:


Is the inclusion of gender expression in this definition standard? I'd been under the impression that it was identity that defined someone as trans, not expression. Checking google indicates that gender expression is sometimes defined as "the expression of gender identity", in which case, okay* - but I wouldn't previously have called a guy who likes makeup and dresses (but suffers no dysphoria and identifies as a man) transgender, I would have said he's a man with feminine gender expression.

*By this definition, it seems like gender expression is how one signals one's correct gender to the world, so someone who wishes to dress and present themselves in a manner culturally associated with a gender not their own isn't actually expressing gender at all? This isn't how I understood the phrase, but I might have been using the terminology incorrectly - thoughts?

It's not necessarily standard -- it depends --, but this definition is to be used to understand the rest of the policy, and inclusiveness is great, so I decided to make it as broad as possible. With this definition, someone who identifies as male but cross-dresses for whatever reason is included everytime I say "transgender", so they'd have protection, etc. Btw, I usually prefer trans*, but I think that here, it's more sensible to use "transgender" ("transgenre") because it sounds more formal. If all goes well, it'll be a big official policy, after all.

Anyway, I just put a working definition there for intelligibility. Some cool people and I are planning to organize a convention EDIT: about defining trans-related words in the fall, so we'll use that one in the final version :smallsmile:


It seems like this could potentially be used to limit the number of sororities, fraternities and women's groups. Is this intended?
No, it isn't. Hum... I guess it falls under the sort of "within its means" thing. Or we could add a specific exception?


It's a basis of college rhetoric. The more detail you put into refuting an idea, the more legitimate that idea seems. Have you ever noticed how after a really long pedantic argument, people seem to actually consider the opposition's edge-case contrived scenario?

If someone brings up an argument that has absolutely no merit, and you deconstruct it as if it did have merit, you've granted it merit in the eyes of your audience. It was worth your time, after all. The best thing to do is just say the idea isn't worth actually debunking anymore than your common sense statements already have.
However, not stating that there are real problems is the perfect way not to solve these. It just so happens that these problems work coherently in the direction of subordinating women to men.

[Ifni]

@Caroline, re policy:

It's not necessarily standard -- it depends --, but this definition is to be used to understand the rest of the policy, and inclusiveness is great, so I decided to make it as broad as possible. With this definition, someone who identifies as male but cross-dresses for whatever reason is included everytime I say "transgender", so they'd have protection, etc. Btw, I usually prefer trans*, but I think that here, it's more sensible to use "transgender" ("transgenre") because it sounds more formal. If all goes well, it'll be a big official policy, after all.

Anyway, I just put a working definition there for intelligibility. Some cool people and I are planning to organize a convention in the fall, so we'll use that one in the final version :smallsmile:

Yup, that makes sense. In the context of this policy, I think it's clear you want those protections to apply against discrimination on the grounds of gender expression as well, and just defining it all as "transgender" is a useful shorthand for that. I was mostly trying to clarify for my own benefit whether "gender expression" meant something different to what I thought it did.


No, it isn't. Hum... I guess it falls under the sort of "within its means" thing. Or we could add a specific exception?

Hmm. I don't have a great solution, it was just something that struck me reading it, that as currently written there was sort of an implication that getting rid of gendered spaces was always desirable. It seems like the issue (as I understand your position) isn't specifically that gendered spaces are bad, it's (a) people's access to gendered spaces should be based on their actual gender not assigned gender, and (b) the default should be that spaces/groups aren't restricted by gender (e.g. for things like bathrooms and the like where unisex bathrooms are perfectly functional).

That said a specific exemption for women's groups / fraternities / sororities could work, I'm pretty sure there's an existing specific exception in sex-discrimination legislation as applied to colleges (in the US). And it might be easier to present it to the university and let them figure it out :smallwink:

Anyway, nice policy, and good luck!

EDIT:


Pretty sure that was BladeofOblivion, not me.

Whoops :smallredface: Sorry, BladeofOblivion.

[Heliomance]

Ow. Arms hurt more than legs to epilate, and the ice pack on my epilator didn't help much. At least there's less surface area to cover than legs.

[Miriel]

Sooo...

Had a super cool time on Friday and Saturday. I was with my girlfriend, and it was great. I gave my conference, and it went very well. I networked a lot, too.
Uh... Because of girlfriend, etc., I'm reconsidering my asexuality for a paler shade of grey than I thought, + genital dysphoria.

Then, family stuff. It was okay-ish, but I got misgendered a lot... Meh.

