help needed against a demilich

[VerinBlod]

Hi everyone,

Is there besides Psychic transformation another way to change feats and all? Maybe swap prohibited schools?

Reason that I ask is that our party is probably going to battle a demilich and I think that my wizard isn't entirely right equipped to battle this lich and it's minions.

My current build is FS conj5/ ms10/ loremaster1. Prohibited schools are evocation, enchantment and abjuration. My focus with this character is mainly battlefield control and some buffs and not so much in doing damage or protection.

I would like to be able to better protect the party and myself especially now that we don't have a cleric anymore, abjuration is looking attractive. Or deliver enough damage that I can one shot the lich.

Any thoughts for good spells or ways to change this character?

[Gildedragon]

Alter self into catfolk or tibbit, put ranks into Handle Humanoid (demiliches have the humanoid subtype) Profit!

[sleepyphoenixx]

Summoning lots of Movanic Deva (SM VII, FF) for their Holy Smite SLA and staying out of sight is probably your best bet. You'll need about 15 of them and hope the Lich doesn't just dispel or kill them all at once.
A Demilich is way above your CR and likely to kill you in the first round otherwise. If you can you should at least wait until you get access to SM IX for some better summoning options.

There's not much you can do otherwise. Even SR:no touch attacks are unlikely to hit, melee is just as screwed and unless everyone in your party can reliably succeed a DC 36 fort save you're dead before the Demilich even starts casting spells. If your DM actually plays it like the epic level wizard it is you don't stand a chance no matter what you do.

[Gildedragon]

Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) is the Handle Humanoid skill
it takes a move action and a DC of 25 to get the lich to protect you

[Vaz]

Hi everyone,

Is there besides Psychic transformation another way to change feats and all? Maybe swap prohibited schools?

Reason that I ask is that our party is probably going to battle a demilich and I think that my wizard isn't entirely right equipped to battle this lich and it's minions.

My current build is FS conj5/ ms10/ loremaster1. Prohibited schools are evocation, enchantment and abjuration. My focus with this character is mainly battlefield control and some buffs and not so much in doing damage or protection.

I would like to be able to better protect the party and myself especially now that we don't have a cleric anymore, abjuration is looking attractive. Or deliver enough damage that I can one shot the lich.

Any thoughts for good spells or ways to change this character?
Limitee wish can replicate the effects of 4th level spells and effects of a similar power. If playing as standard psychic transparency, then powers are arguably available for that effect.

Note that Psychic Equivalent, reality revision explicitly stops spells being replicated, and the 3.5 PHB hadn't been written in mind with the 3.5 XPH which hadn't been released so there is that against it.

[Spore]

My 3.5-Fu is rusty but maybe if you had Improved counterspell you could occupy his actions while your party tries their chance?

[Dugong]

Some of the few potential weaknesses the demi lich has is holy smite (a domain spell) and shatter. Shatter being an evocation spell is on your banned list, if you can somehow change banned schools then try to free up evocation.

I was in a short lived epic campaign as a sorcerer and I also pondered how to take on the demi lich. My only viable solution was arcane spellsurge and then massive use of Arcane fusion to throw as many metamagic'd shatters as I could, Ideally have an Assay spell resistance up first of course and the odd true strike. However I hit a wall when I realised the demi lich could just throw out an antimagic sphere and use his laser eyes. Disjunction and epic spells might break through but then you need to plan in more detail what your plan is.

Ideally you'd try to avoid the fight and find the liches body and destroy that, but if the DM wants you to fight a demi lich there's no real way to avoid it.

Think of the fight as fighting Azula (I just finished watching the last airbender :smallsmile:), if the demi lich is on his game you won't win. But if there's a flaw in its approach (maybe its crazy or banned some schools or has a powerful enemy because a loved one was soul sucked into the gem eyes) then try to find it and exploit that, rather than number crunch essentailly a TO to beat it by the numbers.

Good luck!

[VerinBlod]

Thanks guys!
The demilich will probably not be played to it's full strength. And we know it's way above our challenge rating. Knowing this DM he will not make it a no win situation.
The lich is being occupied with other pressing matters. We only have to get into it's lair to retrieve an item. So if we can avoid a confrontation that would be great. So superior invis will help in that regard. Still need something against true seeing.

And I could use shatter through limited wish. It would eat XP, but that's not much of a problem. Can you use limited wish to wish for an empowerd shatter?

BTW I like the idea of handle humanoid :) My DM is all for useing abilities creative. So that might even work :)

[Melcar]

Thanks guys!
The demilich will probably not be played to it's full strength. And we know it's way above our challenge rating. Knowing this DM he will not make it a no win situation.
The lich is being occupied with other pressing matters. We only have to get into it's lair to retrieve an item. So if we can avoid a confrontation that would be great. So superior invis will help in that regard. Still need something against true seeing.

