Buff spells are great...but how do you find time for them?

[Segev]

I'm playing a PF paladin in a 3.P Planescape game. I have the feat that allows me to cast my Paladin spells as Swift actions. Even so, I still find myself with more buff spells left at the end of a day than actually cast, because their durations are so low and I rarely have the luxury of the 2-4 rounds needed to put them up. With them up, I'm utterly devastating in combat. But usually, I do'nt hav ethem up and am merely a fighter-type. Even with the impressive bonuses to Smite things, it's not enough to make me effective, comparatively.

So, does anybody have suggestions on how to get more time/actions to put up buff spells, without necessarily breaking the action economy of the game? (Suggestions on how a level 12 Paladin might do the latter are also welcome, as I might be able to adapt them with the DM's help, too.)

Alternatively, tricks for guaranteeing (or at least increasing the odds) that I might know of a fight within the duration of a buff spell so I can start pre-buffing would be welcome.

[Gildedragon]

DMM persist, extend, twin, or chain are all ways to either get buffs for longer or apply one buff to many folks
[War] spells are also handy but they take a while to cast and need an expensive focus

[eggynack]

I'm not quite sure I see the issue here. Casting these spells isn't eating into your time in combat, because they're swift actions, and you presumably don't have much better you can do with a swift. Can't you just buff/attack every round, thus gaining a steady increase in power as combat progresses? If you end up with too many buff spells at the end of the day, then is there something else you could be using those spells on, either longer term buffs, or utility?

There's also always the alternative solution. If combat is proceeding too quickly, and that's putting you at a disadvantage, perhaps you could coordinate with your party members such that they use combat slowing tactics. Maybe have your casters toss out fewer fireballs, and more fogs. Then, combat would last more than 2-4 rounds, and you would have the ability to make the fullest possible use of your resources.

[Red Fel]

DMM persist, extend, twin, or chain are all ways to either get buffs for longer or apply one buff to many folks
[War] spells are also handy but they take a while to cast and need an expensive focus

Pretty much this. Buffs are great, but spending combat rounds buffing is an unfortunate waste of combat. Unless you are preparing for an encounter (i.e. inside a Rope Trick preparing to rush out, or on the opposite side of a heavy door, or setting up an ambush) your best bet is to set up your all-day buffs via DMM Persist. Swift action buffs are great on the fly, admittedly; you can buff yourself quite efficiently, using your standard/full actions in combat while using swift actions to buff (note that you might draw AoOs doing so). But swift action buffs generally help you far more than they'd help the rest of your party, and you'd obviously be sitting there going "Smack face, smack face, buff. Smack face, smack face, buff. Smack face, smack face, buff." And by the time your third buff is in place, combat is over.

[Segev]

DMM Persist is very likely to get a huge "no" from the DM, and is at least two feats away for me at the moment, sadly. It might not otherwise be a bad idea, though.

Part of it is that combat is too quick IC...but making it slower IC would make it unacceptably slow OOC, as it takes far too long to resolve at times as it is. This is not a thing we can really fix; it's just a fact of our group and our venue's enforced format (we play on IRC). Even when fights do last long enough, as well, my swift actions are often spoken for as the exigencies of combat need me to heal myself or activate Smite Evil on another target. (I also often burn two for the really cool PF Paladin ability to grant the privilege to use it to my fellow PCs.)

What I am looking for, primarily, are suggestions along the lines of "in a rope trick:" ways to buy time at the start of combat, or to ensure that I have time before combat starts, to put up my buffs of choice. If there are also ways to know a fight is imminent, rather than to be the one stumbling into it only half-prepared (i.e., knew one was going to result when we ran into enemies, but never knowing when we're going to do that before we are upon them), I'd appreciate suggestions pointing towards those.

Honestly, a Time Stop would be great...but that is a 9th level spell for a reason, and our party is 12th level.

[Urpriest]

How are your casters and rogue-types? Ideally someone should have some scouting ability at this point. Shadow Demons can be summoned with Summon Monster, and make great scouts, although somewhat inefficient spell-slot-wise at this point.

[Piggy Knowles]

Decent scouting and divination go a long way towards making sure that you're prepared and can nab a round or two of buffing before most fights. Also, a decent control wizard/druid who locks down enemies can by you some buff rounds in many fights. But, if the DM is at all decent at challenging your party, there will ALWAYS be times when you are forced into battle without the luxury of buffs first.

