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hoverfrog
2014-05-30, 12:56 PM
I DM a couple of games here and on the myth-weavers site and recently I've had a recurring problem with absent players. In one game, two (of four) of the players have simply disappeared and have been absent from the boards for almost two weeks. One of them did say that real life was keeping them busy and they'd be away for a few days so I and the other players are aware of their absence. A few days has dragged on but at least we have a reason and can appreciate it.

Am I being impatient because we've had a while with half a group? Is my posting rate too ambitious (I try to post every day if I can)? Should there be a rule that if someone disappears for X days or weeks without letting us know then they're considered dead or MIA and we replace them? Should I recruit (I don't want to do this again. I'd rather get recommendations or use established players that I've got to know) to boost the numbers so that their absence for the moment isn't felt so keenly?

I really like these games, the adventure paths that I'm playing and the fun with the players and I want to keep it going but it does get frustrating sometimes. At the moment it feels as if I've got my dice, books and figures, bought the beer and pizza and then nobody has turned up to play.

I'm starting to think that it's me and my DMing that's at fault, that I can't retain interest in the game. It's a fair assumption given the lack of alternatives but I've been assured that this isn't the case. One game has been running for 18 months and another two for 10 months. I think poor DMing would have given people reason to leave sooner or to say something or offer constructive criticism. Even I'm not that polite as to stay in a game for a year and a half if I find it boring.

I've recently been chatting OOC in one of the games I play in about this issue (our DM is pretty busy and has alerted us to a slower posting rate which is fine) and the solution we've come up with is to keep the game going in the OOC chat. Just talk about ourselves, our other games, our PCs, our real lives even (gasp) and this really does seem to be working. I think that people are less likely to wander off without a word if they've formed some sort of friendship with the people that they're playing with. It's a little late to use this in the games I'm DMing though as players are already absent. Going forward I'm really going to try to maintain a steady OOC chat though and make sure that the players appreciate the reason for this.

Does anyone have any tips or tricks for maintaining interest or for dealing with absences? Does anyone just want to share a few of their own horror stories so we can share the pain and know that we're not alone?

Rhynn
2014-05-30, 02:12 PM
Pretty sure "1+ every day" is the gold standard for PBP games; it's not a lot, but it forces people to stay active and keeps things moving.

The thing is, players drop out of PBP games at really high rates, for all sorts of reasons and (probably more than 50% of the time) for no reason at all, really - maybe they just got bored or whatever. A lot of people find it easier to just slip away than to be honest about what they don't like about the game. Dropping a PBP game is ridiculously easy.

You just need to make clear rules right from the outset: if you don't post for X days, even if you gave a reason, the GM writes out your PC and the game goes on as normal. Enforce ruthlessly. If a player did give a reason and comes back when they said they would, write the PC back in.

Airk
2014-05-30, 03:18 PM
Yeah, while I've never been in one, my understanding is that Play By Post games have a fairly high rate of attrition and failure in general, so I wouldn't take it personally.

Setting some ground rules as Rhynn suggested sounds like a good idea to avoid disputes.

elonin
2014-05-30, 05:59 PM
I agree with the 1+ post per day but as a player if its the time that i've set aside to post and it isn't my turn in initiative order it means I can't post either? I've never been sure how that should be handled but often my actions are going to rely on what happens.

Rhynn
2014-05-31, 12:24 AM
"Initiative order" seems like a great way to slow down and screw up a PBP game, actually. There's got to be a better way than that, right?

A game that puts more agency and narrative responsibility on players would probably be a start - less need for the GM to give input on actions and their results. But you're not going to eliminate it completely, so that's not a perfect solution...

hoverfrog
2014-05-31, 02:41 AM
In combat we have initiative but the players post in whatever order they like. I, the hapless DM, then sort it out into a reasonable order along with NPC and monster actions and post the results of the round. Combat is very slow in PbP, it generally is in RPGs anyway but I don't really see that as an issue. I include maps where they're needed and combat tables like this one.



Image
Name
HP
Initiative
Conditions
Effects
Special


http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Isles%20of%20the%20Small%20Folk/9ad0994b-f255-4469-a018-897896ba529f_zps3338d608.jpg
K'frawar
18/30

18
Entangled




http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Isles%20of%20the%20Small%20Folk/bef49a8c-a517-4aad-95fa-7b3556e9d23b_zpseb8f2c84.jpg
Kevst (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=442301)
17/17

17

Inspire courage +1



http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Isles%20of%20the%20Small%20Folk/89341e47-0a5c-4dc0-9eee-fe06b686a039_zps0011ae9d.jpg
Young Ben (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=443311)
15/15

13

Inspire courage +1



http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Isles%20of%20the%20Small%20Folk/effe1f3f-504b-4056-8a08-010918e0abab_zps94dc41f5.jpg
Athedru Namecarver (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=442120)
6/6

12

Inspire courage +1



http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Isles%20of%20the%20Small%20Folk/e21f4c4c-cb34-42ad-82dd-b43dd868b07e_zps798b4dd9.jpg
Graorin (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=442581)
25/25

5

Inspire courage +1



http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Isles%20of%20the%20Small%20Folk/171c08f0-1e7c-4500-ae84-cd820842ba4a_zps60250f27.jpg
Artho (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=533476)
23/23

5

Inspire courage +1



http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Isles%20of%20the%20Small%20Folk/b54f9986-1583-4b33-9671-31e7989ba8a8_zps9ce0176d.jpg
Devka Thorn (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=442259)
28/28

5

Inspire courage +1



http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Isles%20of%20the%20Small%20Folk/c244dfd9-f076-47f6-a64b-b6d337294bde_zps013b9071.jpg
Ever Barrowfoot (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=442163)
11/11

??