And I could use shatter through limited wish. It would eat XP, but that's not much of a problem. Can you use limited wish to wish for an empowerd shatter?

BTW I like the idea of handle humanoid :) My DM is all for useing abilities creative. So that might even work :)

Is 3rd party allowed?

[VerinBlod]

Is 3rd party allowed?

Nope not allowed.

Would Veil of undeath help against the trap the soul ability? Or is it just pumping our fort saves?

[Captnq]

Fight fire with fire.

Get a dragon familiar.
Give him a dracolich potion.
Take the next step and turn him into a demilich.
Send in your demilich familar to go fight the demilich
???
profit!

[sleepyphoenixx]

Just retrieving an item shouldn't be too much of a problem.
If you have someone with high hide & move silently get him a collar of umbral metamorphosis (for HipS), stack some stealth boni (Dex increase, size decrease, spells like Forestfold) and have him sneak in and get it.
You could also buy a Shirt of Wraith Stalking (MIC), cast Pass without Trace (from a scroll if necessary) and be practically undetectable to the Demilich and any undead minions it has.

[VerinBlod]

Just retrieving an item shouldn't be too much of a problem.
If you have someone with high hide & move silently get him a collar of umbral metamorphosis (for HipS), stack some stealth boni (Dex increase, size decrease, spells like Forestfold) and have him sneak in and get it.
You could also buy a Shirt of Wraith Stalking (MIC), cast Pass without Trace (from a scroll if necessary) and be practically undetectable to the Demilich and any undead minions it has.

Yeah that might actually be the best way to go about it. Thanks!

[Vaz]

Thanks guys!
The demilich will probably not be played to it's full strength. And we know it's way above our challenge rating. Knowing this DM he will not make it a no win situation.
The lich is being occupied with other pressing matters. We only have to get into it's lair to retrieve an item. So if we can avoid a confrontation that would be great. So superior invis will help in that regard. Still need something against true seeing.

And I could use shatter through limited wish. It would eat XP, but that's not much of a problem. Can you use limited wish to wish for an empowerd shatter?

BTW I like the idea of handle humanoid :) My DM is all for useing abilities creative. So that might even work :)

I meant you could use Limited Wish for Psychic Reformation, to allow you to choose your Feats and Skills again. It's not explicit, but you may be able to choose your chosen school again, or failing that, you can use the retraining rules presented in PHB2, but that requires down time.

Do you have ranks in UMD? If not, purchase some Cross-class through a Limited Wish PsyRef (or locate a Psion capable of doing such), but it's not really worth changing out Evocation. That way you can quite easily activate a Wand or Staff of such a spell. However, for Shatter, it's a 2nd level spell with a +2 Metamagic added on, leaving it within the 4 level limit of Limited Wish. However, you're probably better off using that Limited Wish to give you Reserves of Strength, a feat from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (still 1st party, though). The feat lets you bypass the normal level limits on the spell - so Shatter is not limited to 10d6 (or 10d6*1.5 in the case of an Empowered), it is simply CLd6 with no maximum.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Why would you use Shatter? It's half damage, fort save for another half AND the Demilich has sonic resistance 20. Unless you stack on tons of metamagic you might as well throw pebbles at it.

If you absolutely have to do direct damage you're better off using Orb of Force, which ignores magic immunity because it's SR:no and the Demilich isn't resistant/immune to. You're still going to have trouble hitting since almost all the Demilichs AC is touch AC. And that's ignoring any kind of offensive on it's part.

A properly optimized party at the OPs level could take it down without too much trouble, provided the DM doesn't play it on the same level of optimization. If you actually play it like the centuries old, superhumanly intelligent, absolutely unscrupulous epic spellcaster it is you won't even get near it. And don't even start on finding a properly hidden phylactery.

Assuming low- to mid optimization any kind of direct combat is still suicide unless the DM plays it like a creature with Int 4 instead of Int 39.

[Vaz]

And deals half damage on top of that. So instead of Save half/no save full, it's save quarter/no save half.

As a CL of 16 even with Reserves of Strength, that's dealing 16d6, or 3.5 average roll, so 48, halved to 24, with Sonic Resistance 20 down to 4, and that's on a failed save. On a passed save, no damage is done whatsoever on average rolls.

[olelia]

Why would you use Shatter? It's half damage, fort save for another half AND the Demilich has sonic resistance 20. Unless you stack on tons of metamagic you might as well throw pebbles at it.

