Nerfing spellcasters and making monks and fighters viable.

[maniacalmojo]

As the title suggest. How would you go about making lower tears viable in a group while spellcasters are not as powerful?

I already thought that there should be no knock spell (or any spell that would replace a class ability) Teleportation should be limited. No "cheating death" Things.

Monks getting combat styles. I thought of making it so monks at level 5 or so could "branch out" Into one of three types. Mind, Body and spirit. Mind doing more counters with bonus to dodge and the ability to cause stun or similar abilities. Body gaining bonus hit points per level plus damage resistance and natural armor, would gain bonus to resist knock down and trips ect. Spirit is able to go into a rage of sorts and having a high bonus to damage with same limitations of barbarian rage.

Just thoughts on those two classes specifically. I would love any input this was spur of the moment ideas.

[Blackhawk748]

Oh hear we go again :smalltongue:

Ok im gonna give this the GitP cliff notes. Have caster us Bard Progression with +2 spells per spell level (knock is totally fine btw most people dont even bother taking it)

If you wanna fix the Monk look at the Swordsage, its a pretty good base to work off of, or at one of the many homebrew fixes we have on here. Im sure one will stand out to you as freakin sweet.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ah, this old question. The answer is:

Ban or nerf the most broken spells-- polymorph, celerity, planar ally... anything that breaks the action economy or provides disproportionate versatility.
Replace all T1 or T2 casters with thematic fixed-list casters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317861-Fixed-List-Caster-Project-%283-5%29&p=16545265#post16545265), in the vein of the dread necromancer.
Replace mundane classes with more-versatile, less mundane versions, in the vein of the tome of battle.
Make sure everyone in the group optimizes to approximately the same level.

But, of course, that's a lot of work. There's no simple answer. You really do have to rewrite almost every class in the game. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329161-Giants-and-Graveyards-Grod-s-collected-3-5-revisions)

[Gildedragon]

My idea for a fix:
Give monks access to a list of moves, every odd level (except 19) they get access to a new tier of moves. These moves are varied in capacities, boosting the monk's abilities in some way, or damaging their opponents. For example a third level monk could transform themselves into another being with similar base traits like: HD, Type, BAB, Saves, and (roughly) Size (maybe allow to grow or shrink one?); but they can gain the special abilities of their new body. This would last roughly 10 min per level. Or at 5th a monk could walk on air by spending one of their ki slots. or at level 9 they could meditate and thus talk with some sort of spirit...

Point is nerfing wizards would be to remove the versatility they have, and this is... complicated without turning them into just another fighter or a burden during combat. (a wizard with just utility spells is no good during a fight, and a pure blaster is really little more than a fighter with a diff weapon)

edit:
I don't wanna say that it is impossible. But fixes will probably not be universal. Best to talk with players about what they want to do with their characters, and gently nudge them that way. Maybe allow mundanes a couple free of LA templates, or give them more versatile magic items (where the spellcasters get less useful ones) cheapen the cost of grafts and the like...

[Phelix-Mu]

Yes, to chime in, this spur of the moment thought by the OP is not at all original. Everyone is pretty much just a few campaigns from at least beginning to see that casters just are more flexible and viable in the long-haul than endless rolling of full attacks and dealing of massive hp in damage. Or the long list of incongruous abilities of the monk.

So, I would advise some fixes for monk on this site. T.G. Oskar and Xaotiq1 both have very interesting takes on the issue, linked in my extended signature. There are about umpteen million other fixes or full overhauls of the concepts, as well as homebrew that attempts to make martial and mundane characters less two-dimensional. If you can dig ToB, I'd look at some of the homebrew disciplines on this site, several of which are particularly inspired.

As for the spells, I advise much of what is mentioned above. Certain spells are standouts in making Tier 1's into campaign-solvers. Ice assassin, polymorph-line, and consequence-free/unstoppable teleporting are all issues, as are sources of long-term minionmancy (planar ally/binding lines are quite abusable). Animating the dead is slightly less of an issue, but can also be problematic with resourceful and innovative players. Really, unless you are going to go about most of the spell lists with a serious bit of rewriting, you should just deal with issues as they crop up, making sure players know that you aren't going to let them fix reality with crazy spell exploits.

[Gildedragon]

A thought occurred to me:

You could make certain of the more powerful spells be 'class features' that is to say, they can't be learned from outside sources, and you can pick only one at a given level.

Say: you can pick Wish OR Gate* OR Ice Assassin OR Genesis.