Oh, and apparently, my mother thought it was fine to tell people that I plan to get the surgery without telling me about it.


@Caroline, re policy:
Hmm. I don't have a great solution, it was just something that struck me reading it, that as currently written there was sort of an implication that getting rid of gendered spaces was always desirable. It seems like the issue (as I understand your position) isn't specifically that gendered spaces are bad, it's (a) people's access to gendered spaces should be based on their actual gender not assigned gender, and (b) the default should be that spaces/groups aren't restricted by gender (e.g. for things like bathrooms and the like where unisex bathrooms are perfectly functional).

That said a specific exemption for women's groups / fraternities / sororities could work, I'm pretty sure there's an existing specific exception in sex-discrimination legislation as applied to colleges (in the US). And it might be easier to present it to the university and let them figure it out :smallwink:

Anyway, nice policy, and good luck!
Yes, that's exactly how I intend it. I'll put the exemption in for now.

And thanks :smallsmile:

[Comrade]

Ow. Arms hurt more than legs to epilate, and the ice pack on my epilator didn't help much. At least there's less surface area to cover than legs.
I didn't know what an epilator is, so I decided to hit up the googles, and...

"An epilator is an electrical device used to remove hair by mechanically grasping multiple hairs simultaneously and pulling them out."

:smalleek: Why does it seem like so many hair removal devices originated as instruments of torture?



Had a super cool time on Friday and Saturday. I was with my girlfriend, and it was great. I gave my conference, and it went very well. I networked a lot, too.

Congratulations! Sorry about your mother's indiscretion, though.

[Miriel]

New article on transnormativity! (http://lucreziacontarini.com/2014/06/23/transnormativity-and-asd/) It's very personal, but it may be interesting, especially for trans people with Asperger's syndrome or similar issues. I know there are a few around...


Congratulations! Sorry about your mother's indiscretion, though.
Thanks!

I think (hope?) she understood though.

[golentan]

Okay, seriously, what's with me and asexuals. Today after school, I ran down to the bookstore and browsed for a bit, grabbed myself a coffee. Cutest guy I've ever seen comes over a while later (I got the last table) and asks if he can sit there. We get to talking, and he's as amazing to talk to as he is to look at. He mentioned in passing that he gets flak for not wanting a girlfriend, which I take as a hint, so I ask if he's free later in the week to grab dinner and he gets a panicky look on his face. "Oh, uh, I'm not interested in a boyfriend either." "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable... Are you ace?" "Yeah." "Any chance you'd like to hang out just as friends?" "No... I should get going..."

:smallfrown:

That's three unrequited crushes and two unrequited cases of love on asexual folks, if anyone's counting.

[Grytorm]

New article on transnormativity! (http://lucreziacontarini.com/2014/06/23/transnormativity-and-asd/) It's very personal, but it may be interesting, especially for trans people with Asperger's syndrome or similar issues. I know there are a few around...

Thank you for sharing that. It was interesting to read. The idea of researching others experiences with Aspergers never occurred to me. I might do it sometime.

Interesting how I get into doublethink. I still am wondering about my gender identity, and I go between seeing small bits of evidence of maybe and then cautioning myself not to over interpret things for fear of some hidden brain agenda looking for friends.

[TandemChelipeds]

What's the difference between transgendered and trans*? I'm not being facetious here, I genuinely don't know the difference. Why is the asterisk more palatable? Is it just shorter to type, or is there an actual difference in meaning?

[Miriel]

Thank you for sharing that. It was interesting to read. The idea of researching others experiences with Aspergers never occurred to me. I might do it sometime.
There is evidence that being on the autistic spectrum and being trans at the same time is very frequent.

On your questioning process: Take your time. You don't have to rush either way.

EDIT

What's the difference between transgendered and trans*? I'm not being facetious here, I genuinely don't know the difference. Why is the asterisk more palatable? Is it just shorter to type, or is there an actual difference in meaning?
There isn't necessarily a difference. Trans* includes all people with a gender different to assigned gender. Transgender (which is usually preferred to transgendered, but let's not debate this again) can mean that sometimes, but sometimes, it has a more restricted meaning. The asterisk is there to mean that everything is included.

[TandemChelipeds]

There isn't necessarily a difference. Trans* includes all people with a gender different to assigned gender. Transgender (which is usually preferred to transgendered, but let's not debate this again) can mean that sometimes, but sometimes, it has a more restricted meaning. The asterisk is there to mean that everything is included.

