half black dragon human heritage necropolitan

[clericgirl]

Question on these templates. If I take the half dragon template and the human heritage feat(LA buyout is being allowed). At third level I'm going to take the necropolitan template. Will my type change to undead or remain human due to the feat. I've seen both arguments so I'm hoping to get some help. My dm seems to think the necro template will override the feat and turn me to undead type. I think the feat trumps the undead type from necro. SO I believe I'll get the benefits from both templates and remain human, thus preventing me from being able to be turned/rebuked. So I'm hoping to get some clarification. The DM will listen if I present a good case.

So would really like some help on this.

[The Grue]

I believe the template overrides the feat if you acquire the feat first.

The feat changes your type to Humanoid (Human subtype) if it isn't already. Necropolitan then changes your type to Undead. Since type change is a one-time effect, this is basic order of operations.

You'd keep the 4 skill points though.

[Kuulvheysoon]

According to the Character Creation guidelines, Race is selected before feats. So after applying the template, you'd be a Dragon. After you take the feat, your type would change to Humanoid [human]. After the Ritual of Crucimigration, your type would become Undead [augmented humanoid, human]

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You are treated as a humanoid with the human
subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects. If you
are not a humanoid, your type changes to humanoid
and you gain the human subtype. If you are already a
humanoid, you gain the human subtype. In either case,
you retain any other subtypes you had (such as orc
or extraplanar), and you retain any traits common
to all creatures of your original type (such as
darkvision).

If you are not a humanoid upon gaining Human Heritage, then your type changes to humanoid and you gain the human subtype.

Gaining the Necropolitan template after Human Heritage will switch your creature type to undead, and you'll have the [augmented humanoid, human] subtypes.

You will still be treated as a humanoid with the human subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects, including effects which an undead creature would normally be immune to. You're still healed by positive energy and harmed by negative energy. You're still susceptible to mind-affecting effects, energy drain, poison, disease, critical hits, etc. as though you were a humanoid. You still have no Con score because the Necropolitan template takes it away; having or lacking an ability score is not an effect and is not overridden by the feat. You would also be considered a humanoid for the effects of a Desecrate spell, the Corpsecrafter line of feats, etc., so you would gain no benefit from those. You're treated as a humanoid with regards to turning and rebuking undead, spells which detect, control, and ward against undead, etc.

Basically you'll have the undead creature type in name only apart from the d12 HD and Con as a nonability. For all other purposes you're treated as a humanoid with the human subtype, none of the benefits of the undead type will be applicable to any effects used against you. You'll still never die of old age, but you'll still suffer the normal effects of aging that a typical human would.

[clericgirl]

I believe the template overrides the feat if you acquire the feat first.

The feat changes your type to Humanoid (Human subtype) if it isn't already. Necropolitan then changes your type to Undead. Since type change is a one-time effect, this is basic order of operations.

You'd keep the 4 skill points though.

Well the half dragon changes your type to dragon so you'd have to take the human heritage feat to qualify for the necropolitan. Since you lose a level when you go necro I'm goign to wait until I ding lv 3 so it won't kill me. Only way I know to do it.

[Doc_Maynot]

Actually, race is determined (and thus applied) before the feat is applied. Due to the nature of Necropolitan it is supposed to be acquired after play has begun and the character is at least level 3, after which the character loses one level and 1000 XP.
The feat beats the Half-Dragon template, but the Necropolitan template would then change it again.

[clericgirl]

If you are not a humanoid upon gaining Human Heritage, then your type changes to humanoid and you gain the human subtype.

Gaining the Necropolitan template after Human Heritage will switch your creature type to undead, and you'll have the [augmented humanoid, human] subtypes.

You will still be treated as a humanoid with the human subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects, including effects which an undead creature would normally be immune to. You're still healed by positive energy and harmed by negative energy. You're still susceptible to mind-affecting effects, energy drain, poison, disease, critical hits, etc. as though you were a humanoid. You still have no Con score because the Necropolitan template takes it away; having or lacking an ability score is not an effect and is not overridden by the feat. You would also be considered a humanoid for the effects of a Desecrate spell, the Corpsecrafter line of feats, etc., so you would gain no benefit from those. You're treated as a humanoid with regards to turning and rebuking undead, spells which detect, control, and ward against undead, etc.

