Creating a Sinister 7!

[Xaroth]

So I've realised you guys are incredibly helpful with this kind of thing (because I'm really not) and as such I've decided to make this a somewhat series of challenge threads to help myself and the community. I like to think of myself as incredibly good at creating dungeons but when it comes to the bosses I'm not exactly the greatest of optimizers.

Previously we had the Hydra boss (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?351968-Creating-a-Hydra-Boss!) and the Boneclaw boss (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?352670-Creating-a-Boneclaw-boss!) (Boneclaw is near-finished, I'm just torn between what to choose).

Now is something that I'm planning to have near the end of my campaign: A Sinister 7. A series of 7 bosses that come out in a gauntlet style, each with a CR 5-10 higher than the previous one, beginning at a CR ~50.

Now, these bosses can be ANYTHING. So long as it isn't Homebrew, Pathfinder, or Pun-Pun (I'd like to stray from demons/devils and dragons if possible as well) and Leadership/minions aren't involved, it's allowed.

Considering the fact that my PCs are a kill-all kind of party and that a boss I'm facing them against is definitely not one they can defeat at the moment (the Hydra) I'm pretty sure they're going to have new characters, so assume the player races and classes are irrelevant.

If a starting point is needed, I'm thinking of the Concordant Killer (Monster Manual IV pg. 34) for the first boss.

Any and all help is appreciated.

[Ranting Fool]

I chucked two Titanic creatures (MM2) in my last campaign that my Players loved. One was a Toad but since their quest was to "narfle the garthok!!!" the older members of the party had a good chuckle. The fight had a massive build up followed by Hold Monster and Coup De Gras. They still loved it.

The second one was a Bunny being ridden by about 4 Giants (Led by a Giant Named Echo, all the random monster tribes were named after bands.... :smallbiggrin:)

ANYWAY. An awakened one of those could be nice and epic :smallbiggrin:

[Ranting Fool]

Though thinking about it if you want a Sinister 7 you could go all out and rebuild some of Spiderman's Greatest Enemies.....

[Xaroth]

I chucked two Titanic creatures (MM2) in my last campaign that my Players loved. One was a Toad but since their quest was to "narfle the garthok!!!" the older members of the party had a good chuckle. The fight had a massive build up followed by Hold Monster and Coup De Gras. They still loved it.

The second one was a Bunny being ridden by about 4 Giants (Led by a Giant Named Echo, all the random monster tribes were named after bands.... :smallbiggrin:)

ANYWAY. An awakened one of those could be nice and epic :smallbiggrin:

o.o
Well that's...

[PraxisVetli]

Is diverted to this thread.
Opens MMIV
...
:smalleek:
Oh my.....
Shadow Template? Is this a "kick in the door" kind of boss, or a "sneaky death ninja" kind of boss?




Also, as for a suggestion for another of the 7, I was once in a campaign where we were utterly DESTROYED by none other than the humble BEBILITH. It ate our armour and then our bodies. We made it out with, in a two person party, a collective 8 HP. It was terrible man. We were terrified!
I wonder if your players would enjoy the same terror?


Could make it combination of a Bebilith and a Retriever.
And a Devastation Spider.

[Xaroth]

Is diverted to this thread.
Opens MMIV
...
:smalleek:
Oh my.....
Shadow Template? Is this a "kick in the door" kind of boss, or a "sneaky death ninja" kind of boss?



Also, as for a suggestion for another of the 7, I was once in a campaign where we were utterly DESTROYED by none other than the humble BEBILITH. It ate our armour and then our bodies. We made it out with, in a two person party, a collective 8 HP. It was terrible man. We were terrified!
I wonder if your players would enjoy the same terror?


Could make it combination of a Bebilith and a Retriever.
And a Devastation Spider.

I have a thing with my bosses where I like them to be bosses that are either uber confident or uber calm.
Or uber cool.


You enter the room. Overhead there is a chandelier with candles illuminating the room. On the other side of the room is a black door with a large skull carved into it, the mouth of which emits ghastly fog as though it breathes it. The room appears to be empty save for a single winged being standing at the window, looking out into the night. In its left hand, it holds a Greatsword of unusual design. A deep, booming voice comes from it. "Congratulations on making it here." It turns to you and points to the door. "That door is your reward. I am the obstruction. Go on, try and open it."
*one of the PCs volunteer hopefully*
As you reach towards the door, the eyes of the skull glow red and in a flash you're blasted back to the side of the room the party is on. You take XdY (any suggestions?) damage.
"Currently my life is linked to that door. Your objective is to kill me, and advance through the door unto the next dungeon, which will be more difficult than what you faced coming here." With a wave of his hand, the candles in the room extinguish and he vanishes from sight. "NOW COME, SHOW ME THE FRUITS OF YOUR ADVENTURE TO THIS ACCURSED PLACE!"
Roll initiatives.

^That kind of encounter is my favorite kind of encounter.

[Xaroth]

As for the Bebilith, that... sounds like a lot of fun. But everyone in my group is familiar with the first Monster Manual so save for the Hydra I'm trying to go for the other books.

A Bebilith/Retriever combination seems really interesting though.

[PraxisVetli]

As for the Bebilith, that... sounds like a lot of fun. But everyone in my group is familiar with the first Monster Manual so save for the Hydra I'm trying to go for the other books.

A Bebilith/Retriever combination seems really interesting though.

Well, at CR 22, with Multiattack and Rapidstrike, it'll be looking at +47 to hit on the first set of claw attacks. Great for ripping armour off tanks. Maybe it's useful, maybe not. Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cp.

BUT! You have a current goal! And now that I am less.. inebriated than I was last night, I shall look again at this Concordant Killer.

The Neutrality thing throws me off, not gonna lie.
Could this be a Swordsage/Telflammar kind of build?

[Xaroth]

Well, at CR 22, with Multiattack and Rapidstrike, it'll be looking at +47 to hit on the first set of claw attacks. Great for ripping armour off tanks. Maybe it's useful, maybe not. Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cp.

BUT! You have a current goal! And now that I am less.. inebriated than I was last night, I shall look again at this Concordant Killer.

The Neutrality thing throws me off, not gonna lie.
Could this be a Swordsage/Telflammar kind of build?

I haven't even heard of Telflammar. And bear in mind something I can do as DM is just change its alignment.

[PraxisVetli]

I haven't even heard of Telflammar. And bear in mind something I can do as DM is just change its alignment.

whoa... not heard of Telflammar?
Check it.
http://dndtools.eu/classes/telflammar-shadowlord/
It's that level 4 Shadow Pounce that ruins people's day.

Also, you could totally change it's alignment, but with this kind of creature, it seems like it should keep it.

[Xaroth]

whoa... not heard of Telflammar?
Check it.
http://dndtools.eu/classes/telflammar-shadowlord/
It's that level 4 Shadow Pounce that ruins people's day.

It's certainly powerful but the Killer's spell like abilities basically render everything other than the Shadow Pounce and Shadow Discorporation obsolete.

[TheMooch]

DemiLich Beholder
Beholder Mage 2/Ur-Priest 2/Binder 3/Anima Mage 10/Incantatrix 10/mystic theurge 10

Feats:
flyby attack
improved initiative
Iron will
spell focus(evil)
extend spell
persist spell
<open slot>
epic spell casting
improved spell capacity x3
permanent emmanation (desecate battlefield)
blinding speed
tenacious magic
automatic quickenx3
multispellx2

This should be very, very hard to kill to borderline impossible if actually played to the fullest of its ability. you can cast 10 arcane spells (one of each level) and 3 other spells as a free action each round. If that doesn't kill them its a freaking demilich use trap the soul to finish them off. Hitting it with melee will be extremely hard and it is immune to magic.

[PraxisVetli]

It's certainly powerful but the Killer's spell like abilities basically render everything other than the Shadow Pounce and Shadow Discorporation obsolete.

OK, OK. So then how about RKV?

[TheMooch]

OK, OK. So then how about RKV?

Yeah go something like Cleric 5/rogue 3/Telflammar Shadowlord 5/crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Bone Knight 10

Then you get to shadow pounce close to 3 times per round without even really trying.

[Xaroth]

DemiLich Beholder
Beholder Mage 2/Ur-Priest 2/Binder 3/Anima Mage 10/Incantatrix 10/mystic theurge 10

Feats:
flyby attack
improved initiative
Iron will
spell focus(evil)
extend spell
persist spell
<open slot>
epic spell casting
improved spell capacity x3
permanent emmanation (desecate battlefield)
blinding speed
tenacious magic
automatic quickenx3
multispellx2

This should be very, very hard to kill to borderline impossible if actually played to the fullest of its ability. you can cast 10 arcane spells (one of each level) and 3 other spells as a free action each round. If that doesn't kill them its a freaking demilich use trap the soul to finish them off. Hitting it with melee will be extremely hard and it is immune to magic.

What CR is it, and can you source each feat?

[Coidzor]

One thing to think about is what would be the dark mirror/foil/antithesis of each character and make a boss fight involving either premise.

One of them is a mind-flayer, right? Well, an Ulitharid(Ilithid Ubermensch) or Alhoon (Illithid Lich) might be a way to show their "ultimate expression" as villainous illithids. Alternatively, a Githyanki or Githzerai Illithid-hunter (which, since no psionics would have to be some kind of Gish) or Illithid hunting team(plus red dragon mounts, maybe :smallwink:) could make for a good fight, though you'd have to bend Gith canon, make them rogue Gith, or otherwise sidestep the whole Gith Queen eating Gith that rise above X level to strengthen her ascension to divinity or whatever it was she was doing it for other than to keep them all weaker than her.

You could have Titanic/Legendary/X Awakened Anthropomorphic versions of the characters from Wind in the Willows who don't even notice the PCs but instead just have a whole series of accidents that seriously threaten or inconvenience them, but that's less boss rush and more a potentially trippy encounter where the challenge is just getting through rather than maimmurderkilling.

[Xaroth]

Yeah go something like Cleric 5/rogue 3/Telflammar Shadowlord 5/crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Bone Knight 10

Then you get to shadow pounce close to 3 times per round without even really trying.

Bone Knight is somewhat useless on this character unless you're JUST talking Armor, because Concordants really don't use weapons other than their Concordant ones. Even then they dislike Armor. And I'll check out Ruby Knight Vindicator.

[TheMooch]

What CR is it, and can you source each feat?

Sure:
Beholder - MM1
Beholder Mage - LoM
Binder/Anima Mage - ToM
Ur-Priest - CD
Incantatrix - PGtF
Mystic Theurge - SRD
Lich/Demilich - SRD
all the feats are SRD except persist spell which is complete arcane
desecrate battlefield spell is from Heroes of Battle

CR calculation
58 = 13 (Beholder) + 2 (lich) + 6 (demilich) + 37 (associated levels)

[Xaroth]

One thing to think about is what would be the dark mirror/foil/antithesis of each character and make a boss fight involving either premise.