Oh gods. See, this is why I avoid the community. Semantics give me a headache.

[Grytorm]

There is evidence that being on the autistic spectrum and being trans at the same time is very frequent.

On your questioning process: Take your time. You don't have to rush either way.

Yeah the only thing in that article that is definitely in common is the lack of caring about my appearance.

Also another thing I want to mention is the two dreams I have had where they I am female. But both of those were weird dreams like all my dreams so what is the point of interpreting them? They are just dreams. I'm just glad I don't actually experience unpleasant things in dreams.

[Lord Raziere]

New article on transnormativity! (http://lucreziacontarini.com/2014/06/23/transnormativity-and-asd/) It's very personal, but it may be interesting, especially for trans people with Asperger's syndrome or similar issues. I know there are a few around...
.

.....For some reason this gives me hope. I might be transgender after all. I have a similar experience of not strongly with either gender but still wanting to be female. and I definitely agree with that internal identity thing for the most part. I have an internal vision for how I want to be but it doesn't match my external vision and so I don't really care for it. hm.

[SiuiS]

Golly: maybe you like asexuals? As far as on antic issue go, they would definitely be safe.


No, not really. You still failed to get the reference.

No, I pointedly continued because the reference does not in any way actually impact what I said, and I purposefully presented my response with that in mind. People say things. Things said get popular. Doesn't mean they are required reading. Ackowledging a quote that I didn't disagree with that is presented as disagreeing with me would weaken what I said, for no reason other than technical pedantry.

If you really want to draw a line between "women are people" and "women shouldn't be considered less than people", you can. But it's a waste of time and I'm not going to bother with it.

Alternately, we're just talking past each other really hard.
http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_makunmHXMq1r83ei3o1_1280.jpg



This seriously took WAY TOO LONG to access the url for...

And, huh. That's a strange split; they're pronounced identically. Why does the one cause you pause? That's interesting.



However, not stating that there are real problems is the perfect way not to solve these. It just so happens that these problems work coherently in the direction of subordinating women to men.

That's true. But in this context, that is advocate for an All or Nothing response; you are saying that if my goal is to consider women not subpar at science, I should reject any victory that doesn't come with a Christmas tree effect of other social liberties as well – that I should prevent women from being treated equal in one field because it is not all fields.

An "all I care for right now" statement is being judged on the same level as the driving rhetorical force of a decades old movement that isn't inified anyway. A micro assessment and macro assessment shouldn't be judged on the same merits. There is nothing in what I said and what Coidzor said that conflict. They both deal with the same topic using different words. Mine is operational, his is theoretical.

[Miriel]

Oh gods. See, this is why I avoid the community. Semantics give me a headache.
Well, when you are creating new words to describe newly accepted but very diverse realities, you sort of have to define what these new words mean. Not everyone has the same definition, but in the end it really doesn't matter, because the "community" has the same broad goal: total acceptance of and equity for all gender-variant or non-conforming people

EDIT:
@ Lord Raziere: Glad to be of service :smallsmile: Until otherwise noted, you are trans as far as I'm concerned.

(Just to clarify: Now, I do feel strongly as a woman. But I didn't really before transition. I just felt wrong and broken. Now, by being a woman, I am happy. Therefore, I am a woman, because that's how I can be happy.)


That's true. But in this context, that is advocate for an All or Nothing response; you are saying that if my goal is to consider women not subpar at science, I should reject any victory that doesn't come with a Christmas tree effect of other social liberties as well – that I should prevent women from being treated equal in one field because it is not all fields.

An "all I care for right now" statement is being judged on the same level as the driving rhetorical force of a decades old movement that isn't inified anyway. A micro assessment and macro assessment shouldn't be judged on the same merits. There is nothing in what I said and what Coidzor said that conflict. They both deal with the same topic using different words. Mine is operational, his is theoretical.
Hum, maybe it's because I should get some sleep, but I'm not sure I understood.

[SiuiS]

Hum, maybe it's because I should get some sleep, but I'm not sure I understood.

Likely means I'm being a numpty. This whole tangent started off with the implications of thigs said, unsaid and how they were phrased; there is no good end to it. Explaining it just goes deep into interpretational rhetoric. No good can come out of that.

Bluh. English is hard.

[Arachu]

New article on transnormativity! (http://lucreziacontarini.com/2014/06/23/transnormativity-and-asd/) It's very personal, but it may be interesting, especially for trans people with Asperger's syndrome or similar issues. I know there are a few around...

