Chameleon or mystic theurge? [3.5]

[D4rkh0rus]

Given that each player builds them in a way that The chameleon gets access to 9th lvl spells (via sanctum spell/versatile caster/extra slot) and that the mystic theurge gets access to 9th lvl spells on both sides as well, which class would end up being a more versatile one?

[Glodart]

I don't know how to get access to 9th level spells with chameleon, but it also has other versatilities, so I'd say Chameleon

[sleepyphoenixx]

Chameleon gets access to any spell from any list, Ability Boon and various other benefits. Mystic Theurge gets spells from 2 lists and nothing else.
If your DM allows you to cheese your way into 9th level spells as a Chameleon it's superior in every way.

[Psyren]

Given that your max spell level in Chameleon is 6th I'm not sure how you're getting to 9th, but assuming you can do so then that is the better choice since you can simply combine arcane and divine foci and be a full theurge along with whatever else you got from your base class (e.g. skills from Rogue.)

[Doc_Maynot]

Or preferably, skills from Factotum

[D4rkh0rus]

Well, by 9th lvl chameleon spells is the whole "having an 8th lvl spell by means of sanctum spell and versatile spellcaster" then taking extra slot, which specifies "You gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotment, at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast." so you get a 7th lvl slot. you then repeat this for the 8th slot then the 9th slot. Or so goes the idea. correct me if Im wrong.

[Coventry]

One level lower than 6th level is 5th level, not 7th level.

[Turion]

Yes, and one level lower than 8th is 7th.

To put it another way:
6th level spell: apply sanctum spell feat
Cast in a sanctum. It's now 7th level spell, in a 6th level slot.
Prepare two of them, and use Versatile Spellcaster. Two 7th level spells get you one 8th.
Extra Slot gets you a 7th (one lower than you can cast).

Repeat to gain another 7th level slot, then bump the numbers up by one and repeat for 8ths and 9ths.

It's also pretty cheesy, requires you to have a fairly high casting stat (enough to get bonus 6th-level slots, which is admittedly not insanely expensive for a Chameleon) and eats up every single feat you get aside from the Chameleon floating feat and any flaws. There are a couple of other ways to pull it off, apparently.

[D4rkh0rus]

It's also pretty cheesy, requires you to have a fairly high casting stat (enough to get bonus 6th-level slots, which is admittedly not insanely expensive for a Chameleon) and eats up every single feat you get aside from the Chameleon floating feat and any flaws. There are a couple of other ways to pull it off, apparently.

Yes, artery clogging kind of cheesy too. but if such a thing is allowed, the dark chaos shuffle with the bought feats (magical locations and stuff) add in about 5-6 "extra" feats, heck they can be any feats.

[Chronos]

It's really going to depend on exactly how you got to dual-ninths in each class. You can't just say "the standard tricks", since all of the tricks for doing so are esoteric enough that you can't really call them standard.

That said, some food for thought:
1: Which build gets more of its top-level spells (say, 9th and 8th, maybe 7th) per day? A wiz/cler-based theurge would probably get more than a chameleon (if you somehow got enough levels of Mystic Theurge or equivalent classes), but if we're talking something like an ur-chord, it might swing back the other way.

2: Which build has a larger selection of spells? This is almost certainly going to be the chameleon, since the theurge build is probably limited to particular spell lists, and might be further limited by spells known if it's Sublime Chord.

3: What other base class abilities do you get? Chameleon certainly gets some (probably skills), but the theurge might, too, depending on how you do it.

4: Chameleon can eventually, effectively, get triple-focus: You do something like start the day arcane/divine, use all of your divine slots for long-duration buffs, and then swap your divine focus for stealth focus.

5: Chameleon gets that floating feat, which really is amazing. It's whatever item creation feat you want, while you're making an item. It's Extra Spell, to fill up your spellbook. If you're up for a bit of cheese (which it looks like you are), it's Shape Soulmeld, for ten melds that will continue to exist after you change the feat. It's whatever else you might discover will come in handy today that usually doesn't.

6: The theurge might (depending on how it's built) be SAD, while the chameleon is sure to be MAD. Though this is mitigated by the Ability Boon bonus.

All in all, I'd say that it looks like it leans pretty heavily towards the chameleon, unless the theurge gets many more ninths each day.