One of them is a mind-flayer, right? Well, an Ulitharid(Ilithid Ubermensch) or Alhoon (Illithid Lich) might be a way to show their "ultimate expression" as villainous illithids. Alternatively, a Githyanki or Githzerai Illithid-hunter (which, since no psionics would have to be some kind of Gish) or Illithid hunting team(plus red dragon mounts, maybe :smallwink:) could make for a good fight, though you'd have to bend Gith canon, make them rogue Gith, or otherwise sidestep the whole Gith Queen eating Gith that rise above X level to strengthen her ascension to divinity or whatever it was she was doing it for other than to keep them all weaker than her.

You could have Titanic/Legendary/X Awakened Anthropomorphic versions of the characters from Wind in the Willows who don't even notice the PCs but instead just have a whole series of accidents that seriously threaten or inconvenience them, but that's less boss rush and more a potentially trippy encounter where the challenge is just getting through rather than maimmurderkilling.

The Mind-flayer is probably going to die soon.
Then again so is every other character, but I think the Mind-flayer and the Minotaur have the highest % chance of dying soon. Mainly because the Mind-flayer is cocky and the Minotaur is kill-all, and they're nowhere near capable of defeating the Hydra yet.

I'm intending for the Sinister 7 to be a series of singular bosses, no groups. But there's also going to be a dungeon for each boss, so I might include them as a sub-boss in one of them.

Titanic/Legendary? I'm unfamiliar and incapable of accessing Monster Manual II.

[Xaroth]

Sure:
Beholder - MM1
Beholder Mage - LoM
Binder/Anima Mage - ToM
Ur-Priest - CD
Incantatrix - PGtF
Mystic Theurge - SRD
Lich/Demilich - SRD
all the feats are SRD except persist spell which is complete arcane
desecrate battlefield spell is from Heroes of Battle

CR calculation
58 = 13 (Beholder) + 2 (lich) + 6 (demilich) + 37 (associated levels)

That's actually perfect for the next boss in the series, thanks.

[TheMooch]

from this thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255829-Useful-ways-to-improve-our-friend-the-Tarrasque-without-homebrew-3-5

Base: Tarrasque

Templates, in order Applied:
Monster of Legend (Awesome poison, Powerful guardian effects, Cold, Acid, Mind effecting immunity)
Pseudonatural (OMGWTFBBQ spell resist, Double speed, Alternate Form, Maximized HD)
Paragon (+15 all attributes, +12 HP/HD, Triple speed)
Shadow Creature (easy Concealment, Half again speed)(we need to get an SLA for any darkness spell.)
Mineral Warrior (Tarrasque Smite, Burrow Speed)
Greenbound Creature (moar healz, Tremorsense, Slam Attack, D8 HD)
Half-Platinum Dragon (Attribute Drain immunity, Light Cone breath, D10 HD)
Half-Farspawn (SLAs, 2 Non-transformed Ubertentacles)
Half-Celestial (Fly Speed, access to Vow of Poverty)(Last applied chronologically, to force a Good alignement)

just add on legendary dreadnought so that he can go through pesky walls of force

[Xaroth]

from this thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255829-Useful-ways-to-improve-our-friend-the-Tarrasque-without-homebrew-3-5

Base: Tarrasque

Templates, in order Applied:
Monster of Legend (Awesome poison, Powerful guardian effects, Cold, Acid, Mind effecting immunity)
Pseudonatural (OMGWTFBBQ spell resist, Double speed, Alternate Form, Maximized HD)
Paragon (+15 all attributes, +12 HP/HD, Triple speed)
Shadow Creature (easy Concealment, Half again speed)(we need to get an SLA for any darkness spell.)
Mineral Warrior (Tarrasque Smite, Burrow Speed)
Greenbound Creature (moar healz, Tremorsense, Slam Attack, D8 HD)
Half-Platinum Dragon (Attribute Drain immunity, Light Cone breath, D10 HD)
Half-Farspawn (SLAs, 2 Non-transformed Ubertentacles)
Half-Celestial (Fly Speed, access to Vow of Poverty)(Last applied chronologically, to force a Good alignement)

just add on legendary dreadnought so that he can go through pesky walls of force

Should've mentioned: No Tarrasques. The campaign's main quest is to deliver a lost Tarrasque to its parents (I'm aware of the normal Tarrasque rules, I've altered it for this) and all Tarrasques other than the escortee are... well...

Let's just say they're not on the planet the PCs are on.

[Grayson01]

This has probably been done to death but a Awakened Skiurid from MM IV with maybe shadow dancer, assasin, Duskblade, warlock (clawlock), Swashbuckler, and/or any other fun class levels.

I wonder if you could make a swarm of them.... but anyway

have the Skiurid be a trash talking anti-chip and dale rescue ranger

[Thealtruistorc]

Huge Psion-Killer that has been awakened and is now a 20th level Warblade (46 HD may be too much, so feel free to reduce the warblade levels). Dispel psionics works on spells, so have the thing spam its dispel ability (with an advanced DC of course) while tearing through your party with overwhelming martial ability and a huge greatsword.

[Chadamantium]

What about a collosus from the SRD? Damage reduction, antimagic field, lots of heath. Slap on some templates and advance the HD to get something to be feared.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm

[TheMooch]

Ok let me try another one
Phane

Chaos monk 2 (ACFs to take dodge and mobility)
Wizard 5
Swiftblade 10
Psion 5
Cerebremancer 20
Anarchic Initiate 10

Feats:
dodge
mobility
kung fu genius
extend spell
persist spell
overchannel
combat reflexes
quicken spell
chain power
twin power
linked power
psicrystal affinity
psicrystal containment
psionic meditation

improved combat reflexes
epic spellcasting
spell stowaway (timestop)
spell stowaway (haste)
blinding speed
multispell x3
epic psioninc focus
improved spell capacity x6

You have basically every time releated feat, trick, and combo from both arcane and psionics. Have your players fight it once then restart using the save game trick and make them fight it again.... just because

CR:
77 = 25(phane) + 52 (related levels)

[Xaroth]

Ok let me try another one
Phane

Chaos monk 2 (ACFs to take dodge and mobility)
Wizard 5
Swiftblade 10
Psion 5
Cerebremancer 20
Anarchic Initiate 10

Feats:
dodge
mobility
kung fu genius
extend spell
persist spell
overchannel
combat reflexes
quicken spell
chain power
twin power
linked power
psicrystal affinity
psicrystal containment
psionic meditation

improved combat reflexes
epic spellcasting
spell stowaway (timestop)
spell stowaway (haste)
blinding speed
multispell x3
epic psioninc focus
improved spell capacity x6

You have basically every time releated feat, trick, and combo from both arcane and psionics. Have your players fight it once then restart using the save game trick and make them fight it again.... just because

CR:
77 = 25(phane) + 52 (related levels)

No Psionics.

[Coidzor]

Oh, and another source of theming. We've got the Necromantic/Divine from the Boneclaw and the Water/Aquatic from the Hydra.

I'd say one next option that presents itself from there would be to go with something Arcane & focused on its casting, since the previous two ideas have focused on beatstickery. Another would be to spin that out and replicate the 4 iconic roles with a Master Warrior-type, Master Sneaky-type, Master Mage-type, & Master Divine-type, though the Boneclaw's sort of pulling hybrid duty or torn between divine & warrior-type.

A custom Warhulk(without the crippled skills)/Warblade/Wu Jen/Jade Phoenix Mage Cloud/Storm Giant or Titan might just be interesting for the mighty warrior who is both skilled and can hit 5 different people with the same ultra-precise strike. Though even without the warhulk, it might be interesting.

A Black Ethergaunt(CR 17) with suitable PrCs would be one choice for a monstrous mage's base, and then it could just be filled up with PrCs such as Incanatrix.

A Swordsage-based shadowpouncer of some sort, probably with the Shadow template & Hide In Plain Sight from somewhere + Darkstalker + Mind Blank(?) & maybe Confound the Big Folk might do for the sneaky-type, though I'm blanking on race other than Shadow Whisper Gnome. Maybe with levels in Assassin or going with a shifty-eyed spellcaster (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240) of some variety. Maybe a Blink Dog for the free action dimension door or Choker for the Quickness ability.

Alternatively you could throw in the other 3 elements (Earth, Wind, & Fire (http://youtu.be/Lrle0x_DHBM)) & Life/Positive Energy/Deathless to go with the Water & Death/Negative Energy/Undead and complete the set. Though there's always Pizza (http://youtu.be/Pq7c9Znokp8), too, I suppose.

Hmm, come to think of it, if it were a Cryohydra it'd do double duty as Water & Cold...

[PsyBomb]

Shadowpouncer Hellfire Glaivelock with a few Wizard levels for Abrupt Jaunt, get Strongheart Vest, then Legacy Champion cheese for Glaive strikes around 22d6 each making 3-4 full attacks per round. Stick on a monster of your choice for loads of fun. Unless their HP is expressed in scientific notation, he'll kill 1-2 per turn

[Xaroth]

Unless their HP is expressed in scientific notation

https://quizzicalllama.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/tennantlaughinghysterical.gif

That's a new one. I like you. Are you suggesting this for the Concordant Killer? Because he's Greatsword exclusive.

Althugh I guess I could just say he has a Concordant Glaive instead of a Greatsword, considering he's somewhat different to other Concordant Killers...

[PsyBomb]

https://quizzicalllama.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/tennantlaughinghysterical.gif

That's a new one. I like you. Are you suggesting this for the Concordant Killer? Because he's Greatsword exclusive.

Althugh I guess I could just say he has a Concordant Glaive instead of a Greatsword, considering he's somewhat different to other Concordant Killers...

I was actually talking about a Warlock Gish build focusing around the Eldritch Glaive blast shape, which lets you full-attack with it.

[Xaroth]

Oh, and another source of theming. We've got the Necromantic/Divine from the Boneclaw and the Water/Aquatic from the Hydra.

The Hydra and the Boneclaw are going to be in separate areas from the Sinister 7.


I'd say one next option that presents itself from there would be to go with something Arcane & focused on its casting, since the previous two ideas have focused on beatstickery. Another would be to spin that out and replicate the 4 iconic roles with a Master Warrior-type, Master Sneaky-type, Master Mage-type, & Master Divine-type, though the Boneclaw's sort of pulling hybrid duty or torn between divine & warrior-type.

I think the Demilich Beholder would be suitable for the Arcane caster.


