targeting the right saving roll

[dehro]

I've been into d&d for long enough that I probably should be able to answer this question but somehow ( until now) the campaigns I played have never lasted long enough for me to reach that experience level as a player that allows me to see the patterns and categories, so I'll ask you guys.
My character has a bunch of invocations that don't allow for saving rolls, but there are just ad many out there that do allow for a will save or a reflex save or even a grapple roll and so on.
Whenever I pick one of those, I seem to pick just the one where my foe has the highest chance of beating the roll, which then often gets a reaction of "really?" either from the DM or from the more experienced players.
So... Is there a pattern? Are there categories such as, I don't know, all infernal creatures have high will saves and slightly lower fortitude, whereas natural creatures... Or somesuch?

Or is it really a case by case scenario which I can only learn by experience and learning the whole fracking monster manual by heart?
In other words, how do I pick the most effective spell, attack or invocation against one or the other type of foe?

[Ohiohi]

When you know the type, it generally works like this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#aberrationType)

[Alex12]

I've been into d&d for long enough that I probably should be able to answer this question but somehow ( until now) the campaigns I played have never lasted long enough for me to reach that experience level as a player that allows me to see the patterns and categories, so I'll ask you guys.
My character has a bunch of invocations that don't allow for saving rolls, but there are just ad many out there that do allow for a will save or a reflex save or even a grapple roll and so on.
Whenever I pick one of those, I seem to pick just the one where my foe has the highest chance of beating the roll, which then often gets a reaction of "really?" either from the DM or from the more experienced players.
So... Is there a pattern? Are there categories such as, I don't know, all infernal creatures have high will saves and slightly lower fortitude, whereas natural creatures... Or somesuch?

Or is it really a case by case scenario which I can only learn by experience and learning the whole fracking monster manual by heart?
In other words, how do I pick the most effective spell, attack or invocation against one or the other type of foe?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#types
Don't bother worrying about the individual creatures, just worry about the type. You just need to know what creature types generally have good saves in what areas. If it helps, remember that big brute monsters are likely to have high Con and thus Fort, small zippy things are likely to have high Dex and thus high Reflex, and smart things or things with spellcasting are likely to have high Wis and thus high Will saves.

[Andezzar]

As for enemies with class levels, warrior types usually get strong Fort saves, sneaky types get strong Ref saves and casters at least get a strong will save.

Big monsters usually have a high Grapple modifier (+4 for each size category above medium and they tend to be strong)

[dehro]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#types
Don't bother worrying about the individual creatures, just worry about the type. You just need to know what creature types generally have good saves in what areas. If it helps, remember that big brute monsters are likely to have high Con and thus Fort, small zippy things are likely to have high Dex and thus high Reflex, and smart things or things with spellcasting are likely to have high Wis and thus high Will saves.

That sounds entirely reasonable and I have no idea why I didn't think of things in these terms myself.
Thanks everybody

[KillianHawkeye]

That sounds entirely reasonable and I have no idea why I didn't think of things in these terms myself.
Thanks everybody

Yeah, this is one of the reasons I enjoy playing a wizard. It's basically a guessing game. Few creatures or characters have all good saves, so you just have to try to make an educated guess. Also, ask questions, like what kind of weapons and in particular armor somebody is wearing. Anything to give you a hint what class they might be or what their best ability score is. It's the same thing with monsters, but instead of looking for telltale equipment you're just trying to size up their physical and mental capabilities.

The important thing to remember is that it's never a sure thing. The only thing you can do by guessing well is to give yourself a better chance of success, but there's always going to be times where the bad guys roll really well and pass even on their weakest save.

Also, sometimes appearances are deceiving. :smallwink:

[HalfQuart]

Here's my cheat sheet:




Fort
Reflex
Will
Mind Effects
Poison
Sleep
Paralysis
Stun
Crits
Flanking
Fort Saves
Other Immunitie


Abberation
Type


Good











Animal
Type
Good
Good












Construct
Type
-
-
-
X
X
X
X
X
X

X
death effects, disease, necromancy effects, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue exhaustion, energy drain, effects that require Fort saves (unless works on objects)



Dragon
Type
Good
Fair
Good


X
X







Elemental (Air/Fire)
Type

Good


X
X
X
X
X
X




Elemental (Earth/ Water)
Type
Good



X
X
X
X
X
X




Fey
Type

Good
Good











Giant
Type
Good













Humanoid
???
???
???












Magical Beast
Type
Good
Good












Monstrous humanoid
Type

Good
Good











Ooze
Type
Good
Poor?
Poor?
X
X
X
X

X
X

gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, attacks that rely on sight, polymorph



Outsider
Type
Good
Good
Good











Plant
Type
Good


X
X
X
X
X
X


polymorph


Swarm
Subtype








X
X

Swarm of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing; Swarm of smaller is immune to all weapon damage; cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed; immune to spells that target a specific number of creatures including single target spells (except mind-affecting if swarm hasintelligence score). +50% damage from area affects; susceptable to high winds



Undead
Type
Poor **
Fair
Good
X
X
X
X
X
X

X
death effects, disease, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, damage to physical ability scores, fatigue, exhaustion, any effect that requires a Fort Save unless it also works on objects



Vermin
Type
Good


X











An X indicates immunity from the particular category. Some of the saves I've marked as "Fair" to try to describe some nuance, like with Dragons that are technically all Good saves, but tend to have significantly lower Dex than Con or Wis, resulting in that save being lower on average (although still rather good).

Please correct me if anything is amiss -- I may have transcribed from my spreadsheet wrong, or maybe I just made a mistake.

[DarkSonic1337]

What do the two stars under poor in the undead row indicate?

[Andezzar]

What do the two stars under poor in the undead row indicate?Undead are only affected by effect that allow a Fort save, if that effect also affects objects.

[DarkSonic1337]

The word poor with the two stars under it are in the reflex column. The Fort column is simply empty just like the construct column for the same reason.

[HalfQuart]

The word poor with the two stars under it are in the reflex column. The Fort column is simply empty just like the construct column for the same reason.
I fixed that; thanks. Andezzar was right about the intent... Undead tend to have poor Fort saves, but they're immune to stuff that requires Fort saves unless it also works on objects.