At that point, you have to make sure that any buff you use either doesn't preclude you from attacking, or is worth more than a round of fighting. Chances are, any personal buffs WON'T be, but some party buffs like haste can be (assuming haste is roughly the same in PF). This often means keeping some persistent or swift-action buffs under your hat, or making sure you have one game-changing buff spell prepared.

[Spore]

I put some slots to use when the day starts (hour/level), others I use when I enter the dungeon (10 minutes/level). Lastly some buffs are used right before battle (min/level, those are my preferred extend spell targets) and some in battle (rounds/level). With my ranger, I cast Longstrider at the beginning of the day. I cast Barkskin with an Extend Rod when facing enemy territory and if I spot enemy charging I will cast Lead Blades or Cat's Grace.

I prepare accordingly. There is no use in preparing a gazillion uses of Divine Favor and Bless Weapon leaving no slots open to use the remaining slots for healing. Spell economy is key here but you can be lucky because as dilletante spellcaster it isn't your main problem how you spend your points.

Focus on more important things like maintaining presence on the battlefield, utilizing your damage to your best ability and minimizing risks for you and your group. If you really struggle, ask about or watch the number of encounters your DM throws at you between breaks. Some DMs have a tendency to use one encounter per adventuring day, others chase you through their dungeon with monsters.

[Segev]

We're definitely on the "one or fewer combat per adventuring day" list, as a general rule.

This is actually usually a good thing for any sort of caster, primary or not, because it lets them nova. But yes, when I'm having to ration swift actions for various purposes and there's only so many I get in the fight before it's over, nova-ing is actually less of a problem than simply having the time in which to cast reasonably.

I suppose another option is to re-think things and change my fighting style so I don't need the buffs. That's sad to do, as I like the fighting style's schtick, but...it really is spreading focus too thin. In that case, changing out the spells I'd spend on buffs for utility would probably be wise. I'm bad at judging what spells are good for a paladin to be using as utility, though. Especially with Mercies making a lot of the "heal a condition" spells questionable.

[Urpriest]

Incidentally, at your level minutes/level spells are almost able to last the whole dungeon, if your dungeons are quick ones. I'd try tallying in your head how long your next dungeon goes in terms of rounds in combat and distances traveled out of combat, and see for yourself whether you can manage min/level buffs.

[Ansem]

War weaver, simple.

[Segev]

We tend to explore dungeons for longer periods of time, simply because they're big and empty except in the exciting areas. Things like entire catacombs under cities.

And I'm a Paladin; I do'nt really have options for arcane caster class developments that would be useful.

[Slipperychicken]

Incidentally, at your level minutes/level spells are almost able to last the whole dungeon, if your dungeons are quick ones. I'd try tallying in your head how long your next dungeon goes in terms of rounds in combat and distances traveled out of combat, and see for yourself whether you can manage min/level buffs.

Yeah, I had good experiences with minute/level buffs, even at low levels. Try throwing them up before you enter a dungeon, before you enter a room, or when someone starts looking at you funny. Especially if you know you enemy is in there, whether you got that from the mission briefing, or from reconnaissance. As a rule of thumb, any time you draw your sword is a good time to cast minute/level buffs. Save the round/level ones for when it comes to blows. Parley can possibly buy you buff rounds with intelligent enemies, but it may or may not gel with the Paladin shtick.

Also, if you have too many short-duration buffs left over each day, even then (having a few left over is fine, in case you have a marathon-combat day), try looking for other uses for your spell slots. Like if the Paladin list has any hour/level buffs or utility spells available.

EDIT: Try to send the rogue roughly 60ft ahead of the party (or one room ahead) so he can scout it out and report back, ideally while the party is standing still and being quiet. The 60ft thing is so he can quickly run back if he gets jumped, but not get given away by Sir Fullplate Clanksalot the Fighter. That should give you at least buff round or two for most encounters.

[Techwarrior]

Swift action buffs are great on the fly, admittedly; you can buff yourself quite efficiently, using your standard/full actions in combat while using swift actions to buff [b](note that you might draw AoOs doing so).[b]

That's not true. Swift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#swiftActions) action spells don't provoke unless the spell itself says so.


Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

[Rebel7284]

Ruby Knight Vindicator can get an extra swift action every round at level 12 (or under some interpretations, all the swift actions). Of course, that would require a character rebuild.

[Red Fel]

That's not true. Swift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#swiftActions) action spells don't provoke unless the spell itself says so.

