Grey Elf

[m149307]

Ok, I have heard of the Grey Elf and wanted to take it for my wizard... but I don't know which book it is in in case the DM asks. Can you guys help me out?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The core Monster Manual, page 104, and note that the traits listed are in addition to all the normal high elf traits, they don't replace anything.

They're also in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf)

[geekintheground]

its in the monster manual

[m149307]

Ok, and I am able to use it for a PC wizard right?

[Sir Chuckles]

Ok, and I am able to use it for a PC wizard right?

No reason you can't, unless your DM says you can't.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ok, and I am able to use it for a PC wizard right?

Nothing says you can't. The only reason a given creature from any book, anywhere, would not be usable as a PC race would be if it has a "Level Adjustment: —" entry, or if a given creature's total effective character level (ECL, the total of its racial hit dice, level adjustment, and class levels combined) is higher than the current party level.

[m149307]

Ok, (and this might be going slightly off topic) is it worth taking for wizard, or is there a better race out there?

[Inevitability]

You gain intelligence (great) and dexterity (less great, but still useful)
You lose strength (no problem) and constitution (big, big problem!)

So if you go undead later on, I think you should take it. Elven wizards have quite some support for them.

If you don't, just be a human/strongheart halfling. An extra feat is more important than +1 to save DC's and +1 to AC.

[Phelix-Mu]

There are a number of lesser planetouched that are just as good as Grey Elf, and allow for slightly more unique-flavor, as the grey elf necropolitan wizard with FMI is really surprisingly common.

[m149307]

Lesser planar like what?

[Phelix-Mu]

Lesser planar like what?

Hmm. I like lesser whispling or lesser air genasi if you are looking to improve Intelligence, IIRC. There are a great number of others.

DETAILS:

"Lesser" is an option that removes the +1 LA from various races by trading off a few traits/qualities that have fairly minor impact on the game. Generally, many of these races maintain the lion's share of their goodies when turned into the "lesser" version of whatever it originally was.

Genasi are mentioned is several places, perhaps most coherently in Monsters of Faerun. But I'd probably just search the web, as, for some reason, the genasi entries in several books are very hard to use for character creation (like not all the info that is supposed to be there is there, was errata'd or updated for 3.5, etc).

Wisplings are from Fiend Folio, as I recall.

[m149307]

What about lesser tiefling? Stats:
Human (Planetouched): As Aasimar
- +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha
- 60' DV
- +2 Bluff & Hide
- Cold, Electricity, Fire resistances 5

[Gildedragon]

Ooof: there are oodles

There is the Lesser (Races of Faerun) Axani (Dr 297) for boost to int and wis
and Cansin (Dr 297) for cha and int and smoke para-genasi (int dex and penalty to cha)

The beguiler (Shining South) for oodles of dex, cuteness, and a boost to int

the alethian dwarf (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20030926a)

Elves are good if you wanna go generalist:
in which case (if you wanna be diff) there are lower LA drow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) the class there detailed is optional

[m149307]

Ok, so how would a lesser axani work? (I don't know what Dr 297, so I cna't look)

[torrasque666]

(Dr 297) means Dragon Magazine, issue 297.

[Phelix-Mu]

It's Dragon Magazine #297. Gonna be hard to secure a hardcopy; I imagine that backcopies might be available by order from Paizo (or not...that's likely not a profitable practice for them to engage in).

I believe if you search for "guide" or "handbook" and "planetouched," that you can come up with details. Or maybe "axani" and "planetouched."

[Gildedragon]

Dragon magazine 297

you'd be a humanoid (planetouched) with a couple SLAs, Lawful-outsider heritage, and +2 to int and wis with an LA of 0. as opposed to being an LA +1 outsider (native, planetouched) (with all the bonuses that comes along with) with a couple SLAs, lawful-outsider heritage, and a +2 to int and wis

[Rebel7284]

Make sure to ask your DM before combining a paragraph from the back of some Faerun book with a race from a magazine. Some may consider this cheesy. :smallsmile:

Elf Wizards are fine. I prefer Fire Elf from Unearthed Arcana over Grey Elf, they take a penalty of charisma instead of strength, but both work.

For an elf, you need to have at least a 16 to put into constitution to make sure you don't die to a stray arrow.

Also, there are delicious Elven Generalist levels in races of the wild.

Tieflings are fine too. Not having the penalty to CON is nice.

[Gildedragon]

Note that there are 2 ways to mitigate the Elven Constitution penalty:
The first is the (Dragon 306) arctic template (la 0) that boosts Constitution at the expense of Charisma (if you want charisma, then there is also the Magic-Blooded (also LA 0 and same magazine) template that boosts Cha at the expense of Wis)

The other is for Good-aligned elves only: Dragonborn of Bahamut (Races of Dragon) where you trade Dex for Con (and wings, a breath weapon, or cool senses)

[Inevitability]

Do dragonborn grey elves still count as elves? Because that seems like a pretty neat race for wizards.

[Gildedragon]

RoTD, PG 8:
For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race.

A Dragonborn Magic-Blooded* Arctic** Grey Elf has the following stat bonuses

-2 str +2 con +2 int -2 wis

you do not have SLAs or Elven Weapon Proficiencies (unless those are a byproduct of the elf subtype) but you are a wizard: you have spells and don't need weapons

*Sans Magic Blooded:
-2 str +2 con +2 int -2 cha

**Sans Arctic & Magic Blooded
-2 str +2 int

[HunterOfJello]

Ok, (and this might be going slightly off topic) is it worth taking for wizard, or is there a better race out there?

