Forsaker Help

[Effero]

For thematic reasons, I've been looking into the Forsaker class on a theoretical character, but am at a complete loss as to how to optimize it. Here what I have so far:

Race: Warforged
Fighter 3/Forsaker 7/ Warforged Juggernaut 5/Elemental Warrior 5

The downside is no magic healing but that is with Forsaker and Juggernaut. Btw is Elemental Warrior cheesing too much because the abilities aren't technically magic?

[Wacky89]

Fist of the Forest is nice to get in there too. Then you get con to ac twice.


You could consider taking arctic and dragonborn for +4 con, lesser ooze paraganesi is +4 con too

[Ellowryn]

Elemental Warrior is not really worth it though. It has Average BaB, and a few cool ability that is useable once per day. Going full 10 Forsaker and then 2 FotF will serve you better.

Grabbing Dragonborn and getting the Wings special ability is a must because you will have no other way to gain flight. Also think about tossing in a level of Barbarian cause that third level of fighter isnt giving you anything.

[Baroknik]

Elemental Warrior is not really worth it though. It has Average BaB, and a few cool ability that is useable once per day. Going full 10 Forsaker and then 2 FotF will serve you better.

Grabbing Dragonborn and getting the Wings special ability is a must because you will have no other way to gain flight. Also think about tossing in a level of Barbarian cause that third level of fighter isnt giving you anything.

You could also look at Raptoran for a form of flight with no LA.

[Ellowryn]

You could also look at Raptoran for a form of flight with no LA.

But that means no juggernaut, which i believe he really wanted on this build.

Anyways, yeah, full build should be something like this: Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Forsaker 10/Warforged Juggernaut 5/Fist of the Forest 2

For feats:
Great Fotitude (Flaw)
Iron Will (Flaw)
Adamantite body (1)
Power Attack (FBF1)
Lightning Reflexes (3)
Improved Bullrush (FBF2)
Extra Rage (6)
Shock Trooper (9)
Leap Attack (12)
Improved Unarmed Strike (15)
Superior Unarmed Strike (18)

Run around with a large Morning star (a two-handed simple weapon) with ex flight and immunities like a golem.

If you really wanted to go off the deep end, and you can convince the DM to allow 2 more flaws, take VoP and Rp as a scarred warrior who is torn between his hatred of all things magic and the desire to help others.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Forsaker is a pretty bad class that doesn't nearly even begin to make up for what you lose. To optimize it, you definitely want Vow of Poverty to at least get some "magical" benefits back, and you want to exploit the insanity that it's spell resistance stacks with any other you might have. So you want to have spell resistance from another source, possibly Drow is worth the +2 level adjustment here. If there's a low level class-based means of getting SR, then yeah you want Raptoran or something else to get flight, you'll be pretty hosed without it. Another good possibility is if you go Necropolitan pre-Forsaker entry for all the nice undead immunities (I think fast healing works on undead...). Another racial / class option is something that'll get you into Warshaper (like...Changeling or Wildshape Ranger) since it's an amazing short PrC and gives a much better fast healing ability than Forsaker's.

Also look at Magic of Incarnum classes, since those abilities aren't technically magic items. And of course...you can enter Forsaker at level 1 if you have the feats for it (go-go flaws!) so you really have no excuse to put it off for too long; you're going to have to adapt to no magic items and no spells eventually anyway, may as well make the transition earlier.

Spell Resistance (Ex): At 1st level, the forsaker gains spell resistance 11. This value increases by +1 with each forsaker level gained and stacks with any other applicable spell resistance he has.

If you want something more balanced (both less sucky and less abusive...) and are open to homebrew, I made a 3.5 version of Forsaker (http://torchofspirit.proboards.com/thread/202/3-5-forsaker) that shuts off more "magic-like" abilities 3E introduced and doesn't stack SR (but grows it faster) and gets way more class features. Generally, I took out all the stuff that makes Forsaker better vs. physical attackers and put in a ton of magic-defense features instead. Also, I based the class around my Vow of Poverty houserules (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?320057-Simple-%28hopefully%29-balanced-Vow-of-Poverty-Houserules!) where instead of costing and granting feats and giving fixed benefits, it's just a character choice where you get [wealth by level] gp in wealth each level up to spend on whatever magic item effects you want to get that become inherent powers from within. Balanced by not being able to use expendable magic items nor getting the incremental wealth increase over the course of each level up that other characters enjoy.