If you absolutely have to do direct damage you're better off using Orb of Force, which ignores magic immunity because it's SR:no and the Demilich isn't resistant/immune to. You're still going to have trouble hitting since almost all the Demilichs AC is touch AC. And that's ignoring any kind of offensive on it's part.

A properly optimized party at the OPs level could take it down without too much trouble, provided the DM doesn't play it on the same level of optimization. If you actually play it like the centuries old, superhumanly intelligent, absolutely unscrupulous epic spellcaster it is you won't even get near it. And don't even start on finding a properly hidden phylactery.

Assuming low- to mid optimization any kind of direct combat is still suicide unless the DM plays it like a creature with Int 4 instead of Int 39.

Unfortuntaely Demi-Liches don't have "infinite" SR. They have flat out immunity to spells.


Magic Immunity (Ex)

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.

[sleepyphoenixx]

And deals half damage on top of that. So instead of Save half/no save full, it's save quarter/no save half.

As a CL of 16 even with Reserves of Strength, that's dealing 16d6, or 3.5 average roll, so 48, halved to 24, with Sonic Resistance 20 down to 4, and that's on a failed save. On a passed save, no damage is done whatsoever on average rolls.

So why would you use it? And actually spend resources to do so?
You're better off hiring a somewhat competent charger if you don't have one and buff him as much as possible to hopefully one-hit kill the Demilich in a surprise round.
Even then you still have to find the phylactery because you almost certainly don't want it looking for revenge a few days later.


Unfortuntaely Demi-Liches don't have "infinite" SR. They have flat out immunity to spells.
Doesn't matter. It's an instantaneous conjuration effect so the only defense is not being hit or immunity to force.

[VerinBlod]

So why would you use it? And actually spend resources to do so?
You're better off hiring a somewhat competent charger if you don't have one and buff him as much as possible to hopefully one-hit kill the Demilich in a surprise round.
Even then you still have to find the phylactery because you almost certainly don't want it looking for revenge a few days later.


Doesn't matter. It's an instantaneous conjuration effect so the only defense is not being hit or immunity to force.

DM probably rules that orb of force and other instantaneus conjuration effects work. I do have orb of force in my spellbook. And with polhymorphing in a high dex form with true strike and using a scroll of divine power might help in landing that touch AC. But than we still have to deal with the trap the soul ability, unless we get a surprise round.

I still believe the best way is to go in unnoticed and get the item. But it's good to know that there are ways to battle the demilich. And as mentioned before it will not be played to full strength.

[sleepyphoenixx]

DM probably rules that orb of force and other instantaneus conjuration effects work. I do have orb of force in my spellbook. And with polhymorphing in a high dex form with true strike and using a scroll of divine power might help in landing that touch AC. But than we still have to deal with the trap the soul ability, unless we get a surprise round.

I still believe the best way is to go in unnoticed and get the item. But it's good to know that there are ways to battle the demilich. And as mentioned before it will not be played to full strength.

The problem with that approach is that you need quite a bit of metamagic stacking to get a one hit kill, hope you get lucky and hit (even with True Strike that's not certain), hope the DL doesn't use long-term buffs or contingencies and survive whatever minions it has around.

And an epic spellcaster that doesn't actually use any spells is so far from "not played at full strength" that it's not even the same monster anymore. I can buy someone sneaking in and stealing something, barely. But playing the DL in a manner that makes him defeatable by a non-optimized ECL16 party is going a bit far imo. You can get a better effect by using a standard lich and actually using it's abilities to give the players a challenge.
Well, it's up to your DM. I'll stop ranting now. :smalltongue:

[VerinBlod]

And an epic spellcaster that doesn't actually use any spells is so far from "not played at full strength" that it's not even the same monster anymore. I can buy someone sneaking in and stealing something, barely. But playing the DL in a manner that makes him defeatable by a non-optimized ECL16 party is going a bit far imo. You can get a better effect by using a standard lich and actually using it's abilities to give the players a challenge.
Well, it's up to your DM. I'll stop ranting now. :smalltongue:

I see your point! And agree with you there, but knowing our DM he will give us a good run for our money :)

[Vaz]

So why would you use it? And actually spend resources to do so?
You're better off hiring a somewhat competent charger if you don't have one and buff him as much as possible to hopefully one-hit kill the Demilich in a surprise round.
Even then you still have to find the phylactery because you almost certainly don't want it looking for revenge a few days later.
I wasn't the one who brought it up. I simply provided a way to do so if he really wanted, and then also the reasoning as to why it would be bad to do so.

[Captnq]

Craft contingency: Dispel Evil (1 hundred times) and one True Strike
Trigger: When I Shout, "DIE, DEMILICH!"