I don't have Asperger's, but some parts of that sounded... Familiar. @.@

I've got memories going back to before I could walk. Aside from some that I always remember readily (like my first thought that I consciously noticed that I had or me pointing out that things looked blurry from certain angles, just before getting glasses), most of them are basically gone until something reminds me of them and they suddenly come back very clearly.

The reason I bring that up is, during every one of these memories I have always felt dysphoria to some extent. But I didn't know what it was - it was already familiar by the time I could've noticed - so I never really thought too hard about it. It didn't help that I also always had non-gender-related dysphoria, like depression and anxiety and whatever you'd call wishing that you weren't too heavy to run once in a while. It all just sort of blended together, and I didn't handle it very well... Basically, I was too busy distracting myself from it and blaming the universe when that didn't work to figure out what was up. But despite that, I still identified with girls on some level that I wasn't fully aware of.

And then puberty started and everything got quadratically worse within months. I dissociated a bunch, and ended up with an extra personality to shut my emotions down when they started getting out of hand... Er, long story short I noticed that I wasn't a guy during all of this but I was too busy holding myself together to notice that I was actually a girl. That took until I was like, 19 or 20.

When I did finally figure that out, I was finally able to start untangling everything else. That wasn't easy, and I couldn't have gotten far without help from everyone that was on the thread back then (especially someone I won't single out)... I'm still sorting some things out, but among other things I actually feel at least a little bit happy most of the time now. It's nice. :smallsmile:

What I bring it up for is, I both do and don't fit the narrative. So like, anytime I start explaining my gender to someone I also have to explain all of the stereotypes I happen to not fit, even without factoring in other stuff like my pansexuality. It's kind of annoying sometimes, but also a good way to point those stereotypes out and explain that they aren't always true so :smalltongue:


~Bianca

[Heliomance]

New article on transnormativity! (http://lucreziacontarini.com/2014/06/23/transnormativity-and-asd/) It's very personal, but it may be interesting, especially for trans people with Asperger's syndrome or similar issues. I know there are a few around...



Very interesting, and a lot of things that ring true for me in there. Thanks!

[Delusion]

So Kela (the institution handling welfare in Finland) has declining to pay for my therapy. Which sucks. A lot. If I can't get my parents to play for it that means I can't afford my therapist and the therapy has been my last hope of recovering from anixety.

Their reason's for not paying? They do not think that this is the right time for me to go to psychotherapy. One of the reasons listed for that is that I am transitioning atm. Which has increased my happiness and given me strenght needed to start dealing with my anxiety. But of course it means that normal psychotherapy wouldn't help, says someone who has never met me...

[Miriel]

So Kela (the institution handling welfare in Finland) has declining to pay for my therapy. Which sucks. A lot. If I can't get my parents to play for it that means I can't afford my therapist and the therapy has been my last hope of recovering from anixety.

Their reason's for not paying? They do not think that this is the right time for me to go to psychotherapy. One of the reasons listed for that is that I am transitioning atm. Which has increased my happiness and given me strenght needed to start dealing with my anxiety. But of course it means that normal psychotherapy wouldn't help, says someone who has never met me...
... That's ridiculous. *hug*

Hurray for denial of services to trans people...

[Heliomance]

Ugh. De-hairing your legs - by any method - is just so tedious! There's so much surface area to cover, and the angles are awkward, so you miss bits, then you have to go over the bits you missed, then you spot more missed spots, and you have to tease out the ingrown hairs from last time, and...

Bleh. Takes too long.

[Irish Musician]

Ugh. De-hairing your legs - by any method - is just so tedious! There's so much surface area to cover, and the angles are awkward, so you miss bits, then you have to go over the bits you missed, then you spot more missed spots, and you have to tease out the ingrown hairs from last time, and...

Bleh. Takes too long.
Every time my wife shaves she misses at least 2-3 spots. Of course she only finds them after she is all dried off and sitting in the living room :smallamused:

[Irish Musician]

Good 'ol George posted this today, thought I should share it.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t1.0-9/484938_616628958366561_1631634980_n.jpg

[Philemonite]

Good 'ol George posted this today, thought I should share it.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t1.0-9/484938_616628958366561_1631634980_n.jpg

I love all the people here, but today I love you the most.:smallbiggrin:

[Irish Musician]

I love all the people here, but today I love you the most.:smallbiggrin:

http://i.imgur.com/9YL7u.png

[Philemonite]

:smallredface::smallredface::smallredface: