The Paranoid Caster : truth or illusion ?

[Seto]

I was reading the first page of this thread : http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?350045-How-d-you-build-a-Mage-Killer. I didn't want to derail it, so I started a new thread to discuss what I came across on it. Specifically, this :


The biggest challenge with killing a wizard isn't the actual combat (though that's tough too). No, you have to track down, get to, and pin down a person who is so paranoid modern psychology could use them as a case study. How will you know where the wizard is? Gather Information? What wizard doesn't walk around with alter or disguise self to guard their identity? Even if you manage to find the location of their lonely secluded tower how will you get past the dozens of traps, bound creatures, and gods know what else to even get close to the inner sanctum? How many invisible prismatic walls can you run through before you fail a save? What about that wall of force in your way? And once you're there, how do you stop them from escaping? How do you deal with a character that has multiple layers of contingencies and defenses beyond their spell slots for that day?

I know this is a pretty well-known trope, and there's the Tippy quote about the paranoid 20th-level Wizard and whatnot, but... really ? I mean, I can get behind why some Wizards look paranoid. The Wizard has a lot of options (Contingency, etc.), he'd be foolish to not make use of them, and not put some prismatic walls in his castle. But they're just that, options. Not necessities. Just like every King doesn't permanently have 150 powerful fighters protecting him, even though he could, not every Wizard (and certainly not the default Wizard) needs to have 50+ contingency plans, and it'd be just as foolish to assume that. I feel like that's not only PC mentality, but even paranoid-optimizer-PC mentality (I have nothing against optimizers, just pointing out that not everyone uses every option they have, and using every option should not be the assumed, average, state).

Why does everyone always assume that a high-level caster is paranoid as hell ? (Mostly Wizards... I see a lot less about paranoid Sorcerers, Clerics or Druids). And doesn't that just wave away interesting opportunities to roleplay your Wizard character ? Because I know that if I was able to stop time with a thought, I'd have a God complex. I'd probably suffer from massive overconfidence and recklessness. Certainly not paranoia.

[Urist]

The reason most wizards are presumed to be paranoid is because the overconfident ones got murdered, either by adventure or by wizardly rivals, before they reached a high enough level to matter. Think about the power available to a paranoid wizard for a second: they can divine the future, identify threats before they happen, teleport to anywhere in the world where that threat is going to happen, and nuke it before it has a chance to do whatever threatening thing it does. Now, that does require a certain level of intellect, and knowledge of how spells fit together to create scry and die. But wizards are more often than not smarter than the average genius, and they would undoubtedly, even in character, realize the powers both arrayed against them and at their disposal. Unless they have no enemies (unlikely) or are suicidal (also unlikely if they've gotten this far) the only rational response is to be a paranoid nutjob.

And of course, if they don't do that, some other powerful murderhobo will probably arrive to gank them and steal their stuff. :D

[With a box]

They are basically walking(or flying or teleporting) SSBN witch can destroy the world
He should have nuclear silo level security, if not higher

[Amphetryon]

Why does everyone always assume that a high-level caster is paranoid as hell ? (Mostly Wizards... I see a lot less about paranoid Sorcerers, Clerics or Druids). And doesn't that just wave away interesting opportunities to roleplay your Wizard character ? Because I know that if I was able to stop time with a thought, I'd have a God complex. I'd probably suffer from massive overconfidence and recklessness. Certainly not paranoia.
In D&D terms, a Character (OP is not a Character) suffering from massive overconfidence and recklessness is probably represented by low WIS. It is definitely possible to create a Wizard with a low WIS - they get Alertness for free and have a good Will save, after all - but it's not generally necessary or recommended.

For reasons that a high-level caster SHOULD be paranoid, see posts above this. . . and likely those to follow.

[Segev]

I think the crucial point that hasn't yet been brought up is that most high-level wizards under discussion on these boards are presumed to be PCs or the peers of PCs. This means they're actually in an even smaller category than "high-level characters" or even "high-level wizards:" they're high-level adventurers.

Adventurers get to high level by surviving the most fiendish, dangerous, devious, malign, and horrific encounters with monsters, traps, political figures, curses, and the hardships of uncivilized environs (and if you think that's minor, consider the game Oregon Trail and how it wasn't really exaggerating).

Adventurers, in fiction in particular, tend to be crazy prepared, just because they've come across so many situations where having this preparation would have saved lives or made life so much easier. They're like old-time Mountain Men: extremely adept at living in harsh circumstances, but likely more than a little "weird" in civilized society. (Bards and other social characters are an exception, and they often rely on some pretty potent techniques to avoid having these rough edges show.)

The "crazy prepared" wizard is paranoid only to those who are not familiar with the kinds of threats he has faced.

The NPC wizard who does NOT take these precautions, who thinks them excessive or feels himself invincible, likely has not been an adventurer - or at least hasn't done so in many many levels - and thus hasn't faced the constant life-threatening hazards of that life.

To really see where these behaviors come from, alter the expectations of the players and see how they respond. Lower the life-threatening drama and up the social interactions, and you'll see an entirely different focus. Enforce the harsh realities of exposure, starvation, and the other hazards of travel through the wilderness, and watch the "crazy preparedness" of the ranger and fighter and even the cleric step up to handle those inconveniences and life-threatening circumstances.

Adventurers face hardship and danger; it only makes sense they'd react to it by preparing for it.

[Darthor]

I was reading the first page of this thread : http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?350045-How-d-you-build-a-Mage-Killer. I didn't want to derail it, so I started a new thread to discuss what I came across on it. Specifically, this :



I know this is a pretty well-known trope, and there's the Tippy quote about the paranoid 20th-level Wizard and whatnot, but... really ? I mean, I can get behind why some Wizards look paranoid. The Wizard has a lot of options (Contingency, etc.), he'd be foolish to not make use of them, and not put some prismatic walls in his castle. But they're just that, options. Not necessities. Just like every King doesn't permanently have 150 powerful fighters protecting him, even though he could, not every Wizard (and certainly not the default Wizard) needs to have 50+ contingency plans, and it'd be just as foolish to assume that. I feel like that's not only PC mentality, but even paranoid-optimizer-PC mentality (I have nothing against optimizers, just pointing out that not everyone uses every option they have, and using every option should not be the assumed, average, state).

Why does everyone always assume that a high-level caster is paranoid as hell ? (Mostly Wizards... I see a lot less about paranoid Sorcerers, Clerics or Druids). And doesn't that just wave away interesting opportunities to roleplay your Wizard character ? Because I know that if I was able to stop time with a thought, I'd have a God complex. I'd probably suffer from massive overconfidence and recklessness. Certainly not paranoia.

It's not that all the wizards in the world are paranoid, the problem is: The few that are worth hunting are, and boy....they are good at that. :)

[NichG]

I've never really seen 'the paranoid caster' in any real game, not to any degree even remotely close to the sorts of stuff people suggest regularly for high level casters on these forums. The fact is, in most games characters far weaker than the full casters can survive without a sweat, so there's very little real pressure on the players of casters to be paranoid. If something untoward happens, they're generally the best equipped to deal with it without even doing any sorts of special preparation.

I have seen paranoid players, but that's a feature of the player, not the caster. They're just as paranoid when playing a fighter as a wizard. And often if they play the paranoid wizard, it goes in very different directions than what has been suggested on these forums - they cast fewer spells 'in case they need them later', rather than putting more of their resources into contingencies, defensive buffs and the like.

As far as NPC wizards, 'the paranoid wizard' is a particular trope, but its not the only trope and there are plenty of examples of NPC wizards in actual games who aren't paranoid. Generally, for an NPC, belonging to that trope is bad - its like hanging out a sign in front of your lair 'adventurers, I'm a boss fight, come kill me'. Adventurers will pass over the 'wandering scholar' and beeline straight for the guy who has ensconced himself in a three-level extraplanar living dungeon.

[Kurald Galain]

Most of it isn't paranoia per se. It's about portraying really really smart people. A high-level wizard easily has an intelligence of 25 or more; depending on how you measure intelligence, this could be anything from "well above the smartest person you know OOC", to "completely off the charts by human standards". No offense meant to players, of course, but the whole point of a 25+ intelligence is that no player (that I know of) is anywhere near that level, in the same sense that no player (that I know of) is anywhere near 25 strength either.

So how do you portray that in fiction? Well, one common way of doing it is that, whenever players make a (reasonably straightforward) plan to take him down, you can retroactively decide that he saw that coming well in advance, because he's just that smart. He's not being paranoid, he just saw it coming. How did he do that? Well, if you also had a 25 intelligence, then it would make perfect sense to you.

[sleepyphoenixx]

While most NPC wizards don't go as far as people on this forum a certain level of paranoia is pretty much a given for high level casters.
A few traps, golems, and warding spells like Mage's Private Sanctum are probably found in every wizards tower if the DM builds his world logically.
The higher the level the more you can add on to those precautions, until you arrive at Undermountain or something similar (or even worse).

High level clerics usually hang out in temples when they're not adventuring. Depending on the deity some of those easily qualify as fortresses, too.

Even high level druids probably put some effort into their homebase, surrounding it with dangerous creatures and nearly impenetrable wilderness.

The reason that wizards are usually brought up is that their spell list lends itself extremely well to that kind of playstyle. That doesn't mean the other T1 casters aren't capable of it, too.
Or that it isn't a necessity to get to a high level and stay alive there, to varying extent depending on the world you live in.

[Vaz]

Without magic boosters, the absolute maximum, by RAW, that a human can be is 26. And that is oldest guy who has enough experience to be level 20. And outside of getting experience, they are limited to 21.

That is your Einstein type character, your Stephen Hawking.

We are talking about Characters, who by virtue of their abilities and magic equipment are able to get 39+.

Consider typical fantasy tropes; the cartoon sword in the stone, where Merlin has vast power, but his ability is probably along wthe lines of Polymorph, a 4th level spell, accessible by 7th level.

If you want to talk about having warmages etc, they are probably no higher 5th level. They don't need to be shooting out Save or Dies to kill extinction level events like the awakening of a Great Wyrm, instead they are involved in conflicts where the average soldier would be considered lucky to survive the first Fireball.

Vampires and liches are often considered the archetypal Undead bad guys, requiring 5th level and 11th level respectively, IIRC. A 5th level vampire is capable of maintaining a coven of 5 dominated individuals, all of which are likely to be of as similar level as he; perhaps the greatest soldier in the land, or a powerful warmage or high priest. These re typical threats for 5th level opponents, and the party needs to be capable of defeating them.

Should something happen like reign of fire, with extinction level events occuring, whether it is the coming of a Pit Fiend to the mortal realm, or a Great Wyrm dragon awakening, then such opponents also have equal preparedness.

For example, a Red Dragon awakens. Wizard it, recognises that red dragons breath fire, prepares fire protection. A red dragon realizes wizard is protected so either learns spells of another element, or gets breath substitution. A red dragon breathing a cone of cold, or electrostatic discharge might catch wizard unprepared.

However the wizard realises thos so prepares defences against those.

The drsagon might realise said spells are too short in duration, so flies off and begings scry and die tactics on the wizard at home. The wizard is intelligent enough to realize that it is at risk, so protects his tower accordingly.

It is basically the most complicated game of chess ever, to the extent that many people consider a high level Wizard duel to be no more than both having a cup of tea and having a theoretical discussion over how each move would be countered.

[Segev]

It is basically the most complicated game of chess ever, to the extent that many people consider a high level Wizard duel to be no more than both having a cup of tea and having a theoretical discussion over how each move would be countered.

And that's how Magic: The Gathering got started.

[Seto]

I've never really seen 'the paranoid caster' in any real game, not to any degree even remotely close to the sorts of stuff people suggest regularly for high level casters on these forums. The fact is, in most games characters far weaker than the full casters can survive without a sweat, so there's very little real pressure on the players of casters to be paranoid. If something untoward happens, they're generally the best equipped to deal with it without even doing any sorts of special preparation.

Yeah, I guess I'm most used to the kind of games described here, so I was writing with them in mind. But you all make valid points.

[ericgrau]

More of anything useful is rarely a bad thing. And if it's easy enough, I don't see why any experienced person wouldn't. I think the bigger issue is being able to put in the effort for such a venture. Because while a caster can prepare for anything, he can't prepare for everything, and the two often get confused. Same reason paranoia can go too far IRL.

MtG does remind me of one related thing. "Dies to removal". Everything in MtG can be eliminated and often people will deride a card for this reason. Which is stupid not only because it applies to everything, but also because most (not all) removal are pretty bad cards. Why? Because you only have so much space in your hand. You can make control decks, but they have options that are much more general purpose & synergistic than straight-up removal spam.

So it's not about should you prepare. You absolutely should. It's a matter of how well can you, and is each option worth the trouble.

[the_other_gm]

as others have said, it's really more about the lifestyle then anything else.

i've only played one character up to 20. he was a warlock and by the end of the years-spanning campaign he's had met several gods, was allied with a demon lord and aided in the pre-meditated murder of a second demon lord.

he survived wars on extra-planar scales, fought entities that had no right existing in as many theoretical dimensions as they did and went toe-to-toe to creatures described in the creation mythos of a race or two.

and by the end of it he was still dealing with mortals that could potentially take his life or the several powerful magic items in his possession.

we're talking about someone who is effectively as smart as einstein/neil degrass tyson with the unnatural survivability of john mclane, resourcefulness of bruce wayne and public relations/monetary resources of tony stark.

by the end of the game he was one of the foremost scholars on extra-planar AND arcane studies. if you could mind control this guy, which is a technical possibility, you end up with a VERY hard to take down man who is a font of destructive magical energies and very precise knowledge on how to use those energies, both due to exact information on the theory behind them and many, many practical experiences wielding them.

under the control of someone else, who might not have philanthropic bends if mind-control is in his go-to repertoire of problem solving.

a high level wizard takes precautions to protect himself not just because he's crazy prepared against the things he's faced and familiar with, but also because it's dangerous to those around him not to, where "dangerous" can be anything from "this street" to "our town" to "our country" or even "the multiverse".

[Telonius]

Wizards have enemies, and the more powerful the wizard, the more powerful the enemies.


An ancient proverb summed it up: when a wizard is tired of looking for broken glass in his dinner, it ran, he is tired of life.

[Darkweave31]

I don't think anything I mentioned is really outside the realm of common wizard tropes. In fantasy you'll often have the wizard or other powerful beings disguise their identity when interacting directly with the world. It keeps the fangirls away and the assassins at bay. As for traps and guards in a wizard's tower, again it is a very common trope. What wizard would just expect their powerful magical items and secret research projects to stay safe from thieves and rivals? As for escaping I don't know any adventuring party without a plan GTFO. It's just that in the Wizard's case she just teleported to the other side of the world or gated onto her private demiplane, far out of the reach of any being that could not do the same.

Wizards have access to a huge resource in the form of spells. Who, with the intelligence to cast those spells, wouldn't make use of them in at least the intended ways, if not more creative ones?

[NichG]

a high level wizard takes precautions to protect himself not just because he's crazy prepared against the things he's faced and familiar with, but also because it's dangerous to those around him not to, where "dangerous" can be anything from "this street" to "our town" to "our country" or even "the multiverse".

That's one particular character. Another character could, with the same intellect, decide 'I have never been defeated; I'm a mortal and gods have fallen before me, and I wasn't even trying hard. It seems that no one can defeat me, so why should I need to be particularly careful?'.

Or 'My brilliance is taking what I have and using it in ways no one could have predicted ahead of time. Put me in a dangerous situation with limited and particular resources, and I'll come up with the perfect way to use them. Paranoia is playing against my strength, investing too much of my flexibility in 'what if' scenarios - whatever comes, I'll take it with whatever I've got at hand.'

Or even 'Why would anyone want to attack me? I've just been Boccob's librarian for the last three millennia. Sure I've learned a few things and I have a much deeper understanding of magic than other people, but this is the library of a god-wizard. If I'm attacked here, I'm already screwed.'

Or 'Hey, I didn't become a powerful wizard to sit in my tower afraid of things. The world is full of fun stuff and I can reach out and grasp it at will - I'm not going to waste days on binary search divinations, I'm just going to go out there and live life to the fullest! If I die, my pal the cleric will rez me anyhow.'

Or 'Yeah, you want to come at me? Come at me! I'll turn you to ash and erase your entire family history from the timeline.'

Paranoia is a particular choice, not an inevitability. And based on actual games, its not a very common choice either.

[Seto]

I don't think anything I mentioned is really outside the realm of common wizard tropes. In fantasy you'll often have the wizard or other powerful beings disguise their identity when interacting directly with the world. It keeps the fangirls away and the assassins at bay. As for traps and guards in a wizard's tower, again it is a very common trope. What wizard would just expect their powerful magical items and secret research projects to stay safe from thieves and rivals? As for escaping I don't know any adventuring party without a plan GTFO. It's just that in the Wizard's case she just teleported to the other side of the world or gated onto her private demiplane, far out of the reach of any being that could not do the same.

Wizards have access to a huge resource in the form of spells. Who, with the intelligence to cast those spells, wouldn't make use of them in at least the intended ways, if not more creative ones?

Granted. But you've come a rather long way from "so paranoid modern psychology would make them a case study" to "who wouldn't do that ?" (Which was my original point). I guess it really depends on the kind of game and the level of immersion/danger/power involved. Immersion : yeah, being a high-level Wizard attracts attention. Realistically you'd have to always be on your guard. But what if the DM decides it's best and more relaxing to everyone to sometimes let you be and not go at you with everything he's got, thus forcing you to be paranoid (even if it would be justifiable by realism) ? Power : In a low-to-mid-level world, if being a 20th-level Wizard means that you are one of the most powerful persons in the multiverse, barring deities, then chances are that most everyone will leave you alone. Danger is the common factor between the two.

And that's talking about PCs. My question is meant to encompass Wizards more generally, as I see the issue of paranoia is often brought up about NPCs, especially BBEGs.

[Malroth]

if you are 20th lv and the most powerful mortal in your universe then there are at least 5 CR19 foes with access to true resurection and Wish who know your tricks and have a grudge against you. There will also be a minimum of30 CR18 foes also with likely access to True Resurection and Wish with at least a passing familiarity with you and might consider attacking you and taking your stuff to be worthwhile. There will also be at least 180 CR 17 threats with native access to 9ths and 1080 CR 16 threats with access to 8ths natively and who can still afford scrolls and castings of true resurection and wish

[ryu]

Granted. But you've come a rather long way from "so paranoid modern psychology would make them a case study" to "who wouldn't do that ?" (Which was my original point). I guess it really depends on the kind of game and the level of immersion/danger/power involved. Immersion : yeah, being a high-level Wizard attracts attention. Realistically you'd have to always be on your guard. But what if the DM decides it's best and more relaxing to everyone to sometimes let you be and not go at you with everything he's got, thus forcing you to be paranoid (even if it would be justifiable by realism) ? Power : In a low-to-mid-level world, if being a 20th-level Wizard means that you are one of the most powerful persons in the multiverse, barring deities, then chances are that most everyone will leave you alone. Danger is the common factor between the two.

And that's talking about PCs. My question is meant to encompass Wizards more generally, as I see the issue of paranoia is often brought up about NPCs, especially BBEGs.

Thing is given access to level 20 wizard power who on earth wouldn't become something worthy of a case study in modern psychology? Stop and consider for a moment that you've just been handed near limitless power. Now imagine that without applying it properly a standard bullet still has a very real chance of killing you. Now imagine that other powerful mages around the world have active motivation to attack any unprepared mage for his spellbook. Also countless forms of thief and assassin want your throat as you sleep just so they can sell all your magical swag for epic profit.

[dascarletm]

Thing is given access to level 20 wizard power who on earth wouldn't become something worthy of a case study in modern psychology? Stop and consider for a moment that you've just been handed near limitless power. Now imagine that without applying it properly a standard bullet still has a very real chance of killing you. Now imagine that other powerful mages around the world have active motivation to attack any unprepared mage for his spellbook. Also countless forms of thief and assassin want your throat as you sleep just so they can sell all your magical swag for epic profit.

Well apparently all the other mages set a president of being neigh unkillable, so non-mages are not going to do anything. All the other mages don't need my spellbook. They can buy all the spells they want using other means. Hell, I would expect that attacking another caster is far more dangerous even if they arn't prepared than just purchasing the spells in question. If they're so paranoid then they'd be irrationally afraid of fighting other mages, even if it looks like they have the upper hand. (What if he's making it look like he is a weak target, just so I'll attack him?!?!?)

As for thieves and assassins, simple low level spells give you plenty of safe extra-dimensional safety.

[ryu]

Well apparently all the other mages set a president of being neigh unkillable, so non-mages are not going to do anything. All the other mages don't need my spellbook. They can buy all the spells they want using other means. Hell, I would expect that attacking another caster is far more dangerous even if they arn't prepared than just purchasing the spells in question. If they're so paranoid then they'd be irrationally afraid of fighting other mages, even if it looks like they have the upper hand. (What if he's making it look like he is a weak target, just so I'll attack him?!?!?)

As for thieves and assassins, simple low level spells give you plenty of safe extra-dimensional safety.

You can't assume every mage is as rational as you are. You can assume the vast, and I do mean VAST, majority are on a roughly even keel there, but even one statistically anomalous crazy-aggressive one is all that it takes to justify the proper measures. Considering quite a few wizards plan on living for either eternity or at least a few hundred years depending on species these anomalous dangers become a lot more real in the grand scheme of things.

[Flickerdart]

Without magic boosters, the absolute maximum, by RAW, that a human can be is 26. And that is oldest guy who has enough experience to be level 20. And outside of getting experience, they are limited to 21.

That is your Einstein type character, your Stephen Hawking.
Prodigy template adds another +2 on to that (and a +4 to checks), so the smartest possible level 1 human can hit an effective 31 (though we have no evidence that Einstein is the smartest that a person is capable of being). Adventurer wizards are still smarter than that, but the gap is smaller than you'd think (Prodigy is +2 LA, and no PC would ever take it).

[firebrandtoluc]

One does not need to be paranoid to be prepared. Some of the best protections are actually pretty simple to get set up. Mind Blank is 24 hour duration for example. So is Mage's Private Sanctum. Greater Anticipate Teleportation as well. Many more have hour per level durations. There is certainly a gray area between juicy target and paranoid.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Prodigy template adds another +2 on to that (and a +4 to checks), so the smartest possible level 1 human can hit an effective 31 (though we have no evidence that Einstein is the smartest that a person is capable of being). Adventurer wizards are still smarter than that, but the gap is smaller than you'd think (Prodigy is +2 LA, and no PC would ever take it).
That's already included the breakdown is

18 base +3 age +2 paragon +2 prodigy +1 level assuming e6 world or at least one you can be level 4 in.

[Flickerdart]

That's already included the breakdown is

18 base +3 age +2 paragon +2 prodigy +1 level assuming e6 world or at least one you can be level 4 in.
Your original post doesn't make sense then - you claim that "without gaining experience" only 21 is possible, while the math you just gave shows 25 before level benefits.

[Techwarrior]

At the very least Paragon classses only gain attributes at level 3, so that reduces it down to 23 with no levels included.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Your original post doesn't make sense then - you claim that "without gaining experience" only 21 is possible, while the math you just gave shows 25 before level benefits.

I'm a different person but I believe the 26 was reached in the same way that I posted.

[aleucard]

That's one particular character. Another character could, with the same intellect, decide 'I have never been defeated; I'm a mortal and gods have fallen before me, and I wasn't even trying hard. It seems that no one can defeat me, so why should I need to be particularly careful?'.

Or 'My brilliance is taking what I have and using it in ways no one could have predicted ahead of time. Put me in a dangerous situation with limited and particular resources, and I'll come up with the perfect way to use them. Paranoia is playing against my strength, investing too much of my flexibility in 'what if' scenarios - whatever comes, I'll take it with whatever I've got at hand.'

Or even 'Why would anyone want to attack me? I've just been Boccob's librarian for the last three millennia. Sure I've learned a few things and I have a much deeper understanding of magic than other people, but this is the library of a god-wizard. If I'm attacked here, I'm already screwed.'

Or 'Hey, I didn't become a powerful wizard to sit in my tower afraid of things. The world is full of fun stuff and I can reach out and grasp it at will - I'm not going to waste days on binary search divinations, I'm just going to go out there and live life to the fullest! If I die, my pal the cleric will rez me anyhow.'

Or 'Yeah, you want to come at me? Come at me! I'll turn you to ash and erase your entire family history from the timeline.'

Paranoia is a particular choice, not an inevitability. And based on actual games, its not a very common choice either.


Part of the problem is that, by virtue of being a level 20 Wizard, you WILL be known and noticed by several people of at least equal power to you. The number of reasons someone could have for trying to kill you is nigh-infinite; trying to convince yourself that nobody would have a reason to do so is the kind of stupidity that explains why so few people make it that far. As anyone who knows the relevance of the phrase 'murderhobo' will tell you, there are large groups that don't even need the reason of loot to try and pop your squishy head, and that's ignoring the absolutely absurd amount of loot you have handy just by your spell book alone. If you aren't prepared to defend yourself to the best of your ability at all times, then the only one to blame for when your seal of freshness is revoked is yourself.

[facelessminion]

There is a very simple reason for high level mages to be 'paranoid' in the sense of being prepared for high-level problems:

Any mage that is unprepared gets turned into paste when a well-prepared tier 3 reminds them that while tier 3s arent as versatile, they are far better at applied damage.

[Flickerdart]

Any mage that is unprepared gets turned into paste when a well-prepared tier 3 reminds them that while tier 3s arent as versatile, they are far better at applied damage.
I would recommend you re-evaluate that statement after a more thorough reading of the definitions of tiers.

The real reason that T1 casters tend to be well-protected is that magic is awesome and by level 20 you have so much of it that even the guys that are totally full of themselves are going to be covered in the stuff. Why would I go out looking like me when I can look like anybody I want? Spend a few minutes each day alter self-ing yourself into whatever supermodel catches your eye. When you can move between continents and planes in the blink of an eye, and reshape materials at your whim, why in the world would you settle for a suburban wizard's tower from a catalogue when you can have a sky fortress made of fire? Cover yourself in a field of unbreakable force so that you never again have to deal with stubbing your toe on furniture, or annoying insect bites. In fact, talking to regular mortal people is so beneath you that you prefer sending emissaries to do your chores for you (disguised to look like you, so that the rubes don't notice). Conquer kingdoms from the comfort of a living room couch, or have a nice Astral Projection-induced nap while another body does all the work, and once you awake you have none of the fatigue and grime and general grossness that adventuring brings.

[facelessminion]

I would recommend you re-evaluate that statement after a more thorough reading of the definitions of tiers.

The real reason that T1 casters tend to be well-protected is that magic is awesome and by level 20 you have so much of it that even the guys that are totally full of themselves are going to be covered in the stuff. Why would I go out looking like me when I can look like anybody I want? Spend a few minutes each day alter self-ing yourself into whatever supermodel catches your eye. When you can move between continents and planes in the blink of an eye, and reshape materials at your whim, why in the world would you settle for a suburban wizard's tower from a catalogue when you can have a sky fortress made of fire? Cover yourself in a field of unbreakable force so that you never again have to deal with stubbing your toe on furniture, or annoying insect bites. In fact, talking to regular mortal people is so beneath you that you prefer sending emissaries to do your chores for you (disguised to look like you, so that the rubes don't notice). Conquer kingdoms from the comfort of a living room couch, or have a nice Astral Projection-induced nap while another body does all the work, and once you awake you have none of the fatigue and grime and general grossness that adventuring brings.

I fail to see how evading detection by hiding your true form, protecting yourself through constantly keeping up high level magic, and popping steadily between planes are not signs of properly-ingrained, high level caster paranoia.

[ryu]

I would recommend you re-evaluate that statement after a more thorough reading of the definitions of tiers.

The real reason that T1 casters tend to be well-protected is that magic is awesome and by level 20 you have so much of it that even the guys that are totally full of themselves are going to be covered in the stuff. Why would I go out looking like me when I can look like anybody I want? Spend a few minutes each day alter self-ing yourself into whatever supermodel catches your eye. When you can move between continents and planes in the blink of an eye, and reshape materials at your whim, why in the world would you settle for a suburban wizard's tower from a catalogue when you can have a sky fortress made of fire? Cover yourself in a field of unbreakable force so that you never again have to deal with stubbing your toe on furniture, or annoying insect bites. In fact, talking to regular mortal people is so beneath you that you prefer sending emissaries to do your chores for you (disguised to look like you, so that the rubes don't notice). Conquer kingdoms from the comfort of a living room couch, or have a nice Astral Projection-induced nap while another body does all the work, and once you awake you have none of the fatigue and grime and general grossness that adventuring brings.

Is it unusual in any way that I broke out the posh voice to read that one?

[Flickerdart]

Is it unusual in any way that I broke out the posh voice to read that one?
You should generally do that when reading my posts. Something like John Hodgman's deranged millionaire character on the Daily Show.


I fail to see how evading detection by hiding your true form, protecting yourself through constantly keeping up high level magic, and popping steadily between planes are not signs of properly-ingrained, high level caster paranoia.
Well that's sort of the point - you don't need to be a paranoid grouch to have these sort of things going for you, you just need to be a magic user that actually uses magic (unlike the quite common "mage hunter" assumption of a spellcaster who seems to have never seen a spellbook in his life until 6 seconds ago).

[Emperor Tippy]

To make it to ECL 20 with a vanilla race requires that you have overcome something on the order of two hundred serious, lethal and/or debilitating, challenges. Now do that without making friends, allies, and enemies. Do that without becoming an entrenched political power. Do that without becoming a major financial power.

But lets say that you have managed to do all of that. You are still a high level caster. You have massive personal power in a very elementary fashion. A level 20 Wizard who decides that he doesn't like that the view from his tower is of a mountain forest instead of a tropical beach can change that view with only a small modicum of effort. A high level caster who decides that he dislikes a nations policies can overthrow that polity in a day.

High level character of all kinds (but especially casters) have POWER. Whether the individual has any interest in the wider world or doing anything with that power is irrelevant, they have it and so they become a piece in the great game.

This ignores the fact that you do not become a high level character by accident. If you aren't born with it, you don't gain the power to casually level nations without a major concerted effort on your part to gain that power. People don't make that kind of effort and take those kinds of risks without a perceived need and desire to have and use that power to do something.

With all of that out of the way you get into the issue of how easy it is to kill an unprotected high level character.

A level 19 vanilla Sorcerer with 18 Charisma can conjure and bind 6 Pit Fiends with an hours worth of effort. If you annoy such an individual to an extent sufficient for him to be willing to invest a relatively minor part of a days effort in trying to kill you then you will find that half a dozen Pit Fiends have suddenly teleported in all around you and started attacking you. Perhaps with another dozen or so extraplanar entities in support.

Or perhaps a high level Bard runs the Great Wheel News Network and Gossip Hour (the most viewed show on the Wheel) likes to unveil the secrets of the powers of the planes for all and sundry to see. You better be protected against divination of all kinds if you don't want everyone to know everything that you are up to.

Or look at Mind Rape. If you aren't immune to mind affecting spells and fail a single save then you might have had your mind rewritten without you ever even knowing about it.

Leave any hair, blood, or skin samples around? Well then those Ice Assassins might well be a bitch to deal with when your enemies send them after you.

Walking around in an unsecured location? Well then maybe someone drops a fireball hot enough to incinerate a great wyrm red dragon onto your head from a mile away and invisible. You are dead without ever knowing it unless you have taken steps in advance.

Making yourself truly safe is really not possible in D&D. What you can do is make yourself safe against all but the most extreme efforts and able to come back from even most of those efforts. If you don't take at least some significant steps to protect yourself then you will find that you are suddenly the mind slave of some other entity that wanted a pet caster of world shaking power.

Worst than all of that though is the mental stats. A lower Int, lower Wis Sorcerer might not think things through and just act from his gut but a wizard or Cleric? Classes that are by definition either extremely intelligent and/or extremely wise aren't going to make those kinds of mistakes. They are going to think things through, they are going to run threat assessments, they are going to plan.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

"It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you."

Experience will teach any PC that they will get into numerous actually threatening scrapes. If they've been run through published material, or a reasonable facimile, many of these will be seemingly unprovoked and illogical ambushes.


I mean, I can get behind why some Wizards look paranoid. The Wizard has a lot of options (Contingency, etc.), he'd be foolish to not make use of them,

I agree with the sentiment thata wizard would be foolish to not use many of their low cost high reward defensive options. However, I'd posit that most of these wizards don't even look paranoid. They're players certainly do when they open up their binder and start telling you upfront about their characters preperations, but the wizard isn't openly presenting these defenses so they won't enter into anyone's judgement until they become relevent.

When they're actually relevent, are they paranoid or just smart? An outside observer might assume that a defense they saw once was specifically set up to defend against a threat that was forseen happening on the specific day rather than part of their "standard loadout". If they are labeled as paranoid after being saved by defenses that weren't percieved until they were relevent, it will probably be meant as a compliment.

Casual perception is very important to public opinion. Few people begrudge world leaders an elite force of men in suits that will throw themselves in front of bullets and detain people based on a reasonable suspicion of a threat to their charge and employing countersnipers, but wearing armor and being surrounded by guards in military uniforms carrying assault weapons on their home soil is generally percieved as the actions of a paranoid dictator.

[Erik Vale]

...
This thread seems to be proceeding well enough that I won't pop in to say anything other than:

And that's how Magic: The Gathering got started.

Retroactively true in my worlds etc etc. Of course, it will be in a more DnD esque form.