[Effero]

But that means no juggernaut, which i believe he really wanted on this build.

True


Anyways, yeah, full build should be something like this: Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Forsaker 10/Warforged Juggernaut 5/Fist of the Forest 2

For feats:
Great Fotitude (Flaw)
Iron Will (Flaw)
Adamantite body (1)
Power Attack (FBF1)
Lightning Reflexes (3)
Improved Bullrush (FBF2)
Extra Rage (6)
Shock Trooper (9)
Leap Attack (12)
Improved Unarmed Strike (15)
Superior Unarmed Strike (18)

Run around with a large Morning star (a two-handed simple weapon) with ex flight and immunities like a golem.

If you really wanted to go off the deep end, and you can convince the DM to allow 2 more flaws, take VoP and Rp as a scarred warrior who is torn between his hatred of all things magic and the desire to help others.

Is Fist of the Forest going to be worth it? I am going to be considered to be wearing Heavy Plate all the time.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Consider including Vow of Poverty, as long as you're not using magic items you may as well get the most out of it. You can completely skip destroying magic items and you'll only miss out on the weak DR it grants, and you'll have DR from Warforged anyway.

Add the Dragonborn of Bahamut template onto that to gain wings so you can fly. You'll retain your original type and subtypes, including the living construct subtype and everything it grants, so the only thing you lose to Dragonborn is the default composite plating and light fortification. You're still a Warforged and can still take Warforged-specific feats such as Adamantine Body. The natural slam attack a warforged has is a physical quality that you'll get to keep when you become dragonborn as long as you still have metal fists.

Note that even with Adamantine Body you'll be able to use that fly speed. You're considered to be wearing heavy armor, but it does not encumber you and flight is based on encumbrance, and the feat itself specifically only excludes class features prohibited to a character wearing heavy armor.

I'll agree that Forsaker 10 is the way to go, but I would start taking and max out Warforged Juggernaut earlier in the build. Maybe consider finishing it with Pyrokineticist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm) or similar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e), you would need to pick up Wild Talent and this is assuming psi-like abilities are not the same as spell-like abilities for purposes of the Forsaker's restrictions.

With two flaws and saying you gained Iron Will via the Otyugh Hole in CS without spending a feat on it, you could go Fighter 1/ Forsaker 8/ Warforged Juggernaut. Get Adamantine Body and your other Forsaker prerequisites at 1st, Power Attack with your Fighter feat, take Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at 3rd and 6th, and get Improved Bull Rush at 9th. You could start with two Fighter levels if you want to get Warforged Juggernaut earlier. It makes sense for a 1st level Warforged to be able to survive the Otyugh Hole since they're immune to disease, don't need to eat, and otyughs wouldn't consider him edible.

[Ellowryn]

True



Is Fist of the Forest going to be worth it? I am going to be considered to be wearing Heavy Plate all the time.

Ack, forgot about the armor, yeah just finish up the build with 2 more Fighter.

[Effero]

Ack, forgot about the armor, yeah just finish up the build with 2 more Fighter.

Ok so Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Forsaker 10/Warforged Juggernaut 5? I could remove the Fighter class altogether with Flaws and go strait for Forsaker. Use of the unarmed Feats makes less sense without Fist of the Forest. Btw I can find the Lion Totem Barbarian but I don't know where the Whirling Frenzy part comes from (found on dndwiki but still don't know what book). Taking level in Barbarian is an option. Pyrokineticist is possible but I would have to cut the Fighter levels and maybe even Barbarian.

