Concerning Ur-Priest

[Kazudo]

The build in question is the following:

Warlock 3/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/Enlightened Spirit 1.

Now then. The big bottleneck in the build really is the buildup to Ur-Priest. Is there any way that a Warlock build through strategic dips or feats could possibly get into Ur-Priest before 6th level?

EDIT: Alternatively, would there be a way to get into Eldritch Disciple with only Ur-Priest 1? A tenth level of Eldritch Disciple wouldn't be a bad thing to happen either.

[Vaz]

Ur Priest's earliest entry is 6th level.

[Forrestfire]

While you could use Apprentice (Spellcaster) to get 8 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to enter Ur-Priest earlier than 5, as far as I know, there isn't a way to do the same with Spellcraft. So, you're pretty much out of luck on that front.

[Kazudo]

Primary Contact might do it, but that's five feats to gain one earlier entry on Ur-Priest. Would there be a way to get an Ur-Priest with access to 2nd level spells before 2nd level instead?

[Gemini476]

Ur-Priest requires eight ranks in three different skills. You cannot get that before level five, meaning that the earliest entry (without some major shenanigans) is level 6.

[Kazudo]

Right. Of course, now then, for the second part of my question, would there be some way to get 2nd level ur-priest spells during ur-priest 1?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Right. Of course, now then, for the second part of my question, would there be some way to get 2nd level ur-priest spells during ur-priest 1?

Actual second level spells? Probably not, as I believe the Dragon's Blood spell pool trick won't work since Ur-Priest is not an arcane caster. Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell can get you 1st level spells that count as 2nd level spells, though, including for qualification purposes. That being said, Ur-Priest 2 is the level that gets you Rebuke Undead, so it has that going for it.

[Jeff the Green]

Right. Of course, now then, for the second part of my question, would there be some way to get 2nd level ur-priest spells during ur-priest 1?

The Mad Faith feat (HoH) will do it, though it will require you to have moderate depravity and will make it take twice as long to prepare spells.

[Kazudo]

True. I suppose it's good and locked in that far then.

The only reason for the two levels in Paladin of Tyranny is that the build needs +2 to Fort before Ur-Priest, and as long as there was going to be a dip, two levels in PoT gives CHA to saves as well as Deadly Touch. What other two level dip would you put there?

The character is human and using Able Learner to get the class skills necessary to proceed into Ur-Priest on time.

[gorfnab]

Might I recommend a different build setup.
Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Mindbender 1/ Eldritch Disciple 5
The level of Binder nets you the ability to bind Naberius to offset the con damage from Hellfire. The 4th level ability of the Warlock, Deceive Item, is extremely useful. The level of Mindbender sets you up for the feat Mindsight.

[Kazudo]

The Mad Faith feat (HoH) will do it, though it will require you to have moderate depravity and will make it take twice as long to prepare spells.

Well! That's a whole new ball of wax. It fits in with the character concept too, really. I just need to ask the player which he wants more for his character, Divine Metamagic or better Invocations.

[Kazudo]

Might I recommend a different build setup.
Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Eldritch Disciple 2/ Mindbender 1/ Eldritch Disciple 5
This nets you the ability to bind Naberius to offset the con damage from Hellfire. The level of Mindbender sets you up for the feat Mindsight.

Mindbender wouldn't be a terrible notion. The big question would be, though, wouldn't Mind over Body let you heal that damage back quickly?

[gorfnab]

Mindbender wouldn't be a terrible notion. The big question would be, though, wouldn't Mind over Body let you heal that damage back quickly?
Which Mind over Body are you implying? When binding Naberius a character can heal 1 point of ability damage each round. This allows the use of Hellfire every round. Just keep the characters con score at an odd number to avoid loosing hp.

[Kazudo]

Ah, that would be greatly improved. Mind Over Body is a feat in the SRD that grants ability heal of 1+CON mod per day. Unfortunately, Hellfire Shield requires CON. It would have quickly diminishing returns. Idiot question here, does Hellfire Blast even REQUIRE CON damage? If so, where is that in the Fiendish Codex II?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If you stick with paladin of tyranny, I would recommend grabbing serenity so that it keys off of wisdom instead.

[Vaz]

Enlightened Spirit adss effectively nothing at 20th level. Why do you need that in there, especially when it requires an alignment change?

[The Grue]

Not to mention a Warlock/Binder is incredibly thematically appropriate.

[bekeleven]

Bloodlines increase your max skill ranks (although they give you no skill points). Take a minor bloodline, pay 1k XP before hitting level 2, and your max skill ranks will be 1 higher for the rest of your build.

[Kazudo]

Enlightened Spirit adss effectively nothing at 20th level. Why do you need that in there, especially when it requires an alignment change?

It was something the player was interested in. I think he saw the ability to damage incorporeal and undead creatures and liked it.


Not to mention a Warlock/Binder is incredibly thematically appropriate.