A custom Warhulk(without the crippled skills)/Warblade/Wu Jen/Jade Phoenix Mage Cloud/Storm Giant or Titan might just be interesting for the mighty warrior who is both skilled and can hit 5 different people with the same ultra-precise strike. Though even without the warhulk, it might be interesting.

Iron Colossus? It could lead to a very interesting melee fight.


A Black Ethergaunt(CR 17) with suitable PrCs would be one choice for a monstrous mage's base, and then it could just be filled up with PrCs such as Incanatrix.

I suppose Black Ethergaunt could work, but I still like the Demilich Beholder idea. I'll look more into both and make my call then.


A Swordsage-based shadowpouncer of some sort, probably with the Shadow template & Hide In Plain Sight from somewhere + Darkstalker + Mind Blank(?) & maybe Confound the Big Folk might do for the sneaky-type, though I'm blanking on race other than Shadow Whisper Gnome. Maybe with levels in Assassin or going with a shifty-eyed spellcaster (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240) of some variety. Maybe a Blink Dog for the free action dimension door or Choker for the Quickness ability.

Hm... I'll look into it.


Alternatively you could throw in the other 3 elements (Earth, Wind, & Fire (http://youtu.be/Lrle0x_DHBM)) & Life/Positive Energy/Deathless to go with the Water & Death/Negative Energy/Undead and complete the set. Though there's always Pizza (http://youtu.be/Pq7c9Znokp8), too, I suppose.

Pizza?
*watches video*
...oh. My. God.


Hmm, come to think of it, if it were a Cryohydra it'd do double duty as Water & Cold...

I THINK IT'S PRETTY POWERFUL ALREADY.

[Xaroth]

I was actually talking about a Warlock Gish build focusing around the Eldritch Glaive blast shape, which lets you full-attack with it.

I'll look into it.

[John Longarrow]

For the last boss... go OLD SCHOOL.

Tuckers Kobolds in a Death trap that makes the tomb of horrors look safe.

If they survive to get to the middle, they encounter the ultimate lord of this warren.

Lvl 20 expert - the brewmaster. He rules by being able to make Guinness.

If he is attacked, the entire Dwarven patheon appears to lay some smack down!

Oh, sorry, was this supposed to be in blue??? :elan:

[Xaroth]

For the last boss... go OLD SCHOOL.

Tuckers Kobolds in a Death trap that makes the tomb of horrors look safe.

If they survive to get to the middle, they encounter the ultimate lord of this warren.

Lvl 20 expert - the brewmaster. He rules by being able to make Guinness.

If he is attacked, the entire Dwarven patheon appears to lay some smack down!

Oh, sorry, was this supposed to be in blue??? :elan:

http://i.imgur.com/pSPS5fd.png

Every dwarf in the entire universe appears with the above face.

[TheMooch]

Ok I've got another one, it works mechanically but the fluff on where they are from doesn't. I'm not sure if that matters to you
Marruspawn Abomination
Monster of Legend

Monk 2/Shou Disciple 5/Warlock 5/hellfire warlock 3/legacy champion 10/Binder 1/thayan gladiator 10/souleater 10

Feats
weapon focus(unarmed)
weapon focus(claw)
dodge
toughness
alertness
eldritch claw
beaststrike
mindsight

The idea is that you get a bunch of attacks that deal your eldritch claw with hellfire added on and double your unarmed strike bonus on each hit. In addition to that you drain 2 levels (depending on your reading of souleater). I haven't figured out how to add rapidstrike to this yet

Now this is just a simple base version there are a number of variants you could do since its CR is kinda close to what you already have you could pump this one up to 80-100 pretty easily
duskblade 13 - now when you hit them with claws it hurts more and you could gain some hp
cleric3 and eldritch disciple10 - all the goodness of clericzilla gets added
cleric1 and sacred fist 10 - just grabs the spell casting and ups your damage a bit
you could also combine any combination of these. If you grab duskblade 13 and cleric you could tack mystic theurge on top and still want more you could take telflammar shadowlord 5 and then get even more attacks per round

[PraxisVetli]

Are the Bosses required to be single units?
Could a pack of Swordsage (tiger claw)/Telflammar/Swiftblade Fleshrakers with Shadow and Paragon, Rapidstrike and Improved.
Maybe give them the ELH's Brachyurus' Savage ability for a +2 CR.

Advanced Fleshraker+Shadow+Paragon+Savage
+4Telf+10Swift+10Swordsage

4+1+15+2=22
4+10+10=24
End result is CR 46 each.
Maybe 4 of em?
And give them NoNW with Wrathful Healing and Collision.

Maybe add Warbeast and Monster of Legend.

I've always found Paragon and Monster of Legend to work well together, because if you take the 5th level Cleric casting from MoL, and add Paragon's +15 CL, we houseruled that to mean it essentially combines, granting 20th level Cleric Casting. Then add in Paragon's +13 Special Attack Insight Bonus, to add 13 to all save DC's.
Though you may not enjoy that rule as much.

[Xaroth]

Are the Bosses required to be single units?

Yes, no groups or minions.

[PraxisVetli]

Yes, no groups or minions.

Right on.
Then might I point out the Fiend Folio's Rukanyr? It a pretty little gem, one of my favorite monsters.

[Renen]

Are we talking about CR 50 and higher monsters?

Dont fights at that level end in like 1 round? The group either CAN kill the enemy on their turn, or they all get bitchslapped by a roundhouse kick.

[PraxisVetli]

Are we talking about CR 50 and higher monsters?

Dont fights at that level end in like 1 round? The group either CAN kill the enemy on their turn, or they all get bitchslapped by a roundhouse kick.

Yes and No. I'm currently running a campaign where the players just recently crested 30. As long as noone has a crack OP build, the game functions moderately well. However, with even decent optimization involved, it falls apart quickly. That's why, especially with the large group he has, he need bosses that are way too high level. Add in the the group vs single boss action economy ration, it works out alright. Really, the fact that they're single units is the hardest part. Hence why all the monsters are ridiculously awesome.

[Thealtruistorc]

Somebody name a huge creature with less than 15 total LA

That/Warblade 1/Hulking Hurler 3/War hulk 10/Bloodstorm Blade 10

This thing will weaponize a colossal ball of tungsten and will be deadly enough to fight an entire party on its own, being able to cleave with ranged attacks and hit numerous characters at once for copious damage which I will calculate eventually.

[Xaroth]

Somebody name a huge creature with less than 15 total LA

That/Warblade 1/Hulking Hurler 3/War hulk 10/Bloodstorm Blade 10

This thing will weaponize a colossal ball of tungsten and will be deadly enough to fight an entire party on its own, being able to cleave with ranged attacks and hit numerous characters at once for copious damage which I will calculate eventually.

LA =/= CR, but I kinda see where you're coming from.

[Coidzor]

Yes and No. I'm currently running a campaign where the players just recently crested 30. As long as noone has a crack OP build, the game functions moderately well. However, with even decent optimization involved, it falls apart quickly. That's why, especially with the large group he has, he need bosses that are way too high level. Add in the the group vs single boss action economy ration, it works out alright. Really, the fact that they're single units is the hardest part. Hence why all the monsters are ridiculously awesome.

And they should probably be half-choker, or give their quickness ability for a cr+1 increase, take 8 levels in Factotum, take Travel Devotion with some form of Turning to power it, and/or take 7 levels in Ruby Knight Vindicator, but, there you go.

I suppose another way would be to come up with some kind of Boss template that lets them have several different turns in the initiative count like the way BAB diminishes with each iterative, but if they have minions/allies, they lose access to their extra turns until they have less allies/minions than their extra turns and then they take the difference between their total number of extra turns - the number of allies they have at the start of the round...

[Xaroth]

And they should probably be half-choker, or give their quickness ability for a cr+1 increase, take 8 levels in Factotum, take Travel Devotion with some form of Turning to power it, and/or take 7 levels in Ruby Knight Vindicator, but, there you go.

I suppose another way would be to come up with some kind of Boss template that lets them have several different turns in the initiative count like the way BAB diminishes with each iterative, but if they have minions/allies, they lose access to their extra turns until they have less allies/minions than their extra turns and then they take the difference between their total number of extra turns - the number of allies they have at the start of the round...

That's a damn good idea. Should I make a separate thread for that?

[Coidzor]

That's a damn good idea. Should I make a separate thread for that?

Well, there's the request a homebrew thread & searching around to see if anyone's already formally made a template for that (I've seen the premise of giving bosses extra turns discussed enough to know some have done so)...

No idea where brainstorming/soliciting suggestions for making a template would go between here and the Homebrew sub-forum though. :smallconfused:

[PraxisVetli]

And they should probably be half-choker, or give their quickness ability for a cr+1 increase, take 8 levels in Factotum, take Travel Devotion with some form of Turning to power it, and/or take 7 levels in Ruby Knight Vindicator, but, there you go.

I suppose another way would be to come up with some kind of Boss template that lets them have several different turns in the initiative count like the way BAB diminishes with each iterative, but if they have minions/allies, they lose access to their extra turns until they have less allies/minions than their extra turns and then they take the difference between their total number of extra turns - the number of allies they have at the start of the round...

In my Campaign, my players are fighting what we call Titans, creatures that have sprung up from the slamming together of the Weave as it fills dead zones left by the Time of Troubles. The sort of Thunder effect from the magic roiling in to fill its vacuums imbues creatures with magic, enhancing them and altering them. There was a metal one, for example, that was a super twinked out Giant Wasp effigy that crapped out Rust Dragons, Annihilators, and Steel Predators. It was nuts.


Anyway, I actually have a Titan Template somewhere that's similiar in concept. Though I never thought of giving it multiple Init's. I might have to do that! More to the point, you might enjoy the Abomination type in the ELH.

[Thealtruistorc]

I think I have it.

Harry the Hurler
CN permanently enlarged Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale 3/Warblade 1/Barbarian 1/Bloodstorm Blade 10/Hulking Hurler 3/Frenzied Berserker 10/War Hulk 10
Normal Str Score (16 with point buy): 53
With Frenzy: 63
BAB: +27/22/17/12/7/2
Hurling Capacity
136648 14d6
With Frenzy*
545792 15d6

If any among you can improve upon this, let me know.

[John Longarrow]

Pixie warmage with all the goodies to cut through SR and a twinned/maximized ray of stupidity? Make it a custom reason they get good spells on a warmage, so they do 18 points of Int damage per shot?

THAT should stop a character cold...

[Xaroth]

I think I have it.

Harry the Hurler
CN permanently enlarged Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale 3/Warblade 1/Barbarian 1/Bloodstorm Blade 10/Hulking Hurler 3/Frenzied Berserker 10/War Hulk 10
Normal Str Score (16 with point buy): 53
With Frenzy: 63
BAB: +27/22/17/12/7/2
Hurling Capacity
136648 14d6
With Frenzy*
545792 15d6

If any among you can improve upon this, let me know.