Warforged have only been made in humanoid form I learned yesterday, so templates my be hard to sell to my DM. However if approved, something with flight is what would be best? What about Winged from Savage Species? It seems simple enough, no Reqs and justifiable to a DM. Others are saying Dragonborn of Bahamut template but I can't seem to find a template just a Race.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ok so Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Forsaker 10/Warforged Juggernaut 5? I could remove the Fighter class altogether with Flaws and go strait for Forsaker. Use of the unarmed Feats makes less sense without Fist of the Forest. Btw I can find the Lion Totem Barbarian but I don't know where the Whirling Frenzy part comes from (found on dndwiki but still don't know what book). Taking level in Barbarian is an option. Pyrokineticist is possible but I would have to cut the Fighter levels and maybe even Barbarian.

Warforged have only been made in humanoid form I learned yesterday, so templates my be hard to sell to my DM. However if approved, something with flight is what would be best? What about Winged from Savage Species? It seems simple enough, no Reqs and justifiable to a DM. Others are saying Dragonborn of Bahamut template but I can't seem to find a template just a Race.

Dragonborn of Bahamut (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) is indeed a template, found in Races of the Dragon. You'll have to open up that book to see the mechanics of rebirth sidebar, but basically you'll just lose your default composite plating and fortification that comes with being warforged.

[Dread_Head]

Ok so Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Forsaker 10/Warforged Juggernaut 5? I could remove the Fighter class altogether with Flaws and go strait for Forsaker. Use of the unarmed Feats makes less sense without Fist of the Forest. Btw I can find the Lion Totem Barbarian but I don't know where the Whirling Frenzy part comes from (found on dndwiki but still don't know what book). Taking level in Barbarian is an option. Pyrokineticist is possible but I would have to cut the Fighter levels and maybe even Barbarian.

Warforged have only been made in humanoid form I learned yesterday, so templates my be hard to sell to my DM. However if approved, something with flight is what would be best? What about Winged from Savage Species? It seems simple enough, no Reqs and justifiable to a DM. Others are saying Dragonborn of Bahamut template but I can't seem to find a template just a Race.

Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) if from Unearthed Arcana / the SRD, it gives you an extra attack during rage for -2 to hit with all attacks and no con bonus all in all a great trade.
Make sure you're looking at Spirit Lion Totem not Lion Totem, the former is in Complete Champion and trades Fast Movement for Pounce whereas Lion totem is in Unearthed Arcana and is generally lacklustre.

In terms of class choice, if you can get into Forsaker with flaws then don't bother with Fighter unless you really want the Dungeoncrasher(Dungeonscape) sub levels. Something like Warblade(Tome of Battle) picked up later in your career for higher level Manoeuvres would be better.

Dragonborn is an acquired template that you gain after undergoing a ritual so it is possible for a Warforged to gain it. It's better than winged as it has no level adjustment.

[Ellowryn]

Ok so Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Forsaker 10/Warforged Juggernaut 5? I could remove the Fighter class altogether with Flaws and go strait for Forsaker. Use of the unarmed Feats makes less sense without Fist of the Forest. Btw I can find the Lion Totem Barbarian but I don't know where the Whirling Frenzy part comes from (found on dndwiki but still don't know what book). Taking level in Barbarian is an option. Pyrokineticist is possible but I would have to cut the Fighter levels and maybe even Barbarian.

Warforged have only been made in humanoid form I learned yesterday, so templates my be hard to sell to my DM. However if approved, something with flight is what would be best? What about Winged from Savage Species? It seems simple enough, no Reqs and justifiable to a DM. Others are saying Dragonborn of Bahamut template but I can't seem to find a template just a Race.

Whirling Frenzy Barbarian is in Unearthed Arcana and gives you +4 Str, +2 Dodge bonus to AC and Reflex Saves, and the ability to make 1 extra attack each round with a -2 penalty to hit on all attacks.

As Biffoniacus_Furiou pointed out Dragonborn is in Races of the Dragon and gives you flight at 12 HD.

Yes, you can drop the Unarmed feats and grab something else to taste in its place, maybe mage slayer and its chain. On the Pyrokineticist dip, most DMs run the Psionics=Spells option so you cant take the class with forsaker, but if you really like it you could ask to see if its okay. I wouldnt as it loses you BaB which means less damage from Power Attack.