Basically you'll have the undead creature type in name only apart from the d12 HD and Con as a nonability. For all other purposes you're treated as a humanoid with the human subtype, none of the benefits of the undead type will be applicable to any effects used against you. You'll still never die of old age, but you'll still suffer the normal effects of aging that a typical human would.

so the necro would be a waste then... I'm better of with just half black dragon then.

[clericgirl]

Actually, race is determined (and thus applied) before the feat is applied. Due to the nature of Necropolitan it is supposed to be acquired after play has begun and the character is at least level 3, after which the character loses one level and 1000 XP.
The feat beats the Half-Dragon template, but the Necropolitan template would then change it again.

So then I would be undead? would I keep the benefits of the half dragon and such?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

so the necro would be a waste then... I'm better of with just half black dragon then.

If you want to push the matter that the feat will override the template's type, then yes, it's pointless. However, if your DM is of the opinion that adding necropolitan after taking the feat will override the feat, then you can still be turned/rebuked (say the one who made you had Corpsecrafter and Bolster Resistance at the very least) but you would still benefit from being undead as well.

[clericgirl]

If you want to push the matter that the feat will override the template's type, then yes, it's pointless. However, if your DM is of the opinion that adding necropolitan after taking the feat will override the feat, then you can still be turned/rebuked (say the one who made you had Corpsecrafter and Bolster Resistance at the very least) but you would still benefit from being undead as well.

I dind't think that the corpse crafting feats + desecration would work for PC's. I guess you can make an argument that since a dread necromancer "made me during a ritual then I would get those bonuses, however; I thought I saw it argued that you couldn't do that.

Now what about spellstiched? Could I apply that?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I dind't think that the corpse crafting feats + desecration would work for PC's. I guess you can make an argument that since a dread necromancer "made me during a ritual then I would get those bonuses, however; I thought I saw it argued that you couldn't do that.

Now what about spellstiched? Could I apply that?

Spellstitched costs a lot of XP, and the standard rate for NPC XP costs is x5 gp. So for example, Spellstitching a Wis 14 undead costs 1,000 gp and 7,000 xp, or 36,000 gp to have an NPC do it.

Undead creation works the same way regardless of whether it's an opponent, NPC, or PC. Someone had to make you an undead creature, so say that someone was a Dread Necromancer 8+ with all the Corpsecrafter line of feats and in the area of a Fell Energy Desecrate spell with an evil altar nearby.

[clericgirl]

Spellstitched costs a lot of XP, and the standard rate for NPC XP costs is x5 gp. So for example, Spellstitching a Wis 14 undead costs 1,000 gp and 7,000 xp, or 36,000 gp to have an NPC do it.

Undead creation works the same way regardless of whether it's an opponent, NPC, or PC. Someone had to make you an undead creature, so say that someone was a Dread Necromancer 8+ with all the Corpsecrafter line of feats and in the area of a Fell Energy Desecrate spell with an evil altar nearby.

well the necromancer that would have made me was a dread necro, who will happen to be the BBEG. Ironic no? the theory is he, after making me was weakened some how allowing me to "break" free from his grasp. I would think he would have pumped with everything he's got.

Edit:
that's why I wanted to make sure I could be spell stitched.

[adriana]

My question is what about the dragons breath dc. It's based on 10 +1/2 con mod. Since the con is 0 do you use your CHA? or are you screwed on even ****tier dc save with out a con mod?

so with out a con and no other bonus the DC would be like 11. which is worthless.


EDIT:
had to minus the racial hd since humans don't get bonus hd. lol

[shadowseve]

My question is what about the dragons breath dc. It's based on 10 + 1/2 half dragons bonus HD +1/2 con mod. Since the con is 0 do you use your CHA? or are you screwed on even ****tier dc save with out a con mod?

so with out a con and no other bonus the DC would be like 11. which is worthless.

Looking at all the undead dragons in the draconomicon the DC is charisma based so I think any reasonable dm would allow the same since you are technically undead.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

My question is what about the dragons breath dc. It's based on 10 +1/2 con mod. Since the con is 0 do you use your CHA? or are you screwed on even ****tier dc save with out a con mod?

so with out a con and no other bonus the DC would be like 11. which is worthless.


EDIT:
had to minus the racial hd since humans don't get bonus hd. lol

If you lose your Con score, your Con-based special attacks are either lost (such as poison) or switch to using Cha instead. An undead creature doesn't have a Con modifier of zero, it has no Con modifier at all, so you have to use a different modifier.