Result: I get a huge buff to hit. For the next 10 rounds or so I do 3d6 damage x 100 save for half, just as soon as I make a hit.

Or spell phylactery if you can't afford the feat.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Craft contingency: Dispel Evil (1 hundred times) and one True Strike
Trigger: When I Shout, "DIE, DEMILICH!"

Result: I get a huge buff to hit. For the next 10 rounds or so I do 3d6 damage x 100 save for half, just as soon as I make a hit.

Or spell phylactery if you can't afford the feat.

Funny as that would be, Craft Contingent Spell has a limit of 1 contingent spell per HD and casting the same spell 100 times doesn't stack, it overwrites.

[Captnq]

Funny as that would be, Craft Contingent Spell has a limit of 1 contingent spell per HD and casting the same spell 100 times doesn't stack, it overwrites.

Nope. Go read Dispel Evil. It's an attack, not a buff. It has a duration until the attack is triggered. THAT'S what lets it stack. It's not like spellflower or holding a touch attack spell. And there is no limit to spell phylactery, just scrolls and time. Or Shanthalar's Delicate Disk, although that is the highest form of cheese. I could rule the multiverse with Shanthalar's Delicate Disk and a 10th level artificer.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Nope. Go read Dispel Evil. It's an attack, not a buff. It has a duration until the attack is triggered. THAT'S what lets it stack. It's not like spellflower or holding a touch attack spell. And there is no limit to spell phylactery, just scrolls and time. Or Shanthalar's Delicate Disk, although that is the highest form of cheese. I could rule the multiverse with Shanthalar's Delicate Disk and a 10th level artificer.

It's a buff that can be discharged to attack. You cast it on yourself. It has a duration until you discharge. If you cast a second one before discharging the first it will renew the duration and that's it, by my interpretation.

Even if you can cast it directly on a Demilich as a touch attack (which isn't really documented anywhere afaik) you can't use it in a contingency since it wouldn't affect you in that case.

You can't have it both ways. It's either a buff (and thus non-stacking but usable with contingency) or an attack (no contingency).
Spell Phylactery has the same restriction (must target you).
Shattering a Delicate Disk is also explicitly a standard action, so you can't trigger more than one in a single action.

[Captnq]

It's a buff that can be discharged to attack. You cast it on yourself. It has a duration until you discharge. If you cast a second one before discharging the first it will renew the duration and that's it, by my interpretation.

Even if you can cast it directly on a Demilich as a touch attack (which isn't really documented anywhere afaik) you can't use it in a contingency since it wouldn't affect you in that case.

You can't have it both ways. It's either a buff (and thus non-stacking but usable with contingency) or an attack (no contingency).
Spell Phylactery has the same restriction (must target you).
Shattering a Delicate Disk is also explicitly a standard action, so you can't trigger more than one in a single action.

Target is YOU and a TOUCHED EVIL CREATURE.

So it lingers on you for 1/round a level.

The spell itself does no damage. The spell touching a demilich causes damage. It's like an allergic reaction. Because the original spell does not cause damage, they never felt the need to explain that it extends the duration, or only the latest casting applies, which is the default in many spells, but not in this one. Not in the spell, doesn't apply. You might think that RAI is that, but by RAW, no. And if the DM is sending these guys to the slaughter, I have NO bones about offering every rule bending suggestion I can think of.

This is a Cloud of Knives situation. They forgot to include text saying you can't cast it multiple times on yourself because nobody would ever want to do that, UNLESS you are fighting a demilich.


Edit:

The disk stores an imbued spell indefinitely until it is shattered (a standard action requiring only 1 point of damage or a DC 5 Strength check).

Until it is shattered. So, if I have a pile of them and cast fireball on them, only one breaks?

[ArcaneGlyph]

1. Throw a portable hole into a bag of holding or vice versa, under the litch.
2. Hope it doesn't have planeshift memorized for the day.
3. Find is Phylactry and waste it before it gets back.
4. Loot all it's high level op magic doo-dads to use against it.
5. Cross fingers and kill litch?

[atemu1234]

I'm in favor of summoning something, maybe a fiendish T-rex, to distract the demilich. While that happens, place a portable hole/portal (the one that leads to another plane) beneath it, preferably to some undisclosed location in the nine hells or the abyss, and having the T-rex tackle it through. Maybe into the court of Orcus or Asmodeus.

[TheMooch]

I've been thinking it over. I think a standard mailman build can beat a demilich.