Inspire courage +1




In fact I've got a whole bunch of useful resources here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?311431-Useful-resources) that make things visually easy to track and cut down on mistakes. It's a bit of a pain to set up initially but once it's done all you have to do is fill in the blanks.

jedipotter
2014-05-31, 06:37 PM
Does anyone have any tips or tricks for maintaining interest or for dealing with absences? Does anyone just want to share a few of their own horror stories so we can share the pain and know that we're not alone?

Your not alone.

Three strikes is fine.

Most internet games, live or PbP have like a 75% drop out rate. Everyone will be excited before the game and post every day and say ''I can't wait to play''. Then the gamr starts. Then they will post a couple times......and vanish. Everytime. That is just one of the realities of internet gaming.

Depending on the game, I often do one strike and your gone. If something real comes up, like your house explodes, I'm fine with you missing posts for a couple days. Otherwise, I expect a post. After ll we are only talking about five minutes of your time. If you can't find five whole minutes to type a post and hit send...well, you have problems.

GungHo
2014-06-02, 09:19 AM
"Initiative order" seems like a great way to slow down and screw up a PBP game, actually. There's got to be a better way than that, right?

A game that puts more agency and narrative responsibility on players would probably be a start - less need for the GM to give input on actions and their results. But you're not going to eliminate it completely, so that's not a perfect solution...

Yeah, I wouldn't do initiative order for a PBP. You're already dealing with significant delays and asking people to give you time when they can give it to you. At most I'd use whole-party initiative vs enemy initiative to figure out if the party or enemy went first. For the party, I'd say first-come, first-serve, and post your full action. If you want to muddy the waters with contingency actions, you can consider that, but that requires the DM do some modeling of sequences.

hoverfrog
2014-06-02, 09:59 AM
You can run group initiatives by getting people to roll in the first round when they declare their actions and then putting them in order with NPC actions. I use the following chart that seems to work quite well:
Initiative


-----Phase
-----Order


-----Party Phase 1
-----
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Unknown_zpscc72dc21.png http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Unknown_zpscc72dc21.png http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Unknown_zpscc72dc21.png


-----Enemy Phase 1
-----
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Unknown_zpscc72dc21.png http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Unknown_zpscc72dc21.png


-----Party Phase 2
-----
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Unknown_zpscc72dc21.png http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Unknown_zpscc72dc21.png http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Unknown_zpscc72dc21.png http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Unknown_zpscc72dc21.png


-----Enemy Phase 2
-----
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Unknown_zpscc72dc21.png http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j118/hoverFrog/Unknown_zpscc72dc21.png


So the party groups acts, then the enemy group acts (or vice versa). Just don't stick rigidly to it if someone posts out of order. It's better that they post than forget to because they've lost their place and forgotten what they're doing. I do use initiative like this and I find it works quite well even if it creates a bit of extra work for the DM. It lets players make use of feats like Improved initiative and various spells that alter initiative order that otherwise they'd lose out on. Also if you don't use initiative and you do use flaws then everyone will take Unreactive and laugh about the lack of any penalty for the free feat.

Erasmas
2014-06-02, 10:25 AM
It definitely isn't you or your GMing skills, Hoverfrog. There is just an extremely high drop-out rate from PbP games. As has already been said a few times here, a lot of people avoid the possible confrontation by just walking away. Others join the site/game when they have a lot of downtime (spring break, winter holiday, summer vacation, unemployed, broke up with their girlfriend, etc.) that turns out to be temporary, sometimes with them knowing that full well in advance. A lot the time these latter players are just looking for something to help stave off boredom and/or kill time; and then when things change, they no longer have an interest in staying committed.

As petty as it might be, I have a rule in my games - if you don't post anything for one month, you're gone. Usually that means I kill off your character, as this is both somewhat cathartic for me and is the best explainable reason as for why the character suddenly parts ways with the group midstream. Now, if someone says ahead of time that they are needing a sabbatical, that's a whole 'nother ballgame (for example, I just had a player return after a four month absence because he was heading off to bootcamp). I actually keep a list of players that I like and have been solid and a list of those who... not so much... so that any games I run in the future, I know who to send invites to and whose application to kindly decline from recruitment threads.

As for combat, I suffer from the same issues. I too like to use battle maps and initiative charts in my games. But, regardless of how you slice it, PbP combat moves slower than a sloth after Thanksgiving dinner. As some of the others said above, having a group initiative and a baddies initiative seems to help out a lot in that regard. And, if a player takes too long to post up their action for that round, well... there's always next round little buddy!

hoverfrog
2014-06-02, 11:20 AM
Keeping a list of good and reliable players does strike me as a good idea. If I ever start a new game again (and I probably will) I think I'll do it by invitation only rather than opening a recruitment thread.