Well, that's why I said "might"; I wasn't sure of the rules on swift action spells. I stand corrected.

[jedipotter]

I'm playing a PF paladin in a 3.P Planescape game.

At 12th level, how many spells do you even get? Like 4? 6? A paladin is not a spellcaster like a cleric. Your not going to have spells going off all the time. You have to settle for two or three spell uses, and then just use your other stuff..


Why/how does it take so long for you to buff? Are you going nova for every encounter and casting like four spells? One swift action for one spell does not take up that much time.....

How about magic items? Make your own potions and wands?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Ruby Knight Vindicator can get an extra swift action every round at level 12 (or under some interpretations, all the swift actions). Of course, that would require a character rebuild.

RAW, as a non-specified (Su) ability, it takes a Standard Action to use.

[Gildedragon]

RAW, as a non-specified (Su) ability, it takes a Standard Action to use.
So the trick is to wriggle 8 levels of factotum in there. And then cram the build with as many Fonts of Inspiration as possible

[Segev]

At 12th level, how many spells do you even get? Like 4? 6? A paladin is not a spellcaster like a cleric. Your not going to have spells going off all the time. You have to settle for two or three spell uses, and then just use your other stuff..Four 1st level, four 2nd level, and three 3rd level spells, right now. And the problem is mainly that I don't have time to get off even one, as I cannot predict early enough when a fight will be to cast any "pre-battle" and have them reliably still around, and I have my Smite Evil to be using on turn 1. It's by far my BEST self-buff, so it goes first. And fights, due to how we play our game, are over in 1-2 rounds, tops.



Why/how does it take so long for you to buff? Are you going nova for every encounter and casting like four spells? One swift action for one spell does not take up that much time.....I'd like to go nova every encounter, sure. But in truth I have 1-2 rounds in a fight, and one of THOSE is used Smiting.


How about magic items? Make your own potions and wands?Wands are an...interesting idea. Still short on action economy, but...

[Occasional Sage]

One or two rounds per combat, and generally one combat per day?

I'm missing something here....

[Vogonjeltz]

So the trick is to wriggle 8 levels of factotum in there. And then cram the build with as many Fonts of Inspiration as possible


Already in the dysfunctional rules thread as that is also a standard action to gain...a standard action. Oops?


One or two rounds per combat, and generally one combat per day?

I'm missing something here....

I often find that even with full casters and a full set of encounters I can usually end encounters using only 2-3 spells each, and that's having a rather keen sense for when a combat is likely to break out.

[Segev]

I'm not entirely sure what there is to miss.

We don't play a combat-intensive game. So fights are rare, happen usually only once per game-day, and are short because we usually wind up ending them in 1-2 rounds.

To be effective in those 1-2 rounds, I use buffs to bump up my chances to hit and my damage.

I would like to get more of them up for these fights, so I am actually effective more often when we do fight. I have an unfortunate tendency to miss a lot without more bonuses. (Mostly due to the dicebot hating me.)

Because fights don't last long, I get buffs up pretty much only if I can get them up before fights start. Scouting better might help; I will talk to the party rogue about this.

[HighWater]

Scouting better might help; I will talk to the party rogue about this.
This may also be a DM-style peculiarity. As a DM it is easy to forget to drop hints that a combat is coming up (or to avoid dropping hints because you don't want to ruin the surprise), when "in reality" there should be several hints that combat will ensue shortly: sounds heard, tracks spotted, smells of food or stinky adversaries. Even the absense of sound can be a strong indicator something is up. The way you describe things sounds a bit like "you walk through room after room in this abandoned catacomb when MONSTERS! Roll Initiative!" Remind the DM that listen and spot function passively and that any monster who has ever moved has likely left something to spot and/or made a noise. If your Rogue (or another party member) is decently invested in those skills, there should be a good chance that they will hear the enemy in the next room/300ft away or spot their tracks or other indications of their passing. (A few fibers on a pointy rock, signs that some objects have recently been moved from their position, a big wall covered in freshly dripping graffity stating "THOG AND FRIENDZ WERE HERE!", you know: the subtle stuff.)
It may be worth informing the DM that you feel that combat start a bit too much "out of the blue" and that that is both hard on immersion as well as making it difficult for you to use your favored combat routine.

As a DM, it's okay to sometimes spring a combat or two on your players without warning, but it really spices up things if players also get to prepare every once in a while. Let alone the options of building up suspence by letting the players spot hints of enemy presence, hear strange noises from the other room etc. etc.