[Cruiser1]

which class would end up being a more versatile one?
Chameleon has crunch advantages already mentioned, but fluff-wise being a Chameleon is pretty restrictive (although if desired its fluff can give backstory opportunities or plot hooks):


"Every chameleon is trained at the School of Broad Horizons, also known by its students as Mimic Mansion. Even after you leave, you are not free of the Mimic Mansion. Your superiors expect you to report in regularly on your activities. Sometimes they require you to undertake assignments for them, usually with no explanation. But you always obey. Really, you have no choice

Some chameleons react poorly to news of their school’s real mission and refuse to handle illegal assignments. Salazar has ways to force their compliance, but these tactics sometimes fail, and a few chameleons have gone rogue. They are actively hunted by agents and recruiters and targeted for death on sight. Some of these rebels wander the world, using their talents as they see fit rather than as Salazar demands."

[bekeleven]

Yes, artery clogging kind of cheesy too. but if such a thing is allowed, the dark chaos shuffle with the bought feats (magical locations and stuff) add in about 5-6 "extra" feats, heck they can be any feats.

Oh man, I thought last week that this was illegal. Looking again it may not be, instead, it's just cheesy in two ways.

See, chameleons can't use their focuses to qualify for anything - feat, prestige class, whatever. However, the wording of extra slot is that the highest level spell you can cast isn't strictly a qualification (it requires only CL4), but something that determines the benefits you can gain.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, by 9th lvl chameleon spells is the whole "having an 8th lvl spell by means of sanctum spell and versatile spellcaster" then taking extra slot, which specifies "You gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotment, at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast." so you get a 7th lvl slot. you then repeat this for the 8th slot then the 9th slot. Or so goes the idea. correct me if Im wrong.

The problem comes in that the Chameleon's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1) focus has a clause:
You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.
... which means the trick doesn't actually work. But ignoring that...

Suppose we get a DM that tweaks the Mystic Theurge class so you can take 14 levels pre-epic, and the Chameleon 15, simply by extending the progressions. Further levels of Mystic Theurge get the exact same stuff as lower levels (+1 to both Arcane and Divine casting). The Chameleon advances according to pattern - for now, we'll just concern ourselves with the spells - you get a new spell level every other level (which starts at 0 per day), and the per-day at that spell level goes up by one per level until it caps at 4. Meaning the Chameleon's Spell Table looks like:



0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9


4
2
0









4
3
1









4
3
2
0








4
4
3
1








4
4
3
2
0







4
4
4
3
1







4
4
4
4
2
0






4
4
4
4
3
1






4
4
4
4
4
2
0





4
4
4
4
4
3
1





4
4
4
4
4
4
2
0




4
4
4
4
4
4
3
1




4
4
4
4
4
4
4
2
0



4
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
1



4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
2
0



And we'll assume that both characters take the 'obvious' entry. Wiz-3/Cleric-3/Mystic Theurge-14 for the MT, Factotum-5/Chameleon-15 for the Chameleon.

Given that set of house rules, and given those class entries, the relative advantages and disadvantages are as follows:
Spells per Day:
The MT gets considerably more spells per day (casts as a Wizard-17 and a Cleric-17 - which means two base 9ths on the Divine side, and one base 9th on the Arcane side (two with specialization, which hurts a lot less for a MT), vs. the Chameleon who gets 0 base 9ths of both.
Advantage: MT.

Spells Known:
The MT arguably gets some free spells known on the Arcane Side, and all Cleric spells known (plus two domains) on the Divine side. The Chameleon must obtain all spells on the Arcane side at some cost (be that adventuring, purchasing, stealing, or what-have-you), and gets ALL divine spells from any list on the Divine side, and while it definately costs... can use ANY arcane spell.
Advantage: Chameleon.

Caster Level:
The MT gets a caster level of 17 on each side (as high as 20 with Practised Spellcaster). The Chameleon had a caster level of 18 six levels ago (at Chameleon-9), and arguably has a caster level of 30 on each side if the DM doesn't fix that with his other house rules.
Advantage: Chameleon.