Sweet mother of-

What about the Feral template on it?

[Xaroth]

Pixie warmage with all the goodies to cut through SR and a twinned/maximized ray of stupidity? Make it a custom reason they get good spells on a warmage, so they do 18 points of Int damage per shot?

THAT should stop a character cold...

I kinda want the PCs to stand a chance.

[Xaroth]

So I decided to flick through some books and I've found a few races that would make interesting bosses/mini-bosses. I'm willing to have more than one enemy in a mini-boss room, but not a boss-room.

Flamebrother Salamander (MM pg.218)
Basilisk (MM pg.23)
Balor (MM pg.41)
Horned Devil (MM pg.55)
Tyrannosaurus (MM pg.61)
Any Elemental (MM pg.95-101 or ELH pg.186-189)
Nightwalker (MM pg.196)
Iron Colossus (ELH pg.173)
Adamantine Golem (ELH pg.194)
Lavawight (ELH pg.200)
Three-headed Sirrush (ELH pg.216)
Ragewalker (MM3 pg.132)
Zern Blade Thrall (MM4 pg.198)
Arcadian Avenger (MM5 pg.8)
Guulvorg (MM5 pg.75)
Skull Lord (MM5 pg.155)

[Coidzor]

Sweet mother of-

What about the Feral template on it?

I don't know that Feral would really add that much to the overall Warhulking Hurler+Martial Adept construction.

[TheMooch]

I don't know that Feral would really add that much to the overall Warhulking Hurler+Martial Adept construction.

The problem with that build is that it won't be going first and it can't survive one round. Sure if it gets a turn it drops a PC but it won't

[Xaroth]

So I've decided on what I'm going to aim for in regards to the final boss of the Sinister 7.

A majorly non-magical humanoid that actually looks human.

How I'm going to reach a CR of 85+ with what I'm trying to do is beyond me, but damnit I'll do it.

Basically I'm basing the final boss off of this guy.
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121220155814/gurennlagann/images/1/17/Kamina_with_sword.jpg
Without armor and such.

Oh boy this should be fun.

[Coidzor]

So I've decided on what I'm going to aim for in regards to the final boss of the Sinister 7.

A majorly non-magical humanoid that actually looks human.

How I'm going to reach a CR of 85+ with what I'm trying to do is beyond me, but damnit I'll do it.

Basically I'm basing the final boss off of this guy.
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121220155814/gurennlagann/images/1/17/Kamina_with_sword.jpg
Without armor and such.

Oh boy this should be fun.

Clearly we need the Vow (http://realmofadventure.wikia.com/wiki/Vow_of_Nudity)of Nudity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?45529-Nude-Bard-Sublime-Chord-Heartwarder-Vow-of-Poverty-Build) and some way to extend Vow of Poverty's benefits into Epic Levels.

[Xaroth]

Clearly we need the Vow (http://realmofadventure.wikia.com/wiki/Vow_of_Nudity)of Nudity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?45529-Nude-Bard-Sublime-Chord-Heartwarder-Vow-of-Poverty-Build) and some way to extend Vow of Poverty's benefits into Epic Levels.

*slaps Paragon template on*
*slaps Battle Dancer class on*

Hmmmmmmm...

What would be the ECL of a CR 85 Human with the Paragon Template?

EDIT: HE DOES ACTUALLY WEAR CLOTHES SO VOW OF NUDITY KINDA WOULDN'T WORK

[Coidzor]

*slaps Paragon template on*
*slaps Battle Dancer class on*

Hmmmmmmm...

What would be the ECL of a CR 85 Human with the Paragon Template?

Depends on how you made it CR 85, mostly. Also, Paragon doesn't have a listed LA, which puts giving such a creature an ECL into the realm of homebrew/houseruling. I don't know what sort of CR increase or LA increase Paragon is "really worth."

Battle Dancer's not the best of classes to begin with, either.

[Xaroth]

Depends on how you made it CR 85, mostly. Also, Paragon doesn't have a listed LA, which puts giving such a creature an ECL into the realm of homebrew/houseruling. I don't know what sort of CR increase or LA increase Paragon is "really worth."

Battle Dancer's not the best of classes to begin with, either.

Alright, assuming no Paragon and purely classes.

Battle Dancer's just there for the unarmored CHA to AC bonus.

Personally I think it'd have an LA of +10 at least.

[Xaroth]

What theme should I make the dungeon for the Concordant Killer boss? And what would be a good mini-boss?

[PsyBomb]

Creating a CR85 Kamina will be interesting...

Warblade, Battle Sorc, Swiftblade, Abjurant Champion, Kensai, JPM, then add in various templates as desired... Refluff his Mage Armor as an aura of Pure Bada** and you'll be in-line with the character.

[Xaroth]

Creating a CR85 Kamina will be interesting...

Warblade, Battle Sorc, Swiftblade, Abjurant Champion, Kensai, JPM, thenadd in various templates as desired... Refluff his Mage Armor as an aura of Pure Bada** and you'll be in-line with the character.

Seems like a good call.

[PraxisVetli]

Hey.
Maybe I'm drunk, but a
Awakend Ooze Selective Spell Antimagic Field Living Spell with spellcasting, whatever can lay out the most debuffs. Curses and such. Take Multispell a bunch.
Instead of killing. Try to shut down the party instead. Leave them blind and paralyzed.

[Bluydee]

Admiral Gravyeous


Thri-Kreen Swordsage 20/Dervish 10/Thrall of Demogorgon 4/Cleric 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Disciple of Dispater 8

61 pointbuy (Its epic, isn't it?)
12 points from leveling
STR: 20 (+5)
DEX: 34 (+12)
CON: 18 (+4)
INT: 12 (+1)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 10 (+0)

Gets 17 feats with flaws

Lightning Mace (3)
Snap Kick (2)
Improved Critical (1)
MWF line (5)
Shadow Blade (benefiting from already high dex) (1)
Weapon Finesse (likewise) (1)
Superior Unarmed Strike (already has prerequisites and aptitude weapon) (1)

That leaves 3 open feats left when taking into account the prerequisites

We take Raging Mongoose, Inferno Blade, Time Stands Still, a Belt of Battle and an Aptitude weapon.

We have

16 base
17 with Snap Kick
25 with raging mongoose (ignore maximum attacks through DM fiat and because that rule makes zero sense anyways)
50 with Thousand Cuts
75 with Belt of Battle
100 as Dual Action (from Thrall) gives 2 full round worth of actions in 1 turn
125 with Time Stands Still

If you use aptitude crescent knives, you might be able to replace the pitiful 1d3 with a 2d6 if you read it going that way with the aptitude enchantment and superior unarmed strike and thus attack 250 times. You can also use dancing mongoose and net 20 attacks.

You also get lots more attacks with lightning mace and crit fishing.

By this point, give him warforged grafts and make him a half golem as this is basically already General Grievous enough.

Start the fight by "happening" to place him right next to the cocky player you talked about. Laugh if he dies.

I might've gotten a few things wrong regarding maneuvers. Otherwise, he is a blending machine. His CR is 52, although you can add paragon or monster of legend if needed to make him even stronger.

[Xaroth]

Admiral Gravyeous


Thri-Kreen Swordsage 20/Dervish 10/Thrall of Demogorgon 4/Cleric 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Disciple of Dispater 8

61 pointbuy (Its epic, isn't it?)
12 points from leveling
STR: 20 (+5)
DEX: 34 (+12)
CON: 18 (+4)
INT: 12 (+1)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 10 (+0)

Gets 17 feats with flaws

Lightning Mace (3)
Snap Kick (2)
Improved Critical (1)
MWF line (5)
Shadow Blade (benefiting from already high dex) (1)
Weapon Finesse (likewise) (1)
Superior Unarmed Strike (already has prerequisites and aptitude weapon) (1)

That leaves 3 open feats left when taking into account the prerequisites

We take Raging Mongoose, Inferno Blade, Time Stands Still, a Belt of Battle and an Aptitude weapon.

We have

16 base
17 with Snap Kick
25 with raging mongoose (ignore maximum attacks through DM fiat and because that rule makes zero sense anyways)
50 with Thousand Cuts
75 with Belt of Battle
100 as Dual Action (from Thrall) gives 2 full round worth of actions in 1 turn
125 with Time Stands Still

If you use aptitude crescent knives, you might be able to replace the pitiful 1d3 with a 2d6 if you read it going that way with the aptitude enchantment and superior unarmed strike and thus attack 250 times. You can also use dancing mongoose and net 20 attacks.

You also get lots more attacks with lightning mace and crit fishing.

By this point, give him warforged grafts and make him a half golem as this is basically already General Grievous enough.

Start the fight by "happening" to place him right next to the cocky player you talked about. Laugh if he dies.

I might've gotten a few things wrong regarding maneuvers. Otherwise, he is a blending machine. His CR is 52, although you can add paragon or monster of legend if needed to make him even stronger.

Hella Epic. And I'm not going for a one-turn kill kinda boss, I'm going for one that will give an interesting and fun challenge, and I already have an NPC that I actually have a separate story for (kinda) that isn't a Deity, but may as well be, that I'm thinking of throwing against the players if they piss me off enough. As for the cocky player, I talked with him and he was quite understanding, so I'm good with him now, no real reason to target him specifically.

I'll keep this build in mind, though. Thanks. I may actually try doing this with my Dwarf in another DM's campaign...

[Xaroth]

Hey.
Maybe I'm drunk, but a
Awakend Ooze Selective Spell Antimagic Field Living Spell with spellcasting, whatever can lay out the most debuffs. Curses and such. Take Multispell a bunch.
Instead of killing. Try to shut down the party instead. Leave them blind and paralyzed.

Hm, that could be fun. In the dungeon they're currently in they didn't bother checking for traps and that resulted in them being trapped in a Forcecage for 26 hours. Then, when they finished fighting off the horde of enemies that were waiting outside of the Forcecage for them, they went and opened the door.

Without disabling the trap.

Leading to another 26 hours in a Forcecage. I was sitting there like "...seriously guys? Seriously?"

[Xaroth]

The bosses themselves haven't been created, but this is the outline I'm going for.