As to what you can do as a player:
As suggested, the scout should do more and better scouting and have a contingency plan when he's spotted, or he'll be dead and then blame you.
Maybe you should not use your swift actions for healing in combat. Sure, you may keep someone on their feet for another round, but you can also kill an enemy or two instead, while you've buffed yourself. If you spend a swift action healing, you're gonna spend your FullRound dealing less damage. Killing things is a good method of damage prevention.
The action sequence should be Swift -> Move+Standard/FullRoundAction, repeat.
Have fewer round/level buffs and more hour/level and 10min/level buffs if possible. Having buffs that last long allows you to prebuff even without knowing there's a combat coming and Smite already functions as a 1 round buff so it competes with short duration buffs.

Good luck!

[Spore]

I suppose another option is to re-think things and change my fighting style so I don't need the buffs. That's sad to do, as I like the fighting style's schtick,

You're a paladin, if you wanted to be a heavily buffed beatstick you should've chosen cleric. Your approach seems like you would've preferred cleric but chose paladin (because of fluff, because of mechanical reasons, idk).

Mechanically the Paladin's main advantage are the reactive immediate action spells. Hero's Defiance, Fire of Entanglement, Paladin's Sacrifice and Fire of Judgment can be very useful tools. A fellow character survived just because I used Paladin's sacrifice on her to take her breath weapon damage. I triggered Hero's Defiance, letting me effectively Lay on Hands twice in one round.

What does a Paladin do before battle? Hum, eh....nothing? He can smite evil and activate his weapon bond. That's about it.

What does a Cleric do before battle? Cast Greater Magic Weapon, twice Magic Vestment at the beginning of the day. He can buff his attributes not affected by gear, cast Magic Circle (alignment), cast Aid, cast some Domain spells (Shield, Heroism etc.). At the start of the battle, he casts Divine Favor (later Righteous Might) and Blessing of Fervor (see PF rules for that) and goes to town.

What can a Paladin do after battle? Lay on Hands, remove conditions, channel energy.

What can a Cleric do after battle? Remove drained attributes, heal, remove curses and other conditions, can find traps, repair damaged gear, make people walk in the air or message his prelate to update him via Sending.

A good fix for your problem would be to take some levels of the Life Oracle (known as Oradin in this forum). Get Life Link and use your free actions to heal. You can use your Paladin levels to your advantage and you get additional useful buff spells.

[Darrin]

Isn't there some dirty trick to use nanobots/symbiotes to cast spells for you?

Otherwise, can you get your hands on a few Glyph Seals (MIC)? Preload your spells in those, trigger as a free action.

[Chronos]

Do you have a cleric in your party? If so, the spell Omen of Peril can usually tell you whether you've got a significant encounter coming in the next hour or so, which would be enough advance warning for at least 10 min/level spells. It's only a first-level spell, so shouldn't be a significant cost for a 12th-level cleric.

[Urpriest]

Are you mostly in urban environments, or outside of cities? If the latter, you do have Detect Evil, which should extend through most doors and thin stone walls, so if you're careful you should be able to see encounters coming that way.

Also, be aware that since you only usually have one combat per day, you don't need to worry about "wasting" buffs for something that isn't actually an encounter. If you're worried, put your buffs up, and if it's nothing then you've still got room for the actual encounter.

[ericgrau]

Scouting could buy you one round. If it starts working frequently, then you may want to pick up silent spell to pop out more spells before you get noticed. Or better yet a lesser rod of silent spell to save you a feat.

Besides that go for buffs that are hour/level and cast enough to last 24 hours if possible, or at least 8. Some good ones include greater magic weapon and shield other tanking. A lesser rod of extend spell can help if you can get one. Figure out how many rounds you're able to buff reliably, and prepare only that many shorter duration spells. For any spells beyond that, pick up scrolls instead, and use those if you get lucky with an extra buff round.

[Urpriest]

Scouting could buy you one round. If it starts working frequently, then you may want to pick up silent spell to pop out more spells before you get noticed. Or better yet a lesser rod of silent spell to save you a feat.

Besides that go for buffs that are hour/level and cast enough to last 24 hours if possible, or at least 8. Some good ones include greater magic weapon and shield other tanking. A lesser rod of extend spell can help if you can get one. Figure out how many rounds you're able to buff reliably, and prepare only that many shorter duration spells. For any spells beyond that, pick up scrolls instead, and use those if you get lucky with an extra buff round.