There's almost always a better race out there. Whether your DM will allow it and what level of optimization the rest of your party is at is the real question.

In the core books, the Grey Elf is likely the best wizard race. Gnomes are very nice with their small size and +1 DC to illusions, but the Grey Elf's +2 Intelligence means that they have +1 DC to all spell schools, bonus spells known, higher skill checks, and more. Losing CON is bad, but gaining free ranged weapon proficiencies is very nice for low levels.

[Sian]

I have a certain love for Dwarven Wizards ... +con (Great) -Cha (utterly unimportant) and a few nice things such as +saves against spells (very good in wizard duels and the like) ... Access to Runesmith (Races of Stone) for wearing heavy armor with no Arcane Check Penalty (or rather, making so you don't have to take such a check) is only cherries on top.

[Chronos]

It's also worth noting that elven wizards (including grey elves) have a number of good options specifically for them, such as the awesome Elf Generalist substitution levels. If you're going to be an elf anyway, there's no reason not to be a grey elf instead of a standard one.

[Eldariel]

I mean, Gray Elf isn't bad. You get a dump stat penalty, two key stat bonuses (Dex for Initiative is often more important than Con for HP) and Cha remains untouched (it's nice for certain spells, such as Shapechange, Planar Binding and Charms). Con penalty sucks immensely but ultimately there are some ways to circumvent it (Undeath & Faerie Mysteries Initiate as the big ones) and if you can afford to buy a 14 in Con in spite of the penalty, you're kinda okay anyways. 12 is pushing it but doable, and then higher up it doesn't really matter all that much if you're using spells to protect yourself anyways.

Furthermore, Elves get:
- Two good Wizard variants: Generalist for the extra slot & the Familiar bonus doubling
- Martial weapon proficiencies: Nice for some PRC entry, such as Swiftblade or Abjurant Champion, though Gray Elf's Strength-penalty is far from ideal there. Completely broken with Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle to replace them with any feats.
- 30' move speed (really key early on and most of the other Wizard-races are looking at 20')
- Longbows for early game non-action (though under 10 Str usually leaves you better off with a Crossbow)
- Perception bonuses for low level game.
- Sleep-immunity again for low level games.

Overall, Elves get a bundle of utility for the first few levels, and then PRC entry/Wizard variants that remain useful later on alongside the stupid funkiness with DCFS.

[Gemini476]

You gain intelligence (great) and dexterity (less great, but still useful)
You lose strength (no problem) and constitution (big, big problem!)

So if you go undead later on, I think you should take it. Elven wizards have quite some support for them.

If you don't, just be a human/strongheart halfling. An extra feat is more important than +1 to save DC's and +1 to AC.

While it's true that Human/Strongheart Halfling are probably better choices, especially the latter because of its size, remember that getting Int 20 means getting an extra first-level spell. That can make the difference between life and death at low levels.


Also, Monster Manual II has the Zenythri. You can make them Lesser for LA+0 if that's allowed.
They get Str +2, Dex +2, Wis +2 and Cha -2, and also get True Strike 1/day and Electricity/Fire/Sonic resistance 5. And a +2 racial bonus on Balance and Survival.
They're not necessarily the best for Wizards in particular, but they have some very tasty traits. Especially the resistances, which among other things make you immune to lava and generally a pain for low-level blasters.

[Inevitability]

While it's true that Human/Strongheart Halfling are probably better choices, especially the latter because of its size, remember that getting Int 20 means getting an extra first-level spell. That can make the difference between life and death at low levels.


That requires you to have a pre-racial 18 though, which is not very easy to get. Either you got lucky when rolling stats, or you min-maxed your intelligence and got barely any points to put somewhere else left.

[Eldariel]

That requires you to have a pre-racial 18 though, which is not very easy to get. Either you got lucky when rolling stats, or you min-maxed your intelligence and got barely any points to put somewhere else left.

Well, 25pb affords you 17 Int quite easily and 18 Int feasibly. It does require sacrificing everything but the essential stats, granted, but it can be done (the array is 8/14/11/18/8/8). But yeah, if possible, I definitely want 18 Int on my low level Wizards. The extra spell slot from 20 Int combined with Specialist/Elf Generalist slot gives you a total of 4 slots on 1st level which is more than enough to carry you through most days as long as you don't go stunning every single Goblin you encounter (those you just shoot). It's just plain boring to play a 2e style Wizard who can cast 1 spell each day and then go back to doing nothing. 3e Wizards with cantrips and bonus spells are much more rewarding to play on low levels, though the 2nd slot is really useful and kinda expensive to get. Ah well, c'est la vie.

[Gemini476]

That requires you to have a pre-racial 18 though, which is not very easy to get. Either you got lucky when rolling stats, or you min-maxed your intelligence and got barely any points to put somewhere else left.

Even at 25 point buy you have 9 points to spend on other stats. Like Dex and Con.
Since you are already at +2 Int -2 Str +2 Dex -2 Con, you can put in six points in Con, two in Dex and one in Wis and end up with the following array:
20, 12, 12, 9, 8, 6

That isn't so horrible.

Also, there's a 10.6% chance of you getting at least one 18 when rolling. So that's a thing.

Also also, you choose race and class after getting your stat array. If you don't have an 18, go human. If you do (or only have a 13 and want to play a Wizard), go Grey Elf.