Class Features:
The MT Turns Undead as a Cleric-3 (3+Cha/day), has domain powers as a Cleric-3, has a familiar (if he didn't trade it) as a Wizard-3, and Scribe Scroll as a fixed bonus feat, mostly-useless armor & shield proficiency (can't use them due to ASF). The Chameleon can turn Undead, rage, use Evasion, Smite, or Sneak Attack 3 (possibly more, if the DM extended that table too) times per day, gets stacking boosts to a few stats of his choice, gets some useful bonuses to skills, gets a 2nd level Factotum spell-like ability (total factotum 2 spell-like abilities), Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, Trapfinding, Int to most physical skill checks, Cunning Defense, Cunning Strike, and Opportunistic Peity.
Advantage: Chameleon.

BAB:
Under fractional BAB, the MT has a BAB of 10.75; under normal, 10. The Chameleon under Fractonal BAB has a BAB of 15, and under standard has +14.
Advantage: Chameleon.

Saves:
The MT has 3 levels of Good Fort, and 20 levels of good Will; the Chameleon has 5 levels of Good Reflex... and that's it.
Advantage: MT.

Skills:
The MT has 2+Int/level for the entire progression, and a useful list of class skils. The Chameleon gets 6+Int for five levels (including 1st), and 4+Int for 15 levels... and ALL skills as class skills.
Advantage: Chameleon.

Item Crafting:
The MT must take the various item crafting feats (except for Scribe Scroll), and can qualify for any of them. The Chameleon can use the floating bonus feat for crafting on off-days, so doesn't have the same feat expenditure... however, as the aptitude focus can't be used to qualify for things, the Chameleon has to qualify for item crafting feats based on the Chameleon's Factotum levels only (CL 5 - 9 with Practised Spellcaster), which is good for Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Wand, and Craft Magic Arms and Armor (with Practised Spellcaster, can also grab Craft Rod [but not Forge Ring or Craft Staff]).
Advantage: I'm calling this in favour of the Chameleon

Hit Points:
The MT has 3d4, 3d8, and 14d6 + 20*Con; the Chameleon gets 20d8+20*Con.
Advantage: Chameleon

Metamagic Mitigation:
The MT has Divine Metamagic avaialable, as well as the Sudden X feats. The Chameleon, not so much (can't qualify for most such things).
Advantage: MT


Of 10 different categories examined, I gave the advantage to the Chameleon in 7 of them, and the Mystic Theurge in 3. However, that's assuming a particular set of house rules. If my assumptions on the house rules to make it work do not apply, then neither does the analysis. If you weight each category evenly, then the Chameleon is better. If you don't... the Chameleon is probably still better, but obviously, it'll depend on the weighting.

[Gemini476]

I'm not entirely sure that you can get dual ninths as a Chameleon, or at least not with Versatile Spellcaster/Sanctum Spell.
Or, well, let me see.

As a tenth-level Chameleon, use two sixth-level slots to cast a Heightened Sanctum Whatever - Magic Missile, perhaps. Let's say that you are also a Naenhoon Illumian so you can Heighten the spell yet another time. You cast Magic Missile as a ninth level spell.
You have spent four feats so far, those being Able Learner, Heighten Spell, Versatile Spellcaster, and Sactum Spell. Let's spend another on Extra Slot to get an eighth-level slot, and spend another on Extra Slot to get a ninth-level slot (Sanctum Spell+Naenhoon+Heighten lets you cast a tenth-level spell).

I'm pretty sure that the Chameleon would be losing to the Mystic Theurge in terms of the amount of spells he has. Not to mention that the Mystic Theurge might be an Archivist/Wizard or something and thus be SAD.

...Then again, I'm not that familiar with double threat builds. What's the best way to get dual nines with Mystic Theurge, anyway?

[deuxhero]

Is there a normally 9th level spell other than Hindsight/Antipathy a Chameleon can get without cheese?

[bekeleven]

The problem comes in that the Chameleon's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1) focus has a clause:
... which means the trick doesn't actually work.

I just mentioned that before your post. Simply, casting spells of X level is not a requirement for extra spell, merely something you note as you take the feat. Therefore, it avoids this clause.

[Gemini476]

Is there a normally 9th level spell other than Hindsight/Antipathy a Chameleon can get without cheese?

Absolutely anything Arcane that he can scribe into his spellbook? Probably via a scroll.
Remember, "spells known" for casters that use spellbooks are the spells within their books.

[Jack_Simth]

I just mentioned that before your post. Simply, casting spells of X level is not a requirement for extra spell, merely something you note as you take the feat. Therefore, it avoids this clause.
*Shrug*

It was a long post. See my sig.