1)
You have to go first. you probably won't survive a single round with them so this is very important. A dex of 14-16, +6dex item, humming bird familiar, imp initiative gives an initiative bonus of 13-14. This gives a 75% chance that the player goes first (this is assuming both cast nerveskitter or celerity which means its back to initiative to determine who actually goes first)

2)
You now have one action to kill him. You should already have moment of prescience cast on you. Then let lose a maximized twined etc etc orb that will do way more damage than the demilich has hp. This does requires the ruling that instantaneous conjurations that have SR:no are not subject to the demiliches magic immunity. You let lose Moment of Prescience for a bonus to your to hit roll which is 1d20+10(BAB)+25(MoP)+5(dex) and this beats the demiliches touch flatfooted AC of 43, 85% of the time

This gives us a total chance of beating the demilich of 63.8% of the time.

Now can we up this? If we take the marshal aura that improve dexterity rolls rather than the SR options (which with assay spell resistance and true casting it isn't an issue) this ups our initiative roll to have a 99.3% chance to go first (assuming a charisma of 34 (18base+5levels+5inherent+6item) at level 20). This brings our total chance of success to 84.4%

So an 84.4% chance of a single level 20 character to defeat a CR 29 monster. That's pretty good. Now if the demilich was actually intelligent and had better feats, epic spellcasting for example. It will be nearly impossible to kill

[VerinBlod]

I've been thinking it over. I think a standard mailman build can beat a demilich.

1)
You have to go first. you probably won't survive a single round with them so this is very important. A dex of 14-16, +6dex item, humming bird familiar, imp initiative gives an initiative bonus of 13-14. This gives a 75% chance that the player goes first (this is assuming both cast nerveskitter or celerity which means its back to initiative to determine who actually goes first)

2)
You now have one action to kill him. You should already have moment of prescience cast on you. Then let lose a maximized twined etc etc orb that will do way more damage than the demilich has hp. This does requires the ruling that instantaneous conjurations that have SR:no are not subject to the demiliches magic immunity. You let lose Moment of Prescience for a bonus to your to hit roll which is 1d20+10(BAB)+25(MoP)+5(dex) and this beats the demiliches touch flatfooted AC of 43, 85% of the time

This gives us a total chance of beating the demilich of 63.8% of the time.

Now can we up this? If we take the marshal aura that improve dexterity rolls rather than the SR options (which with assay spell resistance and true casting it isn't an issue) this ups our initiative roll to have a 99.3% chance to go first (assuming a charisma of 34 (18base+5levels+5inherent+6item) at level 20). This brings our total chance of success to 84.4%

So an 84.4% chance of a single level 20 character to defeat a CR 29 monster. That's pretty good. Now if the demilich was actually intelligent and had better feats, epic spellcasting for example. It will be nearly impossible to kill

Going first shouldn't be such a problem init mod is + 17. Problem is more that my build isn't geared towards delivering damage. So I could swap some feats for this fight but I don't know if it will be enough. And I think that if the demilich is played anywhere near it's potential power that I'm better off sneaking in and get the items. So I think that's the option that we're going for.

[Vaz]

The demilich might have Celerity prepped. You'll want your own to counter that.

[Psyren]

Limitee wish can replicate the effects of 4th level spells and effects of a similar power. If playing as standard psychic transparency, then powers are arguably available for that effect.

Note that Psychic Equivalent, reality revision explicitly stops spells being replicated, and the 3.5 PHB hadn't been written in mind with the 3.5 XPH which hadn't been released so there is that against it.

To lend support to this idea, WotC explicitly allows (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060728a) Limited Wish to mimic Psychic Reformation. (Also, since Bend Reality can mimic Psyreform, this would also be allowed under the "produce any effect in line" clause since nearly anything Bend Reality can do should be allowed to LW as well.)

[VerinBlod]

To lend support to this idea, WotC explicitly allows (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060728a) Limited Wish to mimic Psychic Reformation. (Also, since Bend Reality can mimic Psyreform, this would also be allowed under the "produce any effect in line" clause since nearly anything Bend Reality can do should be allowed to LW as well.)

DM rules it this way. So that would help. So I could swap some feats for feats that would improve my damage ouput with orb of force. I could probably lose 4 feats for this encounter. Any ideas for what I could swap them? Thinking about taking empower, maximize spell. Maybe twin spelland arcane thesis. I do have metamagic scool focus and Quicken spell.

An empowered, maximized, chained orb of force spell would cost me lvl 9 spell slot if my calculations are correct. +1 from empower, + 2 from maximize, +3 from chain spell thanks to arcane thesis and lowering that by 1 thanks to metamagic school focus.

Hmm is this correct beacause I don't have lvl 9 slots yet.

[Starbuck_II]

Small chance, but a net would easily wrap up a head, right?