1st Dungeon:
Sub-boss(es) - Basilisk & Guulvore - CR ~45
Boss - Concordant Killer - CR ~50
Optional boss(es) - Nightwalker - CR ~55

2nd Dungeon:
Sub-boss(es) - Horned Devil - CR ~50
Boss - Balor - CR ~55
Optional boss(es) - N/A

3rd Dungeon:
Sub-boss(es) - Iron Colossus & Adamantine Golem - CR ~55
Boss - Primal Earth Elemental - CR 60 (complete (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17623732&postcount=73))
Optional boss(es) - 2 Deathdrinkers - CR ~65

4th Dungeon:
Sub-boss(es) - Tyrannosaurus - CR ~60
Boss - Zern Blade Thrall - CR ~65
Optional boss(es) - N/A

5th Dungeon:
Sub-boss(es) - Lavawight - CR ~65
Boss - Arcadian Avenger - CR ~70
Optional boss(es) - N/A

6th Dungeon:
Sub-boss(es) - Ragewalker & Flamebrother Salamander - CR ~70
Boss - Briarvex - CR ~75
Optional boss(es) - Thunderbird - CR ~80

7th Dungeon:
Sub-boss(es) - Monster of Legend Feral Gargun - CR ~80
Boss - Paragon Human - CR ~85
Optional boss(es) - Sephiroth (this should be fun) - CR ~90

[PsyBomb]

I'll get to building the paragon Human Kamina, probably tonight

[Xaroth]

I'll get to building the paragon Human Kamina, probably tonight

The Monster of Legend Feral Gargun is just Viral, for the record.

[Xaroth]

So currently as the Paragon Primal Earth Elemental stands it has a CR of 50 but I'm not sure what to do with the remaining CR ~10. I might increase it by 40 HD, but currently this is what it's like.

Race: Paragon Primal Earth Elemental

Size: Colossal

Initiative: +10 (+6 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)

HP: 96d8+1152+1728 (3648)

AC/Touch/F-F: 80/40/74 (-8 size, +6 Dex, +48 Natural, +12 Luck, +12 Insight)

Speed: 60ft., burrow 120ft.

Face/Reach: 40ft. by 40ft./25ft.

Stats:
STR - 58
DEX - 23
CON - 46
INT - 23
WIS - 28
CHA - 28

Saving Throws:
Fort: +78
Ref: +50
Will: +53

Special Attacks:
Earth Mastery
Push

Special Qualities:
Elemental Traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#elementalType)
DR 35/+8 (plus 9/-)
Earth Subtype
Fire and Cold Resistance 10
DR 10/Epic
SR 75
Fast Healing 20

Feats:
Alertness
Cleave
Combat Reflexes
Great Cleave
Improved Critical (Slam)
Improved Initiative
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Power Attack
Sunder
Weapon Focus
-----------------------EPIC------------------------------
Damage Reduction (x3)
Devastating Critical (Slam)
Epic Weapon Focus (Slam)
Overwhelming Critical (Slam)

Attack: +108/+103/+98/+93 melee
Damage: Slam 4d10+52/19-20

Skills:
Listen +93
Spot +93

CR: 50

[PraxisVetli]

Wow.
Are you asking for help with all of these?
because I might be willing to do some.

[Xaroth]

Wow.
Are you asking for help with all of these?
because I might be willing to do some.

Well, I'm not necessarily asking for help, but if people want to help they're more than welcome to do so.

Due to the fact that I'm not sure how it works, I'm not allowing Psionics. If there's anything that has psionic abilities that i've listed, it won't have those abilities.

[Xaroth]

3rd Dungeon Boss completed.

Race: Pseudonatural Paragon Primal Earth Elemental

Size: Colossal

Initiative: +15 (+11 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)

HP: 96d8+1152+2208 (4128)

AC/Touch/F-F: 85/45/74 (-8 size, +11 Dex, +48 Natural, +12 Luck, +12 Insight)

Speed: 120ft., burrow 240ft.

Face/Reach: 40ft. by 40ft./25ft.

Stats:
STR - 80
DEX - 33
CON - 56
INT - 23
WIS - 38
CHA - 28

Saving Throws:
Fort: +83
Ref: +55
Will: +58

Special Attacks:
Earth Mastery
Push
Constant Insight
Improved Grab
Rotting Constriction

Special Qualities:
Elemental Traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#elementalType)
DR 35/+8 (plus 9/-)
Earth Subtype
Fire and Cold Resistance 10
Electricity and Acid Resistance 130
DR 15/Epic
SR 480
Fast Healing 20
Alternate Form

Spell-Like Abilities:
At will - blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow. CL 20th.

Feats:
Alertness
Cleave
Combat Reflexes
Great Cleave
Improved Critical (Slam)
Improved Initiative
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Power Attack
Sunder
Weapon Focus
-----------------------EPIC------------------------------
Damage Reduction (x3)
Devastating Critical (Slam)
Epic Weapon Focus (Slam)
Overwhelming Critical (Slam)

Attack: Slam +123/+118/+113/+108 melee (4d10+63/19-20)
Full Attack: 24 Tentacle Rakes +123 Melee (2d8+63)

Skills:
Listen +98
Spot +98

CR: 60

[Bluydee]

I can help do Balor, if you want.

[IIzak]

Ok I've got another one, it works mechanically but the fluff on where they are from doesn't. I'm not sure if that matters to you
Marruspawn Abomination
Monster of Legend

Monk 2/Shou Disciple 5/Warlock 5/hellfire warlock 3/legacy champion 10/Binder 1/thayan gladiator 10/souleater 10

Feats
weapon focus(unarmed)
weapon focus(claw)
dodge
toughness
alertness
eldritch claw
beaststrike
mindsight

The idea is that you get a bunch of attacks that deal your eldritch claw with hellfire added on and double your unarmed strike bonus on each hit. In addition to that you drain 2 levels (depending on your reading of souleater). I haven't figured out how to add rapidstrike to this yet

Now this is just a simple base version there are a number of variants you could do since its CR is kinda close to what you already have you could pump this one up to 80-100 pretty easily
duskblade 13 - now when you hit them with claws it hurts more and you could gain some hp
cleric3 and eldritch disciple10 - all the goodness of clericzilla gets added
cleric1 and sacred fist 10 - just grabs the spell casting and ups your damage a bit
you could also combine any combination of these. If you grab duskblade 13 and cleric you could tack mystic theurge on top and still want more you could take telflammar shadowlord 5 and then get even more attacks per round

I might be a little behind with this, but is there any way that this build might benefit from a little incarnum? toss in some levels of totemist for extra attacks (Not 100% sure it would work with the clawlock stuff, but I think it does, and you could gain some cool benefits from different soulmelds?)

[PraxisVetli]

Ew!
Pseudonatural Earth Elemental..
I pictures the tentacles as fleshy still.

[Xaroth]

I can help do Balor, if you want.

Sure. But as I've stated before, no psionics are allowed. Also I'm willing to homebrew a little, but it really depends on what it is. If it's switching the Balor's type of weapon, for example, then I'm cool with that. If it's changing the Balor's fiery skin to lightning skin, I'm not. But run it by me regardless if you have an idea.

[Xaroth]

Ew!
Pseudonatural Earth Elemental..
I pictures the tentacles as fleshy still.

Yeah, that is quite disturbing, I guess.

ALL THE MORE REASON TO THROW IT AT MY PARTY
http://th01.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2013/187/7/1/i_lied_in_hd_by_lemmino-d6c7jtp.png

Also, does anyone know how class levels translate to CR? I'm not sure what counts as associated class levels and what doesn't.

[Xaroth]

Oh, little heads up: For the bosses/sub-bosses I'll either stick with the normal stats for that monster, or I'll go with my custom boss array, which is 18, 18, 16, 16, 14, 10. Ignore the elite arrays and such and either stick with the Monster's or stick with the boss array.

[Azraile]

lol I would suggest some of the sins from my two groups of the 7 sins a BBG is churning out

They are prity serious chars....

But they are very much homebrew

lust 1 - a humanoid construct, a homunculus that appears fully human save her cellular structure is made of long tubular cells that are mostly full of energy. They can void out the magical energy and flatten out to the point she can ether shape shift by controlling them individual... or just strait out flatten to only a few mm thick. The cell structure also has pigmentation that can change size allowing her to make her body any combination of colors letting her blind into anything, and the cells can magically harden allowing her to make natural weapons out of just about any part of her body. By DnD standards she has a charsima of 30, a high dex and would be considered an assassin with high diplomatic and seductive skills.

lust 2 - simply put, is a mind virus... and by dnd standards would be likely be represented by a body swapping Psionic.

Both lusts are low end...

Gluttony 1 - a were-scarab / mummy like char that devours flesh for energy and spews forth corruption, by DnD would be an anti-palladin of Apophis. Has low dex and don't even try to avoid attacks.... deffence though is off the charts.

Gluttony 2 - 1 was scary... 2 is.... apocholiptic.... think HD 50 dread necromancer that has 100% over everything dead..... is able to make death things GROW... dead flesh reprodcing more dead flesh.... also has control over that wich feeds on death to some point... genneraly everything that's part of the prossess of death and rot. Then think about this..... dead hair, dead skin, finger nails... cavities, moles, tumors ad the like... just how much dead rotting flesh is in a person..... as if a necromancer wasn't scary enugh right? o.o

Sloth 1 - he's a big fat discusting slob who is a powerfull magic user and a master of gravity magic. Just kinda floats around and makes people do things for him. He is rather dangerous in his own but exstreamly lazy. What makes him scary though is he secretes a drug from his body that induces a state of peace and serenity while removing all fears that is on the verge of pure bliss. The dt's for it though make people insaintly violent, unable to fear pain, and lose any concern about there own well being. He uses this drug to control a rather sizable drug cartel giving him quite the army of fanatical followers that will do anything when the dt's set in.

sloth 2 - it's a slowly spreading near indistractably crystal formation.... not to exsighting but it's alive and growing... and hard as heck to kill.

Greed 1 - this fits into dnd very well.... make an optimized swashbuckler. Give him an artifact hilt that can (with a high dc on a use magic device roll) create any magical sword there is, including some artifact swords. And then give him a luck bonus on everything of like +20 or more. It's a good thing in my game he's greedy enough to turn on the BBG

Greed 2 - is way higher end than 1... and I'm not sure how she would fit into DnD... She is a weak singularity, a pocket reality, (think a bag of holding big enugh to hold a moon) that is contained with in a creepy necromanic doll made from her own skin. She has a good deal of control over space and compleate control over mater and space inside her own reality (and can appear inside herself in any size or form she wants). She tends to look at everything in exsistance as her toys and she wants to collect all the toys! She has a very child like demenor though she is like 120 years old or so, she behaves just like a spoiled little girl.... one that wants to use you as a toy in her own personal play land.

Envy 1 - think shapeshifer/doppelganger that has the ability to take on near any form any size (ozze like main form) add is able to absorb people taking on there properties and heals constantly at a high level. Wouldn't be good in a colosium setting lol... would start eating the audiance XD. It's envy... it wants what you have, so it will be you! O.O

Envy 2 - Two exstreamly powerfull demons .... oh well thats what it seams... there is three.... two twin brothers and a sister. The brothers are hulking beasts, the sister... well she's inside them. They fight over her and she exists in a sorta demonstration Siamese twin space of some sort... they pull her back and forth into each others bodies through there link to each other. Mainly because they ARE envy and they are jealously fighting over her, and the rest because she heals them rapidly healing which ever one she is in, and able to reselect one from the other. This means she has to die first.... kinda hard thing to do being she's inside them.