Edit: Darn Warblade Ninja's! :smallfurious:

[Baroknik]

Definitely look into picking up Spellward Shirt if you can swing some essentia. While normally SR isn't worth it, since Forsaker SR stacks, you can get some respectable levels of SR (at which point it actually is noticeable).

Forsaker SR: 10 + Forsaker level
Spellward Shirt: 5 + 4/essentia invested

If you can boost your essentia up to even 2, then you can have 23 + Forsaker level SR (max 33 at Forsaker 10), which is respectable.

Other options for stacking your SR will tend to increase your LA, which is generally a poor option since you tend to fight higher leveled bosses than your group is (for instance if you are a Drow and fighting a caster that is party level + 2, you are going to be 4 SR behind him on his penetration chance). However, this is mitigated since you have the option of stacking your SR

Since you are looking for warforged, that is less of an issue (since SR with LA tends to come from race), but you could always look at being a Half-Fiend (or just fiendish) for SR 10 + HD (or 5 + HD). At ECL 20 those would be something like:

Half-Fiend route: SR 46
Fiendish route: SR 43

Which means that a caster without spell penetration is looking at a <50% chance of successfully casting a spell on you. I would be inclined to go with Fiendish if you can get LA buyoff, as after level 9 you would be caught up, putting your ECL 20 SR at 45 (only one less).



EDIT: Actually just did some thinking about it and boy do I have an option for you! (Though it may smell a little cheesy to some!)

You began existence as a simple warforged, unfortunately you were quickly abducted by a stranger sorcerer who experimented on you, constantly shutting you on and off (rather violently) to look for what "life" there was in you. Then one day something changed, you felt yourself waking back up from being deactivated but something was different. You felt yourself more "alive" than ever before! You were invigorated by this new revelation, and so was your master. Unfortunately, he looked at it as a success that needed more testing -- and went back to his experiments. Finally, after having enough, you were able to break free and kill him. You now find yourself lonely in a world you have never known -- how long were you in that lab?

In effect I am stacking two templates -- the Incarnate Construct template and the Spellwarped template, this ends up giving you a net LA of +1 for the following benefits:

Loss of Slam attack (n/a)
Change of type: Construct (living construct) --> humanoid --> aberration
Natural Armor + 2
Spell Resistance 11 + HD
Spell Absorption
Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Int +4

Seems pretty awesome and Spell Absorption really kicks ass with the idea of this build. I may have to use this sometime for my next character!

*Note that at ECL 20 we are talking about 50 SR for a +1 LA (easily bought off).

[Effero]

You began existence as a simple warforged, unfortunately you were quickly abducted by a stranger sorcerer who experimented on you, constantly shutting you on and off (rather violently) to look for what "life" there was in you. Then one day something changed, you felt yourself waking back up from being deactivated but something was different. You felt yourself more "alive" than ever before! You were invigorated by this new revelation, and so was your master. Unfortunately, he looked at it as a success that needed more testing -- and went back to his experiments. Finally, after having enough, you were able to break free and kill him. You now find yourself lonely in a world you have never known -- how long were you in that lab?

I was going for something very much like that to justify taking Forsaker at 1st, and any templates I wanted anyway. It is pretty good for a character that is trying to destroy magical stuff only a small step to trying to kill evil mages. Frankenstein's Monster anyone?

Changing my type to aberration would make juggernaut impossible wouldn't it? But thinking it through, could I use any golem as a base instead of warforged? Reason I ask is RHD would make the Feral template an option as well. And it reopens Fist of the Forest as a possibility.

EDIT:

And someone said to check on the Reptilian template for flight with no LA. It's not on WotC template search, where would that be?

[Baroknik]

You don't have to be a construct in order to become a juggernaut, just a Warforged (may be against the spirit of it somewhat though).

Edit: It also gives you a good reason to play the juggernaut -- you are trying to get back in touch with your true self (since you become more construct-like as the class progresses).

[Karnith]

And someone said to check on the Reptilian template for flight with no LA. It's not on WotC template search, where would that be?
The Reptilian creature template is in Savage Species pp. 128-129. Note, however, that it doesn't provide flight, is ECL +2, and is really bad. You're probably looking for the Raptoran race, which is LA +0 and grants flight at higher levels, in Races of the Wild p. 68.