Ooh yes, that's an important point. Shield Other will last 12 hours for you, easily all day, and it's one of the best ways you have to protect squishy teammates. Definitely want at least one of those up, if not more.

With the ability to cast as a swift (presumably this is optional, so you can cast as a standard if you want?) you can get two buffs out if you have a buff round. Not enough to spend your load on one fight every day, but enough to get the good stuff up before the fight.

[nedz]

One or two rounds per combat, and generally one combat per day?

I'm missing something here....

The OP's complaint is an artefact of the DMing style in play. If they had more combats per day, and/or the combats lasted longer than 2 rounds: then there wouldn't be this thread as the question wouldn't arise. I'm guessing all of the casters have plenty of unused spells at the end of the day too ?

Well there's no right or wrong was to play this game, but this particular style makes life easy on the casters — very easy.

[Flickerdart]

If your encounters are already so short, what is the problem? When 12 seconds is all you need to kill your enemies, you must be doing something right.

[Slipperychicken]

We don't play a combat-intensive game. So fights are rare, happen usually only once per game-day, and are short because we usually wind up ending them in 1-2 rounds.


In this case, you can pre-buff a little more liberally (i.e. hear something suspicious -> cast Bull's Strength just to be safe), or dedicate more of your spells to non-combat stuff which your buddies haven't covered adequately.


If your encounters are already so short, what is the problem? When 12 seconds is all you need to kill your enemies, you must be doing something right.

Agreeing with this. I had a GM like this before, so I figure Segev's GM doesn't really understand how to pace 3.5 or balance/justify the number of combats per day.

[Segev]

Some good ideas here; I haven't had a lot of luck finding good hour/level buffs, but I will look again, and it's true, since I don't find myself using most of my buff spells I do hope to use, more Shield Others would be useful. Though I'll definitely need to buff my own HP to be able to survive it.

The DM's style is one that actually does work well for the group. Pacing the game to have longer combats would actually make the game less fun for us, because we're not generally combat-focused. (In fact, one of the things I thought of after starting this thread was swapping out spells to have more utility ones...and discovered Paladins have a severe dearth of non-combat spells. Particularly if you discount the ones that replicate what they can already do with Mercies from Lay on Hands.) Combat rounds tend to take nearly an hour of real time, each, and thus if it lasts for 3 rounds, that's 75% of one game night spent on one combat.

So I'm not complaining about the DM's style, but rather explaining it, and attempting to come up with ways to adapt my own to play better with it. I don't play warrior-types very often because I usually find them boring, mechanically. The schtick I'm using with this one is not terribly optimal in terms of raw damage-dealing, but can be highly effective...if I can buff well enough. It does amuse me, when it works. (Stacking TWF and Rapid Shot with javelins and Quick Draw for more attacks/round than is healthy is great if you have the attack bonus to hit despite the massive penalties. It does mean some of the better long-duration buffs aren't practical: GMW when you're throwing a half-dozen of your weapons per round is just not going to work too well. I do have light crossbows I can use in place of javelins, though, and THOSE can be just one GMW for 50 ammo...I had forgotten that. "Only" a +3 to hit at my level, but that's still +2 more than I have with the javelins, and it's also +3 to damage.)

Thanks again for the advice and thoughts. If anybody does have suggestions for ways to get buff spells to "cast themselves," that might also be useful. "Nanobots" and "simbiots" were mentioned; the former sounds like something obscure while the latter sounds like it might be a no-go for RP reasons, but I'm still interested in hearing more. I've considered intelligent magic items that can cast them, too, but I would prefer it if it were my own spell slots and CL used.

[Segev]

Taking closer looks at some of the PF spells yields some...interesting possibilities. Fire of Vengeance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fire-of-vengeance), in particular, raises some interesting questions.

If I'm reading it correctly, the RAW are that you cast it, and it just hangs there, waiting indefinitely for you to use Smite Evil and attack the target thereof. Am I missing some clause about it expiring if you don't use it on the same turn or within one round or something?

If not...nothing here says it doesn't stack, either. Cast 2 of them, and the target critter gets 6d8 damage if it attacks somebody other than you. This could get ludicrous if you cast one or more of these per day on off days or just use it daily.

The target can avoid all consequences of the spell by making sure to attack you, but still...scary. And it doesn't say it goes away if you fall unconscious or die, so as long as your Smite doesn't end (at the end of the day), it can't even turn to attack your friends after it's dropped you without opening itself up to this damage!