*note on Gate: the "Controlled creature" commanding should probably always require fair payment (expedite service giving a +2 to the bargain) so as to cut down in the Gating of Solars for wishes

[Phelix-Mu]

*note on Gate: the "Controlled creature" commanding should probably always require fair payment (expedite service giving a +2 to the bargain) so as to cut down in the Gating of Solars for wishes

That's hardly the worst or most obvious abuse of gate.

1.) Wizard X has a problem with BBEG A.

2.) Wizard X travels to Plane Z, not the home plane of BBEG A.

3.) Wizard X gates BBEG A to Plane Z.

4.) Wizard X commands BBEG A to perform [insert desired flavor of suicidal series of actions, including but not limited to failing saves, dropping gear, divulging plans, drinking poison, etc, etc], no save or immunity to resist the command.

5.) DM B for Wizard X goes fishing for new plot line inspiration on GitP, since Wizard X just fixed that campaign arc in two spells.

[Jeff the Green]

Two things I think work well enough for your average game:

Replace Fighter, Monk, and to a lesser degree of necessity, Paladin, with Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader. Other tier-5 classes can be similarly replaced with ToB (or in Soulknife's case, Psychic Warrior). Tier 4 can either get the same treatment or get small targeted bonuses such as a limited selection of maneuvers (Ranger, Rogue, Scout, Marshal, Barbarian; there are quite a few good homebrew disciplines out there for these) or a better spell list or progression (Hexblade, Warmage, Spellthief).
Ask tier 1-2 players to play God, not Batman, or to take PrCs/dips that enhance one aspect at the expense of all others (and not just as an opportunity cost). God casters are very party-friendly since they don't trivialize encounters or beat them on their own like Batman can, they make their less magically gifted allies better able to handle encounters. For example, give the face guidance of the avatar; don't cast charm person. Examples of the latter might be Ordained Champion, Swiftblade, or a theurge class.


These obviously don't completely fix the problem. Full, non-fixed list casters are still more powerful than anyone else, but it's less noticeable and should reduce likelihood of anyone feeling left out or overshadowed, which is the real reason were concerned with balance. (Another notable problem is that this won't work well for new players, since ToB is harder to learn than Barbarian, if easier to make good, and it does take more skill to make a God Wizard than, say, a summoner.

[Gildedragon]

Oh another possible fix:
allow "personal" spells to be cast as "touch"
this encourages the use of some of the self-buffs as party-buffs

[Blackhawk748]

Grod, just checked out your Giants and Graveyards, and by Obad Hai it is wonderful, so im gonna say that that is probably the best rebalance i have ever seen.

[Jeff the Green]

Oh another possible fix:
allow "personal" spells to be cast as "touch"
this encourages the use of some of the self-buffs as party-buffs

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!

My policy is generally that if a player wants to use a personal spell as touch to ask me and I'll probably say yes. I can't think of any spells off the top of my head for which this might be problematic (though Tenser's transformation and it's ilk might be).

[Gildedragon]

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!

My policy is generally that if a player wants to use a personal spell as touch to ask me and I'll probably say yes. I can't think of any spells off the top of my head for which this might be problematic (though Tenser's transformation and it's ilk might be).

I guess it could be used to turn an enemy wizard into a BSF... which... yeah it is hilarious and great (and best of all, can be done to the party spellcaster by the enemy wizard's familiar)

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, doesn't this just increase the likelihood that every wizard/cleric/druid is accompanied by a bevy of minions that are buffed to the gills? I mean, I'm all for buffing party members, but why do that when we've already got all these super-cool minions?

[Gildedragon]

Well, doesn't this just increase the likelihood that every wizard/cleric/druid is accompanied by a bevy of minions that are buffed to the gills? I mean, I'm all for buffing party members, but why do that when we've already got all these super-cool minions?

They are called "fellow party mates" or "fellow PCs" man, it is a bit gauche and non-pc (other kind of PC) to call them minions... no matter how true it is
Minionmancy is a whoooole problem into itself; and prolly ought be scrapped or used only for big scale battles (make getting minions a significant time investment that vanishes after a while... maybe retaining minions is a 'concentration' type thing)

[Phelix-Mu]

Minionmancy is a whoooole problem into itself; and prolly ought be scrapped or used only for big scale battles (make getting minions a significant time investment that vanishes after a while... maybe retaining minions is a 'concentration' type thing)

Agreed, I am fine with this cooperation enhancing tactic as long as we have already established that unlimited planar binding has to be a thing of the past (or somebody needs to give low tiers one crazy-big boost to match minionmancy), along with most of the other insanely abusable, open-ended contract-type things.