[Effero]

You don't have to be a construct in order to become a juggernaut, just a Warforged (may be against the spirit of it somewhat though).

Edit: It also gives you a good reason to play the juggernaut -- you are trying to get back in touch with your true self (since you become more construct-like as the class progresses).

I like that idea.


The Reptilian creature template is in Savage Species pp. 128-129. Note, however, that it doesn't provide flight, is ECL +2, and is really bad. You're probably looking for the Raptoran race, which is LA +0 and grants flight at higher levels, in Races of the Wild p. 68.

That would make sense why I couldn't find it then.

[Effero]

In effect I am stacking two templates -- the Incarnate Construct template and the Spellwarped template, this ends up giving you a net LA of +1

Was taking a look at these in the books, Incarnate Construct is LA -2 (min 0) and the Spellwarped is LA +3. If Incarnate Construct is applied first then does it proactively lower other templates LA? Or would applying Spellwarped after make the combo LA +3?

[Muggins]

Was taking a look at these in the books, Incarnate Construct is LA -2 (min 0) and the Spellwarped is LA +3. If Incarnate Construct is applied first then does it proactively lower other templates LA? Or would applying Spellwarped after make the combo LA +3?
You can't apply Spellwarped (an inherited template) to an Incarnate Construct (an acquired template) because you'd have to apply Spellwarped before Incarnate Construct (and Warforged don't qualify).

The best attempt I've seen at building a Forsaker was The Viscount's marvelous The Fixer (www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15484085&postcount=329), which used the +2 LA Karsites from Tome of Magic. They're basically humans with the Spellwarped template, except they also can't use traditional magic (binding, psionics and the other variants are explicitly fine).

Combine with the aforementioned Vow of Poverty (you can even take it at first level, since you've still got the human level 1 bonus feat) so that you have any chance at keeping up with the other characters in your party.

[Effero]

You can't apply Spellwarped (an inherited template) to an Incarnate Construct (an acquired template) because you'd have to apply Spellwarped before Incarnate Construct (and Warforged don't qualify).

The best attempt I've seen at building a Forsaker was The Viscount's marvelous The Fixer (www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15484085&postcount=329), which used the +2 LA Karsites from Tome of Magic. They're basically humans with the Spellwarped template, except they also can't use traditional magic (binding, psionics and the other variants are explicitly fine).

Combine with the aforementioned Vow of Poverty (you can even take it at first level, since you've still got the human level 1 bonus feat) so that you have any chance at keeping up with the other characters in your party.

Okay I was afraid of that... so to change things up lets discuss this. If I gave up the Warforged part of this whole thing and focus on the Forsaker part. I could use the +2 LA Karsites and follow the Vow of Poverty concept. I have 10 levels to work with and a bunch exulted feats. Any Recommendations? Monk seems to fit and with that maybe Fist of the Forest. Btw does the Natural Weapons class feature from Forsaker count toward a Monk's Unarmed Strikes or other natural weapons?

[Muggins]

With no magic items and Vow of Poverty, you'll likely be best off taking classes with natural attacks. Two levels in Totemist nets you one or two natural attacks, and there are a few Binder vestiges which give you natural attacks too. Person_Man's Guide to Extra Attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127463-3-X-Extra-attacks-natural-attacks-AoO) will give you a bigger list of stuff.

As for the Natural Weapons class feature, the best 3.5e comparison is probably Ki Strike (Magic). It will let your weapons, unarmed strikes and natural attacks bypass DR/Magic. That's really all there is to it.

Edit: And if you're that fussed about unarmed strike damage (such as if you're not going to use the simple weapon allowed by Vow of Poverty), you can just take the Superior Unarmed Strike feat from Tome of Battle.

[Baroknik]

I didn't realize spell warped was inherited (which is weird from a fluff stance IMO). You could always talk to your DM about getting it stacked anyway, or you could pick a non-warforged and play as it (though at LA +3). Normally that LA would be really high, but we'd still be talking about an SR of 48 before LA buyoff...