Erasmas
2014-06-02, 12:02 PM
Yes, I usually send out a batch of invites when I get one going as well. But, sadly, my list of reliable/good players is just barely long enough to make a full game and most of the time only a few out of my list are usually able (or want) to join the new game.

But, I'm confidant that at some point in time, I'll be able to run an "all stars" game!
:smallsmile:

hoverfrog
2014-06-03, 02:14 AM
In the Guide to Play by Post Games (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?257924-Guide-to-Play-by-Post-Games) there's a brilliant comment by Strawberries.
Here's a list of the most common problem play by posts have, and some advice to how address them.

----Problem: Games tend to die because players drop out
This is one of the most common problems, in my experience. A player stops posting for whatever reason, other people keep waiting for him/her, game dies.

Possible solution: As a player, warn others if you are going to drop out. Noone will judge someone who says “Guys, I’ve got too much on my plate, I have to quit”. This gives the DM and the other players an heads-up, as they know they shouldn’t wait for you.
As a GM, as addressed in other parts of the guide, it’s probably helpful to establish a “maximum inactivity time”, at least during combat, which is the maximum time a player is allowed to go without posting before the dm takes control of their character or the action skips to another player. Ideally, this time should be shorter during combat, longer outside combat (as then the other players have more chances to step in).
Also, as a GM, remember that you have the option to start recruiting again to fill the empty spots.


----Problem: Game stall because people wait for other to post.
This may in itself have various causes:

a) people don’t post because they don’t know what to do.
I’ve seen this happen quite a lot (and happened to myself, too). As a player, you think “Uhm, I’ve really no idea how to act in this situation, I’ll think about it for another while/ wait for someone else to take the lead”. Then people forgot, and the game dies.
The solution: post OOC. Say that you’re stuck. For instance, say “Hey, guys, Sir McINT should know the answer to this riddle, but I’m stumped. Anyone has any ideas?” Brainstorm plans, courses of action, whatever you like. Chances are, the barbarian’s player knew the answer, and was waiting for you because he felt that it would be out of character for Mr Smashalot to say it.

Which brings me to

b) people don’t post because they think their character wouldn’ t say/do anything
Which is fine, really. If it’s out of character for someone to act or speak, they shouldn’t. Except the other players have no way of knowing why you aren’t posting. So they’ll still wait for you, leading to the game stalling and dying.
The solution: that’s easy, but rarely applied. If your character does nothing, post saying you are doing nothing. I. e. “Julia Introverted waits by the window, uncomfortable in the presence of the large group of people and not sure of what to say to break the ice”. This way, your character still doesn’t move or speak, but people know you (the player) have read and reacted to their posts.
Moreover, both as a player and a GM, poke people. A lot. Either by posting in the OOC thread or by PM. PMS work wonders in cases like these.

----PBPs are slow, therefore people lose interest.

That’s not an astonishing piece of information. PBPs are slow because you have to wait for people from all around the world to post. There are timezone issues, as well as real life issue. Combat is going to take days.
The solution. That’s not an easy one, as pbps are by nature much, much slower than real life games, but there are some things both GM and players can do.

As a GM, beside the aforementioned time limit, you can, for instance, do some rolls yourself. For instance, rolling initiative for the players (as opposed to post “roll initiative” and wait for everyone) can save days, and free the first player to focus on the active part of combat. Same goes with spots/lsten checks. Please note than you should tell in advance to the players f you are using this system, and be sure everyone agrees.
As a player, if you aren’t sure if/what to roll, roll all the same, and ask the DM to disregard if not relevant. This saves time as you don’t have back/forths like “Can I make a knowledge check?” “Sure” “Well, then [roll=knowledge]” “You have these info:…” This may seem a trivial exchange, but in a pbp can easily mean a day of real-time. Compare with “Can I make a knowledge check? [roll=knowledge]” ”Yes you can. You have these info:… / No, you can’t, it doesn’t apply”. Half the time, same result.

General advice

My general advice, not linked to any of the problems in particular, is to talk OOC whenever possible. Share opinions, talk about unrelated subject, whatever. Because it’s a good way to get to know your players and/or your gamemaster, and it’s always funnier to game with people you know and like than with total strangers. Moreover, there is a thing I consider of great importance: this is a forum. People can’t see your face, and can’t tell if you are enjoying yourself or you’d prefer to do something else (more combat/roleplaying/intrigue/humor. They don’t know if you’re arguing IC because your character is going to be fiercely opposed to a course of action, but you think it’s a great idea, or if it’s you as a player that think the idea is stupid. The only way you have to let them know if to post OOC. Feedback (both from players to the GM and vice-versa and between players) is a fundamental aid in having successful pbps.

Erasmas
2014-06-03, 09:45 AM
That is a great post.
And it hits a lot of really applicable points.

I think, in my future games, I will take the advice of doing more of the rolling myself in order to cut down on time.