Pride 1 - another easy cross over it's CODZILA! lol ok he's a monk/cleric with a staff that prity much makes him a sorcerer too.

Pride 2 - poor girl was tempted by the BBG with power instead she ended up with a charisma of 1 and drained uggly as sin with all her power used to focus into powering sloth 2 lol

Wrath well 1 was rather situational for the game and I would change..... and 2... I haven't figured out yet......


Hopefully these can give you some ideas though.

[Xaroth]

lol I would suggest some of the sins from my two groups of the 7 sins a BBG is churning out

They are prity serious chars....

But they are very much homebrew

lust 1 - a humanoid construct, a homunculus that appears fully human save her cellular structure is made of long tubular cells that are mostly full of energy. They can void out the magical energy and flatten out to the point she can ether shape shift by controlling them individual... or just strait out flatten to only a few mm thick. The cell structure also has pigmentation that can change size allowing her to make her body any combination of colors letting her blind into anything, and the cells can magically harden allowing her to make natural weapons out of just about any part of her body. By DnD standards she has a charsima of 30, a high dex and would be considered an assassin with high diplomatic and seductive skills.

lust 2 - simply put, is a mind virus... and by dnd standards would be likely be represented by a body swapping Psionic.

Both lusts are low end...

Gluttony 1 - a were-scarab / mummy like char that devours flesh for energy and spews forth corruption, by DnD would be an anti-palladin of Apophis. Has low dex and don't even try to avoid attacks.... deffence though is off the charts.

Gluttony 2 - 1 was scary... 2 is.... apocholiptic.... think HD 50 dread necromancer that has 100% over everything dead..... is able to make death things GROW... dead flesh reprodcing more dead flesh.... also has control over that wich feeds on death to some point... genneraly everything that's part of the prossess of death and rot. Then think about this..... dead hair, dead skin, finger nails... cavities, moles, tumors ad the like... just how much dead rotting flesh is in a person..... as if a necromancer wasn't scary enugh right? o.o

Sloth 1 - he's a big fat discusting slob who is a powerfull magic user and a master of gravity magic. Just kinda floats around and makes people do things for him. He is rather dangerous in his own but exstreamly lazy. What makes him scary though is he secretes a drug from his body that induces a state of peace and serenity while removing all fears that is on the verge of pure bliss. The dt's for it though make people insaintly violent, unable to fear pain, and lose any concern about there own well being. He uses this drug to control a rather sizable drug cartel giving him quite the army of fanatical followers that will do anything when the dt's set in.

sloth 2 - it's a slowly spreading near indistractably crystal formation.... not to exsighting but it's alive and growing... and hard as heck to kill.

Greed 1 - this fits into dnd very well.... make an optimized swashbuckler. Give him an artifact hilt that can (with a high dc on a use magic device roll) create any magical sword there is, including some artifact swords. And then give him a luck bonus on everything of like +20 or more. It's a good thing in my game he's greedy enough to turn on the BBG

Greed 2 - is way higher end than 1... and I'm not sure how she would fit into DnD... She is a weak singularity, a pocket reality, (think a bag of holding big enugh to hold a moon) that is contained with in a creepy necromanic doll made from her own skin. She has a good deal of control over space and compleate control over mater and space inside her own reality (and can appear inside herself in any size or form she wants). She tends to look at everything in exsistance as her toys and she wants to collect all the toys! She has a very child like demenor though she is like 120 years old or so, she behaves just like a spoiled little girl.... one that wants to use you as a toy in her own personal play land.

Envy 1 - think shapeshifer/doppelganger that has the ability to take on near any form any size (ozze like main form) add is able to absorb people taking on there properties and heals constantly at a high level. Wouldn't be good in a colosium setting lol... would start eating the audiance XD. It's envy... it wants what you have, so it will be you! O.O

Envy 2 - Two exstreamly powerfull demons .... oh well thats what it seams... there is three.... two twin brothers and a sister. The brothers are hulking beasts, the sister... well she's inside them. They fight over her and she exists in a sorta demonstration Siamese twin space of some sort... they pull her back and forth into each others bodies through there link to each other. Mainly because they ARE envy and they are jealously fighting over her, and the rest because she heals them rapidly healing which ever one she is in, and able to reselect one from the other. This means she has to die first.... kinda hard thing to do being she's inside them.

Pride 1 - another easy cross over it's CODZILA! lol ok he's a monk/cleric with a staff that prity much makes him a sorcerer too.

Pride 2 - poor girl was tempted by the BBG with power instead she ended up with a charisma of 1 and drained uggly as sin with all her power used to focus into powering sloth 2 lol

Wrath well 1 was rather situational for the game and I would change..... and 2... I haven't figured out yet......


Hopefully these can give you some ideas though.

The contribution is appreciated, but I'm trying to homebrew as little as possible.

[Azraile]

I know why I said hopefuly it can give you some ideas....

The 7 sins though is a nice theme for 7 baddies

I just wish I could come up with a non-traditional solution for wrath x.x

the 2nd one... got one for the first one.

But I wan't to stay far away from the typical with this stuff..... and it's hard to do with wrath, and still keep the "hey this guys infused with a daemon of wrath" thing

[Xaroth]

I know why I said hopefuly it can give you some ideas....

The 7 sins though is a nice theme for 7 baddies

I just wish I could come up with a non-traditional solution for wrath x.x

the 2nd one... got one for the first one.

But I wan't to stay far away from the typical with this stuff..... and it's hard to do with wrath, and still keep the "hey this guys infused with a daemon of wrath" thing

What exactly are you trying to stray from? Do you mean you don't want to go for a War Hulking Hurler Barbarian build?

[PsyBomb]

Oh, little heads up: For the bosses/sub-bosses I'll either stick with the normal stats for that monster, or I'll go with my custom boss array, which is 18, 18, 16, 16, 14, 10. Ignore the elite arrays and such and either stick with the Monster's or stick with the boss array.

And Kamina just got an upgrade. I'd been using 36 point-buy, and also making sure he was playable through the entire career. Speaking of, are we following ELH rules for levels above 20. Or just stacking things up the same as before?

[Xaroth]

And Kamina just got an upgrade. I'd been using 36 point-buy, and also making sure he was playable through the entire career. Speaking of, are we following ELH rules for levels above 20. Or just stacking things up the same as before?

Wait, so you were making a level-by-level table for a CR 85 Kamina? Holy hell, that must be one long table.

Eh...I'm not sure. Go with whichever makes you more comfortable.

EDIT: Could you also mention what stats you put where?

[PsyBomb]

Wait, so you were making a level-by-level table for a CR 85 Kamina? Holy hell, that must be one long table.

Eh...I'm not sure. Go with whichever makes you more comfortable.

EDIT: Could you also mention what stats you put where?

When I do a project, I do it right :D

Anyway, base stats the new way (before template adjustments):

Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 18
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

LG, due to the character, plus it lets us use Luminous Armor (which gets the Abjurant bonus). Has a Mythril Buckler (looks like a bracer) and an ultralight suit of armor to hang enchants on, neither of which has any ASF. He's focusing on Melee, with a ton of long-term buffs, so didn't need all that much Charisma. 10 base is enough once Paragon adjusts it. AC is basically going to be "No", with saves not far behind, and probably 4-digit HP. Going to take the Epic Extra Spell Slot a few times to get a bunch of over-leveled slots for Persisted buffs, and going to see what the easiest way to get Giant Growth will be (make sure to have the fight somewhere he can grow). Also going to take Sudden Quicken (need to look at the rules text to see if I can do it twice), and the FIRST thing you should do in combat is Quickened Disjunction. Because I'm evil like that.

It's interesting to note that this guy is going to be able to solo-tackle large adventuring parties... of Epic-Level Paragon LeShay... solo. Moreover, he would have to do so 20-30 times to level up again.

I have built 43 of the CR so far, with another 20 or so easily tacked on. Arcane CL is at 21 so far, do you want me to take the Epic Spellcasting feat? It's easy to put Win Buttons together there, but almost seems unfair (and this coming from a guy crafting a CR 85 encounter).

EDIT: Also note that, once he casts Haste on himself, he can cast an Antimagic Field and not lose the effect. Once Swiftblade 6 hits, the effect is EX once active. This includes 50% miss chance.

[Xaroth]

When I do a project, I do it right :D

Anyway, base stats the new way (before template adjustments):

Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 18
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

LG, due to the character, plus it lets us use Luminous Armor (which gets the Abjurant bonus). Has a Mythril Buckler (looks like a bracer) and an ultralight suit of armor to hang enchants on, neither of which has any ASF. He's focusing on Melee, with a ton of long-term buffs, so didn't need all that much Charisma. 10 base is enough once Paragon adjusts it. Going to take the Epic Extra Spell Slot a few times to get a bunch of over-leveled slots for Persisted buffs, and going to see what the easiest way to get Giant Growth will be (make sure to have the fight somewhere he can grow).

It's interesting to note that this guy is going to be able to solo-tackle large adventuring parties... of Epic-Level Paragon LeShay... solo. Moreover, he would have to do so 20-30 times to level up again.

I have built 43 of the CR so far, with another 20 or so easily tacked on. Arcane CL is at 21 so far, do you want me to take the Epic Spellcasting feat? It's easy to put Win Buttons together there, but almost seems unfair (and this coming from a guy crafting a CR 85 encounter)

Kamina's almost definitely Chaotic Good. And why is he getting spells?

I planned to have the fight in something of a throne room, since he'll be the final boss, similar to Alucard's room in the Hellsing Ultimate franchise.http://i.imgur.com/gsAJysW.jpg Except bigger. And brighter. If you're aware that ECL =/= CR, what's Kamina's ECL at the moment? Assume Paragon is +13.

[PsyBomb]

Kamina's almost definitely Chaotic Good. And why is he getting spells?

I planned to have the fight in something of a throne room, since he'll be the final boss, similar to Alucard's room in the Hellsing Ultimate franchise.http://i.imgur.com/gsAJysW.jpg Except bigger. And brighter. If you're aware that ECL =/= CR, what's Kamina's ECL at the moment? Assume Paragon is +13.

CG is debatable, since he has an iron-clad code of honor that he NEVER violates. Any Good will work, though.