I agree, actually! A Warlock/Binder/Ur-Priest is really just out to piss EVERYONE off! It's important to note that the player itself is looking not to maintain the evil alignment. We're playing under the ruling that, save for Complete Arcane and Warrior, you don't have to qualify for the class after entry UNLESS there is an ex-class entry stating otherwise. There is no Ex-Warlock, Ex-Ur-Priest, or Ex-Eldritch Disciple clause (that I can find), so I'm fine with him jumping his alignment from LE to LN once he's got the PrCs figured out.


Bloodlines increase your max skill ranks (although they give you no skill points). Take a minor bloodline, pay 1k XP before hitting level 2, and your max skill ranks will be 1 higher for the rest of your build.

How's that?

As a side note, the player has to be human for cross-class skills and skill rank reasons to make things time right, but what LA +1 or +2 template(s) would you consider adding to make this build just a bit better?

[bekeleven]

How's that?

Bloodlines:

A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks.

[Urpriest]

I agree, actually! A Warlock/Binder/Ur-Priest is really just out to piss EVERYONE off! It's important to note that the player itself is looking not to maintain the evil alignment. We're playing under the ruling that, save for Complete Arcane and Warrior, you don't have to qualify for the class after entry UNLESS there is an ex-class entry stating otherwise. There is no Ex-Warlock, Ex-Ur-Priest, or Ex-Eldritch Disciple clause (that I can find), so I'm fine with him jumping his alignment from LE to LN once he's got the PrCs figured out.



How's that?

As a side note, the player has to be human for cross-class skills and skill rank reasons to make things time right, but what LA +1 or +2 template(s) would you consider adding to make this build just a bit better?

If he's planning to jaunt all the way to Exalted Good, then Saint might actually be useful.

[Gemini476]

Not to mention a Warlock/Binder is incredibly thematically appropriate.

No kidding. Guess what class binds vestiges in 4E? The Warlock.
He also has the option to get his power from infernal/Far Realm/fey places, but yeah. It's ridiculously thematic.

On the subject of bloodlines, while they are technically a bit thematic as well in regards to the Warlock, that application of them is also incredibly cheesy.

[Kazudo]

If he's planning to jaunt all the way to Exalted Good, then Saint might actually be useful.

I have actually pitched the idea to the player, who plans to do so once he's through with the two levels in Ur Priest. We're getting through the conflicting no deity/deity/dead deity/deity again stuff which actually fits VERY well with the campaign setting.

[gorfnab]

Idiot question here, does Hellfire Blast even REQUIRE CON damage? If so, where is that in the Fiendish Codex II?
It's in the description of Hellfire Blast.


Hellfire Blast (Sp): Whenever you use your eldritch blast ability, you can change your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast. A hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level. If your blast hits multiple targets (for example, the eldritch chain or eldritch cone blast shape invocations), each target takes the extra damage. This damage is not fire damage. Hellfire burns hotter than any normal fire, as described in the sidebar on page 119.

Each time you use this ability, you take 1 point of Constitution damage. Because the diabolical forces behind the power of hellfire demand part of your essence in exchange for this granted power, if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.

Also WOTC put the Hellfire Warlock as a preview here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3).

[Chronos]

For race, you might also consider Illumian. They count as human, so they're still eligible for Able Learner, but they have some tricks available to them that can be very useful for a spellcaster, including a couple of different methods of getting 2nd-level spells early.

[Gemini476]

For race, you might also consider Illumian. They count as human, so they're still eligible for Able Learner, but they have some tricks available to them that can be very useful for a spellcaster, including a couple of different methods of getting 2nd-level spells early.

That trick requires both Turn Undead and Heighten, though. And since he gets Turn Undead on the second level of Ur-Priest, which is when he also gets second-level spells...

[Rebel7284]

Wasn't there that third party feat that allowed breaking skill caps by 1 for int based skills? It was mentioned on MinMax boards fun finds recently.

Obviously requires a pretty permissive DM.

[Chronos]

That trick requires both Turn Undead and Heighten, though.
Like I said, a couple of different methods. You can also do Improved Sigil: Krau.

[RedMage125]

Won't the alignment prerequisite of Enlightened Spirit make him lose all his Paladin of Tyranny and Ur-Priest powers?

Just saying, you have a mostly "evil" guy here, with a PrC that requires him to be "any good"

[Urpriest]

Won't the alignment prerequisite of Enlightened Spirit make him lose all his Paladin of Tyranny and Ur-Priest powers?

Just saying, you have a mostly "evil" guy here, with a PrC that requires him to be "any good"

Already covered:


It was something the player was interested in. I think he saw the ability to damage incorporeal and undead creatures and liked it.



I agree, actually! A Warlock/Binder/Ur-Priest is really just out to piss EVERYONE off! It's important to note that the player itself is looking not to maintain the evil alignment. We're playing under the ruling that, save for Complete Arcane and Warrior, you don't have to qualify for the class after entry UNLESS there is an ex-class entry stating otherwise. There is no Ex-Warlock, Ex-Ur-Priest, or Ex-Eldritch Disciple clause (that I can find), so I'm fine with him jumping his alignment from LE to LN once he's got the PrCs figured out.



How's that?

As a side note, the player has to be human for cross-class skills and skill rank reasons to make things time right, but what LA +1 or +2 template(s) would you consider adding to make this build just a bit better?