[Snowbluff]

Can I just say I don't WANT Monks to be a thing? How come all of the other classes have to be dragged down for their benefit? We have Swordsages, and Monks (in all of their filth) already have combat styles.

Tier 3 master Tier! JefftheGreen has the right idea!

[Vizzerdrix]

My preferred fix: Ban PHB and EPH. Use the Generic caster from UE at half casting (like a bard) for casters but limit them to only one spell list and a D6+ a few extra skill points. Apply lots of Bo9s.

[Flickerdart]

My preferred fix: Ban PHB and EPH. Use the Generic caster from UE at half casting (like a bard) for casters but limit them to only one spell list and a D6+ a few extra skill points. Apply lots of Bo9s.
Given that the standard bard is a T3 with all that and a whole list of solid class features, I think you might be going a little too far. It can generally be assumed that people who pick casters want to cast spells, and bard casting doesn't give you nearly enough per-day uses of level-appropriate spells to make that a sensible problem-solving tool, especially when you're not using the bard's special snowflake accelerated list.

[Gemini476]

Warblade/Warmage/Shugenja/Factotum only, no OP spells, Final Destination.

Or use Tome of Battle + Expanded Psionics Handbook as your new Core. That could also work.

Or just ban all tiers except 3-4. That could also work.

[Angelalex242]

I had a crazy idea:

You can have an ECL Race equal to your Tier-1 without receiving an ECL penalty.

A wizard must be a human.

But the sorcerer can be an aasimar and not take an ECL penalty.

The bard can be a drow without penalty (ECL 2...)

In like fashion, the Barbarian can be a Half Dragon (ECL 3)

And the Paladin is overjoyed to be Half Celestial (ECL 4)

If you're crazy enough to be a Samurai, you can have an ECL 5 race and I'll throw in natural 18s in all stats for free.

[Ansem]

{{scrubbed}}

[.Zero]

Limit full casters to 3rd level spells in no more than two schools of magic, delaying new spell level access by 3 levels. Give monk full bab and let him change his combat styles like a ToB class changes a stance. Let the monk benefit from combat styles-gained feats for qualifications purposes. Give fighter a bonus feat each level or let him choose at least two ACF and let him benefit from those in conjunction with bonus feats.

Or simply don't play monks, fighters and paladins in a group of full casters.

Or simply play another game.

[Gemini476]

{{scrubbed}}.

The problem doesn't lie purely in combat - it's even more pronounced out of combat, actually. Some people actually like roleplaying, and that's hard to do when your Fighter has to choose between being good at fighting or being halfway decent at anything else while the Wizard can choose C) all of the above.

Tier 1-2 also have the problem where they can completely wreck a campaign with a few well-chosen spells, like Scry & Die or casting Gate to summon the BBEG or absolutely anything to do with Save-or-Die spells - for a Fighter to instantly kill someone, he has three options: do damage equal to their HP+10, have a Vorpal sword (5% chance), or do over 50 damage to force a DC 15 Fort save or die. For a Wizard, they can just cast a DC 10+spell level+Int [insert whatever save is your weakest] save-or-die. Or save-or-lose.

Tier 5-6 have the opposite problem, where they simply fall behind in the math for whatever reason and can't even stay relevant in their specialization. And they need to be specialized, because the system punishes branching out for non-casters. How many useful combat styles can a Fighter squeeze out of 18 feats, for instance? How does he handle it when he can't reach the enemy for some reason, or is out of combat and only has 2+Int skill points?
Still, the Fighter is at least better than the Samurai. It's a Fighter who is locked into a mediocre combat style without any of the redeeming tricks as well as being specialized in intimidating creatures with less hit dice than he has, which is... not that great without major optimization.

Dipping classes can make them better, obviously, and prestige classes can lift something mediocre out of the dirt and give it a new life. Some classes are just worse than others, though.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Grod, just checked out your Giants and Graveyards, and by Obad Hai it is wonderful, so im gonna say that that is probably the best rebalance i have ever seen.
:smallredface:

[Komatik]

:smallredface:

It contains too little Shillelagh and too much balanced shapeshifting to be the best ;)

I don't know why but the template-style shapeshifting, while balanced, just doesn't sit well with me. It's a good feel for "aspect of a thing" type things but it just feels wrong for complete shapeshifting. Need to read it more closely though.