As for spellcasting... well, I have a fluff and a mechanics reason. Fluff, he frequently makes the completely impossible happen by willing it to be (not fireballs and such, but think of the first time Gurren Lagan forms). That is either spellcasting or Psionics, and you don't like Psionics. Mechanically, it is basically not possible to challenge a group with a nonmagical character at that point, plus Swiftblade was just TOO perfect. Flavor it as his fighting spirit , since he only casts buffs and dispel/disjoin

[Xaroth]

CG is debatable, since he has an iron-clad code of honor that he NEVER violates. Any Good will work, though.

As for spellcasting... well, I have a fluff and a mechanics reason. Fluff, he frequently makes the completely impossible happen by willing it to be (not fireballs and such, but think of the first time Gurren Lagan forms). That is either spellcasting or Psionics, and you don't like Psionics. Mechanically, it is basically not possible to challenge a group with a nonmagical character at that point, plus Swiftblade was just TOO perfect. Flavor it as his fighting spirit , since he only casts buffs and dispel/disjoin

Understandable. And yeah, the code of honor thing makes sense.

Common mistake is that people assume I don't like psionics which is why I don't allow it: It's actually because I haven't gotten around to understanding psionics yet. But same difference, I guess.

Yeah, by that point a nonmagical character would be stupidly difficult to create while keeping it as a boss fight and not a "Roll initiatives. *one turn later* He's dead" fight. I want my boss fights to be boss fights, not that kind of fight. So good on you.

I think the first time Gurren Lagann formed Kamina was just doing it to spite Viral and didn't actually expect what happened next to happen.

Which makes it 10x funnier in my books.

[Azraile]

What exactly are you trying to stray from? Do you mean you don't want to go for a War Hulking Hurler Barbarian build?

Sums it up well enough.

I want to go with something other than the typical "the big stupid fighter" type role lol

Envy is the big stupid fighter of group 2

[Xaroth]

Sums it up well enough.

I want to go with something other than the typical "the big stupid fighter" type role lol

Envy is the big stupid fighter of group 2

Well, why not a quick, angry fighter? An evil Concordant Killer seems perfect for the role. Look through the MM4 for it, it's on page 34.

[Azraile]

actualy i'm thinking a sith lord as a fall back for wrath..... lol not really one.... but some one who thinks they are

But as a demonin infused human assent into a Nephilim after being forced to fuse with his own psychopomp...... lol


At that point, if he says he's a sith lord..... he's a freaking sith lord.... he's anything he damn well wants to be crazy or not

Anakim (insane incorrectly born/created Nephilim) are no joke o.o most can just kinda twist reality around there pinky finger

[Azraile]

The one exsample of one (if I rmember corectly) was created by scientific exsperimentation and he had thought he had been abdicted by aliens for genetic exsperimintation.....

He ended up turning into a 7 foot gray/human hybrid with crazy psyonic powers and called down a small alien invation before he was killed....

.... there were no aliens till he 'called home' for them.... he just willed the intire invation force into beeing with out knowing he had done it

[Azraile]

As for greed 1 he could work in dnd quite easly

just make a high level swashbuckler give him demon infustions to bump his dexterity up to twice his other stats and give him crazy luck bonuses on save throws and skills. (like +20 luck saves and +40 luck on skills)

and:

The makers master (su) - With luck and dedication this char has become so proficent with the Sword of Making that using it's power only fails on a roll of 1, any other roll deturments the action need: 2~10 Full action; 11~16 standard action; 17~19 quick action; 20 move action.

and:

The Sword of Making
Aura Artifact; CL n/a
Slot Weapon; Weight varies ; invaluable

This hilt, while made out of rare and valuable metals, seams to be quite worthless with no blade or magical aura. However successfully activating the Sword of Making causes a blade to 'grow' from the hilt. This blade must have an enhancement level and do magical damage of some sort, and may have special abilities. The Sword can draw upon the powers of any other sword that has ever been made save for intelligent artifact swords. Creating the blade of an intelligent sword dose not copy the intellect and the blade has no ego, nor is the sword able to reproduce powers centered in the hilt of the swords... only the blades.

Creating a blade from the sword requires a use magic item check with a DC of 15+(CL needed to create the sword x 2)+(5 x the number of abilities needed to create the sword not possessed by it's user)+(3x the total enhancement of the sword)+(30 if the sword is epic) This takes a full round action, success or fail any current blade dissolves into nothing. Beating the DC by 15 reduces the action to a standard action, by 20 a quick action, and 25 a move action.


Edit the DC to balance how ever you need to..... so they don't go making god slaying swords when they claim it for loot XD

[rg9000]

Over templated rabbit (Monty Python style)

[Azraile]

you could templent the heck out of a rabbit.... it could beat a level 1.... but not a level 50.... there is only so much templets can do....

now..... give a rabbit a devine rank of say 15..... >.>

[Xaroth]

Over templated rabbit (Monty Python style)

Plot twist: the Paragon human isn't the final boss, you enter the room and he makes his speech, but half-way through he gets mauled by an innocent rabbit. Roll initiatives.

But no, I've already got set what I'm going to have for each dungeon.

[Xaroth]

Working on the Concordant Killer now. Giving him Warblade 20 and dipping into Blade Dancer for the unarmored bonus to AC. Diamond Mind and Iron Heart seem to be the most viable options given the Concordant Killer's +29 Concentration without any increases. at CR ~50 he should have quite a high Concentration, so I'm thinking of taking Epic Skill Focus for Concentration as well as Skill Focus. With no increases (I'm aware I'd have to advance somehow to get the two feats but assuming I don't have to) that'd make it +42 Concentration, which is pretty good in my books at ECL... something.

[Azraile]

well ether way what do you think of the 'sword' lol

[Promises Kept]

Mind if I take a crack at the Arcadian Avenger? I haven't had a chance to flex my uber-high level muscles in a while. Did you have a particular theme in mind for it, or did you just want a sort of paragon of what they're supposed to represent, an implacable force of Law and Good that will cut you up if you don't stick to the straight and narrow?

[Xaroth]

Mind if I take a crack at the Arcadian Avenger? I haven't had a chance to flex my uber-high level muscles in a while. Did you have a particular theme in mind for it, or did you just want a sort of paragon of what they're supposed to represent, an implacable force of Law and Good that will cut you up if you don't stick to the straight and narrow?

It's a boss, I want it to fight them just for walking into the damn room. And sure, go nuts. Since Associated Class Levels/non-associated class levels are apparently an "Ask your DM" situation and I'm the DM, unless it seems like something that obviously an associated class (for the Arcadian Avenger it'd be Paladin, Crusader, or Knight for example), treat it as a non-associated class.

[Xaroth]

well ether way what do you think of the 'sword' lol

It's powerful. Definitely powerful.

GIVING IT TO A BOSS AND HAVING IT DESTROYED WHEN THE BOSS DIES SEEMS LIKE A WONDERFUL IDEA.

[Deaxsa]

because of the way you're doing it, making a non-combat encounter would be VERY hard to do... unless it came out of left field. maybe the announcer or whatever is actually one of the bosses, and you have to talk him into/out of something? basically, i really think that making one of them NOT a combat encounter would make it so much more interesting.

[Xaroth]

because of the way you're doing it, making a non-combat encounter would be VERY hard to do... unless it came out of left field. maybe the announcer or whatever is actually one of the bosses, and you have to talk him into/out of something? basically, i really think that making one of them NOT a combat encounter would make it so much more interesting.

Well the boss' lives are linked to a door that allows them to enter the next dungeon.

I was thinking of having a riddle master, or having a riddle on each door. Everything in the last dungeon will be combat, though.

[Azraile]

or giving it to the boss and then make the requirments, feats needed, and DC checks so rediculous that he was the only one that could actualy use the darn thing so when they try and use it they just destroy the blade and can't get a new one to form

[Promises Kept]

Yeah, actually, forget what I said. I got to CR 40 and my write up of abilities started including terms like "Immune to (most) Damage" and "Arbitrarily High Attack Bonus" and "840 attacks per round (Which, with Vorpal Weapons and Persistent Dolorous Blow, means more or less an auto-kill on the entire party round 1)," all of which seem way more ludicrous than you'd intended. I'm not sure how to keep things within a reasonable level of power at CR 30+. And even writing this post, I've been considering how to expand that to 8400 attacks per round, so... yeah. I'm not the right person for this build.

[PsyBomb]

My guy is up to ECL 60 or so, and we're talking about running around with EX Haste that includes a 50% miss chance, spamming Swift Disjunctions while in a Selective AMF, and self-buffed until his AC and saves are "No".

... and this is a Melee character.

[Promises Kept]

Yeah, mine is (technically) melee, too. If I could find some more ways to get main hand attacks, PMWF would even better. The Persistent AMF that he can ignore and the immunity to dispelling and so on might be fun with a few more levels on him, but I don't intend to continue, given that I've overdone it already.

And really, AC and saves are sorta moot at this level, when you can either spam so many attacks that your main damage output relies solely on nat-20's or cast spells that have no saves (or make saves impossible!) and bypass immunities. Supernatural Trait Removal (possibly x3, if you're up against an optimized Force Dragon or something that has Ability Ripped an Optimized Force Dragon) + AMF + Initiate of Mystra + Surge of Fortune + (Maximized) Supernatural Maddening Scream + (Ludicrously heavily Metamagicked with enormous caster level boosts) Wings of Flurry Spam = anything (besides a deity, Epic Golem/Demilich with the absolute version of Magic Immunity or an Epic Spellcaster who has specifically made himself immune to AMF) dies. Of course, that requires a Dweomerkeeper, but meh. To my knowledge, nothing else can defend against that (Contingencies don't really count, since that's just a straight up contest of "Who has more Crafted Contingent Celerities"), and the enemy is totally incapable of resisting. All of it can be done in one turn, too, if you abuse the action economy properly. And it's not even NI or unavoidable damage - just very large numbers following a careful deconstruction of defenses. Of course, then the Clone wakes up, or the actual Wizard whose Astral Projection you've just vanquished sends another, but hey, that's Epic for you.

[Xaroth]

My guy is up to ECL 60 or so, and we're talking about running around with EX Haste that includes a 50% miss chance, spamming Swift Disjunctions while in a Selective AMF, and self-buffed until his AC and saves are "No".

... and this is a Melee character.

Do it.

Put his saves down as "No".

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/31857576.jpg

[Xaroth]

Yeah, actually, forget what I said. I got to CR 40 and my write up of abilities started including terms like "Immune to (most) Damage" and "Arbitrarily High Attack Bonus" and "840 attacks per round (Which, with Vorpal Weapons and Persistent Dolorous Blow, means more or less an auto-kill on the entire party round 1)," all of which seem way more ludicrous than you'd intended. I'm not sure how to keep things within a reasonable level of power at CR 30+. And even writing this post, I've been considering how to expand that to 8400 attacks per round, so... yeah. I'm not the right person for this build.

Dude, go nuts and give rough explanations of how stuff works and I'll make adjustments where necessary.

[Xaroth]

Yeah, mine is (technically) melee, too. If I could find some more ways to get main hand attacks, PMWF would even better. The Persistent AMF that he can ignore and the immunity to dispelling and so on might be fun with a few more levels on him, but I don't intend to continue, given that I've overdone it already.

And really, AC and saves are sorta moot at this level, when you can either spam so many attacks that your main damage output relies solely on nat-20's or cast spells that have no saves (or make saves impossible!) and bypass immunities. Supernatural Trait Removal (possibly x3, if you're up against an optimized Force Dragon or something that has Ability Ripped an Optimized Force Dragon) + AMF + Initiate of Mystra + Surge of Fortune + (Maximized) Supernatural Maddening Scream + (Ludicrously heavily Metamagicked with enormous caster level boosts) Wings of Flurry Spam = anything (besides a deity, Epic Golem/Demilich with the absolute version of Magic Immunity or an Epic Spellcaster who has specifically made himself immune to AMF) dies. Of course, that requires a Dweomerkeeper, but meh. To my knowledge, nothing else can defend against that (Contingencies don't really count, since that's just a straight up contest of "Who has more Crafted Contingent Celerities"), and the enemy is totally incapable of resisting. All of it can be done in one turn, too, if you abuse the action economy properly. And it's not even NI or unavoidable damage - just very large numbers following a careful deconstruction of defenses. Of course, then the Clone wakes up, or the actual Wizard whose Astral Projection you've just vanquished sends another, but hey, that's Epic for you.

With my players they're anything but moot. I have an ECL 70 Caster as an NPC that is basically the Avatar but specializing in Water. She basically floats about in a ball of water and implodes people during battle.

I truly don't mind. If I need to make adjustments, I will.

[Promises Kept]

Alright, then. How should I calculate it's NPC WBL? The rules don't exactly go this high. At ECL (not CR) 35, I think the table for NPC's dictates 11000000 gp, but given the nonassociated class rules, it probably will end up having an ECL of 70+. We could call it 100000000, as that would give me decent flexibility. Mind if I make it so he is the only one capable of using any sort of magic in his boss room? Mythals could add a fun little element to this fight, and he's more than capable of casting it.

[Xaroth]

Alright, then. How should I calculate it's NPC WBL? The rules don't exactly go this high. At ECL (not CR) 35, I think the table for NPC's dictates 11000000 gp, but given the nonassociated class rules, it probably will end up having an ECL of 70+. We could call it 100000000, as that would give me decent flexibility. Mind if I make it so he is the only one capable of using any sort of magic in his boss room? Mythals could add a fun little element to this fight, and he's more than capable of casting it.

Ka-blam, it now has an anti-magic field with a diameter of boss room.

Be reasonable with your purchases, but otherwise just assume you have enough money for what you get. I don't really run WBL.

[PsyBomb]

I'm having so much fun with this...

Greater metamagic Rod of Quicken explicitly allows a Sorc to cast as Swift, so he will be Disjoining every round of combat that he does not otherwise use the action. Swiftblade explicitly allows you to case Haste as a FREE action. Also lets you pull off Time Stop shenanigans from any spell slot 6th or higher, and gives an initiative bonus equal to your casting stat...

Initiative so far is at +30. So far. This does not have Improved Initiative or its epic version. He will also be taking Celerity so that he WILL get that first cast off regardless, and can soak his Daze round as one of his potentially 7 (yes, 7) rounds under Time Stop. There is pretty much literally no way to prevent him from casually appearing next to their caster and dropping at least 2-3 massively boosted Full Attacks (Time Stands Still into Greater Celerity into Full Attack (or a different L9 maneuver) and free-action Time Stop for 1-2 rounds to soak the blowback). If desired, he can chain these actions together for about 5 minutes subjective time (~3.5 seconds to any observer or enemy). Plus Iron Heart Surge, because why not?

All of this while walking around inside of a selective AMF.

Add Shield, Luminous Armor, Enlarge Person (since the room is too small for Giant Growth), and various other standing buffs (cast Persist-Extended, spell slots have not been expended prior to the fight).

As offenses go, Kamina isn't nearly as dangerous as the guys before him. He is, however, nigh-invincible with the ability to Immediate Action interrupt about anything.

[Promises Kept]

Ka-blam, it now has an anti-magic field with a diameter of boss room.

Be reasonable with your purchases, but otherwise just assume you have enough money for what you get. I don't really run WBL.

Nah, a regular AMF can be circumvented too easily, and might interfere with his casting. I was going to have him cast a custom Mythal or three (the Epic Spell Seed from Lost Empires of Faerun) that Aroint all schools of magic, Wish, and Limited Wish, along with a Prevalent AMF to deal with items. All Keyed to affect everyone other than him, of course. I'll leave it there, because if I kept upgrading the Mythal, the end result would probably be "No Save, just Die," immediately upon entering the room.

And I'll keep the Epic Spells under DC 200 (unmitigated) to give the players a chance.


I'm having so much fun with this...

Greater metamagic Rod of Quicken explicitly allows a Sorc to cast as Swift, so he will be Disjoining every round of combat that he does not otherwise use the action. Swiftblade explicitly allows you to case Haste as a FREE action. Also lets you pull off Time Stop shenanigans from any spell slot 6th or higher, and gives an initiative bonus equal to your casting stat...

Initiative so far is at +30. So far. This does not have Improved Initiative or its epic version. He will also be taking Celerity so that he WILL get that first cast off regardless, and can soak his Daze round as one of his potentially 7 (yes, 7) rounds under Time Stop. There is pretty much literally no way to prevent him from casually appearing next to their caster and dropping at least 2-3 massively boosted Full Attacks (Time Stands Still into Greater Celerity into Full Attack (or a different L9 maneuver) and free-action Time Stop for 1-2 rounds to soak the blowback). If desired, he can chain these actions together for about 5 minutes subjective time (~3.5 seconds to any observer or enemy). Plus Iron Heart Surge, because why not?

All of this while walking around inside of a selective AMF.

Add Shield, Luminous Armor, Enlarge Person (since the room is too small for Giant Growth), and various other standing buffs (cast Persist-Extended, spell slots have not been expended prior to the fight).

As offenses go, Kamina isn't nearly as dangerous as the guys before him. He is, however, nigh-invincible with the ability to Immediate Action interrupt about anything.

But don't you only have one immediate action per turn? That's something of a weakness as a boss monster.

[Xaroth]

Nah, a regular AMF can be circumvented too easily, and might interfere with his casting. I was going to have him cast a custom Mythal (the Epic Spell Seed from Lost Empires of Faerun) that Aroints all schools of magic, Wish, and Limited Wish, along with a Prevalent AMF to deal with items. All Keyed to affect everyone other than him, of course. I'll leave it there, because if I kept upgrading the Mythal, the end result would probably be "No Save, just Die," immediately upon entering the room.

And I'll keep the Epic Spells under DC 200 (unmitigated) to give the players a chance.

Beautiful.

[PsyBomb]

But don't you only have one immediate action per turn? That's something of a weakness as a boss monster.

He can reset it via a Free-action Time Stop (1-round takes a 6 slot), and his Haste acts like 3.0 style in that it gives him a bonus Standard or Move, in addition to all other bonuses.

Seriously, Swiftblade is only remotely balanced in regular builds by costing you caster levels and preventing stacking up other abilities. In Gestalt or 30+ Epic, it is one of the most abusive things in the game, easily stronger than any Epic option you have other than the Epic Spellcasting feat.

[Promises Kept]

He can reset it via a Free-action Time Stop (1-round takes a 6 slot), and his Haste acts like 3.0 style in that it gives him a bonus Standard or Move, in addition to all other bonuses.

Seriously, Swiftblade is only remotely balanced in regular builds by costing you caster levels and preventing stacking up other abilities. In Gestalt or 30+ Epic, it is one of the most abusive things in the game, easily stronger than any Epic option you have other than the Epic Spellcasting feat.

The issue here is that you can't use that free-action Time Stop when you use your Celerity - Free actions can't generally be taken out of turn, and Celerity doesn't make it your turn, just lets you use 1 standard action. That means you only get one interrupt per actual round, which leaves some vulnerable time.

EDIT: And, personally, I prefer Dweomerkeeper, Multispell, and Improved Metamagic in Epic. Experience-free Wishes are incredibly powerful things, and the other two allow for shattering the Action economy even harder.

[Xaroth]

The issue here is that you can't use that free-action Time Stop when you use your Celerity - Free actions can't generally be taken out of turn, and Celerity doesn't make it your turn, just lets you use 1 standard action. That means you only get one interrupt per actual round, which leaves some vulnerable time.

EDIT: And, personally, I prefer Dweomerkeeper, Multispell, and Improved Metamagic in Epic. Experience-free Wishes are incredibly powerful things, and the other two allow for shattering the Action economy even harder.

Goddamn, I've been so busy with IRL stuff lately that I've not been able to do any work on the CK aside from deciding he's going to have ranks in Warblade focusing on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart primarily, he has a +29 to concentration at 19HD which is an ECL I don't even know right now (9?) so advancing him two HD and giving 20 in Warblade and 10 in a ToB Prestige class is sounding good, or 9 in a ToB Prestige class and one in Battle Dancer for the unarmored CHA bonus to AC. the 29 ToB class levels would be associated because look at the damn thing, but Battle Dancer wouldn't so that'd give a non-associated class level. I'm still really busy so if anybody has any contributions as to what I could do for that non-associated class level (preferrably a first level dip that would be helpful) it'd be greatly appreciated. Also if anybody decides they want to work on something that's on the list, chances are I won't see your resposne for a while so just go nuts with it and do whatever, I welcome all help and truly don't mind what you do with the boss/sub-boss as long as you don't go Pun-pun (or anything similar) on its ass.

Also if anyone sees something that might be neat for the N/A Optional Boss slots (the CR for it would just be +5 of the boss for the respective dungeon) then you're welcome to contribute and work on one to submit here for viewing.

[Xaroth]

So I've lost access to all of my D&D stuff.

All of it.

[Xaroth]

Would someone be willing to tackle the Sephiroth CR ~90 boss? It doesn't need to be very accurate to Sephiroth, but making it OP as hell is always nice.

I'm thinking Half-Giant with Monkey Grip/Wield Oversized Weapon and a Large/Huge Katana (Masterwork Bastard Sword).

Probably an aberration feat to give him the one wing that doesn't grant flight but does grant an AC bonus.

EDIT: Half-Giant WITHOUT the psionic things.

[Xaroth]

And I'm finally back to getting my stuff sorted.